(3.5) Critique Some Class Features for an Upcoming Campaign

[wayfare]

I am running a e10 campaing in a few weeks, and I've re-worked the Fighter class so it has a few more bells and whistles. This isn't intended as a comprehensive fix -- I just wanted to give the class a few more combat styled tricks (without going ToB).

Anyway, here are the features:

Level 1: Weapon Mastery: The Fighter gains the benefits of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for a single weapon.

Level 3: Flurry: When making a full attack, the fighter can make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but all attacks he makes suffer a -2 penalty.

Level 5: Masterstroke: The fighter automatically confirms all criticals.

Level 7: Footwork: The fighter can move up to half his speed in the same round he makes a full attack.

Level 9: Decisive Strike: When the fighter lands a critical hit, his attack inflicts maximum damage.

[DracoDei]

Master-stroke is going to lead to a lot more ability to get lucky and kill (or at least drive off) stuff that is way more powerful than the character should be able to handle, since regardless of AC vs BAB it only takes one natural 20 to deal a significant amount of damage. This may or may not be a problem to you.

Footwork needs to be spelled out a bit more... do they have to make the attacks in order? It certainly means that they should at least get a rebate on Spring Attack when they hit this level if they took that feat (and they should count as having it regardless of if they ever took it, for purposes of meeting other feat/PrC requirements etc).

Decisive Strike Compounds the situation with Master-Stroke, especially if they target Constitution (since that costs the target hitpoints). You may see a a small but significant chance of a fighter with Weapon Mastery(Scythe), Power Attack, and maybe even a 1 level cleric dip for the Luck domain granted power.

[Fable Wright]

I can see one problem with this set-up: Fighters power attacking for full at 5th level, flurrying, with Haste, and a Falchion. Or just Master Stroke, 18-20 crit range, and Weapon Mastery working together.

[wayfare]

I think the weapon mastery may go a bit to far by including Improved Critical.

Masterstroke doesn't really bother me too much, as its a nice way to give fighters bonus damage that makes sense with regards to their abilities.

Decisive Strike...i just don't know. I like the ability damage, but it seems like it might be way too powerful.

As for footwork, I just want to grant fighters the ability to move 15 feet and still be able to make a full attack i the same round. Should I word it differently? I thought is was pretty clear...

Thanks for the responses.

[DracoDei]

Level 7: Footwork: The fighter can move up to half his speed while making a full attack.

As for footwork, I just want to grant fighters the ability to move 15 feet and still be able to make a full attack i the same round. Should I word it differently? I thought is was pretty clear...

Change the word I underlined to "before" or "before or after" and you should be in the ball-park if I am NOW understanding you correctly. This keeps Spring Attack a useful feat (although not quite as much as in a normal game, but that is neither here nor there).

Thanks for the responses.

You are welcome.

[wayfare]

Made changes to Weapon Mastery, Footwork, and Decisive Strike.

[Veklim]

Not a bad idea, but you're gonna have to keep an eye on anyone going 2wf or using high crit weapons (or both, like I would, because I'm naughty). The sheer amount of damage which could be thrown out in a round by level 6 is pretty huge!

You may see a a small but significant chance of a fighter with Weapon Mastery(Scythe), Power Attack, and maybe even a 1 level cleric dip for the Luck domain granted power.

nuff sed.

[DracoDei]

nuff sed.

He did nerf this a bit when he dropped Improved Critical from Weapon Mastery.

[Dryad]

So.. At third level, this fighter can effectively dual-wield greatswords ánd benefit from Weapon Specialization?

Hmm.. Let's say Str. 18, greatsword, lvl 3, power attack.
That's two attacks per round, each one dealing 2d6+8 damage, each one at a +6 modifier. Now; if you would use even one point of Power Attack, that is +5/+5, both attacks dealing 2d6+10 damage.
Now; let's go even further: Human fighter. First level: 3 feats. Second level: 1 feat. Third level: 1 feat. We've already used up power attack, sure, but without power attack, you're looking at +6/+6, 2d6+8/2d6+8 an five feats to back that up even further.
-Power Attack
-Cleave
-Reckless Attack
-Something else.
-Something else.

At level three.

No offence meant, but.. Isn't this set-up horribly overpowered?

[Veklim]

He did nerf this a bit when he dropped Improved Critical from Weapon Mastery.

!?!

Fair enough then.

This has actually nudged my head again about another project I half started on paper years back (dual shield wielder concept that actually works I hope), I may well reference this for inspiration.

[wayfare]

So.. At third level, this fighter can effectively dual-wield greatswords ánd benefit from Weapon Specialization?

Hmm.. Let's say Str. 18, greatsword, lvl 3, power attack.
That's two attacks per round, each one dealing 2d6+8 damage, each one at a +6 modifier. Now; if you would use even one point of Power Attack, that is +5/+5, both attacks dealing 2d6+10 damage.
Now; let's go even further: Human fighter. First level: 3 feats. Second level: 1 feat. Third level: 1 feat. We've already used up power attack, sure, but without power attack, you're looking at +6/+6, 2d6+8/2d6+8 an five feats to back that up even further.
-Power Attack
-Cleave
-Reckless Attack
-Something else.
-Something else.

At level three.

No offence meant, but.. Isn't this set-up horribly overpowered?

It makes the fighter pretty darn good at fighting, but simply being good at combat is rarely the defining characteristic that counts as OP. A rogue at level 3 gets a +2d6 backstab that they will most likely be able to activate every round. By level 10 the same rogue is getting 2 attacks a round (possibly 3 with twf) all of which can potentially add 5d6 damage.

I don't think its really OP...but I could be wrong.

@Veklim: Rock it. I live to serve.

[ericgrau]

The thing about boosting damage is that fighters already have plenty already and that isn't really helping. The level 3-9 abilities will each make him pretty ridiculous there yet without fixing anything. That said, I like the first ability that gives them the boring damage boosters for free. That frees up feats for more interesting build choices. If you wanted to take this a step further you could give away the whole fighter tree and perhaps the ranger combat style feats away for free as well. That'd be a power boost to be sure but nothing nearly as bad as what you're proposing and it'd encourage a wider variety of interesting feats rather than having a 1 trick pony.

[wayfare]

The thing about boosting damage is that fighters already have plenty already and that isn't really helping. The level 3-9 abilities will each make him pretty ridiculous there yet without fixing anything. That said, I like the first ability that gives them the boring damage boosters for free. That frees up feats for more interesting build choices. If you wanted to take this a step further you could give away the whole fighter tree and perhaps the ranger combat style feats away for free as well. That'd be a power boost to be sure but nothing nearly as bad as what you're proposing and it'd encourage a wider variety of interesting feats rather than having a 1 trick pony.

Flurry is pretty powerful, but in an e10 game, were talking about 3 attacks a round. Its not even like the monk flurry that reduces penalties over level advancement.

I might be wrong here, but I thought that most fighter fixes absolutely required something that increases tactical movement (a-la footwork).

As fior the whole 1-trick pony thing, I think I might have given the wrong idea in my original post. These abilities are in addition to fighter bonus feats. The class progression would look like:

Level 1: Weapon Mastery
Level 2: Bonus Feat
Level 3: Flurry
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5: Master Stroke
Level 6: Bonus Feat
Level 7: Footwork
Level 8: Bonus Feat
Level 9: Decisive Strike
Level 10: Bonus Feat

[ericgrau]

"1 trick pony" means a typical fighter build, though it's an exaggeration. By increasing his options you could make him into a "2 trick pony"; i'm not saying you're decreasing them as-is. My idea was to give out the existing boring damage feats for free like your weapon mastery, rather than new damage abilities, essentially leaving more feats for other things.

I meant that the abilities listed are basically damage, damage and more damage, which is both dull and unnecessary. Fighters already have plenty. The decision to move and single attack or full attack, while watching out for the enemy full attack perhaps by letting him come to you, actually increases tactical decisions I think. Pounce or similar essentially removes tactical movement decisions while giving yet another source of extra damage.

[wayfare]

Well, don't fighter bonus feats mostly just give you new way to do damage? If you give the ranger options, you are just giving new ways of dealing damage. Or if you give the tree of fighter specializations, its just more ways of doing more damage.

Nevertheless, It seems like flurry and decisive strike may be too much. Any class features I could use to replace things with? Perhaps Mettle or Evasion?

[Dryad]

Maybe grant one free 5-ft step each round? That's bound to help...
Or grant options where the Fighter can actively protect weaker members of the team, are able to draw the enemy in a position where rogues can more easily sneak attack, add dirty tricks to the mix that blind or otherwise obstruct the opponent for a short time...
There's all sorts of thing a fighter can do. But I agree: Fighters deal plenty damage as it is.
(Also, rogues deal lots of d6's as sneak attack damage, but their flat damage bonus is relatively low. Sneak attack damage is pretty RNG, and the only reason it can keep up with fighter damage is because a rogue can pump out a large number of sneak attacks each round. Paired with the rogue's absolute requirement of ganging up on an opponent with another melee character, and being extremely ill-suited to single out an enemy by herself, the Rogue simply isn't a melee powerhouse at all.)

[ericgrau]

Yeah think of tricks like that. The only reason I suggested free fighter and ranger tree feats is because they're feats, meaning the fighter can't take them twice and his only options remaining are non-damage feats. Instead of my convoluted approach you could simply give the fighter tricky things directly.