[3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

[Malachei]

The Incantatrix Handbook

R E A D Y _ N O W

Incantare (lat.) -- meaning "to chant (a magical spell) upon," from in- "into, upon" and cantare "to sing" (wikipedia).

Incantatrix (f), Incatator (m). Note WOTC says the male form is Incantatar, which isn‘t proper latin, but their prerogative.

When Gwanath Rafdinen, master assassin, the one they called the silent wings of death, entered the bedroom, all was quiet. It was before dawn, and before the time the early risers would open their eyes. Assaults on wizards were dangerous and delicate, but Gwanath had killed many spellcasters, and he had chosen the time carefully. His informants had given him detailed information on his target‘s habits, and this would be the time before she would rise and prepare her spells. He had passed through the walls as a shade, without skin or bone. When he saw the sleeping figure on the bed, his body took form again to deliver the strike. Carefully, he aimed, his black blade drawing the dim light of the moon. As his weapon passed through the figment, he was surprised to hear a voice coming from the corner. As Lórquelië Coranarya, the one they called the autumn dream, and initiate of the sublime order of Incantatrices, stepped from the ethereal plane, she gave the killer a thin smile, and spoke „I am glad you have come. You find me prepared.“


Contents

1. Contents, Rating System, and Links
2. Introduction
3. Class Abilities, Spellcraft and Persisting
4. Spells to Persist
5. Feat Selection
6. Multiclassing and Builds


Ratings

This handbook will use the following rating system:

Red: Awful.
Purple: Meh.
Black: Okay.
Blue: Good.
Cyan: Excellent.


Useful Links


Being Batman: The Logic Ninja‘s Guide to Wizards

Wizard‘s Handbook by Dictum Mortuum

Treantmonk‘s Guide to Wizards

My thanks go to Saph and her PF Summoner Guide, from which I took most of the formatting style.

[Malachei]

Introduction

Why this Handbook?

Spoiler

Show

It has been argued that the Incantatrix class does not need a Handbook, because it is so incredibly good. While I agree that it is incredibly good, I think building an Incantatrix can still benefit from input. Also, you don‘t want to take the best car to the race without knowing how to drive it.

My personal motivation is threefold: First, I was playing an Incantatrix recently, and I looked for a lot of ideas and found they are scattered all over the various places. As I forget things, I started to make a few notes.

Second, I think my understanding of the Incantratrix can benefit from additional input (although I‘m not interested in optimizing to the limit).

Third, I think it is a wonderful class with great flavor, which is often banned from games, because it is seen as too powerful. While it is powerful, a close look its abilities may show some restrictions that make it a bit less frightening.

Why Play an Incantatrix?

Spoiler

Show

There are so many good things about the Incantatrix, but let me point out just a few:

• You‘ll never leave the house naked again.
• People can‘t spell your name. Bad for Truenamers, too.
• Nobody is surprised when you survive the encounter.
• The Initiate of the 7fold Veil actually shows respect.
• You‘re officially a member of the campaign setting‘s Club of Rome.
• You can begin your sentences with „The order‘s position on this is...“

Also, you can Persist stuff.

Class Entry

Spoiler

Show

This is fairly straightforward:

The requirements for the Incantatrix are:

Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Iron Will, any one metamagic feat
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: Cannot have abjuration as prohibited school

Iron Will: pick up via Otyugh Hole (CS, 3000 GP).

Unless you go exotic, the entry requirements mean you usually advance five levels in wizard or six levels in sorcerer prior to becoming an Incantatrix. As usual, Wizard is the much better choice, unless you can key Spellcraft off your Charisma.

Your Metamagic Feat: Extend Spell is probably the best choice. It gives some use before entry (Extended Rope Trick overnight) and is the pre-requisite for Persistent Spell, which is what your Incantatrix career is all about.

[Malachei]

Class Abilities, Spellcraft and Persisting

Class Abilities

Spoiler

Show

Incantatrix is a Prestige Class packed with cookies. But the best part of becoming an Incantatrix is not that you get something every level. The best part comes right on level 3.

Level 1

Bonus Metamagic Feat: If you‘ve not taken Persistent Spell yet, do it now.

Focused Study (Ex): You have to give up one school of magic in addition to any other schools you might have already given up due to specialization. You cannot give up Abjuration or Divination. The term prohibited school is explained in the PH, 57 and the SRD: „Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.“

If you‘re not an Elven Generalist, chances are you‘re a specialist, perhaps a Conjurer or Abjurer entering Incantatrix, so you‘ll likely have dropped two of Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion and Necromancy.

So what to give up? Enchantment comes to mind, as so many enemies, especially in higher-level play are immune. Of course, Evocation is a hot candidate. As the third school, choose Illusion or Necromancy. Illusion is very valuable and has some nice persist-able spells, so I‘d probably drop Necromancy. I also find this more in line with the Incantatrices flavor text. While they don‘t have an alignment restriction, they dislike extraplanar intrusion and actively work towards closing active portals, which somehow puts them a bit more into the „protectors“ camp.

As a Focused Specialist, your choice is easy, because you give up all of Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion and Necromancy (normally, you‘ll want to be specialized in (or want to keep) Conjuration and Transmutation, and you can‘t give up Abjuration and Divination. Which you wouldn‘t want to do anyway.

As Elven Generalist, you‘ll have to drop only one school, usually one of Enchantment, Evocation or Necromancy, because Illusion is nice. At this point, it really depends on the way you want to play your Incantatrix and the flavor, as well. Personally, I‘d probably drop Necromancy, but there are others who will keep it at all cost.


Level 2

Cooperative Metamagic (Su): You can apply metamagic feats to a spell being cast by another caster. Does not work with Quicken, Still or Silent. That‘s a standard action, and therefore totally worth it outside combat. You must make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 18 + (3 x modified spell level). This is great, because you can now Persist your cleric friend‘s spells. Even better is that you can use this 3 + Int modifier times per day, which lets you chuckle at the Ultimate Magus‘ restraints.

Level 3

But let‘s be honest, you‘re a primary arcane caster. If you had wanted to spend your life buffing others, you would have become the cleric. Now you can buff yourself, all day long:

Metamagic Effect (Su): Your capstone, 7 levels early. Apply a metamagic feat to a spell already in place. This begs for Persistent Spell, of course, and you can use it 3 + Int times per day, as well. All you have to do is make your Spellcraft DC (18 + 3 x modified spell level). From third level on, life is wonderful for you, because you are never caught with your pants down again. The question of winning initiative loses a slight bit of its edge, because you are prepared.

Level 4

Bonus Metamagic Feat: Another one. Twin Spell looks nice.

Level 5

Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su): Now you can apply metamagic to a spell trigger item (wand or staff), paying the metamagic modifier‘s cost with additional charges. This can burn you through your wand quickly, but makes that wand of fireballs, caster level 5 you found in the troll‘s cave actually somewhat worthwhile: A problem with wands is that they are often created at minimum caster level, and often not worth the action it costs to activate them in combat. Also, now you can Chain Spell with your (non-touch-range) buffing wands. Note this is not limited to uses per day. If you have enough wands, go nova.

Level 6

Seize Concentration (Su): Take spells away from others. The range (within 30 ft. of the spellcaster) is a bit of an issue, because if you are that close to another spellcaster, he should not be dangerous to you, which kind of correlates with the quality of spells you could seize. Also, it works only on spells that require concentration. You can do this with a willing ally. In other cases, this requires an opposed caster level check. Although this is situationally useful, I must say I find this to be one of the weaker abilities.

Level 7

Instant Metamagic (Su): Now you can spontaneously apply metamagic to your spellcasting. This is a good ability, but limited to 1/day at 7th and 2/day at 9th. This is when you really need to get the spell out. Quicken Spell is a prime choice, for deadly combinations or just to get away if you must.

Bonus Metamagic Feat: Another one. By now, you are a 12th level caster. Unless you've managed to acquire it already, Quicken Spell is a good idea. Even if you can't use it with Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic, you can with Instant Metamagic and with normal spells. Between a rock and a hard place, the ability to cast a second spell (that also doesn't trigger an AoO) can save your life.

Level 8

Snatch Spell (Su): Now you can take away spells others have put into place. This is Seize Concentration‘s big sister: Don‘t use it to switch off spells unless you must (because it requires another check, and if you fail, control goes back to the original caster). Use it to defeat your enemies with their own battlefield control.You must be within 30 ft. of the spell (not the caster). All the battlefield control spells that let the caster determine targets are great for this: Black Tentacles, Defenestrating Sphere, Howling Chain to name just three.

Level 9: Now you can use Instant Metamagic twice per day. Throw a party. Seriously, because now you can argue to include it in the Incantatrix epic progression (DM alert!).

Level 10

Improved Metamagic (Su): Every metamagic feat‘s modifier is reduced by one, to a minimum of +1. This is great because it reduces the DC for Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic, and the cost for Metamagic Spell Trigger. It almost feels like a capstone, if you hadn‘t gotten that on level 3.

Bonus Metamagic Feat: Another one.

Advice for the Incantatrix player: Your class features are incredibly good. Now go and play with it. Don‘t read every book and try to stack metamagic reducers until your DM is all dizzy. Unless, of course, you feel you are overwhelmed in the game.

Advice for the Incantatrix DM: The number of uses per day is mostly not a problem. At least not a problem you can avoid. A wizard will power Int anyway, so you can‘t avoid that the uses per day increase. The most important aspect are the ways to boost the Spellcraft skill and the list of available spells to persist. If you feel your Incantatrix is too powerful, uses per day are not your lever.

Persistent Spell

Spoiler

Show

Persistent Spell (CAr, 81) is your most important feat. It increases a spell‘s duration to 24 hours, making it last your complete adventuring day and night.

With a +6 metamagic modifier, it comes at a hefty price for other casters, unless they have Divine Metamagic or cheesy Nightsticks. But for you, it just means a +18 on the Spellcraft check DC. Such is the pleasure of skill-based class abilities.

You cannot persist spells that:

• Have a range that is not personal or fixed.
  The first part looks fairly easy: You can persist all spells which have a Range: Personal entry. The second part is more tricky. Obviously, spells with fixed ranges are those whose range is expressed in a fixed amount, such as 60 ft. An examples would be detect magic. Spells with other ranges (Close, Medium, Long, variable ranges) are not fixed-range.
  
  It has been argued that Touch is a fixed range, but IMO, this is not the case. I also think this feat is strong enough by itself. The basic argument to include touch-range spells is that your touch is limited by your reach, and hence fixed. The argument against this would be that, by this reasoning, Personal is also fixed but has been explicitly mentioned. Also, Touch-range changes with size.
  The 3.0 version of the feat in FRCS was more detailed, pointing out that „spells with a range of touch, and spells whose effects are discharged cannot be affected by this feat.“
  This Rules of the Game article offers more on Range Categories. Interestingly, the last category is „Range in Feet“. It would probably have saved a lot of forum space if they had just used this wording in the feat description, as well.
  Note: If you read this and want to open a discussion on Persistent Spell, a good idea would be to open a dedicated thread.
  
  
• Have a duration other than instantaneous or which are discharged.
  So no, you can‘t persist Duelward. But you‘re persisting Battlemagic Perception.
  

Ways to circumvent this restrictions will be discussed in a separate section of this guide (Creative Design).

Advice for the Incantatrix player: Metamagic Effect Persist is a very powerful ability. It is right there with the best class abilities of the game. So when adjudicating whether a spell is persist-able or not, I‘d say err on the side of caution. There are so many spells to persist, and including touch-range spells only makes an already incredibly powerful class more annoying to your DM and fellow players.

So, when talking about Reach Spell and other ways to change the Spell Header, my position is to be careful. A lot of it works by RAW, but ultimately, it is the DMs call. If your DM feels you‘re breaking his game, he‘ll make your character‘s life a pain, or a very short pain.

Spellcraft

Spoiler

Show

This is your most important skill, because it powers your most important class feature, Metamagic Effect.

Obviously, you want Spellcraft to be as high as possible, without causing your DM to throw books at you or make him one-shot you.

A few ways to improve your Spellcraft skill are:

{table=head] Name | Spellcraft | Additional | Type | Source

Apprentice (Spellcaster) | +2 competence | | Feat | DMG2
Courteous Magocracy | +2 | +2 Diplomacy | Feat | FRCS
Divine Insight | +5 + cl, max. +15 | | Spell (Clc, Pal)* | SC
Education | +2 | +2 on another skill | Regional Feat | PGtF
Guidance of the Avatar | +20 competence | | Spell (Clc) | WOTC site
Halruuan Adept | +3 | Participate in circle magic | Regional Feat | Shining South
Heroism | +2 morale | attacks, saves, skill checks | Spell | SRD
Heroism, Greater | +4 morale | attacks, saves, skill checks, fear immunity, temp. hp | Spell | SRD
Insight of Good Fortune | Reroll | | Spell | PH2
Ioun Stone (pale green) | +1 competence | also attacks, saves, all skill & ability checks | Item (30000) | DMG
Loresong | +4 + ½ cl | | Spell | DR335
Magic-Blooded | +2 | A lot, incl. some SLA | Racial Templ. | DR306
Magical Aptitude | +2 | +2 UMD | Feat | PH
Masterwork Tool | +2 circumstance | | Item (50) | SRD
Precocious Apprentice | +2 Spellcraft | Second-level spell slot | Feat | CAr
Shape Soulmeld: Mage's Spectacles | +4 and +2 per essentia insight | Same on UMD, Decipher Script | Feat | Magic of Incarnum
Share Talents | +2 | all skill checks of two people if both have ranks | Spell | PH2
Skill Focus | +3 | | Feat | PH
Spellscale (Io) | ½ character level racial | Empower Spell 3/d | Race | RoD
Spellwise | +2 | +2 Knowledge (arcana) and on saves vs. illusions | Regional Feat | PGtF
Stone of Good Luck | +1 luck | also saves, ability & skill checks | Item (20000) | DMG
Synergy 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) | +2 | | Synergy | PH
Tome of Ancient Lore | +5 | | Item (5500) | MIC

[/table]

Of course, you can craft or acquire custom items if your DM agrees, which gives a competence bonus for bonus² * 100 GP.

Master Specialist is a way to acquire Skill Focus: Spellcraft.

(*) This is on the cleric and paladin list and range: personal. You‘ll need to find a way to get it on you, probably via use magic device (UMD) or spell storing ring.

Moment of Prescience gives you +1 cl (max. 25) insight on one „attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.“ The exact wording implies an opposed check, and therefore, this would not work.

Advice for the Incantatrix DM: You may need to run a tight ship here. Trusting your player to limit pushing is like asking an thirsty man in the desert to spread his water over several days. He may want to, but lack the discipline. For Spellcraft, an obvious option is to ban questionable sources: Many DMs don‘t allow content from Dragon Magazine at all (and for good reason! It is among the more dangerous stuff), and online content only on a case-by-case basis. You can take it one step further and even let her work with core only. Boosting Spellcraft just became a lot harder to do.

Personally, I don‘t think Guidance of the Avatar is balanced, and your DM should probably not allow it (Side note: Have you read this, Phaederkiel? See? Incantatrix has convinced me).

I would also not allow Dragon material. At all.

I find Item Familiars a bit much, so I‘m hesitant to add them. If you want to use them, they‘re found in UA (also in the SRD).

Again, if you want to go to overboard here, you can, of course. It is your game. See the appropriate section (Creative Design).

(this post is WIP)

[Malachei]

Spells to Persist

Spells to Persist

Spoiler

Show

A side note up front: Going through this took me some time. I‘m sure the list contains errors, and spells that are missing, and I‘m happy if you point them out to me.

I‘ve listed Sorcerer / Wizard spells. Of course, you can get access to other spell lists, and there are many wonderful spells to persist there (cleric, for instance). If you want to contribute a list of non-Sorc/Wiz spells, I‘m glad for your contribution.

Finally, I‘ve noticed how short the actual list of good options is. Unless you are into buffing yourself for melee (in which case you‘re probably better off as a druid), you‘ll find that many of the persist-able spells are not particularly useful for a primary arcane caster. There are some gems, of course. A lot of the options come from Dragon Magic, so if your DM is really nervous about this whole persisting business, he may want to allow these only on a case-by-case basis.

Sources are Spell Compendium (SC), Complete Mage (CM), Player‘s Handbook 2 (PH2), Dragon Magic (DM), Races of the Dragon (RotD) and Exemplars of Evil (EE). Note it includes only a small part of the Player‘s Handbook right now. I‘ll finish that within the next few days and may include other sources, as well. I‘ve not included much PH yet, because I had hoped to find a list somewhere.

Level 0
Detect Magic --- This is very interesting, unless you already persist Arcane Sight
Read Magic --- Usually, you‘ll have enough 0-level spell slots
... (more 0-level spells to add)

Level 1
Accelerated Movement (SC) --- Not worth it, because you‘re not a skillmonkey.
Appraising Touch (SC) --- This is one hour per level already and very situational.
Arrow Mind (SC) --- For you, this is really bad. First, you should not be walking around with a bow, you could hurt yourself. Second, you should not be in an enemy‘s threat range. But for your ranger friend, this is much better.
Bigby‘s Helpful Hand (PH2) --- +2 on some skills.
Breath Flare (SC) --- If you have a breath, and have that breath all day, then this is still not a good choice.
Comprehend Languages --- Translate all day. You need to touch the writing or creature, though.
Critical Strike (SC) --- Only if you are a gish, and then this is not that bad.
Cutting Hand (SC) --- Another melee spell, i.e. to be avoided.
Deep Breath (SC) --- For an aquatic adventure, maybe.
Detect Dragonblood (DM) --- Like detect evil, but dragon type or dragonblood subtype.
Disguise Self --- I‘d much prefer Alter Self.
Ectoplasmic Armor (SC) --- It already lasts 1 hour per level.
Expeditious Retreat --- Not bad if you don‘t haste regularly or need the speed all day.
Fist of Stone (SC) --- More damage-dealing. No, thanks.
Ghostly Tail (RotD) --- Sorcerer only. Grow a tail that delivers AoO, 2d6 melee touch.
Golem Strike (SC) --- More melee, this time divination that lets you sneak attack constructs.
Guided Shot (SC) --- Again, great for the ranger.
Hoard Gullet (DM) --- A second stomach to store stuff. 1 hour per level base duration.
Insightful Feint (SC) --- It is only your next Bluff check, so this is not worth it.
Instant Diversion (RotD) --- Like Mirror Image, but the images move away. A Mislead, without invisibility. As the spell text says the doubles move away, the use of persist must be questioned.
Instant Locksmith (SC) --- Due to the wording, this is a bit difficult. Also, you have a
skillmonkey for this.
Instant Search (SC) --- see above
Karmic Aura (CM) --- Fatigue those who harm you. The range is a bit short, but this is still good.
Luminous Gaze (SC) --- Glowing eyes attract attackers, no matter if they are dazzled.
Marked Object (SC) --- Already lasts 24 hrs per level
Master‘s Touch (SC) --- A specific weapon or shield proficiency. Useful for a gish.
Nightshield (SC) --- +1 resistance to saves, to a max. of +3 at caster level 9. Until you have Superior Resistance, this replaces your Cloak.
Path of Frost (DM) --- Area becomes slippery and causes cold damage. This is good.
Reviving Aura (CM) --- This has the [evil] descriptor.
Serene Visage (SC) --- This gives you ½ caster level, max. +10 on Bluff
Shield --- Because +4 to AC all day is nice
Sniper‘s Shot (SC) --- Good for your rogue friend.
Summon Component (CM) --- Get components all day.
Wings of Swift Flying (RotD) --- Increase fly speed by 30 ft. Already 1 hr / level.

Level 2
Aiming at the Target (SC) --- As this stops with the other spell, it is not a good choice to persist.
Alter Self (SC) --- This is great.
Balancing Lorecall (SC) --- Again, you‘re not the skillmonkey. You‘re flying, anyway.
Balor Nimbus (SC) --- Just against a grappler, so this is not worth it. You‘re flying, after all.
Bladeweave (SC) --- This is another retribution spell, and you don‘t want to get hit in the first place.
Body of the Sun (SC) --- You don‘t want them to be that close. Also, the damage is low.
Claws of Darkness (SC) --- Another spell that wants to turn you to melee. Reach, but still, no thanks.
Cloud of Knives (PH2) --- This is excellent to persist, mostly because firing a knife is a free action for you. It‘s much better, of course, if you also have sneak attack.
Daggerspell Stance (SC) --- Now this has a use, because if you fight defensively, you gain SR 5 + caster level. If you‘re a gish, this is great.
Death Armor (SC) --- Creatures striking you take damage. Costs 50. Not good.
Discern Shapechanger (SC) --- If you‘re on a detective adventure, this is good. Normally 1/round per level only.
Ectoplasmic Feedback (SC) --- You don‘t want to get hit in the first place, and if you do, it is still not enough damage to discourage an attacker that drains your levels.
Extend Tentacles (SC) --- If you have tentacles...
Fearsome Grapple (SC) --- Now you get tentacles for grappling. Why would you want to grapple?
Flame Dagger (SC) --- This is for melee again.
Fly, Swift (SC) --- Yes!
Heart of Air (CM) --- Good spell, but at higher levels, one hour per level is best extended.
Inky Cloud (SC) --- Underwater darkness, but this is dispersed by a moderate current in 4 rounds.
Invisibility --- Range is „Personal or touch“, so arguably, you could persist this on yourself.
Levitate --- Range is „Personal or“, so you can, but is this worth it?
Local Tremor (RotD) --- Produce tremors, limited to cl, max. 5, causing creatures to fall prone.
Magic of the Dragonheart (DM) --- Additional benefit from draconic feats and skill checks on heritage class skill. Sorcerer only.
Mirror Image --- Once your images are gone, this is useless. See, however, greater mirror image
Razofangs (SC) --- Another melee spell.
Reflective Disguise (SC) --- Interesting if you are in a hostile area all day.
Scintillating Scales (SC) --- Change your natural armor bonus into deflection.
See Invisibility --- Having this all day is excellent. Note you can see into the ethereal plane.
Shadow Mask (SC) --- Very situational. Interesting if you go to medusa and beholder town.
Shroud of Undeath (SC) --- Good if you good to undead town.
Soul of Anarchy (DM) --- +5 competence on escape artist and grapple, and natural weapons and you are effectively chaotic
Soul of Order (DM) --- +2 morale on will saves vs. enchantment, natural weapons and you are considered lawful.
Surefooted Stride (SC) --- Again, this is for the ranger or rogue. You‘re flying.
Tail Slap (RotD) --- Tail slaps as standard action for 1d6 per 2 cl, max. 10d6 melee touch, and push back. If you‘re become an Incantratrix to spend your standard actions tail-slapping, I can‘t help you out.
Veil of Shadow (SC) --- Miss chance, but the spell is negated in daylight...
Wraithstrike (SC) --- Technically, it works, but if you do this, your DM will probably hate you.


Level 3
Adoration of the Frightful (DM) --- Fear-affected creatures within 60 ft. become friendly, Will negates
Analyze Portal (SC) --- Very situational.
Arcane Sight --- A good effect to persist.
Avoid Planar Effects (SC) --- If you are on a plane-hopping spree, this is good.
Bite of the Wererat (SC) --- If you‘re a gish... but you‘re not, are you?
Blade of Pain and Fear (SC) --- You‘ll probably not want to do touch attacks, as this means you‘re close to your foes.
Blink --- A good effect, but also limits your actions. Better to use greater blink.
Cone of Dimness (SC) --- This blinds anyone entering the area, but they get a new save every round. Well.
Dragonshape, Least (DM) --- Become a tiny pseudodragon. Do you really want to? New polymorph subschool.
Dragonskin (SC) --- +1 natural armor per two caster levels (+5 at 10th) almost feels like being a druid. Except his animal companion packs so much punch.
Evard‘s Menacing Tentacles (PH2) --- Two tentacles from your shoulder attacks as a free action. As with most things that give free actions, this is nice to persist, especially since its duration is originally based on one round per level... if you can stand the looks.
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (DM) --- You gain a morale bonus to melee attacks and damage equal to ½ your caster level and activate true strike once.
Giant‘s Wrath (SC) --- As this is limited to one pebble per three levels, there‘s not much gained from persisting it.
Heart of Water (CM) --- Good spell, but with a base duration of 1 hr / level, this is best extended.
Karmic Backlash (CM) --- Exhaust those who harm you. The range is a bit short, but this is still good.
Mask of the Ideal (CM) --- +4 on Bluff and Diplomacy and on influencing charmed or summoned creatures.
Primal Form (SC) --- You cannot cast spells. If you cast this, you have a problem. If you persist this, you nerf yourself.
Repelling Shield (CM) --- Shield that pushes others away. Not good, because you don‘t want them near you in the first place.
Reverse Arrows (SC) --- While this is limited to 100 points of damage at 10th level, this is still nice.
Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker (CM) -- Be a hell hound all day. New polymorph subschool.
Sonorous Hum (SC) --- This can be very good actually. Especially if you don‘t want to use the Swift Concentration skill trick.
Spectral Weapon (SC) --- Again for melee.
Spellcaster‘s Bane (CM) --- Automatically recognize spells being cast, this is good.
Telepathic Bond, Lesser (SC) --- This is good.
Tremorsense (SC) --- 30 ft. tremorsense is not bad.
Unicorn Horn (CM) --- You grow a unicorn horn. You want to look like that all day?
Vision of the Omniscient Eye (DM) --- +10 insight on spot, protection against blindness and dazzling. Activate faerie fire once if you can see invi.
Wreath of Flames (DM) --- Adjacent enemies take 1d6 fire, and your melee attacks deal the same. Again, you don‘t want them that close.

Level 4
Assay Spell Resistance (SC) --- +10 on caster level checks, but this is good only against one particular creature, and I hope you don‘t fight one creature the whole day.
Aspect of the Icy Hunter (CM) --- Become a winter wolf. New polymorph subschool.
Battle Hymn (SC) --- All allies can reroll will saves. Situationally very useful.
Bite of the Werewolf (SC) --- If you‘re a gish... but you‘re not, are you?
Blinding Breath (SC) --- If you have a breath...
Displacer Form (SC) --- You can cast spells in this form, and this is a physical improvement. If nobody‘s watching...
Dragon Breath (SC) --- If you want to go blasting.
Ethereal Mount (SC) --- A good choice, but the spell lasts 1 hour per level already, so extend will often do.
Fire Shield --- A good choice if you know that you come up against cold or fire damage.
Flame Whips (SC) --- Your forelimbs become whips with 15 ft reach and touch attacks. You‘re rings and other items on your forelimbs don‘t work under this spell, though.
Flight of the Dragon (SC) --- 100 ft. fly speed. Though maneuverability is not that good, this is good.
Foreward (SC) --- Incorporeal creatures must make a Will save to enter, and you can negate a Wall of Force
Friendly Fire (EE) --- If you cast this with a casting time of 1 full round, redirect ranged attacks or ranged touch attacks to other targets within 30 ft. This is better than Ray Deflection.
Heart of Earth (CM) --- Excellent spell, but with a base duration of 1 hr / level, this is best extended.
Hoard Life (RotD) --- Take nonlethal damage to allow healing later. Already 1 hr / level.
Invisibility, Greater --- Range is „Personal or touch“, so arguably, you could persist this on yourself.
Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM) --- Your spells gain the [good] descriptor and < 4th level spells deal +50% against evil. You can invest higher spell slots to raise the limit.
Mirror Image, Greater (PH2) --- This is wonderful, because you get one image per round, up to 8, and the spell refreshes. If all image are destroyed, however, the spell ends.
Otiluke‘s Suppressing Field (CM) --- An emanation that gives SR against a school or subtype of magic. This is great.
Passage of the Shifting Sands (DM) --- You become sand cloud, can activate gust of wind once.
Ray Deflection (SC) --- This is great. No rays can touch you all day. Persist this every day.
Rebuking Breath (SC) --- If you have a breath... this is very situational, but worth it if you‘re going against undead.
Ruin Delver‘s Fortune (SC) --- Really good if you‘re a sorcerer.
Sharptooth (SC) --- Unarmed strike or natural weapon deals damage as if one size category larger... more melee.
Spell Enhancer (SC) --- Only on the next spell cast this round, so not worth it.
Thunderlance (SC) --- A lance of force for you. I wouldn‘t say this is your ideal role, unless you are a gish or fight incorporeal all day.
Touch of the Blackened Soul (DM) --- Your spells gain the [good] descriptor and < 4th level spells deal +50% against evil. You can invest higher spell slots to raise the limit. [evil] spell.
Treasure Scent (SC) --- This is 1 hour per level already.
Trollshape (PH2) --- This gives regeneration 5, and persisted, it is slightly better than binding the Buer Vestige. New polymorph subschool.
Voice of the Dragon (SC) --- +10 to social skills. Situationally useful, especially if you‘ve banned enchantment.


Level 5
Acid Sheath (SC) --- Your basic strategy is not to get hit, so you would not need this if things went fine.
Anticold Sphere (SC) --- Immunity to cold for you and everyone within 10 ft. radius is good.
Bite of the Wereboar (SC) --- If you were a gish... but you‘re not, are you?
Breath Weapon Substitution (SC) --- If you have a breath weapon, and it lasts all day, you can change its energy type, but you have to select when you cast this, so this is meh.
Cacophonic Shield (SC) --- This is a non-safe protection against sonic... situational at best.
Coat of Arms (CM) --- A shield bonus, which you already have.
Contact Other Plane --- Probably, calling all day will not be met with sympathy by the higher being. Requires concentration, as well.
Contingent Energy Resistance (SC) --- Persist affects the one hour per level duration, which is already fine, so not a good candidate.
Dimension Jumper (CM) --- Now you have short-range teleportation all day.
Dispelling Breath (SC) --- If you have a breath... but now we‘re talking. Targeted dispel magic all day.
Dragonsight (SC) --- Blindsense 5 ft. per caster level is nice.
Ethereal Breath (SC) --- If you have a breath... you can now affect ethereal creatures.
Fiendform (SC) --- An evil spell. Aren‘t you fighting these people?
Flaying Tendrils (CM) --- Play being a mind flayer all day.
Form of the Desert Hunter (DM) --- Become a dragonne. New polymorph subschool.
Form of the Threefold Beast (CM) --- Be a chimera all day. New polymorph subschool.
Heart of Fire (CM) --- Excellent spell, but with a base duration of 1 hr / level, this is best extended.
Gutsnake (SC) --- A snake from my belly? Increases from one round per level, so duration-wise, a good deal.
Lord of the Sky (DM) --- Fly at 40 ft. (good maneuverability) and fire lightning, ranged touch, as swift action, which deal 1 point / cl (max. 20) and reduces the target‘s fly speed.
Nightstalker‘s Transformation (SC) --- Leave that to the skillmonkey.
Overland Flight --- Extended, at level 9, this lasts 18 hours.
Radiance (PH2) --- A 60 ft. radius emanation of bright light „that undead find uncomfortable“. So uncomfortable that they are dazzled. Well.
Shadow Form (SC) --- Again, this is for the skillmonkey.
Sonic Rumble (SC) --- Deal 10d6 sonic area damage all day. To deal it requires
concentration though.
Sonic Shield (PH2) --- +4 deflection to AC, anyone who hits you in melee takes sonic damage and must save or be knocked away. Again, you don‘t want to be in melee.
Unicorn Blood (CM) --- Immunities to poison, compulsion and charm.
Zone of Respite (SC) --- An emanation safe against interplanar intrusion, including teleports, and ethereal creatures cannot enter. Situationally very useful.


Level 6
Aura of Evasion (SC) --- Nice. You and everybody within 10 ft. radius gain Evasion. It is expensive, though (500).
Aura of Terror (SC) --- This works when you charge or attack. No thanks.
Bite of the Weretiger (SC) --- If you‘re a gish.... but you‘re not, are you?
Dragonshape, Lesser (DM) --- Become a large young red dragon. New polymorph subschool.
Eyes of the Oracle (DM) --- +2 insight to AC and Reflex, plus ready a standard action even though you‘ve fully acted. The last part is good. Once you take the action, the spell ends.
Karmic Retribution (CM) --- Stun those who harm you. The range is a bit short, but this is still good.
Stone Body (SC) --- DR, immunity to blindness, crits, ability score damage, etc. this is a good persist.
Tenser‘s Transformation --- You don‘t want to become the BSF.

Level 7
Adamantine Wings (CM) --- As this is one hour per level, it‘s best extended.
Animate Breath (SC) --- If you have a breath weapon...
Arcane Spellsurge (DM) --- You reduce spells‘ casting time. This is excellent.
As the Frost (PH2) --- Excellent to persist. This provides immunity to cold, DR 10 / magic
and piercing and creatures within 15 ft. of you take some small damage (2d6) per round. Most importantly, however, those who take damage must save or be slowed for the remaining spell duration... in your case, all day.
Aspect of the Platinum Dragon (DM) --- Be an aspect of Bahamut all day. New polymorph subschool.
Bite of the Werebear (SC) --- If you‘re a gish.... but you‘re not, are you?
Body of War (SC) --- If you are into giving up your spellcasting to become a BSF, then, yes, you can do it all day.
Elemental Body (SC) --- Excellent, but better extended.
Ethereal Jaunt --- This lets you stay ethereal all the time.
Evil Glare (SC) --- You‘ve signed up to protect the campaign setting against the people who would cast this spell, remember?
Glorious Master of the Elements (DM) --- Standard action ranged touch within 60 ft. and you deal 1d6 per two caster levels, max. 10d6 (d8 for dragonblood subtype), plus 2 points each time you hit the same target with this spell. Sweet is that you can choose the energy type before the attack (not when casting the spell).
Justice of the Wyrm King (DM) --- Creatures striking you in melee take 4d6 force.
Kiss of Draconic Defiance (DM) --- Enemies within emanation must save or lose spells they cast, but are immune once saved. Counter spell as immediate action, ends spell.
Kiss of the Vampire (SC) --- If you have no problem that the good guys start hunting you, this can be excellent to persist, giving you four at will powers.
Pulse of Hate (PH2) --- This is a spell with the [evil] descriptor, which causes 2d6 unholy damage to all within a 20 ft. emanation from you.
Retributive Enervation (CM) --- Who hits you in melee gets negative levels.
Unicorn Heart (CM) --- +4 enhancement to checks based on Str, Dex and Con. Also already 1 hour per level base duration.

Level 8
Aspect of the Chromatic Dragon (DM) --- Be an aspect of Tiamat all day. [evil]. New polymorph subschool.
Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant (CM) --- Be a beholder all day. New polymorph subschool.
Ghostform (SC) --- This is a good choice to persist.
Heart of Stone (SC) --- Lasts a year already.
Invisibility, Superior (SC) --- This has range „Personal or touch“, so arguably, on yourself, it could be persisted. Your DM would probably not allow it, though.
Iron Body --- DR and immunities.
Lightning Ring (SC) --- Normally, this is 1 round per 2 levels, an indicator of how good the designers think it is. Well, you don‘t want creatures adjacent, and electricity resistance 20 is really not worth it, but sending two lightning bolts per round as a free action is, unfortunately at caster level 5.
Mind of the Labyrinth (DM) --- Foe who targets you with mind-affecting becomes confused. You can activate dominate person once, which ends spell.
Mysterious Redirection (CM) --- Deflect physical attacks.
Unyielding Form of Inevitable Death (CM) --- Be a marut all day, but you can only use each of its SLAs once. New polymorph subschool.
Veil of Undeath (SC) --- This has the [evil] descriptor.

Level 9
Absorption (SC) --- This is gone after it is expended and has a good duration by itself, so this would rather be a candidate for extending.
Breath Weapon Admixture (SC) --- If you have a breath weapon... this can be interesting, if you need DD.
Dimension Jumper (CM) --- Swift-action teleporting all day, 60 ft.
Dragonshape (PH2) --- Be a red dragon all day. New polymorph subschool.
Enervation Breath (SC) --- If you have a breath... this is nice. Although this sounds like it, it does not have the [evil] descriptor.
Foresight --- Again „Personal or touch“, so on yourself, it would work.
Lash of Force (CM) --- This is very low damage for the spell level.
Shapechange --- So powerful you want it all day.
Undermaster (SC) --- Perfect! From five rounds to the whole day, and you can use one spell as SLA from the list every round, for instance earthquake, flesh to stone or wall of stone.

(this post is WIP)

I am still looking for a sweet formatting here.

[Malachei]

And another reserved post

[Malachei]

And a sixth reserve post.



Epic Incantatrix

Spoiler

Show

{table=head] Level | Special

11 | Instant Metamagic 3/day
12 |
13 | Instant Metamagic 4/day, Bonus Metamagic Feat
14 |
15 | Instant Metamagic 5/day
16 | Bonus Metamagic Feat
17 | Instant Metamagic 6/day
18 |
19 | Instant Metamagic 7/day, Bonus Metamagic Feat
20 |

[/table]

[Malachei]

And a last, 7th one, in case it is needed.

A few comments:

I think even if there are just a handful of people who say this handbook has helped them create a better character, it was worth it, to me. If you don't think it is useless / not needed, well, you don't have to read it.

I'll fill this within the next few days. Please apologize any WIP errors and kindly point me to them. Also, of course, your help is much appreciated.

Also, I have to go hunting for good pictures. If you have suggestions, they're welcome.

Also, please bear with me. Although I've not written handbooks yet, I've looked into a few. I'll likely have mistakes and need you to point them out. I will not be able to do this without you, I'll be grateful for your advice and input, and I want to actually complete this handbook.

As you can see, it is still heavily WIP.

Note on OP:

I'm not looking to give "abuse-advice" here. I think everybody can post on a board and say "I want to break my game, tell me how." I find this really boring. I'm also not posting this on an OP board, because I am not interested whether your Spellcraft can be XXX or XXX+10, if XXX is already incredibly high.

If you want theoretical optimization, or optimization to the limit, this is the wrong place. This is not pimp my wizard, but advice on how you can play an Incantatrix.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Incantatrix handbook, lite edition:

Apply metamagic reducers to win. Min/max your Spellcraft checks to accomplish this.

Have a nice day.

It... doesn't really need a handbook. There aren't any real class options. Take the class, min/max your spellcraft checks, take a bunch of Metamagic feats. Abuse. Done.

[Tvtyrant]

Incantatrix handbook, lite edition:

Apply metamagic reducers to win. Min/max your Spellcraft checks to accomplish this.

Have a nice day.

It... doesn't really need a handbook. There aren't any real class options. Take the class, min/max your spellcraft checks, take a bunch of Metamagic feats. Abuse. Done.

I say we encourage this type of thing! The more handbooks we have the easier it will be for new players to access the material.

[Hirax]

I think this would be a good repository for a build that could be pointed to as one that could beat any non-spellcaster. If anyone is going to be able to do that, it's an incantatrix, because a non-caster will never be able to dispel an incantatrix's buffs.

[FearlessGnome]

I say we encourage this type of thing! The more handbooks we have the easier it will be for new players to access the material.

+1. Casters are scary for those looking into them for the first time. And even the second and the third. There are a heap of options everywhere you look. It's easy to get swamped and give up. A nice guide or two telling you how to get into prestige classes and how to use them helps.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

+1. Casters are scary for those looking into them for the first time. And even the second and the third. There are a heap of options everywhere you look. It's easy to get swamped and give up. A nice guide or two telling you how to get into prestige classes and how to use them helps.

Then look up the old Wizard's guide. That's where all that information is to be found.

[Emperor Tippy]

What's the point in this case?

It's the Incantatrix, there is no real way to mess it up.

Max spellcraft, take Persistent Spell. That's all you need for a build that will fit in just fine in a high op game.

Stack metamagic if you want to be even better.

Grab 3 levels of Archmage afterwards for Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of the Elements (if you go Orb blasting), and Arcane Reach.

Go Elf Generalist using a Grey Elf as your race, grab FMI for one of your feats.

Spend your other 3 Chaos Shuffled weapon proficiencies for Item Reprieve, Spell Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration if you DM will let you to get back your prohibited school.

There, that's a guide to an Incantatrix that includes about 98% of what you need to know.

[Hirax]

Arcane disciple (luck) then SLAing wish with archmage is a nice trick. I'm convinced at this point that wish is legit to be SLAed in this manner, because arcane disciple only restricts you from preparing the spell once a day, not casting it more than once, and that's exactly what occurs. This lets you keep any 4 divine spells of 8th level or lower going.

[FearlessGnome]

What's the point in this case?

It's the Incantatrix, there is no real way to mess it up.

Max spellcraft, take Persistent Spell. That's all you need for a build that will fit in just fine in a high op game.

Stack metamagic if you want to be even better.

Grab 3 levels of Archmage afterwards for Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of the Elements (if you go Orb blasting), and Arcane Reach.

Go Elf Generalist using a Grey Elf as your race, grab FMI for one of your feats.

Spend your other 3 Chaos Shuffled weapon proficiencies for Item Reprieve, Spell Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration if you DM will let you to get back your prohibited school.

There, that's a guide to an Incantatrix that includes about 98% of what you need to know.

This whole post would have made very little sense to me a year ago. Or even a few months, before I read every single wizard-related handbook I could find. There's a lot of terminology there that most people who have played a wizard won't get. Chaos shuffling? Elf Generalist? I get those, but lots of people won't.

The Incantatrix is made of cheese. It's also a good tool for learning how to make a very powerful wizard. And once you've been walked through the Incantatrix, it's easier to start thinking about what else you can do with a bearded old man.

Bottom line - It doesn't hurt that there's a guide, and some people will appreciate it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This whole post would have made very little sense to me a year ago. Or even a few months, before I read every single wizard-related handbook I could find. There's a lot of terminology there that most people who have played a wizard won't get. Chaos shuffling? Elf Generalist? I get those, but lots of people won't.

The Incantatrix is made of cheese. It's also a good tool for learning how to make a very powerful wizard. And once you've been walked through the Incantatrix, it's easier to start thinking about what else you can do with a bearded old man.

Bottom line - It doesn't hurt that there's a guide, and some people will appreciate it.

And again, that's a Wizard Handbook. There's one floating about the forums.

Incantatrix boils down to 'take it, break metamagic, win'.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think a list of persistable arcane spells, and then a list of *good* persistable arcane spells, is in order. I didn't know about Friendly Fire, for instance, until a week or two ago. If a noob wants to join a high op game he's not going to know which spells to persist.

[Emperor Tippy]

This whole post would have made very little sense to me a year ago. Or even a few months, before I read every single wizard-related handbook I could find. There's a lot of terminology there that most people who have played a wizard won't get. Chaos shuffling? Elf Generalist? I get those, but lots of people won't.

The Incantatrix is made of cheese. It's also a good tool for learning how to make a very powerful wizard. And once you've been walked through the Incantatrix, it's easier to start thinking about what else you can do with a bearded old man.

Bottom line - It doesn't hurt that there's a guide, and some people will appreciate it.

But none of what doesn't make sense has anything to do with the Incantatrix class.

If someone wants to make a guide filled with explanations for the various bits of short hand and broken cheese, well that's just fine and dandy.

Take, the Wizard, the Factotum, the Psion, the Sorcerer, the Cleric, the Artificer; they all offer a ton of options, are eminently customizable, and have lots of little hidden tricks. They can all credibly use guides.

Incantatrix has 2 tricks and both are explained in the class 1) use a spellcraft check to apply meta to a spell without the level adjustment, used best with Persistent Spell and 2) get cheaper metamagic, used best to stack meta effects to do things like 500 damage Orbs or 30 negative level envenerations.

That's what the class does, and yes you can make a guide that includes how to buff your spellcraft checks to obscene numbers, how to stack metamagic to an obscene degree, etc. but it's not necessary and doesn't really add anything.

[Morph Bark]

This whole post would have made very little sense to me a year ago. Or even a few months, before I read every single wizard-related handbook I could find. There's a lot of terminology there that most people who have played a wizard won't get. Chaos shuffling? Elf Generalist? I get those, but lots of people won't.

The Incantatrix is made of cheese. It's also a good tool for learning how to make a very powerful wizard. And once you've been walked through the Incantatrix, it's easier to start thinking about what else you can do with a bearded old man.

Bottom line - It doesn't hurt that there's a guide, and some people will appreciate it.

+1.

Though admittably I'd not soon make or use a guide for a PrC so high up on the power level, ever.

[Hirax]

yes you can make a guide that includes how to buff your spellcraft checks to obscene numbers

Cast and persist loresong. Done.

[Optimator]

I say we encourage this type of thing! The more handbooks we have the easier it will be for new players to access the material.

I'm not sure how wise it is making it easier for noob players to break the game with the best prestige class.

[Zeta Kai]

Guys, guys, please. I hear you, & I agree, but just let the man do his thing. Somebody (likely many somebodies) will get some use from this, & it's not your server space or bandwidth, so what's the harm?

The more information that is out there, the better, & some people could use a hand learning the ropes, find what does what, how to break things, & (more importantly) how to NOT break things. I think that this guide, once complete, will be even more useful for DMs who want to at least try the class, & could use a hand in figuring out where the hazards are.

[Malachei]

I'm not writing this to show a new player to break the game. Actually, I think Incantatrix is banned too often and can be kept in check. Not every game is optimizing to the limit, and this handbook will not encourage it. I'll have more on this included in the actual handbook text.

That said, I don't find some of the comments really helpful. If this is not your cup of tea, I respect that. If you think this is nobody's cup of tea, all right, we've heard you.

If there are at least some people who appreciate it, it's worth the work to me.

[Emperor Tippy]

Cast and persist loresong. Done.

Which requires that the person in question has access to Dragon #335.

[Darrin]

The more information that is out there, the better, & some people could use a hand learning the ropes, find what does what, how to break things, & (more importantly) how to NOT break things. I think that this guide, once complete, will be even more useful for DMs who want to at least try the class, & could use a hand in figuring out where the hazards are.

I heartily agree.

I know quite a few high-end optimization tricks, but as a DM I rarely play wizards (too much damned bookkeeping... I got spoiled rotten by the Feng Shui RPG). When needed to design an NPC Incantatrix for a "mini-boss" battle in my campaign, I floundered about quite a bit on feats, skill points, and spell selection. Even though I knew about Incantatrix by reputation, it would have helped to have a handbook to quickly reference: common entry builds, how many ranks of Spellcraft is "enough", what are the best buffs to persist, etc.

And a handbook that addresses the idea of "Ok, your DM is going to freak out and try to nail you with the banhammer. Here's what he's afraid of, and here's how you can assure him you're not going to break his game"? That sounds like it could be pretty darned useful.

[Emperor Tippy]

I heartily agree.

I know quite a few high-end optimization tricks, but as a DM I rarely play wizards (too much damned bookkeeping... I got spoiled rotten by the Feng Shui RPG). When needed to design an NPC Incantatrix for a "mini-boss" battle in my campaign, I floundered about quite a bit on feats, skill points, and spell selection. Even though I knew about Incantatrix by reputation, it would have helped to have a handbook to quickly reference: common entry builds, how many ranks of Spellcraft is "enough", what are the best buffs to persist, etc.

And a handbook that addresses the idea of "Ok, your DM is going to freak out and try to nail you with the banhammer. Here's what he's afraid of, and here's how you can assure him you're not going to break his game"? That sounds like it could be pretty darned useful.

That's the thing, all you have to do is grab whatever Metamagic feats you want and put max ranks into spellcraft. That gives you an incantatrix that is more powerful than a straight wizard on the same level and it really doesn't require any work.

Work comes when you want to optimize an incantatrix. That's when you get persistent Loresong, Buttefly Familiars, FMI Grey Elves, Chaos Shuffle, mailman stacking of metamagic/meta reducers, a list of persisted spells 2 pages long, etc.

If you want a guide for how to maximize an Incantatrix, that's one thing; but the OP isn't talking about making such a guide. He's talking about making one for Incantatrixs that are allowed in normal op play, and for that you just put skill points into Spellcraft and ban either Evocation, Necromancy, or Enchantment.

[Frosty]

He's talking about making one for Incantatrixs that are allowed in normal op play

Why allow Incantatrixes at all in normal levels of op?

[Hirax]

Why allow Incantatrixes at all in normal levels of op?

Pretty much. It's why I mentioned loresong, because if incantatrix is allowed at all, I have a hard time believing much is going to be forbidden (only things like chaos shuffle are things I can imagine still being forbidden). Incantatrix is a go big or go home sort of class.

[Draz74]

I dunno. Sometimes it's fun to take something crazy-powerful like Incantatrix and use it in a terribly sub-optimal way, and come out somewhere in the middle in terms of power.

I look forward to seeing the options this Handbook can offer.

[Cog]

Why allow Incantatrixes at all in normal levels of op?

On a Warlock/DFA Nosomatic Chirurgeon build it wouldn't be nearly so devastating. Granted, that's about as much of a corner case as they come...