MitD XIV: High In Protean

[3Power]

Because no-one has given me one.

Grey Wolf

Starvation and malnutrition as a reason for stunted growth has been suggested as a narrative explanation for his reduced size.

This kind of gets down to the issue I have with a lot of the posts critical of elements of this thread, like the FBS. The arguments against them are always hypothetical-- "Well, what if we find a creature that breaks these criteria but fits perfectly otherwise?" Great, if you find one, I'll gladly listen and if it's a better fit than anything before, I'll change my vote. But until then I'm going to stick with what I think is the best fit for what we've seen.

Nothing will ever be a better fit though, since the flaws with the FBS monsters are ignored and every little inconsistency, even those with explanations are used as dealbreakers for new challengers.

[Squire Doodad]

Starvation and malnutrition as a reason for stunted growth has been suggested as a narrative explanation for his reduced size.

I have no clue as to how MitD would be suffering from starvation. Even if they didn't feed him at some point, he would happily eat lots of things sitting around that aren't babies. Even if it was leftover popcorn and left out chicken on the spit.

Malnutrition is also unlikely but does make sense given it's hard to say what the proper diet for an obscure entity like MitD is.

Neither of these feel like they would realistically cut down his size enough to fit the presumed purposes. Seriously stunted growth that doesn't result in death can seriously shrink something, but a) they would both still have size penalties and probably extra penalties from stunted growth and b) it still feels very off for explaining anything over the size of huge. It kind of feels more like a handwave or off-brand duct tape on a plot hole than an actual explanation.

MitD being particularly small/his dad is very large for their kind in part because of diet is a wonderfully novel concept, but personally it feels like it wouldn't help anything that already has a way over the size and strength issues.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MitD being particularly small/his dad is very large for their kind in part because of diet is a wonderfully novel concept, but personally it feels like it wouldn't help anything that already has a way over the size and strength issues.

It also has no dramatic weight to it. Like you said, it's just a duck-tape explanation, and one that can apply to anything, rather than a specific species above all others, and one that has no connection to MitD as a character (yes, he's hungry and has no taste, but he's not starving).

It also makes no sense mechanically or biologically. If you are so starved you are a tenth of your adult size, you are also so starved you are dead. And there is a template for "starved and grown in captivity" - dungeonbred. And all it does is reduce your size by one step (as well as take away strength and the like), not reduce a gargantuan creature to Medium size.

Grey wolf

[3Power]

I have no clue as to how MitD would be suffering from starvation. Even if they didn't feed him at some point, he would happily eat lots of things sitting around that aren't babies. Even if it was leftover popcorn and left out chicken on the spit.

So.... He can't be hungry because he eats everything in sight? I think you've got your cause and effect mixed up there.

It also has no dramatic weight to it. Like you said, i's just a duck-tape explanation, and one that can apply to anything, rather than a specific species above all others, and one that has no connection to MitD as a character (yes, he's hungry and has no taste, but he's not starving).

When did opinions become facts?

[catagent101]

Speaking of dungeonbred, Rich has kinda confirmed he wrote it in the February Q&A. One of the chapters he said he wrote for Dungeonscape is chapter 5 and that contains the dungeonbred template (Link To WoTC Preview). Update to section 2d?

[Ruck]

Nothing will ever be a better fit though

Possibly. Maybe there are no better fits to be found. This thread has done extensive research for what, a decade, maybe more? It was well underway when I signed up here five years ago.

since the flaws with the FBS monsters are ignored

Not true; even those of us who think one of the FBS monsters is the fit for MITD have gone to great length to explain how its flaws could still fit without breaking any mechanical rules.

and every little inconsistency, even those with explanations are used as dealbreakers for new challengers.

Also not true. Just because your pet pick has so many things that don't fit that it's largely not being taken seriously doesn't mean no new suggestions will be considered.

[3Power]

Also not true. Just because your pet pick has so many things that don't fit that it's largely not being taken seriously doesn't mean no new suggestions will be considered.

I'm sure they will considered just as seriously as my "pet pick.

[Crusher]

Nothing will ever be a better fit though, since the flaws with the FBS monsters are ignored and every little inconsistency, even those with explanations are used as dealbreakers for new challengers.

The Cons aren't ignored! They're listed in the descriptions of the monsters themselves!

And it *SHOULD* be hard to get a monster on the FBS list! They can't *all* be winners, because the whole point of the FBS list is that its manageable in size. If they weren't rigorously challenged it would just look like the "Proposed" list. I've probably proposed 20+ monsters, all of which were ones that had either solid answers or at a hand-waving argument for everything on whatever the criteria list was at the time.

From the Black Troll (fiendish, unusually strong troll that for no apparent reason can cast Teleport w/o Error) to Crystalle (which would be a heck of a good fit if it wasn't an elemental) to the Klurichir (which is still the one that haunts me, as I found a version that was strong and tough enough but didn't have the right Teleport and another version that COULD explain the Escape scene but wasn't strong enough). They ranged from being semi-decent to truly excellent candidates, I put together the best argument I could for each of them, and almost without exception they were all shot down because they weren't quite good enough.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be *impossible* to get monsters onto the FBS list. And you know what? Its not impossible. The FBS version of the ANB made it onto the list. It wasn't born there. The case was put together, the arguments were made, and it got voted onto the list. Because that's how it works.

Its not impossible to get things onto the list, its just very difficult (I'm like 1.5 out of 25 or so) in part because different people weigh things differently (as you can tell from the results of the votes). I personally don't think the Hunting Horror is that great a candidate, but its not up to me, or GW_c, its up to the community collectively. And the community liked it, so its in. I may quibble with the community's specifics, but I can't quibble with the results. We know its correctly calibrated for deciding the FBS list because we have about the right number of FBS monsters.

Edit - And, finally, its worth repeating that the FBS list is NOT the list of monsters the community thinks is most likely to be the MitD. We don't know what MitD actually is, so we're in no position to make that particular judgement. Instead, the FBS list is, as the name literally says, the candidates which best "Fit the Big Scenes". We collectively decided what the big scenes/tests were, and then collectively picked the ones that passed those tests the best. That's it. And, has been said, we even only did that (and, iirc, didn't GW_c object to having them?) so that new folks would have an idea of what good candidates looked like rather than slowly wading through Centaurs and Barghasts.

This might seem a little odd, but the American judicial system works the same way. As was famously noted by the Supreme Court many years ago, whether or not an accused person is *actually* innocent or guilty isn't really the point. What matters is whether it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you did whatever you're accused of. If the jury thinks it was proven to that standard, then you get punished. If not, then you go free. Whether you're *actually* guilty is beside the point because its unknowable (unless you're omniscient or, in our case, The Giant). Kind of a similar thing.

[3Power]

The Cons aren't ignored! They're listed in the descriptions of the monsters themselves!

Something can be posted publicly and still ignored.

Edit - And, finally, its worth repeating that the FBS list is NOT the list of monsters the community thinks is most likely to be the MitD. We don't know what MitD actually is, so we're in no position to make that particular judgement. Instead, the FBS list is, as the name literally says, the candidates which best "Fit the Big Scenes". We collectively decided what the big scenes/tests were, and then collectively picked the ones that passed those tests the best. That's it. And, has been said, we even only did that (and, iirc, didn't GW_c object to having them?) so that new folks would have an idea of what good candidates looked like rather than slowly wading through Centaurs and Barghasts.

Except the ha-naga is a good candidate currently wedged between a call of cthulu monster and a half-giant, so clearly the system isn't working.

Also this is the current write up for the ha-naga:

Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric".

No mention of access to Earthquake, glowing eyes, knowledge and spellcraft ranks, damage reduction, nor its lack of any listed language. Filled with subjective opinions like "Not particularly vomit inducing" as though that was the only reaction that mattered, as opposed to Oona considering it beastlike or the one guy considering it beautiful. Presenting lack of limbs as a downside instead of an explanation for why he would have difficulty pulling. Stating an opinion on what changes Rich made to the creatures stats as fact, and injecting a personal opinion about how a throwaway line by redcloak means the MiTD can't cast spells.

Meanwhile, the Protean entry still makes no mention of its access to every language in existence, it's most damning flaw. Oh, but let's be sure to link Ruck's essay in there just in case anyone criticizes its eyes being inconsistent.

The community doesn't even understand what they're voting for.

[Kastor]

Has the Chronotyryn been discussed before?

I dont see it on the proposed list, but i dont want to go on a dump only to find out its old news

[hamishspence]

Has the Chronotyryn been discussed before?

I dont see it on the proposed list, but i dont want to go on a dump only to find out its old news

Once, ages ago:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=454

It's rather low on Str (26) and "not surprising it can speak".

[Kastor]

Once, ages ago:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=454

It's rather low on Str (26) and "not surprising it can speak".

Yeah, the STR is a bit low, but looking into it, it otherwise has many things going for it.
Common isnt even one of its standard languages. And its a bird. Why would anyone assume it could talk?
Familiars notwithstanding

[ArkenBrony]

Something can be posted publicly and still ignored.

Except the ha-naga is a good candidate currently wedged between a call of cthulu monster and a half-giant, so clearly the system isn't working.

Also this is the current write up for the ha-naga:


No mention of access to Earthquake, glowing eyes, knowledge and spellcraft ranks, damage reduction, nor its lack of any listed language. Filled with subjective opinions like "Not particularly vomit inducing" as though that was the only reaction that mattered, as opposed to Oona considering it beastlike or the one guy considering it beautiful. Presenting lack of limbs as a downside instead of an explanation for why he would have difficulty pulling. Stating an opinion on what changes Rich made to the creatures stats as fact, and injecting a personal opinion about how a throwaway line by redcloak means the MiTD can't cast spells.

Meanwhile, the Protean entry still makes no mention of its access to every language in existence, it's most damning flaw. Oh, but let's be sure to link Ruck's essay in there just in case anyone criticizes its eyes being inconsistent.

The community doesn't even understand what they're voting for.

You know, I think you have some valid points, I personally believe it's the protean and have a rationale for why the language thing doesn't matter. but instead I want to assume that the ha-naga is the one and see what it's got going for it

OK, let's go down the big scenes.

1. explanation for the escape: yes, which is great cause so few things fit it this well
2. explanation for the tower: defenses definitely, strength not so much with size reduction however it's possible it used a spell. and while we don't necessarily believe that's how it was done, it is a solution.
3. explanation for the circus: kinda. the wizard would probably recognize a naga, and an explicitly beautiful face in a world where animals with human faces are expected doesn't really fit with vomit inducing. but the chameleonic scales are really cool and the charming gaze is nice too, so i'd take it.
4. not an impossible category
5. existed before 100
6. size is no bigger than huge (I'll get back to this)
7. is vulnerable to mind affecting spells

so the last several pages have been colossal (pun intended) debacle. and there have been a lot of justifications for what the rule means and why it's there.

we have all mostly agreed the the mitd as it currently is is medium or large, and that there have been many comments about it being smaller than a full grown version, so we set it to huge to assume that half size is probably what most creatures do for growth. the exception to the rule has been dragons, and some people have brought up crocodiles. I'm here to bring up snakes, which seem, in a very quick google search, to grow about 8ish times their body length in their life. which is exactly the differential from large to colossal. if we include the fact that nagas can fit in a size smaller than they suggest, and that despite the epic level handbook not including that rule there's apparently another one that does.

so it's totally viable that the ha-naga could have a young version that can fit in the box. and while we can only assume that that would totally tank its strength, we also have a possible explanation with spellcasting.

one of the detractions against the ha-naga is it's access to cleric spells which invalidate an offhand comment that redcloak made, or do they? if it has spells like a sorcerer than there's a totally plausible reason he doesn't have animate dead, and redcloak's comment is still accurate.

I, personally, think that spellcasting is a bad solution because if you accept that anything he does could be from spellcasting than the guessing game seems less fun to me. but it's a much better choice than many in the proposed list. and i think it's at least possible, and maybe deserves in the fbs, or perhaps there should be another category so that people can see the maybe's as well.

[Quebbster]

Once, ages ago:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=454

It's rather low on Str (26) and "not surprising it can speak".

Heh. I see the ha-naga was deemed "not a great fit" ten years ago. It's tempting to thread dive and read what was said then...

[Kastor]

So i've looked into Chronotyryn to see how it fits up, and i've gotten the following:

Pros:
-Large size fits in the box/umbrella as child, and some adults can grow up to Huge
-Strange yet beautiful appearance
-Has access to 6th level Sorcerer spells and lower
- Also has SLA's, including Teleport Without Error
-DR20/+3 may explain "tickling"
-High innate knowledge(arcana) and (planes) may explain both understanding of ritual and astral plane
-Alignment is listed as "Usually Lawful Evil", leaving room for sway
-No immunity to Mind Effecting Spells
-Sonic Screech ability may explain "Stop!"
-Common is not a typical language choice

Cons:
-Strength is a bit lower than usually accepted at 26
-Damage bonus is only +8
-Earthquake can only be explained by convoluted interpretation of Mold Earth spell
-MiTD has no indication of dual brain or dual voice
-no indication of great hunger or ability to consume large quantities
-Access to Sorcerer spells also gives access to Animate dead, running counter to redcloak's comment

All of which is to say, I think it has some reasonable matchups, but feels like a contrived fit for the remainder.
Would be nice to see that MiTD is a bird, but no vote for me

Edit: Source, {scrubbed}, published for 3.5 in 2003, page 33
Listed DR in this source is workable, i think the dr 15/magic is from a pathfinder version?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

2. explanation for the tower: defenses definitely, strength not so much with size reduction however it's possible it used a spell. and while we don't necessarily believe that's how it was done, it is a solution.

No, it is not. MitD did not cast a spell in that scene, he set the rules, it makes no sense he'd boost his strength, and it makes no sense he'd call for it to be a hitting game if he was going to use a spell.

I'm here to bring up snakes, which seem, in a very quick google search, to grow about 8ish times their body length in their life. which is exactly the differential from large to colossal. if we include the fact that nagas can fit in a size smaller than they suggest, and that despite the epic level handbook not including that rule there's apparently another one that does.

MitD is not a newborn. Any line of logic that starts with "well, if MitD is the size of an embryo" is not a valid reasoning to why he is small (unless, of course, you have something in the monster description itself that says "born only an inch long, and taking over a century to grow X feet, they are capable of full spellcasting since birth" or the like... which is not the case for a Ha-Naga).

one of the detractions against the ha-naga is it's access to cleric spells which invalidate an offhand comment that redcloak made, or do they? if it has spells like a sorcerer than there's a totally plausible reason he doesn't have animate dead, and redcloak's comment is still accurate."

"can also cast cleric spells and spells from the domains of Chaos and Evil as arcane spells"

I, personally, think that spellcasting is a bad solution because if you accept that anything he does could be from spellcasting than the guessing game seems less fun to me. but it's a much better choice than many in the proposed list. and i think it's at least possible, and maybe deserves in the fbs, or perhaps there should be another category so that people can see the maybe's as well.

No. I will not further divide the categories. It serves no purpose other than having to then deal with people like 3powers that will fight for their ideas to be moved to yet another category.

Edit - And, finally, its worth repeating that the FBS list is NOT the list of monsters the community thinks is most likely to be the MitD. We don't know what MitD actually is, so we're in no position to make that particular judgement. Instead, the FBS list is, as the name literally says, the candidates which best "Fit the Big Scenes". We collectively decided what the big scenes/tests were, and then collectively picked the ones that passed those tests the best. That's it. And, has been said, we even only did that (and, iirc, didn't GW_c object to having them?)

No, the small subset of best fits was my idea, and I still like the concept for what it is meant - i.e. help ease newcomers into the thread. I don't want it to have less than 6 nor more than 12 creatures, and I'd rather get rid of it entirely than to create a tier system of lists (usually, suggested in the form of "each scene gives a point" or the like), but I think having an easy list for perusal is important.

So i've looked into Chronotyryn

Link/book of publication, please?

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

The ANB was not published before MITD was decided, and we may not even have accurate information on what was actually published (if it was published-- there was some doubt about that in this very thread last week). Time travel is impossible; a monster that does not exist generating itself with a guessable stat block equally so. (I also think the ANB's stat block is flatly not strong enough for the terrifying creature MITD is supposed to be-- really, only the Protean and Uvuudaum are, in my opinion.)

Remember that Rich was a splatbook author, so it is entirely possible (although staggeringly improbable) that the author of this book showed it to Rich before it was published, and Rich thought it would be pretty cool to use a yet-unpublished monster in his comic.

That being said, however, I think you're right: I read the Terror of Athas and the ANB was not published there. The author must have decided against including it, because the book just says to used the one from the MM2. Maybe the MitD was a 2.0 edition ANB who never got converted over? That would explain why the Big Game Hunters were surprised to see him, because all the other monsters who weren't converted are in Durokan's dungeon.

(I don't actually think that, I'm just being Devils Advocate. I do not think the MitD is an ANB)

This kind of gets down to the issue I have with a lot of the posts critical of elements of this thread, like the FBS. The arguments against them are always hypothetical-- "Well, what if we find a creature that breaks these criteria but fits perfectly otherwise?" Great, if you find one, I'll gladly listen and if it's a better fit than anything before, I'll change my vote. But until then I'm going to stick with what I think is the best fit for what we've seen.

I agree, and I was not trying to be critical of the thread at all. I totally understand why the community put a size limit on the monster. I was just pointing out that a monster growing several size categories isn't unheard of, even though it is unlikely that any would fit the criteria to be included here. That is also when I thought the limit on his size category was Large, which I thought was a bit limiting. However I now understand that the limit is Huge which I think would be sufficient enough to include any possible candidates.


EDIT:

From the Black Troll (fiendish, unusually strong troll that for no apparent reason can cast Teleport w/o Error) to Crystalle (which would be a heck of a good fit if it wasn't an elemental) to the Klurichir (which is still the one that haunts me, as I found a version that was strong and tough enough but didn't have the right Teleport and another version that COULD explain the Escape scene but wasn't strong enough). They ranged from being semi-decent to truly excellent candidates, I put together the best argument I could for each of them, and almost without exception they were all shot down because they weren't quite good enough.

I looked up the Klurichir. The Strength is 29, so not technically high enough but close enough to fudge it. However I don't see any explanation for the Earthquake.

It did, however, give me a good idea. I thought of searching realmshelps.net for creatures that can teleport without error. However it is a much bigger list than I expected. Still, it'll give me something to do in my free time. Search



Edit 2: already found a new one. Not a FBS contender but a pretty decent match nonetheless.

Primus.

1. Can Cast Teleport without Error at-will
2. Strength of 38. DR 50/Epic
3. Looks like a guy with a funny helmet. Probably wouldn't cause people to throw up.
4. I dont think Outsiders are impossible categories
5. Has been around since 1e
6. Size Huge
7. Immune to mind control

He also has access to Earthquake at will, which explains the escape scene with Belkar and Haley.He also doesn't speak so it explains the Big Game Hunter scene, too.

[Schroeswald]

Remember that Rich was a splatbook author, so it is entirely possible (although staggeringly improbable) that the author of this book showed it to Rich before it was published, and Rich thought it would be pretty cool to use a yet-unpublished monster in his comic.

That being said, however, I think you're right: I read the Terror of Athas and the ANB was not published there. The author must have decided against including it, because the book just says to used the one from the MM2. Maybe the MitD was a 2.0 edition ANB who never got converted over? That would explain why the Big Game Hunters were surprised to see him, because all the other monsters who weren't converted are in Durokan's dungeon.

(I don't actually think that, I'm just being Devils Advocate. I do not think the MitD is an ANB)

We’ve been talking about 2.0 ANB in this thread a bit now, we should probably check if it actually fits as well the unpublished ANB, and If it does maybe consider swapping them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We’ve been talking about 2.0 ANB in this thread a bit now, we should probably check if it actually fits as well the unpublished ANB, and If it does maybe consider swapping them.

The problem is that there is a NB (in the proposed list, even) in 3.5 which is already the update of the 2.0 ANB. If we discard the 3.5 ANB, then as per strip #1, it's the other that would take precendence.

(and honestly, maybe we should discard 3.5 ANB; the further we get from that post - a post, I remind all, no longer exists, I had to copy it into this thread for preservation when the D&D forums where turned off - the less likely it feels it could be it. Yes, Rich couldn't have known the beta version wouldn't be published, but that cuts both ways: he must know better than any of us how often a cool creature doesn't make it to a manual, so it seems unlikely he'd have picked an unpublished one for MitD on the hopes it'd be published in the following year)

1. Can Cast Teleport without Error at-will

(self plus 50 pounds of objects only), which doesn't explain the escape, sorry. But it does have wish.

3. Looks like a guy with a funny helmet. Probably wouldn't cause people to throw up.

Agreed

4. I dont think Outsiders are impossible categories

They are not. They don't need to eat or sleep, but can if they want to, so no issues there.

It doesn't sound like there is more than one of these guys, though, is there? Not sure "one of these" fits very well for uniquely named creatures, especially not ones called "The One and the Prime".

Grey Wolf

[Seppl]

It doesn't sound like there is more than one of these guys, though, is there? Not sure "one of these" fits very well for uniquely named creatures, especially not ones called "The One and the Prime".

The lore is that Primus is the supreme modron. It is not a specific creature but more like a title to be taken up by the most powerful Secundus modron if the former Primus ever were to die. While that makes the creature technically one of untold billions of modrons, it also kills any idea that the MitD might be Primus. MitD is most certainly not a modron.

[Squire Doodad]

So.... He can't be hungry because he eats everything in sight? I think you've got your cause and effect mixed up there.

Actually, he can't be hungry because Xykon and Redcloak actively feed him. He gets stew on a regular basis, as O-Chul's dialogue with him vis a vis the gruel/soup swap implies that they swap regularly. Given that he particularly likes stew and also Xykon is "always trying to get [MitD] to eat babies", he's probably getting some good meals on a regular basis. It might not be 4 square meals a day but he's at the very least not starving in a way that would have a significant negative affect on him.

[Crusher]

Except the ha-naga is a good candidate currently wedged between a call of cthulu monster and a half-giant, so clearly the system isn't working.

Meanwhile, the Protean entry still makes no mention of its access to every language in existence, it's most damning flaw.

You aren't the one who decides if a candidate is good or whether the Protean's language access is its most damning flaw, except insofar as you are a member of the community. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the community decides how well a candidate fits the criteria as well as what the criteria are. Ignoring those collective decisions because "The community doesn't even understand what they're voting for." misses the very point of the thread.

You don't agree with this thread's results or even its very methodology. Why are you posting here rather than creating your own thread?

Edit -

I looked up the Klurichir. The Strength is 29, so not technically high enough but close enough to fudge it. However I don't see any explanation for the Earthquake.

Oh, that one. Yeah, I found at least 3 versions of the Klurichir in various places, but I think only 2 were old enough. For whatever reason its the one that's stuck with me mentally over the years. I think just because its really powerful and kinda weird looking with the huge mouth in its chest and the pincers. But none of the version really quite got over the hump, so to speak.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You don't agree with this thread's results or even its very methodology. Why are you posting here rather than creating your own thread?

He's not allowed. But he can go to the mods or lobby the community to replace me as curator.

As this is an open forum, and multiple threads on a single topic (with competing curators and selection processes) are not allowed, choosing and agreeing to thread curators is a somewhat fraught process. We would prefer for there to be universal agreement, or, at least, broad consensus on appropriate curators, and that curators do their duty conscientiously and without bias. If a dispute arises about curation (either who is the curator or how the curator is doing their duty), it should be referred to the Moderators, who will contact the curator and the interested parties. In some cases, curators may, with moderator approval, determine some sort of democratic method for inclusion or exclusion of given material, as long as that method is fair and does not give them any unusual influence over the results.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Why are you posting here rather than creating your own thread?

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please remember there is a "one topic, one thread" rule.

[Crusher]

No, the small subset of best fits was my idea, and I still like the concept for what it is meant - i.e. help ease newcomers into the thread. I don't want it to have less than 6 nor more than 12 creatures, and I'd rather get rid of it entirely than to create a tier system of lists (usually, suggested in the form of "each scene gives a point" or the like), but I think having an easy list for perusal is important.

Ah, ok, thanks for clearing that up. I'd misremembered.

He's not allowed. But he can go to the mods or lobby the community to replace me as curator.
Grey Wolf

Oh, I see. Well, I guess we're all stuck with each other, then. That's unfortunate.

Edit 2: already found a new one. Not a FBS contender but a pretty decent match nonetheless.

Primus.

In addition to what others have noted, it looks like that webpage didn't exist before 2008 so its probably not old enough. However, I agree that Primus isn't a bad candidate. And also demonstrates that its still possible we have somehow still not yet stumbled across MitD's actual race.

[Fyraltari]

He's not allowed. But he can go to the mods or lobby the community to replace me as curator.



Grey Wolf

Now, that would be quite the sight!

[Jasdoif]

So i've looked into Chronotyryn

Link/book of publication, please?

The chronotyryn appears in Fiend Folio.

The Fiend Folio art gallery on WotC's site contains its illustration.

The only listed change in the 3.5 update booklet is that its damage reduction is now DR 15/magic.

[Seppl]

In addition to what others have noted, it looks like that webpage didn't exist before 2008 so its probably not old enough. However, I agree that Primus isn't a bad candidate. And also demonstrates that its still possible we have somehow still not yet stumbled across MitD's actual race.

The concept of Primus goes back to 1st edition, so that is not a big problem. With varying stats and abilities throughout the editions, because Primus is more or less the god of modrons and can do almost anything, and modrons follow Primus' every command. It's surprising how good these abilities, as written in the manual, fit the MitD, but still, its almost certainly not the god-commander of all modrons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The chronotyryn appears in Fiend Folio.

The Fiend Folio art gallery on WotC's site contains its illustration.

The only listed change in the 3.5 update booklet is that its damage reduction is now DR 15/magic.

Thanks!

So i've looked into Chronotyryn to see how it fits up, and i've gotten the following:

Pros:
-Large size fits in the box/umbrella as child, and some adults can grow up to Huge
-Strange yet beautiful appearance
-Has access to 6th level Sorcerer spells and lower
- Also has SLA's, including Teleport Without Error
-DR20/+3 may explain "tickling"
-High innate knowledge(arcana) and (planes) may explain both understanding of ritual and astral plane
-Alignment is listed as "Usually Lawful Evil", leaving room for sway
-No immunity to Mind Effecting Spells
-Sonic Screech ability may explain "Stop!"
-Common is not a typical language choice

Cons:
-Strength is a bit lower than usually accepted at 26
-Damage bonus is only +8
-Earthquake can only be explained by convoluted interpretation of Mold Earth spell
-MiTD has no indication of dual brain or dual voice
-no indication of great hunger or ability to consume large quantities
-Access to Sorcerer spells also gives access to Animate dead, running counter to redcloak's comment

I'd throw appearance in the cons, I'd say. It's a bit unusual with the arms, I'll grant you but vomit inducing? No, it's a nice looking creature. The lower defences mentioned by Jasdoif are also a bit of a concern - that DR is meaningless against both Miko and Belkar. In any case, will add it to the list.

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

Edit 2: already found a new one. Not a FBS contender but a pretty decent match nonetheless.

Primus.

1. Can Cast Teleport without Error at-will
2. Strength of 38. DR 50/Epic
3. Looks like a guy with a funny helmet. Probably wouldn't cause people to throw up.
4. I dont think Outsiders are impossible categories
5. Has been around since 1e
6. Size Huge
7. Immune to mind control

He also has access to Earthquake at will, which explains the escape scene with Belkar and Haley.He also doesn't speak so it explains the Big Game Hunter scene, too.

That appears to be a 2nd Edition version of Primus that's been converted to 3e; unfortunately, there's an official 3rd edition version of Primus that states it is a lesser deity.