The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Daedroth]

Said classes are all full casters, such as Psion.



Hmm... you know, I forget if bigger armor costs more to enchant. Does it? For some reason I think I've seen this somewhere, but I'm not sure at all...

Nope, but multiplies the cost on the case of special materials

[danielxcutter]

Rogue is a full caster, good to know.

Excellent insight.

You said "high tier". Rogue, while an excellent class, isn't exactly high tier. Mid-tier, maybe.

[Nifft]

You said "high tier".

Man what?

Can you quote the specific line, so I can try to correlate it with what you're saying here?

[danielxcutter]

Man what?

Can you quote the specific line, so I can try to correlate it with what you're saying here?

Oh sorry, got confused who said that.

Still, the specific line was "There are lots of high tier classes whose HD is much worse." by lord_khaine.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Nope, but multiplies the cost on the case of special materials

I know Sage said that but is it in the base rules? I never check because we just house rule that magic arms and armor resize.

[danielxcutter]

I know Sage said that but is it in the base rules? I never check because we just house rule that magic arms and armor resize.

Hmm... I just checked the SRD, and it doesn't say anything like that. Huh.

[Nifft]

Oh sorry, got confused who said that.

Still, the specific line was "There are lots of high tier classes whose HD is much worse." by lord_khaine.

Got it, yeah he did say that.

He's also correct.

Plant HD are basically Aristocrat HD -- not bad, not great. Middle of the road.

Not horrible.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Got it, yeah he did say that.

He's also correct.

Plant HD are basically Aristocrat HD -- not bad, not great. Middle of the road.

Not horrible.

A critical different between plant and aristocrat HD is the loss of skill points and, given how monsters work, that means a loss of class skills for those monster HD.

[danielxcutter]

A critical different between plant and aristocrat HD is the loss of skill points and, given how monsters work, that means a loss of class skills for those monster HD.

Oh yeah, Rogues also have waaay better skills and skill points per level.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'd say the treant a +0. It's probably a strong +0, but it's not strong enough for +1. The detriments are harsh enough to counteract the benefits.

Fire Vulnerability is nasty, yes, but then again, methods to acquire resistance or immunity to fire aren't lacking. Hell, a measly Resist Energy should be lasting over an hour at that point, and granting Resist 20.

The raw numbers are way too powerful for that level. Your ability to blenderize anything in sight, and be essentially untouchable to anyone whom might dent your honking HP past your fat DR, and your Plant immunities help to get you through any spells that get past your boosted Con and Wis.

[Thurbane]

OK, lets see here:

• Huge creature with 15 ft reach. Any melee type is loving this. This, with your Str modifier, is a grapplers dream come true.
• 30 ft move: standard.
• +13 natural AC: solid.
• Two respectable natural attacks (2d6 base each).
• Str +18, Dex -2, Con +10, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +2 (+36 total). If you can't build something good with these, you're not trying hard enough.
• Animate Trees (Sp): the minionmancy potential here is quite high, depending on how you read the duration. If you read it as 12 days, it's pretty solid. Also, it's at will. The limit of two trees at a time keeps it within the bounds of sanity. Essentially you constantly have two CR 8 creatures tagging (slowly) along with you. The value diminishes at higher levels, obviously.
• Double Damage against Objects (Ex): not that useful, unless you are going for a sunder build, in which case it's amazing. Nobody really does this through. "OMG you destroyed treasure! Bad Treebeard! Bad!"
• DR 10/slashing is nice, in anyone's language. Not earth shattering, but definitely nice.
• Low light vision: meh. Darkvision's poor cousin.
• Plant Traits: probably the strongest immunties you can get by type, behind Construct and Undead; you have the benefits of having a healthy Con bonus to hit points.
• Trample (Ex): a moderately useful special attack.
• Vulnerability to Fire: nasty, but easily ameliorated with commonly accessible spells and items.
• Looking at the artwork, there's a strong argument that Treants have fully functional hands.
• 7 unimpressive RHD: medium BAB, one good save, 2 skill points/HD. This is the only real downside of the beast, IMHO. At least your racial skill list isn't too shabby.

Overall, I think the upsides far outweigh the downsides here. I'm voting LA +1, and a strong +1 at that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The raw numbers are way too powerful for that level. Your ability to blenderize anything in sight, and be essentially untouchable to anyone whom might dent your honking HP past your fat DR, and your Plant immunities help to get you through any spells that get past your boosted Con and Wis.

Blenderize? Untouchable? You don't have the natural attacks or base attack to blenderize anything. It's possible to get nice damage if you add incredibly front-loaded classes (Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem barbarian), but that--which is the single most powerful melee option for a treant--still doesn't take you past a solid tier 4. You'd be right up there with the other barbarian überchargers, making up for your lack of maneuvers/Dungeoncrasher/interesting abilities with brute strength.

[Thurbane]

I really want to build a Treant baD guy to mess with the party now. Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce. Power Attack/Improved Sunder. A huge adamantine greathammer to sunder weapons and armor. The players would hate me.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not of the opinion that Treants are terribly powerful(for their modified ECL), but I do think they'd certainly be interesting options for elite monster encounters with class levels.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Do perusing some books: treant is an excellent entry into pious templar as it can easily meet the requires and honestly it is not a bad class at all and makes good use of Str, Con, and Wis.

Ur-Priest is doable if you tag a level in something with broad skills and good will, such as Facotum, Savant, or Expert. The Str is not be as amazingly leveraged but +6 Wis goes a long way toward making that class amazing(er).

Divine Crusader will require you to get +2 BAB but the entry is easy otherwise. A good domain can be amazing here and adding more domains is fun (as is messing with your list via Customize Domain from Dragon Magazine). You must not take that 10th level so snag a nice PRC when you can.

Bestiary of Kyrnn's Branch of Zivilyn is solid for its first three level but after that is not entirely amazing. Being gargantuan has ups and downs but hey, another 4 Wis on top of size modifiers. I have used the PRC with volodnoi and it was awesome TBH.

Crusader and Warblade make choices thanks to your mental stats, but despite your high Wis the fact you need light armor (which is expensive because huge and debately humanoid) and cutting your BAB more is not good.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Blenderize? Untouchable? You don't have the natural attacks or base attack to blenderize anything. It's possible to get nice damage if you add incredibly front-loaded classes (Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem barbarian), but that--which is the single most powerful melee option for a treant--still doesn't take you past a solid tier 4. You'd be right up there with the other barbarian überchargers, making up for your lack of maneuvers/Dungeoncrasher/interesting abilities with brute strength.

It's not hard to get silly with a +20 STR mod.

Add +13 NA on any frontliner with level-appropriate armour and try to hit with level-appropriate monsters.

[Nifft]

It's not hard to get silly with a +20 STR mod.

Add +13 NA on any frontliner with level-appropriate armour and try to hit with level-appropriate monsters.

Plus the 15 ft. reach.

Feats like Knockdown and Stand Still are going to be very effective, and they're going to be multiplied by buffs which extend reach or weapons which double it (to 30 ft., which is quite a zone of control).



Heh, or what about just plain carrying your party around in your branches? With a huge zone of denial, your branches are probably quite safe. Maybe you could even get some kind of Drawmij's Wondrous Treehouse installed, so your T1 spell buddies can get full cover from dragonbreath and whatnot.

"Wizard an' cleric sittin' in a tree, C-A-S-T-I-N-G."

[Inevitability]

Triton

Because there's no such thing as too many aquatic races.

3 outsider HD, the water subtype, a decent amount of natural armor, an okay swim speed, and a horrible land speed. +2 to all stats other than dexterity and charisma make for a balanced albeit unimpressive stat array.

Apart from this, the only notable feature is a triton's ability to cast Summon Nature's Ally IV once per day, which I admit opens up some pretty good options. Brown bears, tigers, and deinonychuses are all very powerful beatsticks, medium-sized elementals come with some pretty interesting traits, and unicorns are basically walking SLA-batteries (which is rare for SNA summons). And that's before going into earlier lists: at low levels 1d4+1 crocodiles are going to ruin any melee character's day. The CL is an impressive 7, meaning anything you summon will stick around for well over half a minute.

If it weren't for the summoning ability, these guys would be an easy -0. As it is right now, they have the ability to absolutely dominate one battle a day, while being near-useless in other encounters. Keeping in mind that advancing tritons anywhere is going to be very hard, I'll put down a +0 here: do discuss.

[Celestia]

Seems fair to me. They're decent but not remarkable.

[lord_khaine]

Crusader and Warblade make choices thanks to your mental stats, but despite your high Wis the fact you need light armor (which is expensive because huge and debately humanoid) and cutting your BAB more is not good.

No its not. A huge +2 chainshirt is going to cost 4550 gold if i remember the masterwork price correctly. Compared to 4250 for a regular chainshirt. The only time this will have a noticeable impact on WBL is when you go for a full plate, or something made in an exotic material.

[Nifft]

In an aquatic campaign they'd be quite viable.

LA +0 seems fine.

[ViperMagnum357]

Outsider HD and no penalties besides mediocre landspeed(easily remedied). LA+0.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No its not. A huge +2 chainshirt is going to cost 4550 gold if i remember the masterwork price correctly. Compared to 4250 for a regular chainshirt. The only time this will have a noticeable impact on WBL is when you go for a full plate, or something made in an exotic material.

+2 Chainshirt for a huge non-humanoid would be 4950, assuming you do not use the argument that masterwork gets multiplied. If you do then it becomes 6000. That is a lot for +6 AC, even if it activates Wis to AC and that money spent cuts into the money you need to spend to regain the to-hit you are bleeding out.

As for triton we still run into the issue where it is not clear if it can breath air. -0 if it cannot and, honestly, I am not sure it is ultimately worth a +0 even if it does. 3 levels for a tiny pile of stats and a 1/day SLA that does not scale? I can get a better pile of stats for the same price (aside from worse HD).

[Thurbane]

Triton:

• 3 of the (equal) best RHD.
• Horrid land movement speed, but to be honest, you would generally only be playing a Triton in a largely aquatic game anyway.
• +6 natural AC: nice, but not game breaking.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Str +2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +2 (+8 total): again, nice but not game breaking.
• Decent set of racial skills for your RHD. Racial bonus to Swim, as expected.
• 1/day SNA IV. Strong(ish) at lower levels, becomes less useful as you level up.

Terrible land movement and 3 RHD balances fairly well against your benefits. I'm comfortable with LA +0.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I probably would have spit my drink out if I had any right now at that image. Well played sir.

[khadgar567]

Triton:

you know besides construct type this beast actually more usefull than his aquatic counter part but still +0 LA for both of them

[Zancloufer]

As for triton we still run into the issue where it is not clear if it can breath air. -0 if it cannot and, honestly, I am not sure it is ultimately worth a +0 even if it does. 3 levels for a tiny pile of stats and a 1/day SLA that does not scale? I can get a better pile of stats for the same price (aside from worse HD).

It's stat boosts are not terrible and outsider RHD are solid. It would make for decent advancement into a skill monkey or a warrior type. Also a Free Unicorn 1/day is probably not going to go out of style for a long while. Neutralize poison and Magic Circle vs Evil don't go obsolete for the most part.

Also they do breath air. Aquatic sub-type says it does not breath air unless it is also amphibious (special quality), but the Water sub-type is called out as breathing both water and air. Though it is interesting that the Aquatic sub-type if amphibious is essentially the same as the Water sub-type except the Water sub-type is "Usually used for elementals and outsiders".

[lord_khaine]

+2 Chainshirt for a huge non-humanoid would be 4950, assuming you do not use the argument that masterwork gets multiplied. If you do then it becomes 6000. That is a lot for +6 AC, even if it activates Wis to AC and that money spent cuts into the money you need to spend to regain the to-hit you are bleeding out.

Thats assuming its not humanoid. It might be a little iffy, but i honestly think a treant is more humanoid than not. And masterwork does not get multiplied, its an ekstra 150 gold over and above the normal cost of that armor. The normal cost of a huge Chainshirt is 400 gold. And its completely and utterly irrellevant if 4550 gold is much for a +6 armor bonus. What is relevant is that its only 300 gold more than what a normal human pc need to pay. And thats an insignificant amount of the WBL for a level 8 PC, around 1 %.

Missing out on that 1 % is not cutting into anything, especially not the money you dont need to spend on a to-hit bonus thats not bleeding out. A treant PC, especially one without a LA adjustment, is well above the curve. It loses 2 points from size, and 2 points from a medium BAB. But it gets a staggering +9 to hit from its strenght.

In the end that still leaves it 5 point above a simular human PC in to-hit bonus alone.

[Thurbane]

Okay, I probably would have spit my drink out if I had any right now at that image. Well played sir.

you know besides construct type this beast actually more usefull than his aquatic counter part but still +0 LA for both of them

You'd think it's land movement rate should be well above 5 feet!

[Zancloufer]

You'd think it's land movement rate should be well above 5 feet!

Pretty sure if you put it in neutral and got out and pushed it the movement speed would exceed 5ft/round.