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2021-01-23, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
I'm not the one who made it, but it's there.
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2021-01-23, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-01-23, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Why, both are teleported exactly the same way. Both are teleported from Dungeon (A) to Dungeon (B), and then from Dungeon (B) to Dungeon (A). But as they enter the portal from opposite sides, they logically end in different sides of the portal.
Blackwing enters the portal:
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D b-> @ R (DUNGEON A)
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| @-> b (DUNGEON B)
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Roy enters the portal:
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D @ <-R (DUNGEON A)
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| R <-@ b (DUNGEON B)
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Roy goes back:
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| R-> @ b (DUNGEON B)
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D @-> R (DUNGEON A)
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Blackwing goes back:
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| @ <-b (DUNGEON B)
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D b <-@ R (DUNGEON A)
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D= Door
@ = Portal
R = Roy
b = Blackwing
-> = direction of movement
| = Dead End
--- = Cave walls
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2021-01-23, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- Bamako
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
So to simplify, the most plausible situation for this is:
Physically the Door end (EA) connects to the Mystery Tunnel (TA), where the order are and the Dead End EB connects to the Monster Tunnel (TB) Team Evil entered.
There are two magical effects
- The first is the "switch" which is some kind of teleportation trap. When the switch is active it connects EA to TB and EB to TA. Normally the switch is active. If the switch is dis-activated, then we go back to the physical connections. (EA to TA and EB to TB)
- The second is the "cover". This is some kind of Divination spell (Clairvoyance-like) that makes it that from EA you look into TB and vice versa.
Dis-activating the switch does not dis-activate the cover, which remains in place. This explains why we see people "disappearing" even if they step in to TA from EA, which are physically connected, when the switch is dis-activated.
Now this is the situation for this door.
The question now is how this works for multiple doors. Is there a set of A & B behind each door, or does each door only have a fixed A and do the effects cycle through different B tunnels, or do multiple doors share a B (or even all doors share a B and the randomising of monster lairs happens further down the line).Last edited by Corneel; 2021-01-23 at 07:30 AM.
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2021-01-23, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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- Italy
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that apparently nobody never questioned the impossible geometry of the dungeon nor managed to find a trap that Haley (who hasn't even her search skill maxed) discovered at her first try (I know about the whole only rogues can find magical traps, but I find equally disappointing that there apparently isn't a single rogue in the village nor anyone bothered casting the Find traps spell, which is level 2 for clerics), so part of me still hopes that the real dungeon that leads to the gate is the one you enter through teleport and Team Evil is actually aware of the trap.
Still, I don't think Rich would have gone to such lenght in showing and explaining how the dungeon works if there isn't going something significant in the tunnel the Order is, so I guess they are going to find either the gate or someone/something else crucial to the story.
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2021-01-23, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Europe
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.
But as for Serini's diary, I don't think that's an obstacle. The diary won't give a precise enough location to distinguish between the hidden dungeons where the teleport trap leads and the entrance, it certainly won't tell which door or hidden dungeon is the correct one. In fact the diary will probably not even point to the hidden dungeons, but to the entrances that let you teleport in, because that's how you give useful guidance. Nobody other than Ganonron could Epic teleport directly into the hidden dungeons from just a description.
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2021-01-23, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
There is Wish - but it costs XP:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-01-23 at 08:44 AM.
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2021-01-23, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-01-23, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Scotland
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
The thing is, it's not an illusion. What they're seeing is where they're going; it's just not where they think they're going. The description of true seeing says:
The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).Overly logical member of the Elan's modron concience fanclub.I am a: Neutral Good Human Wizard (4th level)
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2021-01-23, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Europe
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Vaarsuvius says in the fifth panel “Any observer remaining on the opposite side of the line would still percieve those who had passed before them – thus masking that they had already been rerouted.” I assumed that this is similar to an illusion effect enough that it would automatically not be fooled: he would see the projected image, but would know that it's a scrying image, not really behind the trap. I might be wrong though, perhaps this is something where being undead and the True seeing spell doesn't help. #1219 shows that Roy can't see the thin line even after Haley points it out, which weakly hints that Haley can only detect the trap because he's a rogue.
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2021-01-23, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Being undead has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I'm guessing you're confusing that with undead being immune to mind-affecting spells.
And True Seeing doesn't work on that either -
Originally Posted by Ye Olde Peelee's SRD
Oh, and mostly you can't really find traps without having levels in Rogue. There's the Find Traps spell, but that's about it for Core and the bonus is pretty bleh for someone who doesn't already have at least a decent Search modifier. Remember, Haley is a very high level Rogue at this point and has a decent Int modifier.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-01-23, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Not that kind of problem. (Or campaign, though Roy's Sword, and all of the parts to Durkon's Hammer, come close)
I will love it if one of the Invisible Duo asks them whether they'd like to stand pat, or choose what's behind Door #2 though. I mean, they're already wearing silly costumes....
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2021-01-23, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks Giant!
To find in order to lose; To fall in order to stand up
To freeze in order to ignite; To find myself within, and not fear the edge
To die in order to be reborn to the new world
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2021-01-23, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
This. Xykon probably does have a high Search skill. Let's say he does. Unless he's a Rogue, it doesn't help him at all to see this particular trap.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm and scroll down to the Magic Traps section.
RC can cast Find Traps, and therefore can Search like a Rogue for the spell's duration, but his Search skill is likely blah. The Bugbear Village likely has Rogues living within it, as Rogue is the favored class of their race. But they likely don't have high-level Rogues, and therefore don't likely have high Search skill. (Alternate theory: They do know about the teleport trap, but are working in concert with the Invisible Duo to hide that.)
Who knows? Maybe Xykon has known about it all along? But since he's having the most fun of his unlife, killing things, taking their stuff, and not thinking any deeper than that---exactly like the type of D&D players that The Giant has been satirizing and criticizing from the beginning of this entire strip---he hasn't bothered to point it out to RC.
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2021-01-23, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-01-23, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Maybe ... just maybe ... figuring out the trap doesn't lead you to the Gate, but it does get you closer.
Hypothesis
- Triggering the teleport trap leads you somewhere that is not very close to the Gate, physically. That's how all those doors can have twisty complex dungeons behind them
- When your Rogue figures out the trap is there and bypasses it (or other methods work, like randomly casting Dispel Magic), you get to explore inside Kragor's Tomb
- However, exploring inside Kragor's Tomb still won't lead you all the way to the Gate
- The Gate is inside a chamber of the Dimensional Stone with no doors. To reach it, you have to guess where it is, and dig the last N feet, for medium-sized N (20? 50? something like that)
Why? Because Kragor was a dwarf fighter. And what are dwarves known for? Mining.
Serini's dungeon design, then, pays homage to teamwork (you need a Rogue or a spellcaster to even get near the Gate), Strength (you must fight large monsters on the way), and dwarves (at the end, you need a pickaxe).This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2021-01-23, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
I think the chances of the Order being in the corridor that leads to the gate went up considerably. After all, since Kraagor valued strength, what would be a better display of strength than having to force your way through solid stone to reach the gate?
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2021-01-23, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
I enjoyed #1223 quite a bit. It's nice to see Blackwing have the good sense to get out of there quickly. The dynamic between Roy, V, and Blackwing is quite interesting. Roy, as leader, has no problem giving directions to members of the team. V. apparently does not like anyone else giving his familiar orders. We will see how that resolves itself.
The magic transporters are very sophisticated magic. You can't just hire a rent-a-mage to cast that kind of magic, especially for so many tunnels. I am suspecting a ring of three wishes. I suspect that this is just the first line of defense of the tomb.
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2021-01-23, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-01-23, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Valencia, Spain
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Dwarves are known for their Stonecunning sense. It's a racial trait.
So there is merit in your idea that the path to the Gate is concealed behind a stone wall, apparently the same as the cave walls, that only a Dwarf would perceive. No magic, no true seeing, no detect traps, no detect secret doors, would help you. Only the stonecunning sense of a Dwarf would perceive that the stone is weaker at a certain spot.
Expanding on my previous suggestion, my take is that:
1) Evey door has a portal trap that leads you to an specific dungeon populated by mosters somewere else.
2) If you disable the trap, you end up in a dead-end corridor. Only one of the doors leads to a corridor containing a fake wall along it that connects with Kraagor's Tomb. Or maybe all doors are connected by a network of tunnels, with the fake wall somewere along the tunnel system.
3) The Bugbears may be aware of the portal traps, but as they lead to empty tunnels, they aren't interested in them. They are interested in getting into the monster-populated dungeons.
4) Team Evil may be aware of the existence of the portal traps. But as they lead to nowere, they assume the Gate will be accesed through one of the dungeons they get teleported to.
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2021-01-23, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Another issue with Team Evil knowing about the portals: don't they have the coordinates of the gate? If the portal dungeons are far enough away, they could just figure out which matches the coordinates instead of slogging through each one.
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2021-01-23, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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- Disunited Kingdom
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Can we conclude from all this detective analysis on the recent strips, that the Serini panel in 277 is something of a misdirection. Serini was not organizing the capturing of monsters but rather engaging in a massive project of architecture and high-level magic. Presumably that panel is what she told the other scribblers.
Ever wondered how many games are mentioned in the comic? I have listed them all in a geeklist: https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/2...es-order-stick
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2021-01-23, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
It isn't even that. It's what Shojo says his father said that Soon said that Ms Toormuck said.
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2021-01-23, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- US
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
I'm not entirely sold on the "dig the rest of the way" notion. Every other gate had a route that was easily bypassed by the guards, presumably to perform any magical maintenance that might be needed. Dismantling and replacing a whole wall, particularly one that's meant to blend seamlessly in with the cave wall without the use of illusions or a master craftsman on call, is somewhat impractical.
Plus, from a security standpoint, there's no reason to build a layer that's specifically dwarf-permeable. The defenses would be designed so that Sereni and any assistants she had could get through, while outsiders could not. Sereni doesn't have any stonecunning ability, and to my recollection, doesn't have any dwarves working for her. The only upshot of that particular defense would be that it's hard to detect and penetrate in general... which admittedly is still a big upshot, but more coincidentally aligned with the specialties of dwarves than intentional.
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2021-01-23, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- A Michigan Far, Far Away
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-01-23, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Germany
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
They have the coordinates of the general location of Kraagor's Gate/Monster Hollow.
I doubt they're precise enough to pinpoint the exact location of the Rift.
Especially if it's buried somewhere under all that rock.
Depending how accurate Serini was in her diary of course, but since Team Evil teleported next to Girard's pyramid and not right next to the actual Gate they probably only have the equivalent of "It's in Manhattan"*. Helpful to narrow it down, but not enough to pop up right next to it.
*Okay, maybe not quite that bad."If it lives it can be killed.
If it is dead it can be eaten."
Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
(Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")
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2021-01-23, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-01-23, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
Teleporting right outside the pyramid was actually pretty accurate. The coordinates that Girard gave to Soon were also accurate enough that he assumed Soon would trip over his secret message. So the area covered by the coordinates has to be significantly smaller than a city.
I'm kind of guessing here, but I think the teleport traps go farther than a few hundred feet. I guess the dungeons could be layered on top of each other below the same coordinates, but I think it's more likely they're spread far apart.
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2021-01-23, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2020
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
In the panel just above the last one, you can see the aura where Blackwing is preemptively getting the heck out of there behind Belkar's head.
Gotta love the Giant's attention to detail.
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2021-01-23, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread
My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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