What new words have you learned recently?

[Ajustusdaniel]

No, that's backwards. A shibboleth is a way for people to recognize members of thzir group. If someone doesn't do it (or does it wrong as per the original example) then they are not a member of the group.

Historically, a little bit of both- it's hard to come up with a way to identify members of your group that doesn't be default also identify non-members.

Also, since shibboleth is in fact a historical shibboleth, we could describe it as autological- a word that describes itself.

[BisectedBrioche]

shibboleth (n): a custom/principle/belief distinguishing a group of people

gulaman (n): a Filipino bar or powder of dried agar used for jellylike desserts

hāngi (n): a traditional New Zealand / Maori cooking method using heated rocks buried in a pit oven

Somehow my in-head dictionary includes "often derogatory" in there. As in it is the thing that the in-group uses to exclude the out-group. So eating meat would be a shibboleth to vegans.

That comes from the Old Testament, where we're introduced to the word. Keeping it general, one group used it as a password and killed anybody who couldn't pronounce it right.

No, that's backwards. A shibboleth is a way for people to recognize members of their group. If someone doesn't do it (or does it wrong as per the original example) then they are not a member of the group.

That's the context I always understood it in myself. Especially in regards to the pronunciation of a word.

So, knowing what THAC0 is could be a Shibboleth to old school D&D players. Knowing how to pronounce Welsh diphthongs. Knowing how to pronounce any word at all in French.

[Peelee]

Knowing how to pronounce any word at all in French.

Is there anything more British than wholesale stealing portions of another language and not even changing things, and then mocking that language?

Well, I suppose it could have been more British if they boiled the language first....

[Fyraltari]

Is there anything more British than wholesale stealing portions of another language and not even changing things, and then mocking that language?

Well, I suppose it could have been more British if they boiled the language first....

To be fair, the Brits didn't steal it as much as had it force-fed to them at sword point.

[Willie the Duck]

Is there anything more British than wholesale stealing portions of another language and not even changing things, and then mocking that language?

Well, I suppose it could have been more British if they boiled the language first....

That's the context I always understood it in myself. Especially in regards to the pronunciation of a word.

So, knowing what THAC0 is could be a Shibboleth to old school D&D players. Knowing how to pronounce Welsh diphthongs. Knowing how to pronounce any word at all in French.

I would posit that you do not steal language, you assimilate it. Interesting aside regarding pronunciation of French words: Matt Easton of the Scholagladiatoria youtube channel did a couple of vids about the pronunciation of the word "machicolation" (a part of a castle). Turns out that the word, most likely pronounced differently than the modern French, came into the English language at a specific time and from a specific region/lineage within France where it was pronounced as such.

[Xuc Xac]

Shibboleths are very commonly seen in WWII movies where soldiers identify who is a real American by asking things like "Who won the 1940 world series?" or spot spies by recognizing the incorrect hand gesture for a German indicating the number 3.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Shibboleths are very commonly seen in WWII movies where soldiers identify who is a real American by asking things like "Who won the 1940 world series?" or spot spies by recognizing the incorrect hand gesture for a German indicating the number 3.

With, it should be noted, varying degrees of historical success. American troops, reacting to rumors that comic book supervillain Otto Skorzeny was operating behind allied lines in disguise, detained an American general after being unsatisfied with his answer to a simple question.

The twist here being that he had answered the question "What's the Capital of Illinois," correctly with "Springfield," but the soldier who stopped him firmly believed the answer was Chicago.

[Khedrac]

Is there anything more British than wholesale stealing portions of another language and not even changing things, and then mocking that language?

Well, I suppose it could have been more British if they boiled the language first....

Please - we changed lots of things, probably because we had no idea of the correct pronunciations!

Also, what we had forced on us was Norman French not French - I think there was quite a difference.

[Peelee]

Please - we changed lots of things, probably because we had no idea of the correct pronunciations!

Also, what we had forced on us was Norman French not French - I think there was quite a difference.

It might be a cliché to admit that I'm having déjà vu vis-à-vis my rather risqué faux pas over having a laissez-faire attitude towards the difference between French and Norman, but I believe I am still en route to a valid point.

[Fyraltari]

Please - we changed lots of things, probably because we had no idea of the correct pronunciations!

Also, what we had forced on us was Norman French not French - I think there was quite a difference.

Ah, yes, for example, I hear you guys still spell "connaisseur" with two "o"s. Such an insurmontable gap.*

Joking aside, if you want to split hairs, it was Anglo-Norman you guys got, which is mainly derived from Norman but also from other Oïl languages as not all of William's army was from Normandy. Most Oïl languages being close enough to be mutually understandable, this wasn't much of an issue. Norman kept on going its merry way and merge with the other Oïl languages to form middle French.

It might be a cliché to admit that I'm having déjà vu vis-à-vis my rather risqué faux pas over having a laissez-faire attitude towards the difference between French and Norman, but I believe I am still en route to a valid point.

Funnily, the Norman-descended English words are generally not those you'd expect: "war", "to catch", "budget" and many more have Oïl roots.


*I was flabbergasted when I learned this was the original spelling and not some sort of typo. I should have guessed, really since writing "ai" sounds "oi" is the French equivalent of "Ye Olde Englishe".

[Peelee]

Funnily, the Norman-descended English words are generally not those you'd expect: "war", "to catch", "budget" and many more have Oïl roots.

Sacré bleu!

[Scarlet Knight]

threnody: a wailing ode, song, hymn or poem of mourning

"After the election my brother produced a threnody for his party."

[Fyraltari]

Sacré bleu!

It's "sacrebleu". One word, no diacritic.
Also, the last person to say that unironically died of old age a long time ago.

[Peelee]

It's "sacrebleu". One word, no diacritic.
Also, the last person to say that unironically died of old age a long time ago.

First off, I'm using the American English "sacré bleu".

Second off, the last person to say that unironically is alive today, and you're talkin' to him!

Third off, one day I'll remember that it's one word, no diacritic. I do appreciate that you correct me every time. For reals. And I'm sorry it never takes.

[Fyraltari]

First off, I'm using the American English "sacré bleu".

Second off, the last person to say that unironically is alive today, and you're talkin' to him!

Palsambleu !

Third off, one day I'll remember that it's one word, no diacritic. I do appreciate that you correct me every time. For reals. And I'm sorry it never takes.

"Every time"? This is what the second, maybe third time? It's really no big deal.

[Peelee]

Palsambleu !

Google translate tells me that is Estonian, and means "palsambleu".

I do not quite trust Google translate here.

"Every time"? This is what the second, maybe third time? It's really no big deal.

I can't remember what you've told me, and yet you expect me to remember how often you've told me?

[Fyraltari]

Google translate tells me that is Estonian, and means "palsambleu".

I do not quite trust Google translate here.

It's French and is an equivalent to sacrebleu. Etymologically speaking (bear in mind that bleu stands in for Dieu for fear of blasphemy charges) sacrebleu translates to something like "holy God", while palsambleu is a contraction of par le sang de bleu/Dieu meaning "God's blood".

I can't remember what you've told me, and yet you expect me to remember how often you've told me?

Fair.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And here I spent years thinking sacrebleu was a reference to the Virgin's cloak.

[Rynjin]

Shibboleths are very commonly seen in WWII movies where soldiers identify who is a real American by asking things like "Who won the 1940 world series?" or spot spies by recognizing the incorrect hand gesture for a German indicating the number 3.

I think there's a few in reverse as well, the example I always remember is American spies being outed because they ordered their cappuccino wrong or some such.

[BisectedBrioche]

Is there anything more British than wholesale stealing portions of another language and not even changing things, and then mocking that language?

Well, I suppose it could have been more British if they boiled the language first....

Who said anything about loanwords? As I suggested with Welsh, I'm perfectly capable of respecting another language's rules of pronunciation being different (I'd argue Welsh makes better use of the Latin alphabet than actual Latin, but that's besides the point). I'll mock English for being 3 pigins in a trenchcoat mugging other languages for spare noun in an ally any day.

Would you care to explain the rule of pronunciation that justifies oiseaux? 5 vowels, two consonants, and only the s makes any sound that makes consistent sense with the French flavour of the Latin alphabet.

[Fyraltari]

Who said anything about loanwords? As I suggested with Welsh, I'm perfectly capable of respecting another language's rules of pronunciation being different (I'd argue Welsh makes better use of the Latin alphabet than actual Latin, but that's besides the point). I'll mock English for being 3 pigins in a trenchcoat mugging other languages for spare noun in an ally any day.

Would you care to explain the rule of pronunciation that justifies oiseaux? 5 vowels, two consonants, and only the s makes any sound that makes consistent sense with the French flavour of the Latin alphabet.

"Oi" being pronounced [wa], "se" being pronounced [z] when preceded by a vowel-sound, "au" being pronounced [o] and "x" being silent when used to indicate plural are all well-established and extremely consistent rules of French pronunciation.

In other words: Digraphs, baby!

[Peelee]

"Oi" being pronounced [wa], "se" being pronounced [z] when preceded by a vowel-sound, "au" being pronounced [o] and "x" being silent when used to indicate plural are all well-established and extremely consistent rules of French pronunciation.

In other words: Digraphs, baby!

Wait, your language has well-established, consistent rules of pronunciation? Or well-established, consistent rules in general? No wonder the British hate it!

[Fyraltari]

Wait, your language has well-established, consistent rules of pronunciation?

Yes.

Or well-established, consistent rules in general?

Yes.

No wonder the British hate it!

Well they are also labyrintian and kinda sexist, so...

[understatement]

The things I learn on these forums.

Anyways,

loukoumade (n): Greek bite-sized donuts that are essentially deep-fried, honeyed balls

rapprochement (n): establishing or a state of cordial relations, usually in politics/government

cephalophore (n): a saint depicted carrying their own severed head. I'm absolutely flummoxed as to why this word exists.

[Wraith]

Well they are also labyrinthian and kinda sexist, so...

speechless_stickguy_meme.png

Oh wait, you meant the French rules and not the British-in-general? My bad...

A word I learned a while ago but it's one that I really enjoy because it's a lot of fun to say:

Phantasmagoria - A state in which one is experiencing "phantasms" (ie, hallucinating).

[Ajustusdaniel]

cephalophore (n): a saint depicted carrying their own severed head. I'm absolutely flummoxed as to why this word exists.

Coinage from fairly easy to snap together Greek components to describe a recurrent motif in martyrship narratives. As to why it was such a recurrent motif- well, I don't want to say it's because the French are obsessed with decapitation, but apparently they had like one hundred and thirty of these guys.

[Willie the Duck]

cephalophore (n): a saint depicted carrying their own severed head. I'm absolutely flummoxed as to why this word exists.

To be fair, every field of study is going to have incredibly specific jargon that to an outsider seems incomprehensible, and art would not be an exception. If you are getting an art degree, you have to have ways to discuss things, so why not break it down into a million tiny bits?

I remember learning (as a teen) about names for sub-parts of the body like the Tragus of the ear or the Philtrum of the lip and thinking how silly it was for each of them to have this specialized name no one would remember, and my teacher saying, "the people who need to make these distinctions will remember."

[Scarlet Knight]

Phantasmagoria - A state in which one is experiencing "phantasms" (ie, hallucinating).

"Wow, man. I was have a phantasmagoria at Woodstock and all the while I thought I was just tripping."

aperçu - comment or brief reference that makes an illuminating or entertaining point.

"There were so many scintillating apercus in this book that I gave up underlining them!"

[Fyraltari]

Simony, the selling and buying of religious offices and artefacts.

"The Knights Templar were charged, among other things, with simony and fraud."

[Vinyadan]

Coinage from fairly easy to snap together Greek components to describe a recurrent motif in martyrship narratives. As to why it was such a recurrent motif- well, I don't want to say it's because the French are obsessed with decapitation, but apparently they had like one hundred and thirty of these guys.

Not really narrative, but iconography. The story isn't about the guy carrying his head as much as losing it, but the fresco will portray him carrying his head to show how he died.

EDIT: I correct myself: beside the iconography, there apparently also are legends of the body carrying the head post-mortem.