Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Avaris]

Wow, not even an attempt to hide it. That's bold of them.

So all I'm hearing from you is that as a new player I have to just shut up and accept that this game is broken, the company is evil, the community is toxic, and I'm not allowed to have opinions that would keep me coming back. That I have to either quit whining and buy an entire 2,000 point army at once for full price without ever having played the game a single time or give up entirely, because the game isn't for everybody to enjoy, its only for the elite players.

It's attitudes like this that kill games, and if this how you treat anyone who wants to join in the fun without going broke to do it, then I want no part in it. This is not healthy. This is gatekeeping at its worst.

It’s worth saying that, for the most part, the games aren’t as broken, the company isn’t as evil, and the community isn’t as toxic as certain posters here make it out to be. Are there problems? Yes, absolutely. It’s a thing that exists in a capitalist economy after all. But it’s not utterly irredeemable, and there are definitely ways to play that aren’t just buying a 2,000 point army straight off. It’s worth talking to your game group about what other options there might be for playing games without such an immediate up front buy in.

Edit: regarding the price rise, there’s an interesting question over whether it is better to ‘hide’ it, or say it outright. For years GW did stealth price rises, last year they gave everyone a month notice of exactly what was going up in price, to allow purchases prior to that (which is also a problem in itself as it plays on FOMO of course). Price rises always sting of course, but for the most part GW stuff tracks inflation (and in some cases are cheaper, I did the maths on White Dwarf recently, and it is currently less expensive than it was in 1998, while being probably twice as long in terms of vontent.)

[Cheesegear]

Is it because they're updating everything to plastic and aren't using the cheaper metals anymore?

Absolutely not.
It's because 'prices haven't moved in a while'. Direct quote. Be happy we didn't raise the prices sooner. But now that it's global recession-time, we're definitely raising prices!

The materials aren't the expensive part of manufacturing. The design and manufacturing process, is. Which is why it's so baffling that GW makes 'limited' models at all. If you're going to spend a few dozen grand on building a production line, you should want to maintain that for as long as possible.

Unfortunately, I think GW doesn't know how long 'as long as possible', is. Hence the limited manufacturing.

Sometimes I feel like I got suckered into a dying game with all the doom saying going around, and that I should just not bother. But, it's what my friends play, and I like playing with them, so... I don't know.

This is a whole post on it's own. But in short:
The ridiculous pricing, during a global recession, has shafted new players. All of them. If you started 9th Ed. already-having an army. You should've been mostly fine. Starting brand new? From scratch? I couldn't do that again. Even older players looking to start a new army for 9th Ed., can't, because it's just too expensive.

The game is not dying. What's dying, I suppose, is innovation. Is 'playing the game you want to play it.' In my opinion, the meta game of 9th Ed. is the worst I've seen since 5th Ed., 15-odd years ago. I haven't seen such a stale game for a long, long time. What's dying, effectively, is the 'casual game'. For the most part, I blame the internet, and how easy it is to find ways to fix your playstyles and/or your army. There really is, in many cases, 'only one way to play,' and once you figure that out, it's really, really, really hard to un-figure it out. As I said, in order to 'compete', in a very real sense you have to find ways to intentionally lose games. Because the current game is so easy to break. You don't have to try to break the game. You just do.

There is a lot of 'wait and see' happening right now, because what we have right now, isn't good. If it was good, we wouldn't be waiting, see? But by this time in 8th Ed., we were well on our way to a vibrant meta that was extremely diverse. 9th Ed. has a lot of potential goodness, and not really a lot of actual goodness.

By March 2018, after 8th Ed. had been out, Razorbacks, Stormravens and G-man had been nerfed into the ground. That problem was solved quickly, because GW had sold all their Razorbacks back in 7th Ed. They weren't making money off of Razorbacks in 8th Ed., because people who wanted them, already had them. So that's a nerf hammer. Solved that problem. Astra Militarum and Craftworlds were dominating the show, with Tyranids close behind (because you could run 5 Hive Tyrants, back then). Blood Angels had hit the ground running. Daemons were potentially shattering the meta (and they would, later on, after people finished building their armies). By March of 2018, we were knee-deep in Custodes' Dawneagle Jetbikes, and Thousand Sons had recently just discovered Tzaangaors. So many choices to make, each with an actually different playstyle - because Maelstrom allowed for that, see?

By March 2021, same time period...Uhh...

Now. Part of this is COVID. That's true. However, that's not the whole story. Because if you pay attention, just look at what has been released:
Necrons, Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Death Guard and Dark Angels

Sense a pattern? The start of 8th Ed. - up until March - wasn't like that. But additionally, one of the design goals of 9th Ed. was to bring Space Marines - and their specific playstyle - back to the fore. If you can't sell someone a horde, jack up the price on elite models.

I feel like I should be concerned that my army currently has units that are "not worth having," specifically wyches and a venom. But then again, we're getting a new codex in less than a week, so that could change (you know, if I can find one.)

As you can no doubt probably see, we're all waiting for Drukhari. Because Drukhari is the book that's going to break the pattern.
And if it breaks pattern, but doesn't work...That's one of the biggest red flags I could possibly think of for the next six months.
More waiting, more seeing. "One day it will be good."

Everyone arguing about whether or not the game is healthy is all the proof we need that the game is not healthy.

That's actually not wrong.

Competitive versus casual play

That's been an arugment since day dot. But, to be fair, the only other time it was this bad, was the tail-ed of 5th Ed. before Necrons came out and fixed the edition...And then the edition was over. Say what you will about that.

There's always something to argue about, and it makes us all look bad.

In a very real way, that's just life. Unfortunately, we're having this argument on the internet. None of anyone actually needs to be friends when it's over. Which is both the internet's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness. No-one is people.

Discussions in person are always more civil, and ideally less Doomer. As much as I hate 9th Ed., I'm still playing it, regularly. Trying to find a 'way to play' that I like. Unfortunately I only have Space Marines, Space Marines and more Space Marines. Which the edition only encourages. So I can't find a way to make the game fun for my opponents, because I don't have any bad units to make the game more fair. In order to lose games, I have to play like a potato. Because the edition has just strengthened all the models I own for literally no reason.

40k is the meta of my friend group, so 40k it is.

At least I've convinced some of my meta to move towards 40KRPGs. We can still use some models without playing 40K. But we still keep playing 40K - my guess is sunk cost.

[LansXero]

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-dru...hammer-review/

Im sort of surprised it wasn't posted before. Anyways:

> Ravagers are out due to not Core
> Agents is nerfed to trash
> Poison can't beat transhuman so whatever
> Realspace Raid is a wonky rule that may or may not be enough.

Its very marines-like, with their upgraded HQs and Retinues; statlines are still pretty pathetic and trying to make wyches into discount harlequins doesnt make sense since Harlequins already exist. I do have the scan of the whole thing, but its a photo scan (spanish, so weird angles everywhere), not the neat OCR stuff Im used to, so I feel too lazy to go through it in detail.

[Avaris]

@Cheesegear, I’m looking forward to your take on Drukhari. Goonhammer has a review up, and are very positive, but I don’t think they are evaluating it against the problems you talk about so much. It sounds like it can make a list that feels very Drukhari, the question is whether it is competitive.

[Blackhawk748]

GW Revenue (2020): £269.7 million (2020)

Mantic total assets: 2,689,984.00 US$

Not related, I know, but with 2020's income alone GW could buy 100 Mantics. Im sure my math is super wrong and I hope someone better at finance can set me straight but the point is they are nowhere near in the same league, by a huge margin. So whatever they do keeps them tiny so why should anyone emulate that?

They're a company that's all of a decade old, tops, being compared, favorably, in many respects, to a 40 year old IP giant.

It doesn't matter that GW made all that, cuz I'm willing to bet the lion's share of that revenue wasn't from the Tabletop, all of Mantic's money is, and they are really good at getting customer loyalty.

GW? I haven't bought anything from GW (that wasn't a video game) since 7th edition, and that was just the Ad Mech (half of which was from Forgeworld anyway) My Sisters were from Ebay as were a bunch of Orks.

Meanwhile, in Fantasy verse, I bought a bunch of stuff from Mantic over the past several years. In fact, every Christmas I buy myself their mystery box to see what weird neat stuff I get out of it and I'm always happy with it. I got a bunch of Succubi and Trolls last time, which were great for DnD.

Like, if I were to bet on which tabletop game is gonna die in the next decade, I'd actually put it on one of GWs. Ya, Kings of War may just hand out with Hail Ceasar nad Bolt Action in that it's not some ginormous beast of a game, but that's fine, because it's still there and still getting updated, just like those two and it's a much better game all around.

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-dru...hammer-review/

Im sort of surprised it wasn't posted before. Anyways:

> Ravagers are out due to not Core
> Agents is nerfed to trash
> Poison can't beat transhuman so whatever
> Realspace Raid is a wonky rule that may or may not be enough.

Its very marines-like, with their upgraded HQs and Retinues; statlines are still pretty pathetic and trying to make wyches into discount harlequins doesnt make sense since Harlequins already exist. I do have the scan of the whole thing, but its a photo scan (spanish, so weird angles everywhere), not the neat OCR stuff Im used to, so I feel too lazy to go through it in detail.

Agents is also free so... there's that? But ya, I agree, that's not a good Strat, it's just annoying.

Black Heart: +1 LD (don't care, its ****) get to use next rounds Power From Pain (wooo?) and get to re-roll 1 To Hit each time a unit shoots or fights. I honestly don't know why Goonhammer rates this as the best of the Kabals? Yes, the new Power From Pain is a pure upgrade but I don't think it's enough to make this the best.

Poisoned Tongue: +1 on Poisoned weapons to a max of 2+. Yay? I'm ignoring the Combat Attrition part cuz no one cares.

Flayed Skull: Wow... that is terrible. Nerf the move buff AND take away re-roll 1s on Rapid fire and get... NOTHING. Just go **** yourself. At least the Warlord trait is always on now and the Relic is a 4++? Wooo?

Obidian Rose: +6 Range to Rapid Fire, Assault and HEavy Weapons is fine, and now they get to Re-Roll one to wound each time a unit fights or shoots. Thats nice. Not amazing, but hey, it's better than Flayed Skulls by miles. The rest is... blah.

Custom Kabals: Don't have a proper list in front of me, so can't really judge but hey, extra hit on 6 and extra Ap on 6 isn't awful?

Don't have the desire to look through the rest but the Kabals aren't looking great. Then again, I'm an Ork, Ad Mech, Sisters player, not a Deldar player, so take all of that with a bucket of salt.

[LansXero]

They're a company that's all of a decade old, tops, being compared, favorably, in many respects, to a 40 year old IP giant.

It doesn't matter that GW made all that, cuz I'm willing to bet the lion's share of that revenue wasn't from the Tabletop, all of Mantic's money is, and they are really good at getting customer loyalty.

Its one year's revenue vs the total sum of all of Mantic's assets. So in one year GW makes 100 times what Mantic is worth, all together, after whatever it is they did for their entire life.

Like, if I were to bet on which tabletop game is gonna die in the next decade, I'd actually put it on one of GWs. Ya, Kings of War may just hand out with Hail Ceasar nad Bolt Action in that it's not some ginormous beast of a game, but that's fine, because it's still there and still getting updated, just like those two and it's a much better game all around.

Which isnt the point; the discussion is market practices and the end goal of those is money. What is or isnt a better ruleset is another topic. Also, the thing with GW is that its not above self correcting. A slew of smaller, niche games held their pieces of the market at the end of 7th, justly so because late 7E was stale garbage. So GW graced us with a full unit overhaul and the eventual beauty of 8E, and Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine, etc started to shrink away into obscurity while GW went on to make record profits. Because, and this is a truism, it takes money to make money and having 100 times your competitor's worth in revenue each year gives you a ton of room to pivot and readjust things.

[AdmiralCheez]

They wont provide new players with good starters at affordable prices. KNF was way above the current selection, and is now gone to the mists of time. Even the basice 'start collecting' are gone, replaced by pricier Combat Patrols based on a farce that 500 points is a valid game size.

My point earlier was that 500 point games are a valid game size. I've played several of them, successfully played them to completion, and had fun doing it. I'd say that means it's valid. I'm not trying to tell everyone that it's the only way to play, just that it's a viable option for those who don't have time or models for a full game. That's all.

I'm telling you pretty much the same thing I'd tell anyone new at the store: Research, plan, buy responsibly and dont get carried away by the hype or how cool the mini looks.

What do you think I've been doing with researching and hoping to get the box sets? The box sets have what I want and need, and are priced considerably less. Buying the box set is the responsible buy for me, but it's hard to do because scalpers buy them all up in 13 minutes, take them apart, and sell them piece by piece on the resale market. I've been burned by the resale market before, and I'm not doing that again.

Take a hard look inwards and check your available time, commitments and disposable income. The game IS expensive. It wont ever be less expensive, you can accept that and build up to something on whatever timetable best suits you, or you can walk away.

I've been doing that. It started with a start collecting box over a year ago, and I've bought maybe one more unit every other month since then. That's a timetable that suits my budget. But according to you, my small games with the models I have are not valid, so am I wasting my time? Should I just be waiting until I have 2,000 points?

Complaining, whishing, etc. is unwelcoime because its unproductive, I cant change the prices at which I buy things, GW wont change the contents, availability or the prices at which they sell me things, so all you are really doing is consuming energy for no gain.

I know you have no control over that, and I'm not expecting anything to change, but am I not allowed to vent my frustration? People seem to vent all the time here, so I thought it was allowed.

I then follow this up by doing the same I do here. No codex? Use battlescribe, maybe buy datacards or use 1d4chan / wahapedia. No minis? we have a full 2k army of space marines donated by other players, and 2k points worth of guard including an octoblade you can loan.

I use battlescribe all the time. It's the only thing I do use really for unit stats. I mean, it took me months to even just buy the core rules, because I was tired of always asking people what X rule meant, or when Y rule comes into play. There are only so many youtube videos one can try to learn from before it becomes easier to just get the book.

And maybe I picked a bad time to pick up the game, but during the pandemic, no one is sharing models. Store policies near me forbid it. And even if they didn't, I'd feel weird messing with someone else's models for fear of breaking them by mistake. That one is on me, though.

Please, tell me again what a horrible gatekeeper I am, me who points people with small budgets to 3D printing services for bits and let people pick up their recasted junk at the store I pay monthly for.

Maybe it's the insistence that my current way of playing isn't real, that the "only" way to really play is a huge money sink, and games take hours that we may not have. Maybe it's that instead of sympathizing with frustrations, you respond by saying it's a waste of time and that nothing ever changes. You could have said something like, "yeah, it sucks, but there's not much we can do about it," and that would be fine. Instead you came at me with, "GW doesn't care what you think, and they shouldn't, so don't bother us with your opinion."

Attitude is a huge factor, and if the overall tone of a community is negative and hostile, then why would anyone want to take part? It may not be deliberate, and it may be the brutal truth, but it's still off-putting.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wow, not even an attempt to hide it. That's bold of them.

Games Workshop has annual rounds of price hikes every June right at the end of the fiscal year. They don't hit the whole range at once; they raise some things one year then different things the next year, etc. But they always do it, every year. It's fairly common knowledge at this point; they gain nothing from trying to hide it.

[Blackhawk748]

And maybe I picked a bad time to pick up the game, but during the pandemic, no one is sharing models. Store policies near me forbid it. And even if they didn't, I'd feel weird messing with someone else's models for fear of breaking them by mistake. That one is on me, though.

You sadly did. 9th is a pretty awful time to start playing, rules issues not withstanding, as it is really looking like a rehash of 5th ed, which as the stalest garbage GW ever made. Like, 7th pissed me right off, but at least it wasn't stale.

It just had hard tiers of Codexes.

Maybe it's the insistence that my current way of playing isn't real, that the "only" way to really play is a huge money sink, and games take hours that we may not have. Maybe it's that instead of sympathizing with frustrations, you respond by saying it's a waste of time and that nothing ever changes. You could have said something like, "yeah, it sucks, but there's not much we can do about it," and that would be fine. Instead you came at me with, "GW doesn't care what you think, and they shouldn't, so don't bother us with your opinion."

Attitude is a huge factor, and if the overall tone of a community is negative and hostile, then why would anyone want to take part? It may not be deliberate, and it may be the brutal truth, but it's still off-putting.

Trust me, I do, as do the rest of us. Lans is a "results" guy from what I've seen, and venting doesn't get those, so he does what he does. The rest of us will happily agree with you and have a beer over it.

Also, if you like small games, go give Heralds of Ruin Kill Team a once over. I last played it in 7th, and never got a chance to check out their 8th ed update, but it was fun and let you do silly things like run entire teams of Terminators, or put Necron Lords on Tomb Blades with 3++, 4+ Not!FnP and IWND.

Don't do that last one, it's legit broken in that format and we made a game out of trying to figure out a list that could reliably kill it AND actually have enough left to win. The answer was 2 KMK Mek Guns and all the Ork Slugga Boyz I could pack into 200 hundred points.

So, baring a (small) number of things that may need to be Gentleman Banned, it's a great game that lets you do silly stuff and even if the game was an unbalanced mess (and it wasn't the last time I looked) it's like a 45 minute game. SO no huge loss.

[Renegade Paladin]

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-dru...hammer-review/

Im sort of surprised it wasn't posted before. Anyways:

> Ravagers are out due to not Core
> Agents is nerfed to trash
> Poison can't beat transhuman so whatever
> Realspace Raid is a wonky rule that may or may not be enough.

Its very marines-like, with their upgraded HQs and Retinues; statlines are still pretty pathetic and trying to make wyches into discount harlequins doesnt make sense since Harlequins already exist. I do have the scan of the whole thing, but its a photo scan (spanish, so weird angles everywhere), not the neat OCR stuff Im used to, so I feel too lazy to go through it in detail.

A friend of mine who's on the General Staff team on the U.S. East Coast was complaining to me literally this morning that all his Bladeguard were just waiting around to fight last because that's just something the entire Dark Eldar army does now. *Shrug*

[AdmiralCheez]

You sadly did. 9th is a pretty awful time to start playing, rules issues not withstanding, as it is really looking like a rehash of 5th ed, which as the stalest garbage GW ever made. Like, 7th pissed me right off, but at least it wasn't stale.

It just had hard tiers of Codexes.

Well, that's unfortunate. But hey, as long as my group keeps having fun with it, I guess that's all that matters! At least I'll have a head start on knowing how it works for when the next edition comes out.

Trust me, I do, as do the rest of us. Lans is a "results" guy from what I've seen, and venting doesn't get those, so he does what he does. The rest of us will happily agree with you and have a beer over it.

I kinda figured as much, though it's nice to hear someone say it. I apologize if my venting has been done before over and over, and people are just tired of hearing it, knowing nothing is going to change. I'll try to hold back going forward.

Also, if you like small games, go give Heralds of Ruin Kill Team a once over. I last played it in 7th, and never got a chance to check out their 8th ed update, but it was fun and let you do silly things like run entire teams of Terminators, or put Necron Lords on Tomb Blades with 3++, 4+ Not!FnP and IWND.

Don't do that last one, it's legit broken in that format and we made a game out of trying to figure out a list that could reliably kill it AND actually have enough left to win. The answer was 2 KMK Mek Guns and all the Ork Slugga Boyz I could pack into 200 hundred points.

So, baring a (small) number of things that may need to be Gentleman Banned, it's a great game that lets you do silly stuff and even if the game was an unbalanced mess (and it wasn't the last time I looked) it's like a 45 minute game. SO no huge loss.

Nice! I'll look into it, and see if I can convince my group to give it a shot. I do like faster paced games, and not having to carry around a lot of stuff to play them.

[Blackhawk748]

Nice! I'll look into it, and see if I can convince my group to give it a shot. I do like faster paced games, and not having to carry around a lot of stuff to play them.

Its also Free which is great, and you legit get to use your current collection as pretty much everything in the Codex is available. Well, within reason obviously. Like, you won't get to use a Pain Engine, but Wracks are probably legal.

Like, Orks and Imp Guard get to use Kans and Scout Sentinels in their base lists whereas other vehicles are in the vehicle expansion. But it was a fun time letting you go beyond what GW Kill Team did or still does, cuz it is a different game.

[AdmiralCheez]

Its also Free which is great, and you legit get to use your current collection as pretty much everything in the Codex is available. Well, within reason obviously. Like, you won't get to use a Pain Engine, but Wracks are probably legal.

Like, Orks and Imp Guard get to use Kans and Scout Sentinels in their base lists whereas other vehicles are in the vehicle expansion. But it was a fun time letting you go beyond what GW Kill Team did or still does, cuz it is a different game.

I'm looking at their site now, and it sounds like fun! Definitely easier to convince others to try it if the rules are free! Even better is that they're still updating. Like, there was an update about a week ago. I appreciate that in a game.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

{Scrubbed}

[Blackhawk748]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Cheez was the one playing under 1k, I'm the one talking about Mantic.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Cheez was the one playing under 1k, I'm the one talking about Mantic.

My mistake. My point stands though.

[LansXero]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Allright, it was a tad much. But, the reason why I discount 500 / 1000 points games is because they will stop working at some point. Because statlines, costs and strats are all balanced at a higher point value, options exists to bring out / withstand twice the firepower or more than what 500 / 1000 points lists can bring; you can shoot 600 - 700 points into a single Blightshroud unit and end up not killing a single model; in 2k thats a bad result but there are 1300 points left to use, in 1000 you only have HQs left to use.

So at some point it will break, and their supporters will go surprised_pikachu_face and try to homebrew fix it: custom FOC, custom bans, custom rules, custom missions, etc. Which they either should've done from the start, OR accept they're playing an already broken unbalanced alterna-mode which wont ever be balanced around and spare themselves the frustration.

But I will totally agree on the unnecessary agression and I apologize; however, claiming to care about the 'health of the hobby' requires, imho, an objective look at its mechanics, currently existing options and a willingness to accept not all missions, armies, lists or formats will ever be equal, so its more about finding a palatable degree of broken than trying for the elusive 'balance'. And this cant be informed by purchase habits or price mechanics as thats an entirely separate factor.

For example: Lelith requires you to pay an scalper a premium for a model... thats not even good. She eats up a master succubus slot, is not a duelist, is not a trash clearer and costs more than an actual Master Succubus with a better load out. So if you want to pay2lose, by all means.

[AdmiralCheez]

But I will totally agree on the unnecessary agression and I apologize; however, claiming to care about the 'health of the hobby' requires, imho, an objective look at its mechanics, currently existing options and a willingness to accept not all missions, armies, lists or formats will ever be equal, so its more about finding a palatable degree of broken than trying for the elusive 'balance'. And this cant be informed by purchase habits or price mechanics as thats an entirely separate factor.

That's fair. I certainly don't know enough of the game mechanics and other armies to make that kind of call on whether or not it's balanced. I have a few small games of anecdotal experience that says it can be a fair game at small point values, but that's just my experience, and not indicative of the whole game. And you're right, the overall "health" of the hobby does have to factor in the state of the rules in addition to everything else. From what it sounds like, there is much to be desired.

For example: Lelith requires you to pay an scalper a premium for a model... thats not even good. She eats up a master succubus slot, is not a duelist, is not a trash clearer and costs more than an actual Master Succubus with a better load out. So if you want to pay2lose, by all means.

Well, hopefully the new codex fixes that; otherwise a lot of people are going to be disappointed real soon!

[Renegade Paladin]

That's fair. I certainly don't know enough of the game mechanics and other armies to make that kind of call on whether or not it's balanced. I have a few small games of anecdotal experience that says it can be a fair game at small point values, but that's just my experience, and not indicative of the whole game. And you're right, the overall "health" of the hobby does have to factor in the state of the rules in addition to everything else. From what it sounds like, there is much to be desired.

Combat Patrol is fine in young metas where people are just starting out building the cores of their armies. The contents of most of the Combat Patrol boxes are not wildly out of line with the contents of the other Combat Patrol boxes or the older Start Collecting kits (with a couple of exceptions). Where it breaks is people getting the big brick killtastic units that aren't sold in the starter kits. If I roll into a Combat Patrol with, say, this:

Spoiler: TANKS!

Show

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Guard) [31 PL, 500pts] ++

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 195pts]: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Warlord

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Fast Attack +

Hellhounds [6 PL, 100pts]
. Bane Wolf: Heavy Flamer

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 160pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

++ Total: [31 PL, 500pts] ++

Into a pile of Intercessors, what exactly is the other player supposed to do about it? And that's not even the nastiest legal 500 point list I can think of; it's just what I could do - and that says something about the state of the Imperial Guard these days. As noted above, Blightlord Terminators are basically invincible against a small list.

[AdmiralCheez]

Combat Patrol is fine in young metas where people are just starting out building the cores of their armies. The contents of most of the Combat Patrol boxes are not wildly out of line with the contents of the other Combat Patrol boxes or the older Start Collecting kits (with a couple of exceptions). Where it breaks is people getting the big brick killtastic units that aren't sold in the starter kits.

Well, if a person knows that their opponent just has the combat patrol/start collecting sets, and they bring out their biggest guns, that's more a reflection of them, really. But point taken, that's definitely not a balanced game. That's where communicating and being friendly are going to come in, in order to come up with a fair game.

[Squark]

Well, if a person knows that their opponent just has the combat patrol/start collecting sets, and they bring out their biggest guns, that's more a reflection of them, really. But point taken, that's definitely not a balanced game. That's where communicating and being friendly are going to come in, in order to come up with a fair game.

That's valid in some cases, sure. But the guy who bought Adeptus Custodes because it's the cheapest army and they like Gold Armor, or the guy who brought an imperial knight because they like baroque mechas? Still broke the game, but that's not a reflection on them.

There are also going to be cases where some new player is excited about their fancy new centerpiece unit and wants to use it (This is more likely in 1,000 point/Incursion level games), but doesn't have the backbone of an army to support a 2k list where that centerpiece unit is balanced. And terminators are one of those units.

So the issue with small games isn't (just) that people can break them on purpose, but that people can break them by picking the wrong faction, or by picking the wrong unit. And those "wrong" choices are often attractive to people for reasons besides their rules.

I don't want to say small games of 40k are Badwrongfun. But they are a minefield full of potential hurt feelings, and its not always an issue of people being jerks.

[Blackhawk748]

And then there's lists that don't seem broken or too strong, but wind up being weird/hard to handle.

Like, are you aware of how many Orks you can pile into 500 points if you try? How many Gaunts and Gants? A lot, and if you're taking a more "balanced" list, you probably won't have enough shots to stem the tide of bodies before it runs you over.

Now, a horde in 500 is far more manageable than say, someone showing up with 5 Sentinels, but it's more of showing how swingy it can get. If everyone is being "reasonable" (for a given definition of that term) 500 points is fine, but that's you guys all doing a bunch of extra work to make sure it's that way, and some people are doing more as they try to avoid half their book.

[LansXero]

Well, hopefully the new codex fixes that; otherwise a lot of people are going to be disappointed real soon!

This is in the context of the new codex :v

Well, if a person knows that their opponent just has the combat patrol/start collecting sets...

https://www.games-workshop.com/es-ES...Militarum-2017

Spoiler: 500 points of friendly competition

Show

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [28 PL, 3CP, 495pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [3CP]: 1. Combat Patrol (0-50 Total PL / 0-500 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 230pts]: Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons, Relic: Kurov's Aquila, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon, Warlord, WT: Grand Strategist

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 155pts]
. Leman Russ Executioner: Heavy Bolter

++ Total: [28 PL, 3CP, 495pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Get 2 SC, use the comissar bits to try and make a 'drive me closer!' meme commander, done. You have 1 1/2 Commisars left for whatever and 2x 3 man weapon teams if you wanna hit the next bracket. It will absolutely murder the hell out of most Recruit / Elite edition units except for the HQs, but it also gets rolled over by Indomitus units (not sure on points balance there). Anyways, there is nothing inherently assholish about playing the game by its rules, and as you can see even starter vs starter has its own broken meta.

[AdmiralCheez]

I'm sure once I have a big enough collection where I can pick and choose lists for different situations, I will look back at these posts of mine, and laugh. Until then, I'm just going to keep throwing what I have at my enemies and hope it works!

This is in the context of the new codex :v

Oh. Oh, that's not good....

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, if a person knows that their opponent just has the combat patrol/start collecting sets, and they bring out their biggest guns, that's more a reflection of them, really. But point taken, that's definitely not a balanced game. That's where communicating and being friendly are going to come in, in order to come up with a fair game.

Squark is right, it is super easy to do it by mistake. I'm a treadhead. I like tanks; it's why I play Imperial Guard. When I first started, I rolled in and broke the local meta into tiny pieces. Before I started playing in 5th edition, most of the locals were playing infantry Marine lists, with a Dreadnought here and a Rhino there. I showed up with multiple Chimeras full of infantry and a couple of Russes; not a single model on foot in my list. Because of the environment they were playing in before, nobody brought lascannons or meltaguns, which were basically required to deal with tanks back then. So I started playing and just won game after game for a couple of months; I was 5/0 before losing the first time when the first person wised up and bought Devastators. I didn't mean to set off an arms race. The rules of the game at that time heavily favoring vehicles didn't even enter my mind (though in 5th edition, mech was king). I just stumbled into what was, at that time, one of the winning power lists completely by accident.

These days, if I do that, yeah, I'm doing it on purpose (it's why I don't actually do it to new players). But it can totally happen by accident.

Edit: In fact, here it is, the very first army list I ever fielded (tanks run up your points totals quick).

Spoiler

Show

Imperial Guard

1500 points
(1 remaining)

Remaining Choices:
HQ-1
Troops-4
Elites-2
Fast Attack-3
Heavy Support-1

Company Command Squad - 50
-Medi-pack - 30
-Vox-caster - 5
-Carapace Armor - 20
-Regimental Standard - 15
-Master of Ordnance - 30
-Two Bodyguards - 30
-Krak Grenades - 5

Techpriest Enginseer - 45
-Two Servitors - 30

Ratling Squad - 30
-Three additional ratlings - 30

Veteran Squad - 70
-Grenadiers - 30
-Sergeant Power Weapon - 10
-Sergeant Bolt Pistol - 2
-Vox-caster - 5

Veteran Squad - 70
-Forward Sentries -30
-Sergeant Bolt Pistol - 2
-Veteran Autocannon Team - 10
-Vox-Caster - 5
-Three sniper rifles - 15

Leman Russ Squadron - *
-Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150
--Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 20
--Extra Armor - 15
--Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter - 10
-Leman Russ Vanquisher - 155
--Plasma Cannon Sponsons - 40
--Extra Armor - 15
--Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber - 10
-Leman Russ Exterminator - 150
--Heavy Flamer Sponsons - 20
--Extra Armor - 15
--Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter - 10
--Dozer Blade - 10

Ordnance Battery - *
-Basilisk - 125
--Enclosed crew compartment - 15
--Extra Armor - 15
Basilisk - 125
--Enclosed crew compartment - 15
--Extra Armor - 15

This was horribly suboptimal for what it was; I spent stupid amounts of points on marginal wargear, and that was absolutely not the best use of Veterans back then. But it was still too much armor for infantry and anti-infantry lists to deal with.

[Forum Explorer]

Anyways, Goonhammer review as Lans pointed out. Highlights as I see them:

Power from Pain: Actually makes vehicles hilariously decent in CC. 3 Attacks hitting on 3+ at strength 6-7 AP -1 isn't bad. Sure it's not going to wipe a unit, but it's got a decent chance of taking the last wound from a critical model.

Unmodified 6s to wound is +1 AP in the fight phase. Combine this with the Power From Pain chart and you really should be building a melee army. That's your niche.

So long as everything is a Patrol, it costs 0 CP. That's pretty decent if you don't want to do a Real Space Raiders detachment. I'm honestly not too sure about RSRs. It lets you mix and match stratagems and relics, but you are locked into a Kabal obsession instead. Which for a melee army, is going to be Kabal of Black Heart. I mean, Wytch units with Advance and Charge turn 1 has a reach of about 16 Inches + the 2d6 charge. On the much smaller boards, that's basically the entire board. Reavers and Hellions are even faster than that.

Speaking of Wytch cult, you can now pick the same Combat Drug over and over. I'm guessing Wytchs will get +1 Strength or attack most times, while Hellions and Reavers will be +1 T. You can also roll twice, take both, which is tempting. Also there are strats to double the bonus on a unit for a turn/phase.

Anyways faction traits.

Black Heart is the best for melee units, since it gives you access to the Turn 1 Advance and Charge and the earlier +1 to hit in melee. Odds are this is the best for RSRs. Also their ability works on Mandrakes and Incubi. The reroll one miss is also nice for Raiders with Dark Lances, so that's nice too. Agents of Vect is cute, but no longer the power house it was. Still it's a 0CP strat and a slap in the face to Apothecaries. No discount for them!

Poisoned Tongue is a +1 to wound for all your poison weapons, but better since poison ignores minuses to wound. Transhuman trumps it sure, but that just puts you back to your normal wounding. If you want to run a shooty list, 100% this is your best option. The -1 to Combat Attrition is neat, but doesn't work on Marines so more than half the time you won't get a chance to use it. As cool as the leadership shenanigans are, you shouldn't build into it because Space Marines ignore it, and that is almost always the majority of players. Strat is a redeploy which is always good.

Flayed Skull was murdered in its sleep. I blame Black Heart for bumping off a rival.

Obsidon Rose exists I guess. Smaller board means ranges aren't quite as big and reroll to wound is nice I guess. Still if I'm going shooting, I'd rather have +1 to wound on my base guns rather than 1 reroll to wound.


Wytch Cults:

Cult of Strife: Fight first and +1 to charge a unit that isn't engaged. Pretty decent. They also get the fight twice Strat (for 2 CP), so that makes them a top contender right there.

Cursed Blade: +1 Strength (massive) and deal Mortal wounds when you save on a 6+. That's interesting. Honestly, this feels like the go to Wytch Cult except their Strat, Warlord trait and relic seem forgettable.

Red Grief: +2 Advance and reroll charges. Okay, so you are guaranteed to be in CC turn 2. If traits stack in RSRs (this isn't clear at all, by the way. I honestly don't know if you get both the Obsession and the Cult trait or if it is just the Obsession. It's kinda confusingly worded), than this seems to be a pretty good RSR trait to make your melee pretty reliable for turn 1 charges. Also I think they've got the best Relic and Warlord trait for the Cults.

Covens: Small side note, Coven units lost their Invulnerable (they get it from PfP now) and instead have a 5+ FnP.

Prophets of Flesh: Big nerfs here, but still decent I suppose. First off everything with multiple wounds gets Living Metal basically. Woo. More interestingly, everything gets Transhuman, but only if the weapon isn't S8 or stronger. Which is cool, but since Coven stuff is basically T5 at the weakest, doesn't seem super relevant. More important though is a strat giving Grotesques full Rerolls to hit, which can be combo'd with full rerolls to wound. Blend some stuff.

Dark Creed: -1 LD if they are within 6, and +1 to hit units with LD equal or lower than yours. That's not bad, particularly when you combine it with Incubi. If you also get the Black Heart bonus in a RSR that puts you at LD 9 so you effectively always get the +1 to hit in melee. Sadly that's kinda irrrelevant with the +1 to hit from PfP and I don't think Drukarii really have any weapons like Power Fists that give you -1 to hit.

Coven of Twelve: -1 AP on all non-relic melee weapons and perform actions and shoot. Second half is basically useless as Coven units don't really have guns but the first half is pretty powerful. Makes Talos and Grotesques absolute blenders and turns Wracks into an actual threat. They don't actually tell us what their Stratagem does, just that it deals mortal wounds on a 2+ after you consolidate. How many? Don't know. Any other requirements or conditions? Don't know.

Custom: This gets a mention because I feel these are actually options compared to the others. -1 Damage is massive, and Dark Technomancers (+1 to Wound and Damage, but you overheat) got nerfed. Now if you overcharge you lose all rerolls to hit, and if you are a monster/vehicle you take D3 mortals instead of 1. Still, Covens only get rerolls in RSRs anyways, and there are a ton of ways to heal monsters. Oh, and if you Autohit, there is no risk at all.

Master Traits:

Archon gets a fight again, but once per game. Succubus gets the consolidate in any direction so you can do the cheeky, attack than fall back trick. Doesn't seem worth it though. You want to be in melee. Homunculus gets a respawn on a 2+, a relic that deals mortal wounds once per game, and more importantly shuts down Auras and can respawn D3 Wracks a turn.

But the big thing is unlocking the retinues.

Trueborn: Always hit on a 2+ for 2 points per model. Squad size is maxed at 10, but so so worth it.

Bloodbrides: WS 2+ (eh) and an AP -4 rend on a 6 to wound, rather than AP-1. Not bad, but skippable.

Haemoxytes: +1 Invunerable, and first failed save per phase does 0 damage. Honestly, you only ever need 1 Unit of Wracks, and it should be these ones.

Stratagems: I'm mostly going to skip besides

Eviserating Flyby: every hellion that flys over a unit deals a mortal wound on 5+, or 4+ if they are infantry. Hellions can be in squads of 20. This ability has no max mortal wounds dealt and works on characters. You can give Hellions +2 to advance. Hellions are actually durable now. Delete whatever annoys you most, be that an annoying character, Bladeguard, or Dark Angel Terminators.

and

Potent Metallotoxins: Let a unit's poison weapons work on vehicles. Pretty massive strat.

Warlord Traits:

Archons: Give something Fight last. This is the most reliable form of this, but not the only. There is a lot of fight last in this book. There are other traits, but this is the best for melee armies which you should be running.

Succubus: A bunch of good ones, but the best? Deal mortal wounds equal to your damage on an unmodified 6 to Hit. Succubi can have 10 Attacks at damage 2. Easy choice.

Homunculus have two: Heal flat 3 wounds, so good for keeping Talos and Grotesques alive. And Give +1 to wound. They are unclear if this is just fight phase or also includes shooting, but it's very nice for Talos and Grotesques. Does nothing for Wracks though since it doesn't work on poison.


Secondaries:
Sadly, no free 15 VP here.

They got the same reverse Engage that Necrons got, but DE are so good at Engage I doubt you'd ever take it.

They got 1 VP for every unit killed in melee, 3 VP if it's a character or Monster. That's likely a good pick since so much damage is in Melee and a lot of armies don't really give up other kill secondaries. I doubt you'll max it, but hey, you need to kill things, most of your damage is in Melee, and you need a third pick after deploy scramblers and Engage.

Get 1 VP per model that runs away during the battle. Honestly? If you aren't going up against Space Marines or some other army that ignores morale, you can slam pick this one. You have a ton of LD debuffs and attrition modifiers. Still it being a bad pick against Space Marines means you'll almost never pick this.

Beasts of the Arena is Anti Tyranids. I don't know the details other than score VP for killing Monsters, beasts, or Calvery with Wytch Cult.


Units:
Drazhar: Still a monster. +1 to wound for Incubi, -1 damage on himself, a 2+/4++, always fights twice, and gets a chance to make his opponent fight last. Oh, and he got an extra attack and damage too. His Warlord trait lets him reroll everything, so a worthwhile pick for warlord if you aren't going in a RSR

Lilith: Got worse. Just take the succubus with 10 Attacks dealing mortals on 6s. It's cheaper, better, and doesn't lock you to a faction.

Urien: Basically the same, except now he gets to respawn on a 2+. He did get an extra attack and wound, and his Casket hits automatically, but you're taking him for that sweet +1 S aura. Only problem is locking you to Prophets of Flesh which is not the auto-include it used to be.

One small change is now Alliance of Agony does NOT work on Special Characters, so not slipping a warlord trait on Lilith or Urien without making them your actual Warlord. But their traits aren't anything special, so F'm. Except Drazhar, but Alliance of Agony never worked on him.

Warriors: Between the extra attack, the extra AP on a 6 to wound, and the other melee bonuses, these guys aren't actually trash in CC. Not great, but they can likely take a wound or two off if need be. But their main function is shooting. They are your best source of ranged damage in the entire book, and are reasonable at 10 points per model. And hey, their 4+ save gives them some durability so bolters don't just remove them.

Wytchs: Amazing melee since they are base 4 attacks for only 10 points a model. Their no escape works on everything now, but is a little less consistent. Other than that, they are basically the same. But with the new FnP chart and access to turn 1 Advance and Charge, it's even easier to be always in melee. Unless you've killed whatever you charged.

Wracks: Cheap, durable. That's about it. But that's all they need to do.

Incubi: Got +1 S and damage. More importantly, they actually get the benefits from Black Heart and get reroll 1s from all Archons. If you don't want to go Wytch Cult, these are your other go to melee choice. Oh, and they have a backed in fight last. Roll 2D6, beat the enemy leadership and they fight last. Not easy, so make sure to lower your opponent's LD whenever possible.

Mandrakes: Now inflitrate instead of Deep strike. Also can be picked up to deep strike later. Makes for a really easy Deploy Scramblers, and their abilities haven't changed at all. They've still got a lot of fire power. Also if you take them in a RSR they get the Kabal Obsession, though I feel that's less relevant for them.

Grotesques: Still amazing, got better with +1 S on flesh gauntlets, and +1 Damage on Cleavers.


Reavers: Basically the same, but now Heat Lances are the go-to gun for them. Cheaper than blasters, S8, damage D6+2.

Hellions: By far, most improved unit in the book. 2 Wounds, T4, 3 Attacks, and AP-1 in melee and keeping the Damage 2.

Cronos: S5 guns now, and instead of just healing wounds, it will respawn a model with 1 wound if there are none to heal. Oh, and now their aura is always on for reroll 1s to wound in melee. Only works on Core, but only Mandrakes and vehicles are not core.

Venoms: Kinda suck now, but can carry 6 people. Woo.

Raiders: Can carry 11 people, got an extra toughness, and Dark lances are better than ever. Also Chain snare now give +3 Attacks for only 5 points, so now even your Raiders are actually pretty decent melee units.

Voidravens: Are expensive but can lay down some serious hurt. Their bomb drops on a point rather than a unit, and every unit with 6 inches takes D6 mortal wounds on a 4+, unless they are a character. Still just as fragile as always, so if you have one, it's going to die turn 1. But if you get turn 1, you can lay down enough damage to take a pretty substantial lead.


In Summary?

Melee. Build for melee, build around melee, build to do melee. It's not like you have no ranged options, indeed I do think a unit of Trueborn and maybe some Scourges are a requirement, but the meat of your army is likely either Incubi or Wytch Cult. The durability on Wracks dropped a bit, but the Haemocytes are even more durable, so yeah. One unit of them for Objective Secured and than look to Grotesques, Talos, and Chronos to do the work. In melee.

Black Heart RSR I think are going to be the most common build because it makes your melee faster and more reliable. But I do think Patrols where you've got 1 Poisoned Tongue for shooting, and than two melee patrols will see play too. Particularly if you want Drazhar since he doesn't fit in a RSR unless it is a brigade.

All told, I don't think Dark Eldar can win the durability game. If you try and hang back and hold objectives, I think you just get shot off the board. You need to kill your opponent, and fast. But you've got tons of damage and are fast enough for mass turn 1 charges.

[Voidhawk]

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-dru...hammer-review/

Im sort of surprised it wasn't posted before. Anyways:

> Ravagers are out due to not Core
> Agents is nerfed to trash
> Poison can't beat transhuman so whatever
> Realspace Raid is a wonky rule that may or may not be enough.

Its very marines-like, with their upgraded HQs and Retinues; statlines are still pretty pathetic and trying to make wyches into discount harlequins doesnt make sense since Harlequins already exist. I do have the scan of the whole thing, but its a photo scan (spanish, so weird angles everywhere), not the neat OCR stuff Im used to, so I feel too lazy to go through it in detail.

Everything I see there is a nerf.

Cult Of Red Grief can no longer Advance+Charge on turn 1 (the only turn it matters). [Kabal of The Black Heart can, but they have nothing fast+killy enough to do it with.]
Ravagers, Raiders, and Venoms no longer receive buffs from Archons/Writ.
Flayed Skull lost their re-rolls when embarked. [Why?? Was anyone even using them?]
Agents of Vect got nerfed into the floor, now only putting a minor tax on using a strat multiple times.

All in al, it looks like they want the Dark Eldar to abandon their transports and make a mono-infantry melee pile. Without having any idea what they would need to do that.

I was going to pre-order, but now I'm not going to bother. Far better things to spend my currency on elsewhere.

No-one played Dark Eldar in order to walk.

[LansXero]

Anyways, Goonhammer review as Lans pointed out
In Summary?

Melee. Build for melee, build around melee, build to do melee. (...) All told, I don't think Dark Eldar can win the durability game. If you try and hang back and hold objectives, I think you just get shot off the board. You need to kill your opponent, and fast. But you've got tons of damage and are fast enough for mass turn 1 charges.

So basically, be discount Harlequins without the meltas.

[Blackhawk748]

Im still trying to wrap my head around what they did to Flayed Skulls. Like... where they just tearing things up in 8th when I wasn't looking or something? Did a designer get seal clubbed by them? Who was hurt by this faction that they needed to have their legs blown off??

[Forum Explorer]

Everything I see there is a nerf.

Cult Of Red Grief can no longer Advance+Charge on turn 1 (the only turn it matters). [Kabal of The Black Heart can, but they have nothing fast+killy enough to do it with.]
Ravagers, Raiders, and Venoms no longer receive buffs from Archons/Writ.
Flayed Skull lost their re-rolls when embarked. [Why?? Was anyone even using them?]
Agents of Vect got nerfed into the floor, now only putting a minor tax on using a strat multiple times.

All in al, it looks like they want the Dark Eldar to abandon their transports and make a mono-infantry melee pile. Without having any idea what they would need to do that.

I was going to pre-order, but now I'm not going to bother. Far better things to spend my currency on elsewhere.

No-one played Dark Eldar in order to walk.

Look closer than. Dark Eldar got a lot, but it was all focused around melee. I don't think shooty Dark Eldar can work anymore.

So basically, be discount Harlequins without the meltas.

By simple majority, Harlequins are now expensive Dark Eldar. Also Dark Lances are basically better meltas, so you do have those.

But you aren't entirely wrong. Just that being discount Harlequins actually plays more differently than those words imply.

Im still trying to wrap my head around what they did to Flayed Skulls. Like... where they just tearing things up in 8th when I wasn't looking or something? Did a designer get seal clubbed by them? Who was hurt by this faction that they needed to have their legs blown off??

I know right?