The LA-assignment thread

[No brains]

Turns out there's third-party pathfinder material that has some pretty awesome formian pictures. I might even replace the warrior's and worker's with them.

Is this the end for croissant-claws?

[Inevitability]

Is this the end for croissant-claws?

If the masses will it so.

[javcs]

Actually, I don't think she loses the benefit. The way it's worded, any one formian grants the benefit to all other formians in range, not just itself, so as long as she has a minion, it should give her the perks even if she doesn't have the ability.

Besides Hive Mind only matters if there are other Formians around. Relevant for an NPC Queen ... and somewhat less likely for a PC Queen, although it depends. Unless a Queen can bypass the normal limitations of Planar Binding type spells when she calls a non-Queen Formian. If she can, that could get ... interesting.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, I don't think she loses the benefit. The way it's worded, any one formian grants the benefit to all other formians in range, not just itself, so as long as she has a minion, it should give her the perks even if she doesn't have the ability.

Ah, nice catch. Arguably, once polymorphed, the former queen does not count as a formian. But that's just how I would rule it.

Besides Hive Mind only matters if there are other Formians around. Relevant for an NPC Queen ... and somewhat less likely for a PC Queen, although it depends. Unless a Queen can bypass the normal limitations of Planar Binding type spells when she calls a non-Queen Formian. If she can, that could get ... interesting.

If I were playing a formian queen, I would find a way to have other formians around. It is, in my opinion, the greatest draw of playing a queen. Everything else can be had through other monsters (hi, black ethergaunt, phaerimm, nilshai) or through spells/powers. Of course, any ability which grants (Ex) and (Su) abilities will also work for formian queens, but it's satisfying to have the ability 24/7 and unsuppressable.

[Troacctid]

Ah, nice catch. Arguably, once polymorphed, the former queen does not count as a formian. But that's just how I would rule it.

While I understand the rules justification for creatures "losing" their race when they polymorph, I think it probably causes more dysfunctions than it solves. It feels incorrect to have your racial feats turn off, for example.

[ExLibrisMortis]

While I understand the rules justification for creatures "losing" their race when they polymorph, I think it probably causes more dysfunctions than it solves. It feels incorrect to have your racial feats turn off, for example.

Feats in general become unusable when you switch into a form that doesn't support them. Racial feats are no different. If you want all the benefits of a form change, you must suffer all the drawbacks.

That said, the hive mind may well be a purely mental power (although it is not magical), which would be supported by pretty much any form. If so, you can rule that it's keyed off your non-altered soul, rather than your altered body, and allow it to work in all forms. I mean, it's not like the formians are going to question your telepathic command to follow the big shiny dragon .

[javcs]

Nope. Hive Mind is no good when the Queen is polymorphed.

It is, quite clearly a racial Extraordinary Special Quality, and thus the Queen looses it under the effects of a polymorph type spell. And Hive Mind is dependent upon the Queen - the Formian Hive Mind is described in such a way that the Queen is basically the central routing hub of the Formian Hive Mind.

Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.

Emphasis mine.
If the Queen doesn't have Hive Mind because she's polymorphed, it could well be argued that for the purposes of the Hive Mind ability, she doesn't exist, leaving all the Formians she was coordinating disconnected from the Hive Mind.

[Yxylu]

Check my thinking here. If you apply the Skeleton template to a Formian Queen (an exoskeleton is a skeleton, right?), she would have the following stats:

Str: -
Dex: -
Con: -
Int: -
Wis: 10
Cha: 1

Is there any way to get a lower total of ability scores? Any other way to get all 4 non-required stats to be "-"?

[Malimar]

Is there any way to get a lower total of ability scores? Any other way to get all 4 non-required stats to be "-"?

Ghost Brute Shrieker Fungus is the classic.

[Inevitability]

Ghost Brute Shrieker Fungus is the classic.

It gets worse: there's an issue of Dragon Magazine with the Dream Element template. For reasons incomprehensible, it takes away a creature's wisdom and charisma while letting it remain a creature. A Necromental Dream Element Shrieker Fungus would have no ability scores at all.

[danielxcutter]

It gets worse: there's an issue of Dragon Magazine with the Dream Element template. For reasons incomprehensible, it takes away a creature's wisdom and charisma while letting it remain a creature. A Necromental Dream Element Shrieker Fungus would have no ability scores at all.

Just what in the nine hells were WotC smoking when they came up with that?

[zergling.exe]

Just what in the nine hells were WotC smoking when they came up with that?

Nothing, Paizo came up with most of the Dragon Magazine material, so you'd have to ask them.

edit: I'm not sure if dream elementals come from one of the few that were actually published by WotC, but it is more likely than not that Paizo made it if it comes from Dragon Magazine.

[danielxcutter]

Nothing, Paizo came up with most of the Dragon Magazine material, so you'd have to ask them.

edit: I'm not sure if dream elementals come from one of the few that were actually published by WotC, but it is more likely than not that Paizo made it if it comes from Dragon Magazine.

Okay. Then what in the nine hells were Paizo smoking?

[Inevitability]

Okay. Then what in the nine hells were Paizo smoking?

Crushed d20's, the tears of a rules lawyer, and whatever is behind Pale Night's veil. Don't ask me how I know.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Okay. Then what in the nine hells were Paizo smoking?

It gets worse. The template doesn't actually mention taking the creature's charisma score; you have to apply the rule on page 312 of the Monster Manual to figure that out. If you don't, you have a creature with self-awareness, but no ability to perceive anything. It's like taking Plato's cave and boarding up the entrance.

[danielxcutter]

It gets worse. The template doesn't actually mention taking the creature's charisma score; you have to apply the rule on page 312 of the Monster Manual to figure that out. If you don't, you have a creature with self-awareness, but no ability to perceive anything. It's like taking Plato's cave and boarding up the entrance.

Okay... so they were smoking something from the BoVD. I do believe there were drugs in there.

[Strigon]

It gets worse. The template doesn't actually mention taking the creature's charisma score; you have to apply the rule on page 312 of the Monster Manual to figure that out. If you don't, you have a creature with self-awareness, but no ability to perceive anything. It's like taking Plato's cave and boarding up the entrance.

Your quote will make a fine addition to my collection!

(Can I sig this?)

[No brains]

In theory, a creature with no senses or sense of self could work. Just imagine a puppet that someone else completely controls. It functions in most physical ways as a creature, but only really exists as an extension of another.

[Inevitability]

In theory, a creature with no senses or sense of self could work. Just imagine a puppet that someone else completely controls. It functions in most physical ways as a creature, but only really exists as an extension of another.

Even things like animated objects still have senses, though, and these completely lack all semblances of free will.

[Flickerdart]

Even things like animated objects still have senses, though, and these completely lack all semblances of free will.

An animated object is still autonomous. I guess a no CHA/WIS creature could be used to model something like Mordenkainen's sword. Instead of the weapon having attack and defense statistics, you could model it as a creature of WIS/CHA 0 that has particular attack bonuses, damage, etc.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Your quote will make a fine addition to my collection!

(Can I sig this?)

Certainly.

@No brains: I think that, in D&D, such a creature would share the wisdom/charisma scores of its commander, such as an astral projection or body outside body clone would.

[No brains]

Certainly.

@No brains: I think that, in D&D, such a creature would share the wisdom/charisma scores of its commander, such as an astral projection or body outside body clone would.

But this puppet would not work so well as to share senses with its master, it would just have no senses. The master can only coordinate attacks from their perspective and a clever rogue could even hide on the back of the puppet from the master. It would be lacking in the common sense that even a skeleton or animated table would possess.

I think that kind of logic would work for a monster in a dream (if that's what a dream vestige is, I'm not sure) because there isn't really an 'offstage' in a dream. Nothing exists outside of line of sight unless it's part of the dream's general narrative.

By the by, thank you Dire_Stirge for allowing and even partaking in these off-topic discussions. This thread, The LA-assignment Thread by Dire_Stirge, is Epic!

[Efrate]

I think I have to go with taskmaster as a +3. Infinite, more or less, dominate monster is amazing. Every non-protected enemy large or smaller (so most things with class levels), given time, is yours. Suicide it. It invalidates a significant portion of combat. Boo hoo it cannot easily get other 9th level spells. It still gets a very good 9th level spell at will. Pro law also doesn't prevent establishment of domination, just suppress it and the link. You know if your spell succeeds, so cast, run away, come back when its sleeping. Or just throw a dispel, odds are if they have it is at low caster level.

A bit of gold and research and its like leadership on steroids. The king/mayor/person with a lot of class levels has to sleep sometime. Pretty easy to get them to fail eventually. Quietly say your Verbal component. It is not sonic nor language dependent, so catch em sleeping and you have a minion.

Plus 3 might be a a bit low for what is essentially a one trick pony, but that is one heck of a trick.

[Troacctid]

Of course, a better way to make it suitable for PCs would be to simply replace the dominate ability with a free cohort a la Thrallherd.

[Inevitability]

Formian Myrmarch

Fun fact: the word 'formian' comes from 'formicidae', the official term for the ant family.

With etymology done: let's get started on entomology. Formian myrmarchs have 12 HD. They are Large and have good scores all around, with +8 to all physical stats and +6 to all mentals. In addition to default formian immunities, myrmarchs also have fast healing and improved SR.

Myrmarchs lack their lesser kin's claws, but the ability to use weapons normally makes up for that. Their poison deals 2d6 dexterity damage, making it far more interesting than the warrior's and taskmaster's (then again, poison is getting easier to prevent at those levels).

Myrmarchs also have a few SLA's, but they are almost all inferior to what a caster can do by now. The only exceptions are self-only Greater Teleport and Dictum, both of which a cleric can't use until ECL 13.

In the end, I think +0 LA is fine here.

[AMX]

'Myrmarch' doesn't seem to have a real-world origin, though.

It's Greek.
Myrmex ("ant") and archon ("ruler")

I think "Ant-lord" is a fairly good translation.

[Inevitability]

It's Greek.
Myrmex ("ant") and archon ("ruler")

I think "Ant-lord" is a fairly good translation.

Interesting: I didn't know that. Do you have a source confirming this was the designers' intention?

[Boci]

Interesting: I didn't know that. Do you have a source confirming this was the designers' intention?

You are asking for a source confirming that the writers meant to use the Greek word for ant ruler, as oppose to choosing the name randomly?

[Inevitability]

You are asking for a source confirming that the writers meant to use the Greek word for ant ruler, as oppose to choosing the name randomly?

More or less.

[AMX]

Interesting: I didn't know that. Do you have a source confirming this was the designers' intention?

No, I just happen to know the etymology of "Myrmidon" and "Oligarch."