New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 21 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 627
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Reddish Mage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The Chi
    Gender
    Male

    Default Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quoting the Giant on an unrelated topic:

    While the alignment system is very useful for playing the game...
    I have to wonder how many share this view on D&D and what argument can be made that it is indeed, not merely useful in an expeditious way to get players adhere to semi-coherent playstyle, at least in regards to morality.

    In my view, alignment is part of the flavor of playing D&D, but other games that don't have it are no worse off for it (I've played other RPGs, even other D20 games where alignment is not used, and never thought twice about it), and that beyond providing a little flavor (particularly in the way 3rd has a law-chaos axis running perpendicular to the good-evil axis) alignment really doesn't do all that much to add to the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    137beth's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    It's a description of a character's actions and thoughts...

    what makes it less useful for those purposes is the way it is connected to mechanics. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to disconnect mechanics and alignment, so that isn't really an issue. I use it in my games sometimes, but it's never really a big deal, and I wouldn't care if it went away.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I have to wonder how many share this view on D&D and what argument can be made that it is indeed, not merely useful in an expeditious way to get players adhere to semi-coherent playstyle, at least in regards to morality.
    Eh, it's a pretty poor substitute for actually thinking about your character's motives and personality. I suppose it's better than nothing, and if it had no game mechanical effects at all, it might be a slightly useful tool, but as it is you lose far more in idiotic arguments about whether something is or is not consistent with a particular alignment or whether some action or other should change it, than you gain in improved characterization.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    I guess that they are useful for having a party come together and already knowing if it will work, if there will be some in-game contrast, what kind of opponents to have ready and so on.

    However, while I find the chaotic-lawful line to make sense in expressing someone's disposition, I don't really get the evil-good one. The matter is simply too complex for such a distinction.
    It would be better to simply have the player choose four adjective-axes with numerical values. For example:

    Greedy-generous: 3
    Sadic-benevolent: 8
    Cowardly-brave: 3
    Image unconscious-image conscious: 6

    So we would have a guy who basically likes other people and wants to do something for them. On the other side, he is quite greedy, which leads to him sometimes wanting stuff more than the good of others. He isn't a brave man, and wishes to avoid battle; at the same time, he is somewhat conscious of the fact that other people can judge him for what he does, so he can be coerced to fight by the presence of someone whose opinion he especially cares for.

    But, after all, with such a system, how could paladins easily know where to stick the pointy end of their... uh... stick?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Alignment would be a great help to guiding how to play a character, if players actually understood it. Since they don't (or at the very least, can't agree on what a particular alignment means--see all the arguments that crop up on this here message board), I don't think it's terribly useful in the game, either. It's notable that D&D is the only RPG system I can remember playing which includes this--every other one I've ever played expects you to play your character without such a crutch, and they seem to work well enough!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
    The Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Generally, it is most useful either as a.) shorthand between experienced players to allow them to easily discuss a broad range that a character falls in, or b.) a tool for inexperienced players to even consider issues like what their characters believe. And it's b.) that's really the benefit.

    It's tough for those who spend all their time talking about D&D to remember that most players are very casual and don't think too deeply about this stuff at all. For that sort of player, picking an alignment is a great introduction to the idea of having a group of characters with diverse motivations. We all take for granted that you have to decide what your character believes, but remember that D&D gets taught to kids who haven't even really figured out what they themselves believe yet. Left to their own devices, they're unlikely to delve deep into their fictional character's philosophies. Alignment is good for starting that conversation. It's also a good way to keep beginning players on the general sort of path of heroics without them burning down the village for kicks.

    Then, once they've had a campaign or two under their belt, alignment provides an easy stepping stone for stretching their roleplaying muscles. You may have noticed that most players—especially younger players—tend to play characters that trend toward their own personal alignment, or else some sort of wish fulfillment variation thereof. But after a few different characters like that, there's a natural tendency to want to try something new. Alignment gives a great way to channel that feeling into expanding their roleplaying repetoire by giving them easy-to-understand options that they can pick from. Always played Chaotic Good? Try Lawful Good. Or Lawful Neutral. It's the sort of thing that can really push a player into trying new things, way more than a new race or class can.

    Eventually, a player will master switching back and forth between all the alignments and will be a reasonably conversant roleplayer. Then they can move on to playing against alignment stereotypes, or if everyone's at the same level, they can try a more complex alignment system or even abandon the concept altogether. The exact layout and mechanics of the system is sort of beside the point. I do think that the alignment system is much more robust and flexible than most people give it credit for, which is one of the reasons that I spend so much energy dealing with it in OOTS.

    But in terms of teaching how to roleplay, it's a great aid. Which is why I think published D&D should always have it; not only is it part of the culture of D&D anyway, but D&D is basically the "training wheels" of roleplaying. If there's a system that can help train new players about how to roleplay, it should be in there. More experience players can always ignore it, but new players won't know to add it in.

    Do other games need alignment? Not really, though some sort of structure for roleplaying decisions isn't a bad thing.
    Rich Burlew


    Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!

    ~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
    The Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It's notable that D&D is the only RPG system I can remember playing which includes this--every other one I've ever played expects you to play your character without such a crutch, and they seem to work well enough!
    That's because every other game in existence relies on D&D to recruit and train new roleplayers for them. Those games work partly because almost everyone who ever plays them has already learned whatever lessons that alignment has to offer—or is playing with other people who have. You would have a hard time finding a single roleplaying group for any other game where not one member had ever played D&D even once.
    Rich Burlew


    Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!

    ~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~

  8. - Top - End - #8

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    I'm not really sure that even novice players need alignment as a guide to how to RP.

    In my experience, picking up on how to portray a character is one of the first things even inexperienced people can intuitively grasp and I'm of the opinion that alignment is more of a straightjacket to them than an aid. It encourages building two-dimensional characters more than anything else.

    Edit - though other, more flexible, tools to help develop a character don't hurt.
    Last edited by Koo Rehtorb; 2013-09-29 at 03:18 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    It's also a good way to keep beginning players on the general sort of path of heroics without them burning down the village for kicks.
    Actually, I think a better way to teach that is through in-game consequences. Characters burn down a village? Hmmm, for some reason we can't service in any temples and there are all these bounty hunters and paladin groups hunting us. I wonder why?

    That's a better teachable moment , perhaps, than slapping an arbitrary label on them for their actions. Or maybe, perhaps, it gives them a chance to explore what those labels mean, beyond simple team jerseys .

    There's a certain irony to this. I remember when D&D first came out, and d'ya know what kept me away from the hobby for many, many years? Well, my grandparents and I saw Mazes and Monsters on TV when it came out. The fundamental allegation of Mazes and Monsters, based on media reports of the time, was that D&D taught children highly inappropriate behavior, resulting in bizarre rituals and suicide. And yet now, many years later, I find the exact opposite is true. D&D can be a wish-fulfillment game where you act out murder-hobo fantasies that would get you imprisoned in real life, but it can also be a real teachable moment where people can learn moral lessons. It can make people better citizens and real-life people, not worse.

    It also allows one to explore ideas and philosophies one is simply not at home to in the real world. For example, I've been tapped to join a 4E game and roleplay a goblin rogue, which I intend to model somewhat on Right-eye (if you have any tips on that, I'm listening). Obviously the character, coming from the kind of background you'd normally expect from a fantasy goblin upbringing, isn't going to be any kind of heroic saint out of the gate, but I'm hoping to see him grow at least in that direction, to the extent it is plausible. Start at the lighter end of chaotic evil and maybe move into first chaotic neutral or neutral evil, and then we'll see where it goes from there, depending on the circumstances he is presented with, how other species react to him, and what choices he could reasonably make.

    I'm also going to initially roleplay him as godless. If you're dissatisfied with the Evil philosophy, then obviously Bane/Gruumsh is going to rub you the wrong way. Since the character's birth religion will lock him into patterns, habits, and thoughts he is trying to get away from, naturally he will have ditched it. Whether he will find another one to suit him, or remain godless, will remain to see. The DM suggests Nusemnee , but so far as I can tell she's dead. Who worships a dead god?

    So anyway, it's giving me the opportunity to explore godlessness as a philosophy, which is something I've never done in the real world. It helps that there is some distance between my character and I so I can consider the matter intellectually, put myself in his shoes as it were, without having to actually embrace everything the character believes and does as my own.

    At any rate, D&D has proven to be the opposite of the incitement to real-world stupidity that it was made out to be by the media back in 1982. The vast gap between what authority figures in my life and media taught me, and what was actually true about D&D, has led me to view media and authority figures with skepticism and a determination to seek out the truth for myself, firsthand, wherever feasible. It's a life lesson that has stood me well, I think, even if I had to learn it only in my 20s.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2013-09-29 at 07:43 AM.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    The alignment system can be useful to focus a story; however, since it's always reduced to the same two axes you tend to get the same story every time.

    I think it's worth considering to define other axes for a particular arc or story. For example, a story set in a frontier town, in the middle of a conflict between settlers and natives would care a lot about a character's disposition towards the settling of the wilderness: that could be declared officially on an alignment scale of civilization vs. nature. In that setting eg. the distinction between good and evil could fade into the background (a frontier mentality "might makes right" and a survival of the fittest attitude taking priority), so it wouldn't be necessary to declare that beforehand. So you'd end up with players being eg. lawful natural - native traditions or chaotic civilized - to boldly go where no man has gone before. Interestingly, even the existing classes can be fit into that paradigm: rangers, druids and barbarians are obviously more natural aligned while rogues, wizards and paladins are more civilization aligned. That makes a refreshing narrative setup possible


    Of course there'll still be the problems inherent in interpreting actions and placing them within the rigid, binary alignment scales... but perhaps the philosophical discussion generated by these borderline cases could be considered a benefit, depending on your goals with the game.
    And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    In the game I just started DMing, I intend to try to tempt the characters to evil. Nothing as crude as deals with the devil or Miko-style mental breakdown, but gradual acceptance of evil methods for the greater good. Why? Because those of the players present I already RPd with *never* play evil characters; they're friendly, kind guys in real life and while they can give interesting and funny personalities to their characters, Evil is out of their comfort zone.
    We don't really use alignment in game, too simplistic, but if those characters weren't good-to-neutral, that temptation theme would be meaningless. If the players weren't good enough at RPing to reflect their character's values, I'd ask them to write down their alignment, because in such a setting how they act might be less important than how they believe they act.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    It's also a good way to keep beginning players on the general sort of path of heroics without them burning down the village for kicks.
    You know I once DMed for people with no RPG experience and decided to not use alignments eventually this happened (except the village was a city, and the fire was hellfire, and the villagers were halflings).

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    I'm one of the people who had a hissy fit when certain systems (4.0) dropped part of the alignment system. It just felt like a tradition of the game was yanked.

    I love the great wheel, and alignment, more than anything else, has become the identifying public aspect of gaming. If I make a reference to someone being chaotic neutral, all the dorky or former dorky people around will get it and generally appreciate it. Dropping the alignment system would feel like, I don't know, renaming the Chicago Cubs to a different mascot.

    And yes, it's really good for introducing the concept of roleplaying to new players. The times I've seen games w/o alignment, new players either play themselves or turn into crazed murderhobos.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    and even if it is a flawed morality system, it is still a morality system that opens the door to some reflection

    Those 203920320 "what is the alignment of each character of Family Ties?" things are dumb, but it's kind of neat, IMO, that it is forcing people to consider different types of personality.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Do other games need alignment? Not really, though some sort of structure for roleplaying decisions isn't a bad thing.
    I've always rather admired the personality traits structure in Pendragon. It might not work terribly well in more grittily realistic genres, but it feels right at home in a setting where the iconic characters routinely display crazy over the top passions.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bristol, UK

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    {SCRUBBED}

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    you sound intense

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Reddish Mage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The Chi
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Generally, it is most useful either as a.) shorthand between experienced players to allow them to easily discuss a broad range that a character falls in, or b.) a tool for inexperienced players to even consider issues like what their characters believe. And it's b.) that's really the benefit.
    I have to agree here, a number of budding ethicists related to me that D&D was there first experience in morality.

    I do think that the alignment system is much more robust and flexible than most people give it credit for, which is one of the reasons that I spend so much energy dealing with it in OOTS.
    I note that OOTS makes very good use of alignment as a reason to place the characters in conflict with one another and to hang a philosophic framework for its villains. Could Miko or Tarquin be as interesting if there wasn't such a framework? What about Roy and Elan? The fact that these actions take place in universal system helps gives them meaning.

    I might go so far as to speculate the inspiration for the philosophies present came from the alignment system.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-09-29 at 11:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    That's because every other game in existence relies on D&D to recruit and train new roleplayers for them. Those games work partly because almost everyone who ever plays them has already learned whatever lessons that alignment has to offer—or is playing with other people who have. You would have a hard time finding a single roleplaying group for any other game where not one member had ever played D&D even once.
    This depends on a situation. A personal example: I started seriously roleplaying with the Finnish edition of RuneQuest (3rd version) when I was 13. We had a bunch of school mates with no previous experience on any RPG's. In other words, not a single of us had ever played D&D. RuneQuest is a very different playing system (no levels, percentage skills and no alignments et cetera) and the world of Glorantha is a very different world than generic D&D worlds.

    During those years (starting around 1989-1990) there was no internet and no way to access all the RPG material that is available now, so we were played those games we got. One Finnish company (that still operates) had started to import and, most importantly, to translate RPG's. They also translated basic D&D, but games like RuneQuest became more popular. So a lot of Finnish gamers have started with RuneQuest and other systems without specific alignment system.

    We played RuneQuest for years, first with Finnish edition and later with original editions as our skill points in English grew. As time went by, some of the players quit and we switched to RoleMaster. RoleMaster has an enormous amount of tables and calculations - and levels - but no alignment system either.

    Yet, D&D was no mystery. Basic D&D was just way too simple RPG after starting with RuneQuest. I played a few campaigns of Basic D&D and later one or two AD&D campaigns (even one campaign of D&D 3.0 in university), but my primary introduction to (A)D&D and its level/alignment systems were computer games such as Eye Of The Beholder and also Dragonlance novels (you could hear the dice rattling behind the prose, even in Finnish translations).

    But, as you said, alignment system is a fine guideline for beginners despite its obvious shortcomings. In my opinion it easily leads to characteristic straightjackets though. It leads too easily to Lawful Good interpretations like Miko: players who act like jerks in the name of the Law.

    It would be an interesting variation if people would receive their final alignment from GM after a few adventures instead of deciding it before the campaign starts. If people would like to play, for example, Neutral Good character, they'd have to act that way in the first place in order to secure their Alignment.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Taelas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denmark
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    {SCRUBBED}
    {SCRUBBED}

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Gwynfrid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ontario
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Totally agree with the view of alignment as "training wheels" for roleplaying. I remember when I was introduced to the game (man that was looong ago), the idea of replaying sounded intriguing to me, but I didn't exactly know what to do with it. So I was supposed to be a wizard fresh out of school, with a mission to do such and such. And I was to play his role. What to do? The technical aspect of it was quite complicated, but the roleplaying aspect was the most puzzling. Then the DM explained the alignment system and told us to pick one. Obviously, that was simplistic and as a RL individual I wouldn't want to be put in a box in such a crude way. But that box was helpful to decide how my character was going to react to social situations. In fact, it's what got me to start thinking about roleplay in concrete terms.

    Sure, after a couple decades of play, alignment feels way too basic and even silly. But that's now. Then was different.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Reddish Mage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The Chi
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    {SCRUBBED}
    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    {SCRUBBED}
    Arguments about the philosophic merits absolute and relativistic morality belong elsewhere. What there is to talk about in D&D is that it embraces a absolute model literally supported by metaphysical forces, gods, demons, and angels by simply labeling things "good" and "evil" with literally a few sentences towards defining both as its model.

    There is a question of whether that model is better than an alternative...perhaps (if you want something more relativistic) a model in which there are countless competing moralities and philosophies each supported by deities or metaphysically powerful philosophic ideals?
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-09-29 at 12:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Banned
     
    Scow2's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ohio

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Actually, I think a better way to teach that is through in-game consequences. Characters burn down a village? Hmmm, for some reason we can't service in any temples and there are all these bounty hunters and paladin groups hunting us. I wonder why?
    Obviously, those bounty hunters, Paladins, and churches are evil and meant to be opposed, for daring to stand against the Heroes. The Alignment system is a judgement that can be passed on characters that they can't hack their way out of. "Alright, change your alignment to Evil" has a lot more impact on player character behavior than "Three knights come charging over the hill shouting demands to surrender."

    Frankly... Alignment is NOT personality, and the two have about as much in common as a lobster and yodeling.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Taelas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denmark
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Whatever alignment you happen to follow is going to influence your personality, however, and as the Giant said, it's a good place to start.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Exediron's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    While the alignment system might we helpful to some people starting out as roleplayers, my personal experience is that it causes more harm than good - not because of the system itself (which I agree is deeper than it is given credit for) but because of the way it is often applied; as a replacement for actual goals or personality. If the line "well, he's lawful so he does X" ever comes up, that's a sign to me that it's being used incorrectly.

    Personally, I use alignment as a descriptive and not a determinative factor. It goes at the top of the sheet with things like eye color and hair color, and it's the same idea. Mechanically, we only really use it for things like items that reject evil users, paladin smiting and the like. There aren't any mechanical penalties for switching alignment (unless you have an item or class that requires a certain alignment, naturally); usually the player does it themselves, but if they won't the DM can force an alignment change. I don't think it's right to consider an alignment switch a penalty - just an update in a description to make sure it matches what it describes. If you want to penalize characters for their actions you need something physical (to them) to actuate it. An example someone mentioned above being that if you commit a particularly evil act knights or bounty hunters might start to follow you. That's the penalty, imposed by the world and not the DM. Unless the DM had a specific alignment mix in mind for the party - which they agreed to at the start - I don't think it's proper for the DM to enforce good alignment outside the natural reactions of the world.

    Because I find moral philosophy interesting (although not forum-appropriate to discuss in detail), I do enjoy thinking of what alignment a character might be and why, but you need the personality before the alignment to answer that question (to my way of thinking, at any rate). Personality takes the front seat with alignment in the distant back seat of this van.
    Why does a chair have arms and legs like a man but cannot walk or hold things?

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Banned
     
    Math_Mage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Personally, grappling with D&D's alignment system (yes, including all the irritating forum arguments that crop up) made me a much more sophisticated consumer of ideas about ethics. That alone makes alignment useful from my perspective.

    Useful for playing? Well, I'm one of those beginner players Rich was talking about, and I've never actually run a full campaign, let alone a full campaign where alignment was a significant factor, so alignment has primarily been useful for character creation. Making a decision about what alignment my character was going to be helped me develop his/her personality and backstory, because it gave me some first-order constraints to work within.

    Of course alignment is a crappy substitute for thinking about your actual character, just like looking at a magnifying glass is a crappy substitute for actually looking at an ant if you're trying to learn about the ant. But if you look at the ant through the magnifying glass, you'll find it useful. Alignment is not a substitute for character development or roleplaying, it's a lens through which to view those things.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-09-29 at 02:12 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    I'd say "alignment" is slightly useful as a player shorthand for saying something about the general type of person they're trying to play, and slightly useful as a tool for reducing intra-party friction. If you insist that all character sheets are public knowledge, and allow the party themselves to police who they do and don't want to hang about with - then there's a significant drop in the number of dice being rolled for intra-party actions, if you get my meaning.

    (This last is optional. I've sat through an entire campaign that was basically the party fighting each other, and found it great fun - and no less so because it took me several weeks to work out what was going on. But it's not for everyone.)
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Also, if the good/evil thing bothers you, it's easy to shift it into a altruistic/pragmatic spectrum. There's a spectrum between largely caring about yourself to caring about your family to caring about your tribe or cultural group to caring about (and willing to risk personally) for an entity vastly different than you (a member of another species living on another country) and HOW much you are willing to sacrifice for that creature.

    In that sense, it's less of a "cultural morality code" and more of a measure of empathy.

    The law/chaos spectrum is perhaps even more interesting in terms of applying to literature and so forth because it actually forces you to step out of the selfish vs. not selfish spectrum. So you have a lawful neutral person and a chaotic good person- who is the preferred college roommate, judge, or neighbor? It forces people to step beyond a base "law abiding= good" mentality, which is actually an exercise in critical thinking. 4.0's elimination of some of the options, IMO, hurt the thinking element of the game more than it helped.

    Again, not a perfect system, but because it has two variables, it actually can be thought provoking.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Retired Mod in the Playground Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    That's because every other game in existence relies on D&D to recruit and train new roleplayers for them. Those games work partly because almost everyone who ever plays them has already learned whatever lessons that alignment has to offer—or is playing with other people who have. You would have a hard time finding a single roleplaying group for any other game where not one member had ever played D&D even once.
    Surprisingly, in my current Pathfinder game, I'm one of two players out of... eight? Nine? That have any experience with D&D at all (not counting the DM). I was kind of confused when I turned out to be the rules expert/deputy DM (as in "look up the full spell/disease/whatever description for me, would you?")

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Alignment system very useful for playing?

    The question for me has always been what the alignment system brings to the table that nothing else can. I've always agreed with Rich that it's a lot less limited and one-dimensional than people argue, but I'm not entirely certain why it's more useful than, say, a "character traits" system.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •