The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[OgresAreCute]

I think once you've removed it from the ground it's not really a pond anymore.

What is really the difference between a hole in the ground and a portable hole?

[Covenant12]

I think Flind is a decent +0. Competes well enough with a water orc barbarian. Skill points are painful, but at least you can afford listen and spot as a rule. Humanoid hit dice are harsh going into ToB classes, but absolutely every stat being better than orc/water orc adds up, and 2 NA to boot. And a special weapon you could consider using. Playable as T3/T4 but nowhere near +1.

Glaistig at -0*. * because you need to avoid the distance from water source thing. Even if you solve that I say -. Not unplayable, but very limited and later ineffective, something to consider but first instinct should be to discourage it. Or buff it by dropping multiple RHD.

[Inevitability]

What is really the difference between a hole in the ground and a portable hole?

One is decidedly non-portable?

[Celestia]

I agree with +0 on the flind. Those RHD do hurt on something with no special abilities, but it is only two. At this point, the ability buffs are nice enough to make it an attractive choice. It's not a clear choice, though, and I am honestly struggling in comparing it with the water orc to see which is better. I guess that means they're equivalent.


In the end, I think I like the flind more for half minotaur and the water orc more for dragonborn.

[liquidformat]

What if a glastig puts its pond in a portable hole?

oh oh I know this one, you suffocate once you close it since the contents is no longer in this dimension and an arbitrarily infinite distance away and close at the same time...

What is really the difference between a hole in the ground and a portable hole?

planar coordinates, the 'hole' inside of a portable hole is a demiplane and the clothe is the door to open it.

[Flickerdart]

3/4 BAB on those 3 HD (these guys are Humanoid right?) puts you 1 BAB behind for prestige class qualifications. That alone is a hard pill to swallow, since you don't get anything special to make up for falling behind.

[ViperMagnum357]

3/4 BAB on those 3 HD (these guys are Humanoid right?) puts you 1 BAB behind for prestige class qualifications. That alone is a hard pill to swallow, since you don't get anything special to make up for falling behind.

2 RHD on the Flind Gnoll. Humanoid RHD are pretty bad, but for a martial you are only 1 BAB behind; so the +12 net abilities, +2 natural AC, and still being a medium Humanoid with 30 ft ground speed is workable.

[javcs]

Concur with +0 for the Flind Gnoll. Two mostly lost RHD, though Spot and Listen as class skills is a good thing.

It's worth noting that unlike many +physical ability score creatures, Flind Gnolls do not have racial penalties to mental ability scores. That's a pretty nice bonus, since it means while you're definitely heavily weighted towards the physical combatant route, unlike most of the low RHD +physical ability score options you aren't totally locked out of alternate options - being behind a full spell level would suck, but going any full caster is within the bounds of practicality (technically), likewise, you'd be passable, though not great, as a skillmonkey type.


Edit: Also, once you stick it (well, enough of it) into a portable hole (or similar), you've just destroyed the pond the Glaistig was bonded to, and it's screwed. Portable holes, even ones filled with water, even ones filled with a sustainable ecosystem, are not bodies of water, far less bodies of water that a fey (or any location-bound entity) can bind to.

[lord_khaine]

So.. the Flint scores better than a human on just about every metric thats important for someone that hurts people for a living.
Conclusion is a clear +1 LA. The 2 Racial HD is not enough of a limit. And the +str is really good.

[Covenant12]

So.. the Flint scores better than a human on just about every metric thats important for someone that hurts people for a living.
Conclusion is a clear +1 LA. The 2 Racial HD is not enough of a limit. And the +str is really good.

I really don't like comparing to human, the bonus feat and skill points are great, but vary a lot in power by build. And it is hard to compare that to a number difference.

Is flind Barb1 competitive with orc Barb4? (let's say regular orc not water orc) Worse skills, -2 to hit, +1.5 damage(assuming 2 hander), 1 less iterative attack 40% of the time, less hps, better AC, orc got his second rage per day. I see that at best a very, very weak +1. A +1 no one would choose compared to a plain orc or a +1 LA race/template designed to beatstick. At +0 it could be better than a (non-water) orc for some builds, but starts off with no hope of skills and missing 2 HD of class features (and we are very much looking at ToB class features). Its a +0 that might actually be taken for some builds, I don't think its overpowered.

[Zaq]

Uuuugh. I guuuuuuuuesssssss we can call the flind +0, but it pains me to say that. I don't think I'd ever play one even at +0, but I'm trying to be aware of my own biases. They truly have no features. They are literally just numbers, and they lose BAB and therefore qualify for stuff later than normal bruisers do.

They aren't unplayable at +0, so I guess we should probably not call them -0, but man are they ever uninspiring. I can't get past the bias that they'd be underpowered compared to a normal bruiser even with the physical stat bumps. But that's mostly because when I build characters that care about hitting things, I always feel constrained by BAB (so many feats and PrCs that promise something slightly more interesting than "I make another basic attack" are obnoxiously gated!), so losing BAB on a character that obviously has to be some flavor of beatstick and not getting any unique abilities in return makes me grind my teeth. I guess they only lose one IL so they're not the worst possible flavor of Crusader or Warblade, but that's because Crusader and Warblade are good, not because flinds don't suck.

[Dimers]

I'll toe the party line and say -0* for glaistig. It's a nice little terror for superstitious medieval mundane hoomins to scare their children with, but doesn't compare well as an adventurer constantly in dangerous situations. In fact, even if your campaign is mostly social, nobody will want to deal with you for fear of having their mind magically influenced.

Flind: Sure, +0, I could see playing one of those in a typical low- or mid-op party.

[liquidformat]

So.. the Flint scores better than a human on just about every metric thats important for someone that hurts people for a living.
Conclusion is a clear +1 LA. The 2 Racial HD is not enough of a limit. And the +str is really good.

So lets compare it to a commonly used +1 bruiser, the Goliath, at ECL 4 the Flind 2rhd/barbarian1 while Goliath is now barbarian 2/warblade 1. Sure the Flind as better base stats then Goliath across the board but what does that actually equate to, better AC, increase in strength makes up for loss of BAB but still does worse damage, less health, and worse saves with the exception of fort. Honestly if I was offered a choice between flind at +1 and any other +1 race with no rhd I would take the +1 race with no rhd without any hesitation. Having 2 humanoid rhd imo is equivalent to a +1 race, since the only thing Flind gives us is its ability bonuses where as most of the +1 race give us other things like powerful build. Having a Flind at 2rhd+1la is not the same as a +1 race it is the same as a +2 LA race and now we are comparing it to things like half dragon and half ogre and it frankly can't hold a candle to them.

[Inevitability]

So.. the Flint scores better than a human on just about every metric thats important for someone that hurts people for a living.
Conclusion is a clear +1 LA. The 2 Racial HD is not enough of a limit. And the +str is really good.

That wasn't the impression I was trying to give. The calculations failed to account for the human's bonus feat (which could mean that said human is using a spiked chain, or raging during every encounter of the day rather than one, or getting Shock Trooper more easily, or anything else a feat could do).

Disregarding the bonus feat, orcs score better than humans on those metrics, too. Half-orcs score better on those metrics too. Hell, even a half-elf is a better barbarian than a featless human.

[Inevitability]

Goatfolk

Behold the ibixian, referred to as 'goatfolk' by other races and referred to as 'discount minotaurs' by jaded LA-assigners.

Let's list the features: three (3) monstrous humanoid HD, +4 strength, +2 constitution, -2 intelligence, -2 wisdom, a 1d6 headbutt, +2 natural armor, greataxe proficiency, a racial intimidate bonus, and a useless ability that only does something when multiple people play a goatfolk.

The stat boosts are only slightly better than a water orc's. The other features would make a kind-of okay class if bundled in a single reasonable HD, as they are now playing a goatfolk means wasting multiple HD on very little.

Conclusion: -0 LA. If you are still set on playing one of these guys, try and talk your DM in just dropping the RHD altogether. The resulting racewill be strong, but not overpowered at +0 LA (in fact, I'm not very sure I'd drop a swim speed and access to Headlong Rush for a headbutt and an intimidate bonus).

[liquidformat]

goatfolk: +2 net abilities, +2 NA, greataxe proficiency, racial bonus to intimidate, horrible natural attack of horribleness, a ex that would still suck if it scaled with number of goatfolk within 30', and to top it all off 3rhd, as far as I can tell goatfolk without any RHD would be a strong +0 or a very weak +1 LA. As is -3 LA.

So -0 LA since -3 isn't a thing...

[ViperMagnum357]

Alright, Goatfolk: 3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD, net +2 abilities, +2 natural AC, a mediocre natural attack, a group (Ex) ability that is only worthwhile if you abuse Leadership, and the kind of skill bonus that is less than half the bonus on a decent race with no LA or RHD, like Whisper Gnome. The only possible recommendations are if your DM allows Leadership with cohorts, in which case the campaign is already borked, or if you reaaally want one of the hardest natural weapons to get in the form of a headbutt.

Even in a natural attack blender for a gestalt/tristalt build, the 1 extra natural attack is not worth giving up your base race slot, let alone 3 RHD. Assign LA -0 with prejudice.

[javcs]

Concur, -0.

Goatfolk are beyond salvage.

[Zaq]

They’re just so . . . dull. Bland. Pointless. No meaningful racial abilities means no mechanical reason to bring them in. Half a page of unremarkable fluff means basically no fluff reason to bring them in. Why do they exist?

I agree that they’re fine if you shave off all the unnecessary RHD. But that isn’t what we’re doing today.

If I want goat-people, I’ll use bariaurs, which are close enough. They’ve got a bit more crunch and definitely more fluff (at least if you count the stuff from 2e Planescape, which you should).

[liquidformat]

Alright, Goatfolk: 3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD, net +2 abilities, +2 natural AC, a mediocre natural attack, a group (Ex) ability that is only worthwhile if you abuse Leadership, and the kind of skill bonus that is less than half the bonus on a decent race with no LA or RHD, like Whisper Gnome. The only possible recommendations are if your DM allows Leadership with cohorts, in which case the campaign is already borked, or if you reaaally want one of the hardest natural weapons to get in the form of a headbutt.

Even in a natural attack blender for a gestalt/tristalt build, the 1 extra natural attack is not worth giving up your base race slot, let alone 3 RHD. Assign LA -0 with prejudice.

Even with leadership the group (ex) doesn't add enough to make it in anyway desirable to ruin a second character. you and every other goatfolk within 30' of you gets a flat +1 bab/damage I would rather choose any other base race and most +1 la races over that. If the group (ex) instead was +1 bab&damage/ goatfolk within 30' then they would be an amazing minion/army race since having 30 of them would allow you to kill anything that they can get within melee range of, but as is the group (ex) is not worth using them for.

[Covenant12]

I don't think Goatfolk are really that terrible. I'm voting -0, but that's -0(somewhat subpar), not -0(unplayable). I'd take water orc or regular orc over this if building an interesting T3 beatstick. Or maybe human or dwarf, depends what I'm trying to do.

Without the racial hit dice (or with only one that is swapped out), very tough call. A couple significant advantages over water orc and a couple minor ones. No weaknesses by comparison. Tiny bit too strong +0 but I guess that's fine in a high-op campaign, or absurdly weak +1. I'd say +0 as DM but I allow and encourage powerful spellcasters, I'd respect the argument its too much for +0.

[liquidformat]

I don't think Goatfolk are really that terrible. I'm voting -0, but that's -0(somewhat subpar), not -0(unplayable). I'd take water orc or regular orc over this if building an interesting T3 beatstick. Or maybe human or dwarf, depends what I'm trying to do.

Without the racial hit dice (or with only one that is swapped out), very tough call. A couple significant advantages over water orc and a couple minor ones. No weaknesses by comparison. Tiny bit too strong +0 but I guess that's fine in a high-op campaign, or absurdly weak +1. I'd say +0 as DM but I allow and encourage powerful spellcasters, I'd respect the argument its too much for +0.

With no RHD and all else the same they wouldn't be a horrible mook choice they hit hard and are very robust and put them in a group and the ex gives them a slight edge. They would definitely be at the high end of +0 but at that point comparable to aasimar.

[Inevitability]

Goblin, Forestkith

WotC Hates Goblinoids IV: Is This Joke Still Funny?

Every goblinoid I've rated so far could be fixed by removing all LA, then slapping on a minus sign if there were RHD left. The forestkith goblin is no different in that regard.

As far as ability adjustments go, +2 dexterity and -2 intelligence are moderate at best, and Small-size means a lot of the classes that'd benefit from such adjustments aren't really practical. Similarly, weapon familiarity with nets is kind of disappointing when they don't work against stuff bigger than a human. Discordant Frenzy is another useless ability, because it requires at least three forestkith goblins attacking together. Last of the non-useful abilities is Light Sensitivity, AKA: "the 5 GP drawback".

That said, forestkith goblins aren't without their merits. Their climb speed actually bypasses a number of common low-level obstacles, their natural bite is nifty, +1 natural armor is better than nothing, and they have a very unique and interesting ability in Tree Shape.

Said ability allows the goblin to turn into a plant for 12 hours once per day. The downside is that unlike the spell of the same name, it can't be ended prematurely, unless the sun sets or the plant takes damage. Even so, one should be able to get some use out of this ability.

The forestkith goblin suffers from a number of problems, but ultimately has enough interesting abilities to stave off -0 LA. At the same time, it's hardly worth the +1 LA currently assigned to it. With that in mind, I'll assign +0 here.

[ViperMagnum357]

Forestkith Goblins: Net +0 abilities, +1 natural AC, Small size with 30 ft land speed, 20 ft climb speed, 1 weapon familiarity, 1 (Su) that is not as good as it appears at a glance, weak bite attack, and capped with a minor weakness in Light Sensitivity. However, they get solid skill boosts, amounting to +10 general and another +12 situational, which is little much for something without LA or RHD.

Overall, I am leaning towards a fairly strong LA +0. Like the disappointing base Goblin, it is small with 30 ft land speed, but this thing also has a climb speed, a double handful of skill bonuses and breaks even on ability adjustments, plus some extras. Not on the level of a Whisper Gnome or Strongheart Halfling, but a lot closer to them than most small races.

[DeTess]

It's no water orc, but it seems mostly in line with PHB races. +0 LA seems fine.

[Zaq]

"Neutral" stat mods (still not good on many characters, but technically neutral), nothing particularly interesting about the size or speed (technically 30' is "high" on a Small critter, but it's not unique and it's barely noticeable as a balancing factor), a climb speed, fairly specific skill boosts, +1 NA, and a SLA (technically supernatural) that is technically slightly higher level than usually available at ECL 1 but that comes with some very unusual downsides. Net familiarity and discordant frenzy are negligible, and we all know how to deal with light sensitivity.

I'm comfortable calling this +0. It's not overpowered in any meaningful way, and while it's not really especially strong, it's not hamstrung by a pile of useless HD, so it's probably pretty much balanced with most unremarkable +0 races. It's the kind of race where your racial choice matters significantly less than your class choice even in the medium run, to say nothing of the long run, so there's no need to mark it as drastically too weak or drastically too strong. The only thing that's really noteworthy is the climb speed, but I'm pretty sure there are races that even WotC calls +0 that have a climb speed, aren't there? Jungle goblins, for one.

[javcs]

My reaction to the forestkith goblin is "meh".
I'll concur with +0. On the weaker side, though, I think.

[Luccan]

I had been thinking about doing a Goblinoids only game when I discovered these guys. I have no idea why you'd want to play one, unless there were at least 2 others in the party. Their abilities scream "ambush all encounters" to me, but their version of tree shape doesn't actually support this. I guess the idea is they turn into trees until the sun sets and hunt at night? They're just so underwhelming, clearly made to be low-level NPCs. I think their abilities require some preparation to get a lot of use out of. I'll agree to +0, they aren't the worst, they're just not great.

[Efrate]

Very much a plus 0. At least more inspiring than a half elf in a vacuum.

[ExLibrisMortis]

+0 seems fine for the forestkith goblin. Decent option if you want a climb speed on a dex build, and every other aspect of them is insignificant.

Note on the skill bonuses mentioned by ViperMagnum: The +8 Climb of that total is part of having a climb speed, just like a swim speed is paired with +8 to Swim. The remaining bonuses are all small or situational.