LGBTAitp 34: <3!!

[Coidzor]

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Bollocks and poppycock! Happily ever after only happens when you find that particular complementary person and you both believe it and work at it. It doesn't just magically come to anyone. Find it, grab it by the short hairs, and don't let go!

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My understanding is that your spin on it is not what happily ever after means in the conventional sense. Even your personal interpretation leaves a lot of room for strife, hardship, and struggle.

[SiuiS]

I have been thinking about this and I am not sure I agree with all of that. I think gender bias can be very problematic. If you say "girls and x and boys are y (which is cromosome-coded for your convenience)" then that implies if you're not y then you're not a boy.

Yes. That should probably have been X is masculine an Y is feminine.

There's plenty of things people say are y that I am not (most in fact), is that supposed to tell me I'm not a boy? It's not that I mind being a girl (maybe I am and that's my problem?) but I'd rather not have my gender identity defined by others due to gender biased traits.

It wouldn't be. You're equating things too far. Hammers are carpentry tools, but having a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter. You're doing exactly what I said shouldn't be done. This proves it's rather innate though.

You could argue, I suppose, that things are masculine and feminine, but that boys are not by default masculine (which would be true) and girls not by default feminine (again true) but then what is the point with categorizing things in masculine and feminine in the first place? To me, stereotypes doesn't work. They are broken when I find just one person who doesn't fit. That tells me they are wrong and can't be applied. Is it important to some people to be defined as either man or woman? Obviously! But does that necessarily mean it is important to define what a man or a woman is or isn't? No I don't think so.

Coding can be utilized. I can agree that we need to remove the stigma from feminine things, but I don't agree we should remove feminine as a trait. I Kinda literally need it, for example. .

But in order to better have something to discuss from, how about we define what those x and y that girls and boys (respectively) are? What IS masculine and feminine? Can I see a list (that could include anything you want from character traits, appearance, interests and socialization customs)? While it is interesting to discuss categorization as an ideal the problem may also be that the categorise that we use are different so defining them seem to be a constructive starting point.

No, of course not. Leaving it open ended is the point. Something that's feminine code for me (either in my eyes or performed by me and in the eyes of others) might be neutral or masculine for other folks. Codifying leads to quantifying. That's the problem.

[Asta Kask]

So... is the statement "humans have 46 chromosomes" also problematic?

[Lentrax]

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My understanding is that your spin on it is not what happily ever after means in the conventional sense. Even your personal interpretation leaves a lot of room for strife, hardship, and struggle.

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anything worth having is worth going through that strife, Coid. Strife defines happiness. The struggle makes the good times better.

[Coidzor]

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anything worth having is worth going through that strife, Coid. Strife defines happiness. The struggle makes the good times better.

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What does that have to do with an observation that "happily ever after," is either being misapplied to a normal life with strife and tribulation or a fairy tale lie in order to wrap up a story for children?

Seriously. Saying "Oh, it is happiness without any strife because the strife makes everything better," has got to be the biggest load of hooey I've heard in a long while.

You think I don't understand that life is struggle? No, life is pain, anyone who says differently is selling something.

And look at that, Disney and feel-good fairy tales are most certainly selling something.

[Sparkify]

So a game I like (Exalted) recently announced a Dereth Eclipse. Eclipse is a solar caste, and the Dereth are a small group within the southern Delzhan that choose to be viewed as the opposite gender by their culture. The Delzhan have very strict gender roles, but they don't care what your sex is, as long as you choose one side of the gender binary. So pretty much every signature character (5-6 for each exalt type [~8], and a handful of others) has been heteronormative and cisgender with the exception of a couple minor characters. There's also a joke that everyone in Exalted in bisexual. But this is the first major character that is not cis, and it's pretty awesome. He has a lot of fans within the community already and it's not just cause he's trans :p thought I'd share this

[Lentrax]

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What does that have to do with an observation that "happily ever after," is either being misapplied to a normal life with strife and tribulation or a fairy tale lie in order to wrap up a story for children?

Seriously. Saying "Oh, it is happiness without any strife because the strife makes everything better," has got to be the biggest load of hooey I've heard in a long while.

You think I don't understand that life is struggle? No, life is pain, anyone who says differently is selling something.

And look at that, Disney and feel-good fairy tales are most certainly selling something.

And that's what I get for reading the whole conversation before joining in...

Classic foot in my mouth.

[Mina Kobold]

Did I mention that I live in a third world country where being gay is not really a crime, but it's very close?
Not a lot of chances to find someone.

I know I sound stupid when I say this, but a small chance is better than no chance. While I agree that you should not make all happiness dependent on something that you might not get, you can still look for opportunities and take those you find. It is true that you may never find someone even if you do all you can, but it is also true that you definitively won't find anyone if you give up entirely. For that matter, there is also the chance that your circumstances change, considering the changes in Europe, Australia and North America in just a few decades.

It may not be much, but could it be a small hope?

[Philemonite]

I know I sound stupid when I say this, but a small chance is better than no chance. While I agree that you should not make all happiness dependent on something that you might not get, you can still look for opportunities and take those you find. It is true that you may never find someone even if you do all you can, but it is also true that you definitively won't find anyone if you give up entirely. For that matter, there is also the chance that your circumstances change, considering the changes in Europe, Australia and North America in just a few decades.

It may not be much, but could it be a small hope?

I live in Serbia, so very small, but thank you.

[Lorsa]

Yes. That should probably have been X is masculine an Y is feminine.

I am confused now. You said yes but then you change them back to non-chromosome-coded again? It really doesn't matter though so not sure why I even comment on it. My mind works in mysterious ways.

It wouldn't be. You're equating things too far. Hammers are carpentry tools, but having a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter. You're doing exactly what I said shouldn't be done. This proves it's rather innate though.

Am I? You said specifically it was ok to have statements like "carpenters have hammers" which implies not having a hammer makes you not a carpenter. Having a hammer says nothing about you, it is the absence of that proves something.

Coding can be utilized. I can agree that we need to remove the stigma from feminine things, but I don't agree we should remove feminine as a trait. I Kinda literally need it, for example. .

It would be very interesting to learn more about how you think and feel in this matter. Is it possible to explain to me why feminine as a trait is so necessary for you? Would being masculine make you (or anyone) any less of a woman? I am not aiming to critique you (or anyone), I just wish to understand (because only by understanding others can we become more accepting and open-minded).

No, of course not. Leaving it open ended is the point. Something that's feminine code for me (either in my eyes or performed by me and in the eyes of others) might be neutral or masculine for other folks. Codifying leads to quantifying. That's the problem.

I am somewhat confused by this. You are saying it is good to have feminine codifying on a subjective level but not objective? And I think you need to explain the problem to me again...

Nevertheless, I would find it interesting to know what things you considering feminine vs masculine even if it is simply your own views. If we can't put words and define the meaning of the words then I would argue their relevance? It's about communication yes?

So... is the statement "humans have 46 chromosomes" also problematic?

It's not problematic if you consider one of my friends to not be a human. The people suffering from mono or tri+ -somy would then be what? Transhuman?

[KenderWizard]

I would go with "Humans typically have 46 chromosomes".

Lou not only makes me think of a man, but a fat man wearing a windbreaker and a gold chain who possibly owns an unpopular night club or a mismanaged fast food franchise.

That's ... oddly specific.

Yay more Synesthesiests! (yes, it's a word now) :)

If I can ask, what colour(s) do you two associate with "Darren" and "Lily" as names?

The real word is Synaesthetes. "Darren" is an earthy brown and "Lily" is pink and white.

For the synesthesiests here, I'm curious about what y'all see with my given name and my name. If you could tell me, that'd be great! *is curious about everything* Also, if you could post your replies in spoilers, and not read other Synesthesiests' responses until after yours is posted, I'd like to see if there's a pattern because science. :3

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Birth name: Joseph Lynn
My name: Karen Lynn
Nested spoiler, last name.

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McCullough

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Joseph: sandy brown
Lynn: yellowish, but not very strong ... maybe closer to amber
Karen: purples
McCullough: greenish
Karen Lynn McCullough: overall greenish with white

Edit: Here's a good redesign of 2D Merida to look more like movie teenage Merida and less like a slim, sexy adult woman cosplaying as Merida.

[Absol197]

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

I was at a good friend's graduation party (my ex-girlfriend, actually). According to her and her brother (my best friend) her dad isn't incredibly comfortable around LGBT people and there were a lot of other people I don't know very well there, so I was being subtle with my presentation, so I was expecting a lot of "he"s and such from people who I'm not out to, but...

At one point, a lot of the college-age crows was around the table playing Apples to Apples, and one of the guests came over to give a gift to the graduate. The gift was a very expensive (and pretty) pair of earrings. She didn't have her ears pierced, so it came up that it might finally be time for her to do so.

And then someone commented that, "All the other girls at the table have pierced ears!" Of course, I don't. People started confirming this with everybody there, and not a single one of my friends even looked at me. No subtle glances, nothing. They were looking for "girls at the table," and I was not included in that for any of them. Which basically says that they don't consider me a girl, and any time they refer to me as one it's just because they're just humoring me. And as always, the only time I see my friends is when we're at a large gathering, and so I don't feel like killing the mood, so I disn't say anything. How can I possibly explain how I'm feeling to them when the only time I have to do so?


~Phoenix~

[Kittenwolf]

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

I was at a good friend's graduation party (my ex-girlfriend, actually). According to her and her brother (my best friend) her dad isn't incredibly comfortable around LGBT people and there were a lot of other people I don't know very well there, so I was being subtle with my presentation, so I was expecting a lot of "he"s and such from people who I'm not out to, but...

At one point, a lot of the college-age crows was around the table playing Apples to Apples, and one of the guests came over to give a gift to the graduate. The gift was a very expensive (and pretty) pair of earrings. She didn't have her ears pierced, so it came up that it might finally be time for her to do so.

And then someone commented that, "All the other girls at the table have pierced ears!" Of course, I don't. People started confirming this with everybody there, and not a single one of my friends even looked at me. No subtle glances, nothing. They were looking for "girls at the table," and I was not included in that for any of them. Which basically says that they don't consider me a girl, and any time they refer to me as one it's just because they're just humoring me. And as always, the only time I see my friends is when we're at a large gathering, and so I don't feel like killing the mood, so I disn't say anything. How can I possibly explain how I'm feeling to them when the only time I have to do so?


~Phoenix~

*Hugs the Phoenix*

Yeah, that's kinda sucky :(
Honestly though, I doubt they were dismissing you or 'just humouring you' at other times.
I'd like to think it had more to do with the fact that you were presenting at male (unfortunately), and they knew you weren't out to everyone and didn't want to risk drawing any attention to you.

Still not fun :(
Of course, you know what you need to do now don't you? Go along with your friend when she gets hers done, as "moral support", and get yours done too :D

[Iruka]

For the synesthesiests here, I'm curious about what y'all see with my given name and my name. If you could tell me, that'd be great! *is curious about everything* Also, if you could post your replies in spoilers, and not read other Synesthesiests' responses until after yours is posted, I'd like to see if there's a pattern because science. :3

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Birth name: Joseph Lynn
My name: Karen Lynn
Nested spoiler, last name.

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McCullough

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As I mentioned before, only vowels are coloured for me, so they define how a word looks for me. Consonants remain the colour they are printed. Now that I think about it, the colour of a vowel corresponds to how it sounds.

So Joseph is mostly black from the o with the e in bright green standing out, while Karen is a lively mix of yellow and green. Lynn is a reddish pink from the y. Your last name is a mixture of black and dark violet. Dark but not unfriendly. The round shapes of C and g might have an influence on that last impression. And the fact that violet was my favourite colour for a long time.

Whenever synesthesia comes up, I wish I would see more colours, especially from music.

[noparlpf]

I think I multiquoted too many things catching up and dropped some...ah well.

Brave: I'm not surprised she's been inaugurated as an official Disney princess. Hell, if anything, it's a good step. More Mulans and Meridas and eventually we'll push out Cinderella and Snow White on the other end.

Eh, maybe. The issue is with the drawings they're using for that.

We're back to microproblematic vs macroproblematic. No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting dressed up pretty once in a while. Hell, I sometimes wish it was socially okay (and practical) to wear really nice dresses for everyday occasions. But when the only message coming out of Disney is "girls have to be princesses in sparkly outfits", and they hide the more proactive messages of characters like Merida and Mulan and force them into that role too, that's a problem. It's only problematic in aggregate. It's macroproblematic, not microproblematic. (I think I got those to the right way round.)

Yeah, this.

So I'm debating announcing that I'm bi on Facebook. Most people I know would likely be supportive. I'm also fairly active in my church, or was until I went to college and will be again. So that might be a problem. And most people who's opinion I actually care about know. It'd just let the extended family know (which I will be sounding out how they feel with my parents first, just in case) as well as various people I don't see that often. Anybody see a downside I'm not?

I'd say go for it. Good luck.

Well, I know a girl called Robin. And I know that there are lots of neutral names but it doesn't help if they are (mostly) male or female coded here (or if I simply don't like them).

– Juniper (trying the new sweater name)

I've only ever met female Robins (in the New England area) and only like, two.

Today is a crappy day.

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After about 7 unanswered massages I told my ex that he didn't have to ignore me, he could have just said he doesn't want to stay in contact and that I will not bother him anymore. That was about a weak ago, and this morning I started thinking about him. I remember when we spent a few days at my grandparents last fall. It was the last time I saw my grandmother before she died. I just feel like crap since I know that it's all over. I don't know, maybe I just thought we would stay friends. Maybe because that was my only relationship that lasted longer then two months. And the tv hates me. I just watched Friends, the episode where Ross and Rachel brake up(first time). On top of that I stated watching Grey's Anathomy from the start, and that is bad since I identify with Meredeth, and I think that I'm also dark and twisty (or scary and damaged).
Anyway, that's my rant for this week, hope you enjoy it.

Aww. I'm sorry to hear that. Breakups suck. It'll get better eventually.

You did! Yes, exactly.

And no, it's not like they're changing the movie, a child can still go watch Brave and get all the awesome messages, but if they then want a Brave backpack or a Brave pencilcase or a Brave toothbrush, they'll be shown the "upgraded" Merida, with sparkles and make up and a thinner waist. As I said, I've no issue with Merida being an official marketed Disney Princess (tm), but the change to make her more princessy tells children, and specifically girls, "All that stuff about not wanting to conform to feminine beauty ideals is well and good, but it'll still happen. Merida is going to get all made-up and sparklified and have her hair brushed neatly, and smile prettily about it, even though she doesn't want that. She has to do it anyway to be allowed join the Princess club, and the Princess club is obviously what she _really_ wants." And children do pick up on those things.

Disney are getting better at showing a range of options for Princesses. I mean, they still don't show the actual range of women, but they're inching towards it. But when it comes to marketing, all the Princesses are in pretty dresses and smiling happily but demurely with careful hair and plenty of make-up. It'd be better if, as someone suggested, they got their props, and they got to wear -- sparklified if necessary -- the clothes the characters actually chose to usually wear. Mulan's armour or at-home clothes, Merida's normal dress (not a ballgownified version of it) and her bow and arrow, Belle's normal dress, etc.

I would rather have them as they actually look. That would be good, and not subvert the messages of the shows like this kind of does.

So... is the statement "humans have 46 chromosomes" also problematic?

Even in something as dry as a textbook I'd probably say something like "humans normally have 46 chromosomes (see section whatever on aneuploidy for exceptions)".

I would go with "Humans typically have 46 chromosomes".

Yeah.

Edit: Here's a good redesign of 2D Merida to look more like movie teenage Merida and less like a slim, sexy adult woman cosplaying as Merida.

Huh. A humanoid torso. A recognisable face. No cleavage. Well, it's something. I'd still add the bow back in.

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

I was at a good friend's graduation party (my ex-girlfriend, actually). According to her and her brother (my best friend) her dad isn't incredibly comfortable around LGBT people and there were a lot of other people I don't know very well there, so I was being subtle with my presentation, so I was expecting a lot of "he"s and such from people who I'm not out to, but...

At one point, a lot of the college-age crows was around the table playing Apples to Apples, and one of the guests came over to give a gift to the graduate. The gift was a very expensive (and pretty) pair of earrings. She didn't have her ears pierced, so it came up that it might finally be time for her to do so.

And then someone commented that, "All the other girls at the table have pierced ears!" Of course, I don't. People started confirming this with everybody there, and not a single one of my friends even looked at me. No subtle glances, nothing. They were looking for "girls at the table," and I was not included in that for any of them. Which basically says that they don't consider me a girl, and any time they refer to me as one it's just because they're just humoring me. And as always, the only time I see my friends is when we're at a large gathering, and so I don't feel like killing the mood, so I disn't say anything. How can I possibly explain how I'm feeling to them when the only time I have to do so?


~Phoenix~

That stinks. You might talk to them about it, if it's a big issue. Hopefully it's just, you weren't presenting as really female, so that's why.

[Coidzor]

I can only shudder at the thought of whatever synthaesia would glean from my name.

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

I was at a good friend's graduation party (my ex-girlfriend, actually). According to her and her brother (my best friend) her dad isn't incredibly comfortable around LGBT people and there were a lot of other people I don't know very well there, so I was being subtle with my presentation, so I was expecting a lot of "he"s and such from people who I'm not out to, but...

At one point, a lot of the college-age crows was around the table playing Apples to Apples, and one of the guests came over to give a gift to the graduate. The gift was a very expensive (and pretty) pair of earrings. She didn't have her ears pierced, so it came up that it might finally be time for her to do so.

And then someone commented that, "All the other girls at the table have pierced ears!" Of course, I don't. People started confirming this with everybody there, and not a single one of my friends even looked at me. No subtle glances, nothing. They were looking for "girls at the table," and I was not included in that for any of them. Which basically says that they don't consider me a girl, and any time they refer to me as one it's just because they're just humoring me. And as always, the only time I see my friends is when we're at a large gathering, and so I don't feel like killing the mood, so I disn't say anything. How can I possibly explain how I'm feeling to them when the only time I have to do so?


~Phoenix~

I'm sorry your experience got ruined by all of that.

I don't know what you mean by subtle, exactly, but it sounds almost like your friend asked you to go to this event presenting as a male so that the father-beast wouldn't have a cow and cause a scene or give her(and probably you) a huge amount of grief. So there's potential that between that and others following her lead that things could have a less awful root.

I don't know how you've discussed things with your friends, but there also seems to be the potential for a confused belief that if you present as male overtly then they're supposed to use male pronouns in order to help you keep up your cover or what have you.

So, there's some room for some level of cautious, partial pseudo-optimism. Maybe.

As for getting to the bottom of it... I assume correspondence can work for at least enough people to serve as a litmus test of the rest of the group.

And that's what I get for reading the whole conversation before joining in...

Classic foot in my mouth.

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I know that feeling far too well, myself. x.x

Sorry for going full-on hostile for a moment there.

[Absol197]

*Hugs the Phoenix*

Yeah, that's kinda sucky :(
Honestly though, I doubt they were dismissing you or 'just humouring you' at other times.
I'd like to think it had more to do with the fact that you were presenting at male (unfortunately), and they knew you weren't out to everyone and didn't want to risk drawing any attention to you.

Except that's not what it was. The lady said, "EVery other girl here has pierced ears," and everyone's mind went to a quick 2-step process: 1) Find girls; 2) Assess ears. It was that look that you can see where people are focusing on something. Two of the three of them present did it (the third was paying attention to something else), and neither of them looked at me once. They were looking for girls, and I wasn't part of that group. If they had thought of me that way but were being discreet because of my presentation, I would have expected at least a glance in my direction, and a split second or two while they processed that they needed to filter information. But no, it was: 'girl, peirced; girl, pierced; girl, pierced; Hey, you're right!" I wasn't included in the process at any point, nor was there any indication that they realized they left me out afterwards. It's possible they might have thought of it afterwards and just didn't mention it, but I didn't see it.

Still not fun :(
Of course, you know what you need to do now don't you? Go along with your friend when she gets hers done, as "moral support", and get yours done too :D

But I don't want to get my ears pierced! But otherwise it's something to consider...

That stinks. You might talk to them about it, if it's a big issue. Hopefully it's just, you weren't presenting as really female, so that's why.

I'm having a lot of trouble finding time to talk about it. Text or e-mail don't feel right for discussing something so important (and make an actual conversation hard), and as I mentioned, every other time I see them is when we've got a short time and everyone there is there to have fun. Ruining our one meeting of the week for everyone else seems rude of me.

I'm sorry your experience got ruined by all of that.

I don't know what you mean by subtle, exactly, but it sounds almost like your friend asked you to go to this event presenting as a male so that the father-beast wouldn't have a cow and cause a scene or give her(and probably you) a huge amount of grief. So there's potential that between that and others following her lead that things could have a less awful root.

They didn't ask me this time. We discussed it before the Super Bowl party they had in February. And this was my friend's graduation party, so I didn't want to take the moment away from her by making it also my "coming out to a lot of her friends and family" time.

And no one was following anyone's lead in this instance. Lots of people were looking around for girls with earrings. Heck, I even did it too. It was just a really fast thing, and I wouldn't have expected anyone who I wasn't out to to have included me in that, but the people I was out to didn't do it, either.

As for getting to the bottom of it... I assume correspondence can work for at least enough people to serve as a litmus test of the rest of the group.

I don't really understand what you're saying here...

...

And then things keep going the same way. My work was giving out free polo shirts last week, and I picked up a women's shirt. I actually really like it, because it really flatters my figure. My dad and I picked my mom up from the airport, then we took her out to dinner. I was wearing that shirt and some shapely jeans, working on both my posture and voice. I thought I might just pass enough. But no, our server called me "Sir." I read a bit deeper into it than that, but I won't go into that now.


~Phoenix~

[FallenEco]

Asteron Questar:

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Thanks for the hugs, but I'm not sure I believe in that anymore.
Did I mention that I am working this weekend, and that people are particularly annoying today?
And the guy I am texting with just told me he is not ready for a relationship, but we can be friends with benefits.
That means that this day sucks triple. Yay.

I didn't say it would be easy. But having a negative attitude will only make things worse. If you keep thinking like this, you'll miss the opportunity to change things around and have a good one.

That said, I completely understand the level of suckage you're going through. I've had weeks like that. The thing is, they always end sometime.
Don't give up yet, ok?

Did I mention that I live in a third world country where being gay is not really a crime, but it's very close?
Not a lot of chances to find someone.

Okay, so there is even more suckage. But how will throwing in the towel help? *hugs*
Happy Endings aren't easy to get. Even the best of them are a work in progress. Such is the way of the real world. You don't have to sacrifice your happiness or your principles but work towards them everyday.
Life is pain, but that doesn't mean it's not worth it. Same goes for love.

Absol197:

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Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

I was at a good friend's graduation party (my ex-girlfriend, actually). According to her and her brother (my best friend) her dad isn't incredibly comfortable around LGBT people and there were a lot of other people I don't know very well there, so I was being subtle with my presentation, so I was expecting a lot of "he"s and such from people who I'm not out to, but...

At one point, a lot of the college-age crows was around the table playing Apples to Apples, and one of the guests came over to give a gift to the graduate. The gift was a very expensive (and pretty) pair of earrings. She didn't have her ears pierced, so it came up that it might finally be time for her to do so.

And then someone commented that, "All the other girls at the table have pierced ears!" Of course, I don't. People started confirming this with everybody there, and not a single one of my friends even looked at me. No subtle glances, nothing. They were looking for "girls at the table," and I was not included in that for any of them. Which basically says that they don't consider me a girl, and any time they refer to me as one it's just because they're just humoring me. And as always, the only time I see my friends is when we're at a large gathering, and so I don't feel like killing the mood, so I disn't say anything. How can I possibly explain how I'm feeling to them when the only time I have to do so?


~Phoenix~

*hugs* I am sorry. And yes, I do hate it.
What's worse, they probberly didn't even know they hurt you. I am sorry. But I think Neo_Leviathan was right. I'm sure if you had chat with them, they'll give you the same sort of thing. Reassurance.

[Kittenwolf]

Except that's not what it was. The lady said, "EVery other girl here has pierced ears," and everyone's mind went to a quick 2-step process: 1) Find girls; 2) Assess ears. It was that look that you can see where people are focusing on something. Two of the three of them present did it (the third was paying attention to something else), and neither of them looked at me once. They were looking for girls, and I wasn't part of that group. If they had thought of me that way but were being discreet because of my presentation, I would have expected at least a glance in my direction, and a split second or two while they processed that they needed to filter information. But no, it was: 'girl, peirced; girl, pierced; girl, pierced; Hey, you're right!" I wasn't included in the process at any point, nor was there any indication that they realized they left me out afterwards. It's possible they might have thought of it afterwards and just didn't mention it, but I didn't see it.

SOD :(
*Mega Hugs*

Definitely something that needs to be brought up with them, find out what they were thinking and where they stand and stuff. Maybe send an email to the party-girl going "I need to talk to you about something, when can I ring you or meet you?", and then ask why things went down the way they did.
This is definitely something you need to discuss with her, and if you'd rather not do it at a social outing, this might be the best option.

Also.. I know it's hard, but try not to read too much into things? It can be really hard to reprogram your automatic responses even for something as simple as someone changing their name. Changing the way you instinctively react to someone's gender isn't going to be easy for the other girls.
It's not nice and it's not right and it's not an excuse, but brains are hard things to change at times.

But I don't want to get my ears pierced! But otherwise it's something to consider...
~Phoenix~

Interesting. Why is it that you don't want to get your ears pierced? (not asking that in an "Oi! Why not?!" way, genuinely curious.

You could always jokingly go to your friend "So you're getting your ears pierced, does that mean I'm supposed to now as well?". Still lets you go 'I'd rather not', but the idea will be put into her head and you can see the reaction.

*More kitty hugs*

[TaiLiu]

Except that's not what it was. The lady said, "EVery other girl here has pierced ears," and everyone's mind went to a quick 2-step process: 1) Find girls; 2) Assess ears. It was that look that you can see where people are focusing on something. Two of the three of them present did it (the third was paying attention to something else), and neither of them looked at me once. They were looking for girls, and I wasn't part of that group. If they had thought of me that way but were being discreet because of my presentation, I would have expected at least a glance in my direction, and a split second or two while they processed that they needed to filter information. But no, it was: 'girl, peirced; girl, pierced; girl, pierced; Hey, you're right!" I wasn't included in the process at any point, nor was there any indication that they realized they left me out afterwards.

Perhaps your friends already processed this information, and decided to utilise it at that moment.

It's possible they might have thought of it afterwards and just didn't mention it, but I didn't see it.

Hm. What is there to see?

I'm having a lot of trouble finding time to talk about it. Text or e-mail don't feel right for discussing something so important (and make an actual conversation hard), and as I mentioned, every other time I see them is when we've got a short time and everyone there is there to have fun. Ruining our one meeting of the week for everyone else seems rude of me.

An additional meeting, perhaps? You could tell them that you wish to convey important information to them, and to ask if they could all agree to meet on a singular day. Maybe you could entice them by mentioning food.

And then things keep going the same way. My work was giving out free polo shirts last week, and I picked up a women's shirt. I actually really like it, because it really flatters my figure. My dad and I picked my mom up from the airport, then we took her out to dinner. I was wearing that shirt and some shapely jeans, working on both my posture and voice. I thought I might just pass enough. But no, our server called me "Sir." I read a bit deeper into it than that, but I won't go into that now.

An unfortunate event. Have you isolated the reasoning behind the label?

[SiuiS]

I am confused now. You said yes but then you change them back to non-chromosome-coded again? It really doesn't matter though so not sure why I even comment on it. My mind works in mysterious ways.

Because the change was not chromosomal (lettering is done strictly to my sense of aesthetic, evaluate as a narcissistic unicorn i am the rubric for my conversations. u_u) it was changing the variable from either male or female to masculine or feminine.

Am I? You said specifically it was ok to have statements like "carpenters have hammers" which implies not having a hammer makes you not a carpenter. Having a hammer says nothing about you, it is the absence of that proves something.

Someone not having a hammer doesn't mean they aren't a carpenter, it means they don't have a hammer. Period.

That's why the change to masculine/feminine from male/female. If a person says they are a woman and they have one or two masculine traits they are still probably a woman. The addition or subtraction of traits does not change them, it helps your perception to a degree. Which is fine.
Judging them for how well their desired reception matches your new of their presentation is not.

It would be very interesting to learn more about how you think and feel in this matter. Is it possible to explain to me why feminine as a trait is so necessary for you? Would being masculine make you (or anyone) any less of a woman? I am not aiming to critique you (or anyone), I just wish to understand (because only by understanding others can we become more accepting and open-minded).

Because they are traits three decades of congenital disorder forced me to give up and I want them back. If you go and change the system so they dot matter anymore then it's ashes in my mouth.

I am somewhat confused by this. You are saying it is good to have feminine codifying on a subjective level but not objective? And I think you need to explain the problem to me again...

It's a large and loose system based on four parts near a so can tell; what you say, how you say it, what I hear and how I receive it. If you are Male and you are showing off several traits, there are different criteria for judging; societal personal, social, immediate/ephemeral. If you are demonstration traits which society where you are says are Masculine, but I read them as feminine, what's the damage?

None. I just read you as having feminine traits. Someone else may get a different read from you and that's fine.

Nevertheless, I would find it interesting to know what things you considering feminine vs masculine even if it is simply your own views. If we can't put words and define the meaning of the words then I would argue their relevance? It's about communication yes?

It's actually an issue many transgender people seem to have! A cis woman can present several Y traits (masculine) and be read as female with masculine traits. A trans woman needs to present fewer Y traits because of coming from a different angle, seemingly. The whole snarled mess starts dipping into sovereignty, privilege, and sexism really fast. Removing the stigma – that possession of traits can diminish if those traits are not expected for the core – would remove a lot of the teeth from that. It's still confusing, but less soul crushing.

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

Ouch. >_<

That's understandable but not desirable. I think you should consider the amount of 'whining' you've done with your friends recently on any an all topics, and weigh whether or not telling them via email "hey guys, we need to talk" is going to be received as Whiny or Serious Business.

Because frankly this isn't going to stop until you monkey wrench their gears. And right now, as of this moment, you've actively chosen to toeture yoursel with something that saps all joy out of life rather than maybe tell someone they are being rude. That's a fine choice, if not the one is counsel, but only if you make it willingly. Do not let in division decide for you, luv. No good comes of it.

Except that's not what it was. The lady said, "EVery other girl here has pierced ears," and everyone's mind went to a quick 2-step process: 1) Find girls; 2) Assess ears. It was that look that you can see where people are focusing on something. Two of the three of them present did it (the third was paying attention to something else), and neither of them looked at me once. They were looking for girls, and I wasn't part of that group. If they had thought of me that way but were being discreet because of my presentation, I would have expected at least a glance in my direction, and a split second or two while they processed that they needed to filter information. But no, it was: 'girl, peirced; girl, pierced; girl, pierced; Hey, you're right!" I wasn't included in the process at any point, nor was there any indication that they realized they left me out afterwards. It's possible they might have thought of it afterwards and just didn't mention it, but I didn't see it.

I suggest you do what I do! Because narcissist :P
Play it up. Someone says all the girls have pierced ears, say "not all of us. Next you'll be saying we can't wear pants!" And let them take it as a joke.

And after a few jokes of a particular nature, folks will begin connecting dots. For some this will be an "oh, he... Uh, she... Uh, Phoenix is transsexual?" And for others it will just subtly reinforce the sympathetic connections between you and the Girl-o-sphere in people's mind-spaces.

And then things keep going the same way. My work was giving out free polo shirts last week, and I picked up a women's shirt. I actually really like it, because it really flatters my figure. My dad and I picked my mom up from the airport, then we took her out to dinner. I was wearing that shirt and some shapely jeans, working on both my posture and voice. I thought I might just pass enough. But no, our server called me "Sir." I read a bit deeper into it than that, but I won't go into that now.

Mm. I would say, let the server off. They are under a lot of pressure to say the right thing in the weirdest ways. They also aren't allowed to question because that's potentially harassment, and must play to the crowd. If the server had called you miss and your mother said something, that could be their job. Plus with the social cues the server was getting from your parents, who are a little more actively hostile than some...

Retail and food is a paranoid place. I wouldn't fault someone for trying to maintain a meager living.

[Lauren]

The real word is Synaesthetes. "Darren" is an earthy brown and "Lily" is pink and white.

Hee, Lilypad, I told you you should get the pink collar! *ducks and runs*

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?[/COLOR]

Yes, and if you'd like here's a hug, because that sounds tremendously sucky.

[Kittenwolf]

Hee, Lilypad, I told you you should get the pink collar! *ducks and runs*

But it wasn't even a *nice* pink collar! It was.. tacky.

And given everything that's happened over the last few months, I think I prefer just Lily now to Lilypad :)

[Heliomance]

Merida's creator isn't happy about the makeover either.

[Lea Plath]

Hey all! So it is my birthday today! I accept cash, cheque and the skulls of my enemies as tribute :3

Anyway. I've been doing some more reading and urgh. People just don't get stuff. I've found one person arguing that objectifying women is feminist cause it is sexuality.

Anyway, I know a lot of people need hugs at the moment, so... *hugs everyone but gives Karen extra hugs!*

[Mono Vertigo]

*hugs to Asteron and Phoe and Karen*


@Helio: it's reassuring that I did not just imagine things. That was indeed distinctly not how I remembered Merida (granted, I only saw her on posters and trailers, but still).


@Lea: Happy birthday~ !

[Lycunadari]

If I can ask, what colour(s) do you two associate with "Darren" and "Lily" as names?

Darren is dark brown with a bit of dark red around the a. Lily is white and yellow.

You're always going to have Lucy, it'll always be there. As a person who both changed their name and who has a similar form of synaesthesia, I totally get you! My old name is still here. Well, it's still on some forms and my bank account and stuff, so obviously, but it's also still in me, you know? You won't ever hear "Lucy" and it only be someone else's name.

I was going to suggest Lou as a gender-neutral name, but I really like Juniper (weirdly, it's a green-yellow for me!) so I approve of you trying it on.

Yes! Thank you! Names are Becoming. Each new appellation doesn't diminish the old. They are intimate secrets you share with other circles, masks and forms and rituals and observances. They serve as a way to channel the form a flow of the grandeur that is a being. But they are merely a filter; you can swap them out as needed.

Thank you, that made me feel a lot better.

For the synesthesiests here, I'm curious about what y'all see with my given name and my name. If you could tell me, that'd be great! *is curious about everything* Also, if you could post your replies in spoilers, and not read other Synesthesiests' responses until after yours is posted, I'd like to see if there's a pattern because science. :3

Spoiler

Show

Birth name: Joseph Lynn
My name: Karen Lynn
Nested spoiler, last name.

Spoiler

Show

McCullough

Spoiler

Show

Joseph: dark brown, Lynn: yellow-green, Karen: orange, Mc: dark red, Cullough: dark blue.

Don't you hate it when happy occasions are ruined by something incredibly small?

~Phoenix~

*hugs*
Maybe you don't even need a long talk, maybe your friends just need a small reminder that you are indeed a girl? It takes time to change your way of thinking about a person but they wont change if you don't tell them to.
When my sister finished the wonderful picture she painted for me and put it on her blog, she first wrote "for my sister" and used female pronouns for me. When I asked her to change it, she apologized and said that it will need some time till she internalizes it. And that's okay, because I still go with female pronouns in German so she doesn't have many occasions where she could use non-gendered language for me. But I'm glad I asked her to change it on her blog because that was a good occasion to remind her that I'm not her little sister anymore even if I present as female and use female pronouns.
*hugs again*

– Juniper

[Iruka]

Hey all! So it is my birthday today! I accept cash, cheque and the skulls of my enemies as tribute :3

Happy Birthday, Lea!
I'll immediately start collecting some skulls.
Wait, skulls of your enemies? ... That makes it a bit harder.

Anyway. I've been doing some more reading and urgh. People just don't get stuff. I've found one person arguing that objectifying women is feminist cause it is sexuality.

Crocodile is vegetarian because it is yoghurt? Whut?

[Astrella]

I let things pile up a bit too much again, so even though I'm not directly commenting on anything, still plenty of well-wishes for everyone. (Also happy birthday, Lea!)

Oh, honey. ((hugs)) If anything, you being so invested and taking time to get to know your drugs and options makes you a better patient, not a worse one. I hope you feel better about it soon.

I heard back from her, and apparently I was already going to be starting on Progynova, the safer form of E. I must have misheard her with how fast the session passed by. >.> But I should be getting scripts for that and anti-androgens sometime this week then.

-----

I also went shopping for new shoes with my mum yesterday, which I was a bit nervous about cause I didn't want boyish shoes, but I managed to find some nice neutral Converses which I quite like.

-----

Also had a good conversation with my therapist about my anxiety issues and other things last Friday.

[The Succubus]

Happy Birthday Lea! Does this mean you'll be biting birthday cake instead of Playgrounders today?

@Lycun - just for future reference, what pronouns and names should I use to address you in future? =)

And for all those that have been having a tough time of late - *hugs*

****

Lena linked me Venus Envy the other day and I spent most of Sunday trawlling through the archive. It was really eye opening about what it's like to be a transwoman and all the difficulties you come up against. It's a shame the comic has kind of stalled but it was still very sweet in places. ^_^