The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Inevitability]

There are two inevitabilities here: the OP, and the fact that this thing is getting LA -0.

This'd make a great quote to have in the archive. Do I have permission to put it there?

[No brains]

It's funny, you post about the Cadaver Collector and D&D Beyond posts a video about its return to 5e.

Coincidence...? I think so.

[Jormengand]

This'd make a great quote to have in the archive. Do I have permission to put it there?

You do indeed.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, cadaver collectors have an intelligence score already. 5 isn't a lot, but it's enough to function.

Granting one a constitution score somehow would obviously help the breath weapon, but the only way I can think of (Incarnate Construct) also removes all of the useful construct immunities.

You mean Soulbound Construct?

[GreatWyrmGold]

[CENTER]Continuing the trends of descriptive names, grittiness, and cripplingly high numbers of hit dice is the cadaver collector, a construct created specifically to gather bodies for necromancers and golem-builders. To me, that seems like a task that could be performed much more effectively by a couple of strong-stomached peasants, or maybe a handful of animated skeletons, but apparently an enormous construct is the way to go here.

Necromancers specialize in making armies of creatures who can be driven off with one call to the local chapel. I think they tend to prefer style over substance.

Hm...will awakening the golem (and granting it a constitution score) help?

The only template I'm aware of that grants constructs Constitution (incarnate construct) removes special abilities. Sadly.
Yeah, that does kinda turn incarnate golems into ogres with a funky backstory.

You mean Soulbound Construct?

No, we're talking about the Savage Species one.

[Inevitability]

The only template I'm aware of that grants constructs Constitution (incarnate construct) removes special abilities. Sadly.
Yeah, that does kinda turn incarnate golems into ogres with a funky backstory.

Don't forget the highly abusable LA reduction!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Don't forget the highly abusable LA reduction!

Ah, right. I've never seen (or looked for) a way to abuse it, but I'm sure one exists. Especially if there's a template that makes someone a construct for LA +1 or something.

[No brains]

Ah, right. I've never seen (or looked for) a way to abuse it, but I'm sure one exists. Especially if there's a template that makes someone a construct for LA +1 or something.

The only thing I know of is half-golem recursion cheese. I think Green Star Adept PrC can also profit from Incarnate Construct. An Incarnate Loth-Touched Insectoid Warforged is LA+0 (or 1) and has 6 arms with +8 strength.

[flare'90]

Ah, right. I've never seen (or looked for) a way to abuse it, but I'm sure one exists. Especially if there's a template that makes someone a construct for LA +1 or something.

Dustform creature from Sandstorm is an acquired template that transforms the base creature in a construct. It gives +4 Str, -2 Dex, a host of other abilities and LA+2. The only problem is there's no listed way to grant this template.

[Inevitability]

Dustform creature from Sandstorm is an acquired template that transforms the base creature in a construct. It gives +4 Str, -2 Dex, a host of other abilities and LA+2. The only problem is there's no listed way to grant this template.

Flavor text implies that you have to die in the desert and turn to dust which somehow may cause you to reanimate as a dustform being.

[Celestia]

Flavor text implies that you have to die in the desert and turn to dust which somehow may cause you to reanimate as a dustform being.

Disintegrate?

[Inevitability]

Changeling

My prayers for something without RHD have been answered!

Obviously, nobody is going to claim changelings deserve +1 LA, or are too weak for +0, so I won't go into detail about their abilities and traits. They got a decent chassis, a unique and versatile ability, the option to sneak their way into race-exclusive material, and one of the best prestige classes in the game is semi-exclusive to them, so there's plenty of reasons to play a changeling even when the more powerful +0 LA races are on the table.

I'll also use this post to remind people that MM3 isn't a setting-specific book, and changelings therefore aren't either. Use that knowledge wisely.

+0 LA, as stated before.

[Nifft]

[CENTER]Changeling

I'll also use this post to remind people that MM3 isn't a setting-specific book, and changelings therefore aren't either. Use that knowledge wisely.

+0 LA, as stated before.

Changelings are so good at infiltration, they've infiltrated every official setting.

LA +0, in an awesome way.

[ViperMagnum357]

Changeling: no RHD, typical speed and reach for size, +2 saves to a pair of minor statuses, Speak Language is always a class skill, at-will Disguise self as (Su), and another +6 to skills. Not Human/Strongheart Halfing/Whisper Gnome, but plenty respectable.

Verdict: fine at LA +0.

Takes a look ahead

Oh...goody.

[Bavarian itP]

I'll also use this post to remind people that MM3 isn't a setting-specific book, and changelings therefore aren't either. Use that knowledge wisely.

But per RAW (Races of Destiny p.116), they can only take Able Learner and Chameleon "if you're using the Eberron campaign setting"

[Nifft]

But per RAW (Races of Destiny p.116), they can only take Able Learner and Chameleon "if you're using the Eberron campaign setting"

If you use the MM3, you're using Changelings, which means you're using (a tiny slice of) the Eberron campaign setting.

Q.E.D.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Changelings have a special ability which makes them very powerful (though, with proper DM prep, not completely game-breaking) in the right circumstances, and which can be fun to use at other times. Not strong enough to deserve +1, but that just makes them all the more fun to use.

[javcs]

Concur with +0 for Changelings.

Also, I'm pretty sure most DMs aren't even aware of, and would ditch if they were, the line restricting Able Learner and Chameleon to Eberron. There's no real reason for such a restriction (that I know of) in the first place.

[Inevitability]

Charnel Hound

Huge size, 38 strength and Power Attack as a bonus feat all are pretty nifty, the hound's bite and claws deal respectable damage, DR 10/silver and magic is hard to overcome, Unholy Toughness is nice on something with 18 charisma, and Body Integration allows the hound to recover HP when it kills stuff. Rend and Frightful presence are hardly overpowered, but a slight net positive.

However, the same hound also has several severe flaws. It lacks thumbs, takes massive penalties to all important rolls in daylight, and is naturally mindless. Bodily Integration, while at first glance a reasonable source of in-combat healing, only works on humanoids, who aren't known for having lots of HD. Oh, and this abomination also has 21 undead RHD to deal with.

To emphasize how bad the last bit is: it means the charnel hound has +10 base attack bonus at ECL 21. Even if it managed to wield a weapon somehow, it'd get only two strikes with it per round. Its fortitude save is a measly +7 at a level where save DCs regularly reach in the high twenties.

It should be clear that the charnel hound simply isn't competitive at epic levels, and therefore deserves -0 LA.

[Zaq]

21 undead RHD

Next! tencharacters

[ViperMagnum357]

LA -0. Not really worth fixing, honestly-too many inherent problems even if you reduced the RHD.

[AMX]

I suppose one could argue that the Charnel Hound actually has plenty of thumbs... it's just that no reasonable DM would ever let you use them...

But yeah, 21 HD? Pass.

[GreatWyrmGold]

LA -0. Not really worth fixing, honestly-too many inherent problems even if you reduced the RHD.

I'm not sure it's "not really worth fixing". Now, not worth fixing without massive overhaul? I'd agree. Honestly, it would be more like a remake than a tune-up.

[javcs]

Concur. -0.

No point trying to make it playable.

Could maybe use it as a mount or other minion, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be all that hard to find something better.

[Random Sanity]

Might actually be playable if you dumped enough of the RHD to bring them roughly inline with the saves/BAB. And found a way to give it an Int score. Even then, your play options are kind of limited with no hands, light sensitivity, and the usual stigmas attached to being a freakish undead monstrosity.

At least the charnel hound has a few good heads on its shoulders.

[Nifft]

Might actually be playable if you dumped enough of the RHD to bring them roughly inline with the saves/BAB. And found a way to give it an Int score. Even then, your play options are kind of limited with no hands, light sensitivity, and the usual stigmas attached to being a freakish undead monstrosity.

Yeah the abilities could be cool in a smaller, lower-HD base form.

Verdict: LA -- and also yuck.

[Inevitability]

Chelicera

The chelicera (named after those mouth-limbs spiders have), is a medium-sized, 12 RHD vermin, which is just really disappointing overall.

Apart from the details given above (which are bad enough already), chelicera have a mere 14 strength, lack limbs, are naturally mindless, and have the bare minimum of special abilities.

Even at its supposed speciality (grappling) the chelicera performs poorly. Sure, it grapples with its dexterity modifier, and it's got a +4 racial bonus to boot, but ultimately even something like an ogre monk is a better grappler than this thing. Blood Drain is neat, but 1d4 constitution drain matters little on something unlikely to survive the round.

Mimicry is a flavorful ability and definitely unexpected on a mindless spider, but not significantly more powerful than a Wand of Ghost Sound.

Final verdict: -0 LA. What a surprise.

[ViperMagnum357]

Point of order: the Chelicera deals Constitution Drain, not damage, making it more dangerous than at first blush. Also, did they ever FAQ the disease rider on the bite attack? There is mention in the description of the critter preferring nasty areas with poor sanitation, but not crunch on any diseases carried.

Overall, a quick LA -0. Good skill bonuses and a natural climb speed do little to shore up that much Vermin RHD. Net +18 abilities plus mindless do not look that great at ECL 12 minimum. A grapple bonus does little to help a medium sized creature without exceptional reach. Weak natural attack routine and no hands or manipulators = bleh. On the upshot, complete, natural immunity to Sonic is rare and useful, at-will Con drain is not to be underestimated, and hey, free Weapon Finesse. Not enough to salvage it, but at least kinda weird.

[Svata]

Yeaaaah, I don't see anything that would make me want to play this over any half-competent 12th level character. -0. Hard pass.

[javcs]

Yeah, -0, no contest, and nothing interesting enough to make it worth trying to figure out a path to less suckage.

Very much something to throw at players, not to play.
Not even good for minionmancy fodder.