OOTS #1099 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

Is that so?

YEs, because they aren't CLASS levels, they're Racial Levels.

Race hasn't been a class since the OLD school D&D. :p

[goodpeople25]

Okay here's the d20srd page for monsters as races. Not sure what other relevant pages there are.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
The first few sections seem the relevant ones. Honestly it seems pretty inconclusive and the language is still pretty beyond me. (Use of effectively and quotations don't help)

Tbh I think we're into "up a level, down a level" shenanigans with what class means. I think "character class" is something monstrous humanoid levels absolutely isn't but class is tricker. (But again no D&D experience and I still feel lost whenever the D&D terms come out in force)

[Shining Wrath]

From here.

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

That's an explicit statement that a monster character with 2 or more hit dice may have no class levels.

Here's the "minotaur as player character block".

Minotaurs As Characters
Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits.

+8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.
Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
+5 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +2.

Note that a minotaur has 6 levels of monstrous humanoid, but a level adjustment of 2. If "monstrous humanoid" were an actual class, then 6 levels of MH would raise the ECL of the PC by 6, not 2.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's probably because of a little scientific fact known as the precession of the equinoxes, which present day western astrologers continue to ignore. The zodiac constellations and the apparent relative positions of the sun, moon, and planets are not where the system says they are. For heaven's sake, all they have to do is look up at the sky. Which they don't. Because they are still living in 4,000 B.C. ancient Babylon, apparently.

500 BC, actually. that's about the point where the spring equinox coincided with the start of Aries. Things move about a day a century, so we're most of the way through Pisces at this point (hence the song about "The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius", although they're a few centuries early).

[Shining Wrath]

500 BC, actually. that's about the point where the spring equinox coincided with the start of Aries. Things move about a day a century, so we're most of the way through Pisces at this point (hence the song about "The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius", although they're a few centuries early).

There's also a 13th sign now, due to precession of the pole the sun rises for a brief period in Ophidius. But don't tell the astrologers.

[Jasdoif]

Is that so?

Yeah, the whole "we're not going to call monster hit dice 'class levels'. Even though we're going set up hit dice by type the exact same way we set up levels by class. And give them all the basic properties we give any class, all the way down to having proficiencies for the first level and skill points per level. But they're not classes!" was kind of needlessly overworded.

Then again, poor choice in terms isn't without precedent. And this is still the game where "an incorporeal touch attack is not a touch attack" can be said accurately and with a straight face.

Note that a minotaur has 6 levels of monstrous humanoid, but a level adjustment of 2. If "monstrous humanoid" were an actual class, then 6 levels of MH would raise the ECL of the PC by 6, not 2.

Like you conveniently just quoted, "racial Hit Dice" and "character class levels" both count towards ECL; so a base minotaur does indeed have an ECL of 8.

[Kish]

I concede that the SRD does state "class levels" as something someone with monstrous humanoid levels can possibly not have. And thus what I said was technically wrong. Change it to "all vampires have levels, whether class or something-not-called-class, and on an unrelated note there's at least one D&D writer who could give Nale lessons on being needlessly complicated."

[Shining Wrath]

I concede that the SRD does state "class levels" as something someone with monstrous humanoid levels can possibly not have. And thus what I said was technically wrong. Change it to "all vampires have levels, whether class or something-not-called-class, and on an unrelated note there's at least one D&D writer who could give Nale lessons on being needlessly complicated."

It's probably not that there's one writer who could give Nale lessons on needless complexity. It's all the different authors who didn't memorize each other's stuff, or think about how their stuff would interact with the other writer's stuff. It's a rules lawyer's dream, or nightmare, depending upon alignment.

Anyway, all vampires were something else before they were vampires, which ought to make some difference in how they go about vampiring. In 3.5, they write it out as a template. In 5e, they give a couple of examples and leave it up to the DM. Current campaign, I've got a vampire who was a fallen deva before getting drained; he retains some of the deva powers.

[alwaysbebatman]

It's probably not that there's one writer who could give Nale lessons on needless complexity. It's all the different authors who didn't memorize each other's stuff, or think about how their stuff would interact with the other writer's stuff. It's a rules lawyer's dream, or nightmare...

I just want to point out, since we've stumbled upon the topic: I'm not sure how widely known this interpretation is, but the above that Shining Wrath was talking about?

That's the Snarl. Or what the Snarl is a metaphor for, anyway...

[factotum]

It's probably not that there's one writer who could give Nale lessons on needless complexity. It's all the different authors who didn't memorize each other's stuff, or think about how their stuff would interact with the other writer's stuff.

Pretty sure all this stuff about racial levels was added in 3.0, wasn't it? Certainly in 1st edition AD&D a monster had a certain number of Hit Dice, but those weren't treated as levels--so they usually also had to have a statement saying they made saving throws as, say, "5th level fighter" because otherwise there'd be no way to know what their saves were.

[Ruck]

Thanks for the explanation guys ! I think it was the whole NPC-class vs PC-class that got me confused.

Yeah, NPCs can have PC classes.

[Skull the Troll]

There's also a 13th sign now, due to precession of the pole the sun rises for a brief period in Ophidius. But don't tell the astrologers.

Dammit, I've never had a forum change my sign before...

[Hardcore]

Increases AC armor or shields give for several hours (doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses to armor so it works best on less magical armor.

Like Roys armor IOW. I thought it was something spell enhancing that V could use.

(I suppose it won't be much help against Durkula.)

Tnx!

[Keltest]

Pretty sure all this stuff about racial levels was added in 3.0, wasn't it? Certainly in 1st edition AD&D a monster had a certain number of Hit Dice, but those weren't treated as levels--so they usually also had to have a statement saying they made saving throws as, say, "5th level fighter" because otherwise there'd be no way to know what their saves were.

They made saving throws as a fighter of equal level to the number of hit dice the had unless it was something like 8+8, in which case it was a level higher.

[F.Harr]

Ha! You don't even have teeth you hollow-boned flying goob!

I like Blackwing. s/he's fun.

Everyone knows that corvids are gender ambiguous except to each other, right?

[danielxcutter]

Ha! You don't even have teeth you hollow-boned flying goob!

I like Blackwing. s/he's fun.

Everyone knows that corvids are gender ambiguous except to each other, right?

Blackwing is specifically a he, I believe.

[dtilque]

There's also a 13th sign now, due to precession of the pole the sun rises for a brief period in Ophidius. But don't tell the astrologers.

Ophiuchus, actually. I don't think it's from precession, but rather that the IAU gave the constellations exact boundaries in 1930. Before that, the constellations were not well defined. If astrologers ignore this, it will make no difference in their predictions. Ditto if they don't ignore it.

[sillymel]

Ophiuchus, actually. I don't think it's from precession, but rather that the IAU gave the constellations exact boundaries in 1930. Before that, the constellations were not well defined. If astrologers ignore this, it will make no difference in their predictions. Ditto if they don't ignore it.

Well, yeah, it would be 50% accurate either way, for yes or no predictions. (By the way, a completely random guess would also be 50% accurate.)

[Kish]

That's inaccurate. If someone predicts that you'll be eaten by giant snails, what are the odds that it's right?

Hint: Not 50%.

[alwaysbebatman]

Uh uh. Everything either happens or doesn't happen. 50/50.

[Kish]

I predict that when you go to post a follow-up to that post, your arm will turn into a black hole.

Better not risk it; that's a 50% chance of destroying the whole world.

[Keltest]

I predict that when you go to post a follow-up to that post, your arm will turn into a black hole.

Better not risk it; that's a 50% chance of destroying the whole world.

Having a 50% chance of randomly guessing the correct answer is different from each answer having a 50% chance of being correct if you guess it.

[jere7my]

That's inaccurate. If someone predicts that you'll be eaten by giant snails, what are the odds that it's right?

Hint: Not 50%.

It's closer to 85%, I'm afraid. But that news might not have gotten widespread media coverage yet.

[danielxcutter]

It's closer to 85%, I'm afraid. But that news might not have gotten widespread media coverage yet.

Can I sig this? And the nested quote of Kish's too if he'll let me?

[jere7my]

Can I sig this? And the nested quote of Kish's too if he'll let me?

I would be honored, for the brief interlude we have before the snails.

[Knaight]

Note that a minotaur has 6 levels of monstrous humanoid, but a level adjustment of 2. If "monstrous humanoid" were an actual class, then 6 levels of MH would raise the ECL of the PC by 6, not 2.

That's not how RHD and LA work - they both add to ECL. A minotaur has an ECL of 8, not 2 (which is in keeping with the excessive overestimates, as there's a case for straight up negative LA for anything with RHD). A vampire minotaur thus has an ECL of 16 before any class levels are added, while only sporting a CR of 6 (although to be fair a lot of that is that the vampire template has excessive LA).

[Kish]

Can I sig this? And the nested quote of Kish's too if he'll let me?

Of course.

[KorvinStarmast]

Based on this latest digression, I'd say we are in dire need of the next strip so that we have something to discuss that is on topic.

[JumboWheat01]

Based on this latest digression, I'd say we are in dire need of the next strip so that we have something to discuss that is on topic.

But causing epic levels of thread drift is a GitP specialty!

[Fyraltari]

That's inaccurate. If someone predicts that you'll be eaten by giant snails, what are the odds that it's right?

Hint: Not 50%.

It's closer to 85%, I'm afraid. But that news might not have gotten widespread media coverage yet.

The world called the French mad for eating snails ; well WHO'S LAUGHING NOW ?!
The English, of course.