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2008-05-04, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Finally, some information on the 4e license
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080502
SpoilerQ. Will there be a fee to participate? Do we still have to pay $5,000?
A. The Game System Licenses are royalty-free licenses and there is no developer’s kit fee associated with them.
Q. Can anyone participate?
A. Yes. Interested third party publishers will be required to submit a registration card, agreeing to the terms of use. This registration card will be part of the materials available to publishers on our website beginning June 6, 2008.
Q. When can we start publishing GSL products?
A. The effective start date for sales of D&D 4E GSL publications is set for October 1, 2008. The timing for the d20 GSL has not yet been determined.
Q. Is the new license finished yet? Can you provide a firm timeline?
A. The D&D 4e GSL will be released when we launch Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition on June 6, 2008.
Q. What are the specific details of the license?
A. The specific details will be available to the public upon the release of the licenses.
Q. How will the GSL interact with the OGL?
A. The two GSLs are new licenses, separate from the OGL. They are designed for companies that wish to publish 4th edition compatible products.
Q. Can companies still produce 3.x products under the OGL?
A. Yes, but we anticipate that interest in the 4e GSLs will be greater.
Q. Can publishers release new products under both the OGL and 4E GSL?
A. No. Each new product will be either OGL or 4E GSL. If a new product is published under the 4e GSL, it cannot also be published as 3.x product under the OGL; and vice versa.
Q. I have multiple product lines. If I update one product line to 4th Edition, do they all have to be updated?
A. No. Publishers are able to choose on a product line by product line basis which license will work best.
Q. Will there be a different license for other lines, such as d20 Modern?
A. The d20 GSL will allow for other genres of roleplaying games.
Q. Why are there two different licenses?
A. The D&D 4e GSL is specific to the Dungeons & Dragons brand. The d20 GSL allows for non-fantasy genres. Both licenses tie to the 4th edition rule set.
Q. Do I have to give up my right to publish 3.5 OGL products in order to publish 4e compatible products?
A. No. Publishers are free to print product lines under either the OGL or 4E GSL. We would love to see our industry colleagues convert their entire product offerings to 4E, as we are doing, but we do not expect or require entire companies to convert to the new edition.
Q. Can publishers update their previous publications from older editions to the D&D 4th Edition rules?
A. Yes. Publishers participating in the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition GSL will be allowed, and encouraged, to convert their publications from earlier editions to the 4th Edition rules.
So, it seems that WotC won't ban 3e products if you want to work in 4e, as was speculated earlier. Companies won't be able to release books with both 3e and 4e material, but it doesn't appear to be any more restrictive than that.
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2008-05-04, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
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2008-05-04, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oh gods i wish i knew
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
I remember i wrote a large theory on why WotC was doing this on the last thread, i wonder if it is still valid
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2008-05-04, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
The wording we were given previously did in fact say this in unambiguous terms, so the rumor was well founded. The information itself came from, I believe, Necromancer Games. That they have refined the wording (Or that we have gotten a more accurate glimpse of it, whichever) to say that a company can use both, but not in the same book, is much better, though the previous wording left it pretty easy to circumvent anyway.
Edit: Hm, given the wording, it's possible that you may not be allowed to print the same book twice, once as 4e and once as 3e. Not sure how I feel about that, but I don't think I care too heavily either way.Last edited by Rutee; 2008-05-04 at 01:01 PM.
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2008-05-04, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
I doubt that.
Q. Do I have to give up my right to publish 3.5 OGL products in order to publish 4e compatible products?
A. No. Publishers are free to print product lines under either the OGL or 4E GSL. We would love to see our industry colleagues convert their entire product offerings to 4E, as we are doing, but we do not expect or require entire companies to convert to the new edition.
Q. Can publishers update their previous publications from older editions to the D&D 4th Edition rules?
A. Yes. Publishers participating in the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition GSL will be allowed, and encouraged, to convert their publications from earlier editions to the 4th Edition rules.
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2008-05-04, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Actually, they mentioned "Product Lines". While you may be able to have one last hurrah, as it were, where one set of books is released, and then the next day, you update them to 4e, you may not be able to continue printing products under the same trademarked product line name as 3.5e. It strongly depends on the wording of the GSL, I'm merely pointing out the possibility thereof.
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2008-05-04, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Will the 3.x version have the same ISBN as the 4e book?
Yes: Cannot publish under both 3.x and 4e, as they are the same product.
No: Different product, even if it has near-identical titles and flavor texts.
Example: I'm pretty sure that you can't release the same product for both the Xbox and the Gamecube (i.e. the same disk can't work in both systems). However, Sonic Heroes for the Xbox would then be technically a different product from the same game but released for the Gamecube.
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2008-05-04, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
It'd be relatively trivial to say.. oh dammit, Trademark and Copyright law are not my specialties at this time, but that a particular trademarked product name (For instance, Forgotten Realms, or Pathfinder) was used on 4e, it could not then be used on 3.5e
I'm not trying to doomspeak, just trying to keep the jubilations down until we have the actual GSL to look at. As they pointed out, the details will be there.Last edited by Rutee; 2008-05-04 at 02:04 PM.
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2008-05-04, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Wait rutee, are you a lawyer or just a person who studies law? I'm not really criticizing you, just interested
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2008-05-04, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Yep. "Some" information, emphasis on "some". Wow, them lawyer types sure are vague.
Anyway, glad to hear they're not stupid enough to ban companies from publishing for both editions. Even if it was circumventable.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2008-05-04, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Originally Posted by Q&A
WotC is completely converting to 4e, which should include Living Greyhawk and all RPGA events, conventions, sponsored tournaments, etc. Many D&D players will also be converting to 4e, especially any who play in any of the above formats.
And also many 3/3.5e players already have a full set of source books / splat books, etc, while no one has any 4e material. It's a new market, and getting to market first is often very profitable.
There may be companies who decide to continue printing their 3/3.5e materials and not bother with 4e. But I'm betting that those companies will see their market share drop significantly within the first year of 4e publication.--
Cheers,
Kompera
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2008-05-04, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Damn straight. It's the only sensible choice when you don't have all the information, and you want to be smart about talking about what you do have (Especially when what you do have is in flux).
Also, if this is going in for sure, I'll have reminded myself of why I spoke up.
"Q. Can publishers release new products under both the OGL and 4E GSL?
A. No. Each new product will be either OGL or 4E GSL. If a new product is published under the 4e GSL, it cannot also be published as 3.x product under the OGL; and vice versa."
This is rather unequivocal wording. You can not upgrade a new product. You must choose when you publish it what it will be. I assume that there will be an allowance in upgrading existing product (So the shrewd 'last hurrah' would be releasing the day before DnD 4e does)
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2008-05-05, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
As someone with a vested interest in this situation (), I'm reasonably happy with this approach, and frankly, it's what I expected. The rumored approach of the GSL being a poison pill was just so stupid a move (from both a PR view and a legal view [too easy to circumvent]) that I never actually expected that to be true.
While I would ideally love to be able to keep product lines in both versions, I understand WotC's position on this, and can live with it. Most of our current projects are pretty tightly tied to 3.5 anyway, and 4e conversions would likely prove difficult. One of the adventure series we're working on may be reasonable to convert to 4e, but we'll make that decision after reviewing the final license and the SRD; we'll probably still release part 1 under 3.5, as it'll be done before October, but we may convert it later... or we may not, we'll see.
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2008-05-05, 07:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Before I make my point, I'd just like to say I have absolutely no legal training, so I could be completely wrong.
OK, on with the point.
Looking at that wording, it seems like you could produce two seperate product lines. Let's call them, for the sake of argument, Steel Nations and Nations of Steel.
The difference between them? Steel Nations is 4e, while Nations of Steel is 3.5e. They might have slightly different sourcebooks coming out, but they'd be very similar (The Book of Guns that Shoot Guns for Steel Nations and the Tome of Gun-Firing Guns for Nations of Steel both cover weaponry that launches weaponry and have very similar base classes, but BoGtSG contains some Paragon Paths involving guns that shoot guns, while ToGFG has some prestige classes).BImportant note: I'll be away from the Internet for two weeks. Apologies to anyone this causes a problem for.
Thanks to xiolin_monk (AKA Maestro) for the Wolf Priest avvy.
I am the insane creator of the Mind Flayer Paladin of Freedom. Fear his brain-eating for goodness.
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2008-05-05, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2008-05-05, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
If you do that, it may well be one of those cases where you would be completely correct from a purely legalistic point of view, but would nevertheless be sued into oblivion because WOTC can afford better lawyers than you.
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2008-05-05, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2008-05-05, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Yup, that looks like what they are doing here, which is well within their rights, legally and otherwise. I strongly doubt that they would leave a loophole in place that would allow the publication of two exact copies of two "different" sourcebooks, one printed in accordance with 3.5 the other 4e. That would be a very easy hole to close, and would be easily identifiable and easily enforceable.
Until we see the actual text of the license though, its still all pure speculation. Fun though, isn't it!?
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2008-05-05, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Q. Can publishers release new products under both the OGL and 4E GSL?
A. No. Each new product will be either OGL or 4E GSL. If a new product is published under the 4e GSL, it cannot also be published as 3.x product under the OGL; and vice versa.Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2008-05-05, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Raw Deal?
WotC is letting people publish fluff that is 100% compliant with the #1 selling RPG in the world, and they let you do it for free, despite the fact that they could easily prohibit it. So they want your support in making their newest publication do well... that's a pretty fair trade off there.
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2008-05-05, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
So they want your support in making their newest publication do well... that's a pretty fair trade off there.Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2008-05-05, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
See, I look at it from the other direction.
You're looking at it as, "they let people publish for 3e all they want, so they should let people publish for 4e all they want!"
I'm looking at it as, "they would be perfectly within their rights to take anybody trying to publish for 4e and sue them into the ground. Instead, they're letting them publish for 4e, with one minor restriction."SpoilerBossing Around Mad Cats for Fun and Profit: Let's Play MechCommander 2!
Kicking this LP into overdrive: Let's Play StarCraft 2!
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2008-05-05, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Agreed. The wording here is unclear as to if conversion to 4e is a one way door for any given trademarked/copyrighted product line.
Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka
Originally Posted by Tyger
Originally Posted by Matthew[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2008-05-05, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
You're looking at it as, "they let people publish for 3e all they want, so they should let people publish for 4e all they want!"
I'm looking at it as, "they would be perfectly within their rights to take anybody trying to publish for 4e and sue them into the ground. Instead, they're letting them publish for 4e, with one minor restriction."
Actually, I'm looking at it the correct way, which is to say, if, for example, Green Ronin switches to 4e, all of Green Ronin's customer base will need to buy 4e corebooks. Which is better than free advertising for WotC.
If they don't switch, Green Ronin's customer base will not need to buy 4e core books. Which is likely, since from what I've heard, Green Ronin has no interest in switching.
Does Green Ronin suffer from not switching? No. Does Green Ronin have any reason to switch if the GSL is in fact unfavorable in the manner I described? No.Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2008-05-05, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
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2008-05-05, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-05-05, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
Oh FFS. This is getting freaking ludicrous.
Oh. God damn. Noes. WotC makes business choices that support itself. And still leaves two licenses that let you use material for free.
What they probably mean to say is that given book X cannot contain both 3.5 and 4e material. Which would be a pain to do anyway.
If what they actually mean to say is that FakeCompanyNames'R'Us can't release The Dungeon of Dum'As the Mad 4e, and then release The Dungean of Dum'As the Mad 3.5, then they are both being jerks, and likely hurting themselves in the process (due to aformentioned loss of free product support).Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2008-05-05, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Finally, some information on the 4e license
What the hell do I care? I care about two things when I ponder purchases. What's good for me, and how something may be hurt by this. The latter consideration is primarily saved for truly unfair business practices; Things like sweatshop labor. First off, what WotC doing is hardly 'unfair business practices'. Oh. Freaking. Noes. You can't use all their mechanics. The only reason people care in the first place is that they allowed people to use their mechanics for free (And you know what? I'm pretty that as a consumer, I was hurt by the OGL; yanno why? Suddenly everyone makes DnD-mechanics based books. *I don't care at all for DnD 3e*) That was bad for me as a consumer; It was also bad for me as a gamer who actually likes other systems. Do you know how freaking entrenched a lot of gamers get about DnD? They can't even be bothered to /ponder/ a new system.
So I don't even give a damn in the first place if Green Ronin can't use Dungeons and Dragons mechanics. Not only is that /not/ unfair business practices, but it means Green Ronin can make their own; They're pretty smart fellas. Honestly, I think they can produce better mechanics. What the hell do I care that WotC isn't letting them use their material.
If what they actually mean to say is that FakeCompanyNames'R'Us can't release The Dungeon of Dum'As the Mad 4e, and then release The Dungean of Dum'As the Mad 3.5, then they are both being jerks, and likely hurting themselves in the process (due to aformentioned loss of free product support).