MTG Share your Card Designs II

[Ninjaman]

Server downtime ate my reply. I'm not going to write up a new one.

[Ninjaman]

Some designs, some simple, some more complicated:

Mountain Regent - 3RR
Creature - Dragon - R
Flying
When Mountain Regent enters the battlefield, it deals 4 damage to any target.
4/4

Attack of Dragons - 6RR
Sorcery - R
Put three 4/4 red Dragon creature tokens with flying onto the battlefield.

Eridan, Twilight Knight - 2WB
Legendary Creature - Vampire Knight - R
Lifelink
Pay 4 life: Eridan, Twilight Knight gains firststrike until end of turn.
Pay 4 life: Eridan, Twilight Knight gains deathtouch until end of turn.
4/4

Cruel Master - 2BB
Creature - Spirit Noble - R
Protection from creatures with -1/-1 counters.
When Cruel Master enters the battlefield, put a -1/-1 counter on each of up to two target creatures.
3/1

Dreamstutter - 1(U/B)
Creature - Faerie Wizard - U
Flying
Dreamstutter can’t block.
When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block or be blocked this turn.
2/1

False Disciple - 1W
Creature - Human Cleric - R
Lifelink
2W: Destroy target creature blocking False Disciple.
2/1

[enderlord99]

Why is Eridan a Vampire Knight rather than a Troll, a Merfolk, a Troll Merfolk, or a Troll Noble?

Also: he's a Prince, not a Knight.

EDIT: Wait... different Eridan?

[Ninjaman]

Eridan is not a reference to anything, it's just a random name.

[-D-]

Attack of Dragons - 6RR
Sorcery - R
Put three 4/4 red Dragon creature tokens with flying onto the battlefield.

Entreat the Angels is a similar spell, althought a mythic, costs XXWWW. This should probably cost 6RRR.

There is Decree of Justice, of the same rarity that costs even more, so Entreat is the best-case scenario.

Nit - correct wording is "Create" not "Put".

Dreamstutter - 1(U/B)
Creature - Faerie Wizard - U
Flying
Dreamstutter can’t block.
When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block or be blocked this turn.
2/1

Seems like power-creep over the 1U or 1B - Flying, Can't block Bear. I'd probably make it (U/B)(U/B). I think two-color mana is a must, but maybe both should be hybrid. Otherwise nice, effect. ETB strikes me more like a red effect than black.

False Disciple - 1W
Creature - Human Cleric - R
Lifelink
2W: Destroy target creature blocking False Disciple.
2/1

I quite like this design. Very cash money.

The rest of them seem fine, the vampire is ok, albeit not too exciting. I'd probably give it indestructible for a price, but lower it's toughness. I mean compare it to Adanto Vanguard or Pitiless Pontiff.

[Ninjaman]

Entreat the Angels quite similar spell, that's a mythic costs XXWWW. This should probably cost 6RRR.

The fact that Entreat is flexible and has miracle should definitely be enough to warrant at least a one mana discount on Attack of Dragons.
I'm kind of digging making it cost tripple red though, since there are three dragons.

There is Decree of Justice, of the same rarity that costs even more, so Entreat is best-case scenario.

The thing about Decree of Justice is that probably around 90% of the time it cycled to make soldiers, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Be very weary about comparing X spells with non-X spells, because X spells get a lot of flexibility that needs to be balanced, so you're typically overpaying

Also, the correct wording seems to be "Create" not "Put".

You're right, it was an old design that I dug up, so it had old wording.

Seems like power-creep over the 1U or 1B - Flying, Can't block Bear.

I'm not sure what card you're referring to. There are commons which this is allowed to be better than. On Uncommon there are Olivia's Bloodsworn and Order of Midnight, both which also have very relevant upsides, so I don't think power-creep applies in this instance.

I'd probably make it (U/B)(U/B). I think two-color mana is a must, but maybe both should be hybrid. Otherwise nice, effect.

Neither "Target creature can't block this turn" or "Target creature can't be blocked this turn" are very powerful effects, both existing on 1 mana cantrips, so I'm not sure why you would think that.

ETB strikes me more like a red effect than black.

Red don't get general unblockable, black does.

[-D-]

The fact that Entreat is flexible and has miracle should definitely be enough to warrant at least a one mana discount on Attack of Dragons.
I'm kind of digging making it cost tripple red though, since there are three dragons.

The thing about Decree of Justice is that probably around 90% of the time it cycled to make soldiers, so it's not really a fair comparison.

I don't think Entreat is undercosted. Your example is essentially a 12/12 flyer for 8 mana. Find me a card that has that stats?

I'm not sure what card you're referring to. There are commons which this is allowed to be better than. On Uncommon there are Olivia's Bloodsworn and Order of Midnight, both which also have very relevant upsides, so I don't think power-creep applies in this instance.

Yes, this is Order of Midnight + unblockable/can't block effect. It still should have higher price than Order of Midnight. Hybrid cost is easier to pay than single mana cost. In essence it's lesser.

Red don't get general unblockable, black does.

Red does get an unblockable effect. As in, the target creature can't block or target creature can't be blocked (although with pow < X or another limiter).

[Ninjaman]

I don't think Entreat is undercosted.

I never said you did?

Your example is essentially a 12/12 flyer for 8 mana.

No it's not. One large body and several smaller bodies are different thing. I'd say smaller bodies are generally better, but they are different things, you can't compare them like this.

Find me a card that has that stats?

Broodmate Dragon is two 4/4 flyers for 6 mana, so three 4/4 flyers for 8 should be fine. Also Broodmate Dragon is a creature which is generally going to be an upside.
Crush of Wurms give you 18 non-flying power and toughness 9 mana, and it flashbacks for 12.
Desolation Twin gives you 20 non-flying power and toughness for 10 mana.
Cast off 7 forests Howl of the Nightpack makes 14 non-flying power and toughness for seven mana.
Cast off 6 lands Kalonian Twingrove is 12 non-flying power and toughness for 6 mana.

Yes, this is Order of Midnight + unblockable/can't block effect. It still should have higher price than Order of Midnight. Hybrid cost is easier to pay than single mana cost. In essence it's lesser.

You're aware there is more text on Order of Midnight, right? Order of Midnight has an adventure which is card advantage. My card has a one shot effect which isn't very powerful.

Red does get an unblockable effect.

Notice I said "Red don't get general unblockable.", not "Red don't get unblockable."

As in, the target creature can't block

That's not unblockable.
Yes red has that, and black has that too.
Blue doesn't get that, but like white they get tap, which in a similar vein can be used to remove a blocker. Hybrid cards are allowed to squeeze things a little to do things the color doesn't do this way normally, but can do similar things. For instance hybrid white/green or white/black can regenerate creatures, even though white doesn't normally regenerate creatures, because white gets to protect things.
It's weird that you said the ETB seems more red than black, because black is actually the only color this creature could be if it was mono colored.

or target creature can't be blocked (although with pow < X or another limiter).

Yes Tunneler ability is red, also stuff like can only be blocked by defenders, but straight up unblockable isn't in red, while it is in both black and blue.

[-D-]

I never said you did?

You did imply it, by saying

The fact that Entreat is flexible and has a miracle should definitely be enough to warrant at least a one mana discount on Attack of Dragons.

and by defending a mythic -> rare card, that is cheaper than the mythic variant.

No it's not. One large body and several smaller bodies are different things. I'd say smaller bodies are generally better, but they are different things, you can't compare them like this.

Pretty sure it is, all cards obey certain laws. E.g. for X mana (one or more colored) you get a common vanilla X/X, 2 generic mana is about 1 colored mana, etc. You can make cards that are above or below the curve, but that comes with its sets of downsides or benefits respectively.

Broodmate Dragon is two 4/4 flyers for 6 mana, so three 4/4 flyers for 8 should be fine. Also, Broodmate Dragon is a creature that is generally going to be an upside.

So casting 5 generic mana is the same as casting WUBRG?

Even if you counted it that way, i.e. two 4/4 for 6, means three should still be 9 mana. With 3 colored mana. Of different colors.

Crush of Wurms

Green gets big creatures. Plus they don't have evasion.

Desolation Twin

This one both costs more and again no evasion.

Howl of the Nightpack, Kalonian Twingrove

Sure, but green gets big creatures, and these don't have evasion (or even semi evasion like trample). Another thing, this requires going mono-green, which isn't a normal assumption for Limited or most constructed decks.

You're aware there is more text on Order of Midnight, right? Order of Midnight has an adventure which is card advantage. My card has a one shot effect which isn't very powerful.

Order of Midnight is a fancier split card. Both parts of it are comparable, with added bonus of it being more flexible.

But even if that. A 1{B/U} is still essentially cheaper than 1B.

Notice I said "Red don't get general unblockable.", not "Red don't get unblockable."

And notice I said the effect strikes me as more red.

I don't think I saw a black ETB effect that makes creature can't block. They only get to do that by trading card advantage i.e. enchantment.

Hybrid cards are allowed to squeeze things a little to do things the color doesn't do this way normally, but can do similar things. For instance hybrid white/green or white/black can regenerate creatures, even though white doesn't normally regenerate creatures, because white gets to protect things.

I don't think that's true. Hybrid must be valid in both color combos. Wizards not following their own rules, however, would not surprise me.

White can regenerate creatures. Although regenerate is less used, because indestructible is the way white does it now, there were some Modern viable cards that have Regenerate (Suture Spirit, Revered Dead).

[Ninjaman]

You did imply it, by saying

The fact that Entreat is flexible and has a miracle should definitely be enough to warrant at least a one mana discount on Attack of Dragons.

I'm majorly confused now. Did you mean to say you don't think Entreat the Angels is overcosted?
I really can't see why me saying that a less flexible card should be more efficient than a more flexible card is implying that you think Entreat the Angels is undercosted.

and by defending a mythic -> rare card, that is cheaper than the mythic variant.

Did you just miss the part you just reposted about the flexibility and the miracle cost?
Rare vs Mythic Rare will only possibly have impact on power level in a limited format, and an 8 mana sorcery that will probably win you the game is allowed to be a rare.

Pretty sure it is,

That's just wrong though.
Do you have a source or anything?

all cards obey certain laws. E.g. for X mana (one or more colored) you get a common vanilla X/X,

That's not at all a law.
1/1s for 1 with no abilities are always bad.
Blue don't get 2/2s for 1C without a downside.
I think only green gets 3/3s for 2C without downsides at common, and only green and white gets to do it at all outside of Magus of the Wheel and Magus of the Will, both which weren't printed in standard legal sets.
Only green gets 4/4s for 3C without downsides, and the one card that has that was from last year. Before that no color had a 4/4 for 3C without downsides. If a 4/4 for 4 has no downsides then it pretty much needs to cost double colored mana.

2 generic mana is about 1 colored mana, etc.

This is so outrageously false it hurts. 2 generic is so much more than 1 colored mana.
Ancient Tomb is way better than City of Brass, even though it deals 1 more damage.
Worn Powerstone comes into play tapped. Manaliths variants get all kinds of upsides.
A 3/3 for CC is much better than a 3/3 for 2C.
A 2/2 for C is much better than a 2/2 for 2.

You can make cards that are above or below the curve, but that comes with its sets of downsides or benefits respectively.

When you get to 8 drops this idea of above and below the curve stops mattering.
Kalonian Tusker being +1/+1 over the curve is huge, Vortclaw being +1/+1 over the curve doesn't matter much.

So casting 5 generic mana is the same as casting WUBRG?

My card doesn't cost 5 generic and Broodmate Dragon doesn't cost WUBRG. You could easily use Broodmate Dragon as an argument for my card costing 5RRR, I even admitted I think it's nicer that way, you could possibly even make the argument that it should cost 4RRRR, but you shouldn't be making the argument that it has cost 6RRR, that's just misunderstanding powerlevel.

Even if you counted it that way, i.e. two 4/4 for 6, means three should still be 9 mana. With 3 colored mana. Of different colors.

I already explained, it doesn't work that way.
Gigantosaur is a 10/10 for GGGGG, that should mean I could make a 4/4 for GG, right?
Desolation Twin is two 10/10s for 10, that should mean 2 3/3s for 3 should be alright.

The power of a spell doesn't scale linearly with the cost, so you can't use that as a comparison.
You're also missing that being a creature is better than being a sorcery.

Green gets big creatures. Plus they don't have evasion.

Most colors get big creatures. Crush of Wurms isn't a very good card, and it makes more power for mana than my card does, and has flashback. I'm not saying Crush of Wurms is a better card, it's definitely weaker, but Crush of Wurms is a weak card, so a card being stronger than Crush of Wurms isn't exactly a crime. My point was just that getting lots of power on multiple creatures for less mana isn't unheard of on very expensive spells.

This one both costs more and again no evasion.

It also makes more power for the cost and is a cast trigger.

Sure, but green gets big creatures, and these don't have evasion (or even semi evasion like trample). Another thing, this requires going mono-green, which isn't a normal assumption for Limited or most constructed decks.

In what world is 4/4s big creatures? In what world is 2/2s big creatures for that matter?
Being Mono green is a big ask, which is also why both create way more power than my card does.

Order of Midnight is a fancier split card. Both parts of it are comparable, with added bonus of it being more flexible.

You're aware that with an adventure you can cast both parts right?
Both parts of it aren't comparable. The adventure is horrible by itself. It would cost B at common, paying 1B at uncommon is really bad if you only got that. But the fact that you get that along with a very relevant body changes that completely.
Order of Midnight essentially has a kicker you can cast before you even cast the spell. Kickers are strong. Adventure is stronger.
Your idea that my card is power creeping Order of Midnight is purely your failure to understand the power of the Adventure mechanic.
My card is much more efficient than Order of Midnight, but Order of Midnight is much more value.

But even if that. A 1{B/U} is still essentially cheaper than 1B.

It is, and it 1(U/B) was too good I might change it to 1B, but you have yet to provide a proper argument for why it would be.
Going from 1B to 1(U/B) takes the creature from 2/2 to 2/1.
The question is then purely if Dreamstutter having its ETB is comparable with Order of Midnight having its adventure. That's a difficult comparison, since one is a powerful effect with a cost, while the other is a low powered effect for free.

And notice I said the effect strikes me as more red.

But why would you say that when the effect isn't red?

I don't think I saw a black ETB effect that makes creature can't block. They only get to do that by trading card advantage i.e. enchantment.

That's irrelevant, the fact that black can give it on enchantments mean it can also give it on ETBs, card advantage has nothing to with it. If you made a more expensive version of the enchantment and made it cantrip it wouldn't stop being black.

What would actually be a better point is that black don't really get effects that just make a creature unblockable. It gets unblockable creatures and it gets menace along with fear and intimidate in the past. It's still probably close enough that it's okay for a U/B hybrid card, but it actually puts it in the weird spot where it needs to be hybrid.

I don't know, maybe I should just make it a 2/2 for UB and remove the can't block clause?

I don't think that's true. Hybrid must be valid in both color combos. Wizards not following their own rules, however, would not surprise me.

No it absolutely is true, Maro even said so himself.

"Second, I feel like it's acceptable for colors to pull outside of their base area of abilities. A white hybrid card, as an example, can regenerate things that white doesn't normally get to regenerate because white as a color has a philosophy of protecting things. The stretch does not pull white outside of its color philosophy."
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...t-3-2008-05-23

I'd argue that it is within the color philosophy of both black and blue to make creatures hard to block or to keep creatures from blocking.

White can regenerate creatures. Although regenerate is less used, because indestructible is the way white does it now,

Indestructible is the way every color does it now, regenerate has been removed. Black gets indestructible now.

there were some Modern viable cards that have Regenerate (Suture Spirit,

That's Hybrid for the activation, exactly proving my point.

Revered Dead).

That's a color shifted card from Planar Chaos, those specifically don't count, as their entire purpose was to take existing cards and put them in a different color.
Rule number 1 in color pie discussions is never mention anything from Time Spiral block, as that block did not follow the rules.

[-D-]

I'm majorly confused now. Did you mean to say you don't think Entreat the Angels is overcosted?


Did you just miss the part you just reposted about the flexibility and the miracle cost?

Entreant without Miracle, would probably still be mythic. It's too Limited warping IMO.

It being Miracle and flexible doesn't matter. See entreat the dead.

That's just wrong though.
Do you have a source or anything?

Not for everything, but the thing is, when you see certain patterns in the design appearing, again and again, you realize it's not a coincidence. These aren't fixed however, MTG RnD is pivoting to 3CMC 3/2 for a while.

Even then, for X mana and Y card you generally get some amount of stats. That proportion is generally the same across most creatures.

That's not at all a law.
1/1s for 1 with no abilities are always bad.

You might be right, it maybe is just X/X for X mana with one or more colors. Perhaps rarity doesn't figure into it.

This is so outrageously false it hurts. 2 generic is so much more than 1 colored mana.

It's not. There were entire blocks using this principle, see monocolored hybrid mana.

A 3/3 for CC is much better than a 3/3 for 2C.
A 2/2 for C is much better than a 2/2 for 2.

Well, no. CC comes with deck restrictions. You want to play it in hybrid color, that's probably turn 4 3/3.
Only example of 2/2 for C, was something that enters tapped, so it's unusable for a turn, or a thing that comes with a downside, or a that one snow elemental that uses snow mana.

When you get to 8 drops this idea of above and below the curve stops mattering.

At ten or more mana, it is expected that the thing you're summoning is supposed to end the game.

My card doesn't cost 5 generic and Broodmate Dragon doesn't cost WUBRG. You could easily use Broodmate Dragon as an argument for my card costing 5RRR, I even admitted I think it's nicer that way, you could possibly even make the argument that it should cost 4RRRR, but you shouldn't be making the argument that it has cost 6RRR, that's just misunderstanding powerlevel

I already explained, it doesn't work that way.
Gigantosaur is a 10/10 for GGGGG, that should mean I could make a 4/4 for GG, right?

And I explained already.

Having something cost WUBRG is a horrible deck restrictions. Take an idealized scenario - you draw random land every other turn. Your hand contains 3 lands always.
With 5 generic mana you are guaranteed to play it on turn 5.
With WUBRG, you are almost guaranteed won't play it on turn 5.

Now add mana flood and mana screw and I hope you see why I told you about 2 generic being worth about one colored.

So, sure Gigantosaur can be GGGGG because green A) gets the biggest creatures B) it forces either a mono-green deck or playing it way latter (almost around turn 10).

The power of a spell doesn't scale linearly with the cost, so you can't use that as a comparison.

True, however, for all balancing and related purposes creature creating spells are creature spells.

Most colors get big creatures.

Yeah, but green generally gets the biggest creatures. And the biggest creatures for CMC.

In what world is 4/4s big creatures? In what world is 2/2s big creatures for that matter?

In aggregate. At end of turn, a stat is a stat.

You're aware that with an adventure you can cast both parts right?

Yeah. But so can fuse card. So can aftermath. Etc. Thosre are considered split cards.

Your idea that my card is power creeping Order of Midnight is purely your failure to understand the power of the Adventure mechanic.

The question is then purely if Dreamstutter having its ETB is comparable with Order of Midnight having its adventure. That's a difficult comparison, since one is a powerful effect with a cost, while the other is a low powered effect for free.

Sure, but there is also Olivia's Bloodsworn.

It's power creeping by adding an effect , OoM needs to pay for its adventure, this doesn't pay for anything. And effectively costs less by being a hybrid cost.

But why would you say that when the effect isn't red?

Ok, I was wrong, but giving it a conditional unblockable/can't block wouldn't be too hard.

That's a color shifted card from Planar Chaos, those specifically don't count, as their entire purpose was to take existing cards and put them in a different color.
Rule number 1 in color pie discussions is never mention anything from Time Spiral block, as that block did not follow the rules.

Maybe, but they are reprinting white cards, especially Dawn Charm. So I'm not sure where you get that...

Also your statement that means there are other white cards that regenerate like Death Ward and Horizon Seed.

Maro even said so himself.

I'll try to find the exact quote, but R&D disqualified a participant from GDS noting that his hybrid card used what was outside of scope for both sides of hybrid.

Not to mention I think one question did specifically mentioned that Wolverine can be a white creature with regenerate.

[Ninjaman]

Entreant without Miracle, would probably still be mythic.

Not it wouldn't. It doesn't feel very mythic without the miracle.

It's too Limited warping IMO.

Creating two 4/4s for 7 mana isn't limited warping, and 9 is a very high price in limited, a 9 mana rare is allowed to be game winning.

It being Miracle and flexible doesn't matter.

That is so absurdly false.
For flexibility look at any modal card. Look at any fireball effect.
For miracle, compare:
Temporal Mastery with Part the Waterveil.
Terminus with Hallowed Burial.
Thunderous Wrath with Explosive Impact.
Vanishment with Set Adrift or Totally Lost.

See entreat the dead.

That makes no sense. How can you say see Entreat the Dead and then not compare it with anything? How is entreat the dead an example of miracle and flexibility not making a spell more expensive?
Compare Entreat the Dead with Ever After.

Not for everything, but the thing is, when you see certain patterns in the design appearing, again and again, you realize it's not a coincidence.

No one is saying anything about coincidence, I'm just saying you're not recognizing the patterns correctly. You're proposing patters that aren't there, and you're disregarding patterns that are.

These aren't fixed however, MTG RnD is pivoting to 3CMC 3/2 for a while.

That's not at all a true statement. Green got 3/3s for 3 at uncommon when no one else did.
It's not called the vanilla test because that's what creatures have to fulfill, it's called the vanilla test because in limited, for x>2, X mana for an X/X is a good rate, and that's important for valuing card in limited.
You can't just disregard curve though. Ancient Brontodon isn't an auto include just because it beats the vanilla test, because an 8 drop is more expensive than you get to cast in many games.

Even then, for X mana and Y card you generally get some amount of stats. That proportion is generally the same across most creatures.

1. No it's not.
2. It's less so the moment you move into higher rarities.
3. It's less so when you move into higher mana costs.

They could print a ten mana 15/15 at uncommon, it would be very bad compared to Worldspine Wurm, which isn't even a good card, and without trample getting through with it would be very difficult. You can't use the Vanilla test to judge that card.

You might be right, it maybe is just X/X for X mana with one or more colors. Perhaps rarity doesn't figure into it.

Did you purposefully ignore my argument?
I explained several cases where colors don't get X/Xs for X.

It's not. There were entire blocks using this principle, see monocolored hybrid mana.

Thanks for proving my point.
Look at how many decks playing Flame Javelin were planning on paying RRR for it, and look how many were planning on paying 6 for it.
The entire point of mono hybrid is that you would much rather pay one colored mana than two generic.

Well, no. CC comes with deck restrictions.

Yes, it's not strictly better, but it's still better.
Compare Kalonian Tusker, an uncommon, to Centaur Courser, a common.

You want to play it in hybrid color, that's probably turn 4 3/3.

No, it's usually either turn two or turn three. A two color deck even in limited expects to play 1CC spells by turn 3. Turn 4 happens only if you are unlucky enough to only draw your fourth land on turn 4, and draw your lands in the other color first.

Only example of 2/2 for C, was something that enters tapped, so it's unusable for a turn, or a thing that comes with a downside, or a that one snow elemental that uses snow mana.

Yes, 2/2s for C come with a downside, because being a 2/2 for C is much better than being a 2/2 for 2. Did you completely miss what argument I was trying to make?
Diregraf Ghoul is unusable for a turn, as a blocker. It works fine as an attacker.
Isamaru has no downside as a one of.

At ten or more mana, it is expected that the thing you're summoning is supposed to end the game.

That's completely dependent on the format. In modern a 6 drop is supposed to be winning you the game.
In limited 8 drop rares and mythics are plenty game ending, as are several cheaper cards.
Look at stuff like End-Raze Forerunner's, Gigantomancer, Sandwurm Convergence, Stormtide Leviathan, Verdant Force, Vilis, Broker of Blood and Zetalpa, Primal Dawn.

And I explained already.

It's amazing that my point was that your comparison was worthless because it didn't describe the cards in question, yet you decide to double down and reiterate an inaccurate comparison.

Having something cost WUBRG is a horrible deck restrictions.

Which isn't relevant to the discussion because Broodmate Dragon, the card in comparison, is 3BRG, which is a much much smaller deck restriction.

Take an idealized scenario - you draw random land every other turn. Your hand contains 3 lands always.
With 5 generic mana you are guaranteed to play it on turn 5.
With WUBRG, you are almost guaranteed won't play it on turn 5.

Why would anyone try to play a WUBRG card in a set without mana fixing?
Shards of Alara, which had broodmate Dragon, had both 5 trilands at uncommon and 5 Panorama's at common.

Now add mana flood and mana screw and I hope you see why I told you about 2 generic being worth about one colored.

I hope you'll realize how horrible wrong that is. You don't even need to do more than look at cards printed to see that statement is horrifically incorrect.
Most limited decks have only two colors, or have fixing, or are only two colors and still have fixing.

So, sure Gigantosaur can be GGGGG because green A) gets the biggest creatures B) it forces either a mono-green deck or playing it way latter (almost around turn 10).

The entire point is that your linear comparison doesn't work. That's not how magic plays and it's not how magic cards are designed.
Let's instead of saying a 4/4 for GG, let's say a 6/6 for GGG. That also forces it to be played in a mono colored deck or by turn 6, so that should be fine, right?

True, however, for all balancing and related purposes creature creating spells are creature spells.

The power of spell doesn't scale linearly. Creatures are spells. Nothing scales linearly. Your rules of thumbs are just that, rules of thumbs, don't say them like they carry more importance than that.

Yeah, but green generally gets the biggest creatures. And the biggest creatures for CMC.

That's more a design space question that a power level question.
Green getting large non flying creatures for a high mana cost doesn't mean other colors can't get a bit smaller flying creatures for the same mana cost.

In aggregate. At end of turn, a stat is a stat.

Colors are allowed to create big creatures in aggregate. You showed Entreat the Angels yourself.

Yeah. But so can fuse card. So can aftermath. Etc. Thosre are considered split cards.

And you do realize that not only offers you a choice, it also offers you additional value?

Sure, but there is also Olivia's Bloodsworn.

That's not even an argument.
If Order of Midnight is a better card than Olivia's Bloodsworn, and Order of Midnight is at a fine powerlevel for print, then my card being stronger than Olivia's Bloodsworn doesn't automatically make it too strong for print.

It's power creeping by adding an effect

It's not adding an effect. It's changing one upside for another.

OoM needs to pay for its adventure, this doesn't pay for anything.

And therefore Order of Midnight get a much stronger upside than this card does. Order of Midnight gets card advantage, my card gets effects that are on cmc 1 common cantrips.

And effectively costs less by being a hybrid cost.

It's also smaller.

Ok, I was wrong, but giving it a conditional unblockable/can't block wouldn't be too hard.

That's making the card too weak.

Maybe, but they are reprinting white cards, especially Dawn Charm. So I'm not sure where you get that...

They reprinted it in a masters set. Masters sets don't need to follow the color pie for their reprints. Dark Ritual was in a masters set even though ritual effects have been moved to red.

Also your statement that means there are other white cards that regenerate like Death Ward

I've definitely said it before, but I'll say it again, don't mention cards this old as examples of the color pie, it wasn't as well defined back then.

and Horizon Seed.

It could be explained with color bleed, but I think it's easier explained with it regenerates much differently from other regenerate effects, so wizards probably thought it was fine to use in that context.

I'll try to find the exact quote, but R&D disqualified a participant from GDS noting that his hybrid card used what was outside of scope for both sides of hybrid.

Go ahead and try to find it, but I'm sure it's irrelevant to this.

Not to mention I think one question did specifically mentioned that Wolverine can be a white creature with regenerate.

I mean I literally showed you a quote of Maro saying that white doesn't normally get regenerate so you thinking there was a mention of something isn't relevant unless you can actually show me that source.


You didn't reply to the part about maybe making it a 2/2 for UB and removing the can't block clause.

[-D-]

Not it wouldn't. It doesn't feel very mythic without the miracle.

You know what, not gonna argue with this. You might be right about this, I might be underestimating the flexibility on that one. I still think that Entreat is the best baseline for such a card.

No one is saying anything about coincidence, I'm just saying you're not recognizing the patterns correctly.

Ok, you might have a point here.

Second, I feel like it's acceptable for colors to pull outside of their base area of abilities. A white hybrid card, as an example, can regenerate things that white doesn't normally get to regenerate because white as a color has a philosophy of protecting things. The stretch does not pull white outside of its color philosophy."
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...t-3-2008-05-23

What you don't have a point though is the article you linked.

Here are the relevant articles

• https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...like-gold-does
• https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...ou-please-give

Also from what I heard, that article was essentially damage control for an underperforming set, all of those are pie breaks

If you have a hybrid, BOTH part need to be valid AT ALL TIMES. The whole "extending" what colors can do is a PR bull****.

And here is where your card breaks. Twice.

Black doesn't get target creature can't be blocked.
Blue doesn't get target creature can't block.

[Ninjaman]

You know what, not gonna argue with this. You might be right about this, I might be underestimating the flexibility on that one. I still think that Entreat is the best baseline for such a card.

You're absolutely right Entreat is a great baseline, and because entreat can make 3 4/4 flyers for 6WWW, but has miracle and flexibility, my card can therefore create 3 4/4 flyers for 5RRR since it has no miracle or flexibility.

Ok, you might have a point here.

Thank you.

What you don't have a point though is the article you linked.

Here are the relevant articles

• https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...like-gold-does
• https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...ou-please-give

Those don't disagree with what I said.
Maro said those same things in the article I linked, where the link seems to be down. It's called "Eight Trials: Color Pie in the Courtroom, Part 3" in case you want to take a look.

Also from what I heard, that article was essentially damage control for an underperforming set, all of those are pie breaks

1. Saying "from what I heard" isn't a very convincing argument.
2. Maro didn't write the article, Devin Low did. He argued against Maro in it. Devin was making damage control, Maro was calling out the color bleed of the set.

If you have a hybrid, BOTH part need to be valid AT ALL TIMES. The whole "extending" what colors can do is a PR bull****.

No it's not, and it doesn't become any more so just because you repeat it.
The point is that hybrid cards shouldn't be gold card, that makes color bleed. But they point is that they can squeeze it a little as long as they do something that is still quite within that color's color's pie.

And here is where your card breaks. Twice.

Except it doesn't, it follows the quote I posted.

Black doesn't get target creature can't be blocked.
Blue doesn't get target creature can't block.

The black part is probably the sketchiest, so I'll deal with the blue part first.
Blue don't get the words "Target creature can't block", because it gets to tap creatures instead, which is a more powerful ability that also keeps creatures from blocking. A blue/black or blue/red hybrid card can therefore keep creatures from blocking.
Black don't have the words "Target creature can't be blocked", but I'll argue for why it's a small enough bleed that it's perfectly allowed on a hybrid card.
1. Black gets creatures that can't be blocked, and it's getting more of them, perhaps signaling that the ability is getting pushed more into black.
2. Black gets similar effects. They give menace, they gave intimidate and fear, they even gave shadow which is about as close as you get to unblockable. Black grants unblockable more than blue does. The fact that it got these is likely a big reason why it didn't give hard unblockable, but not a reason for why it couldn't give hard unblockable.
3. Blue is the color most associated with unblockable. It has flying and it grants flying, but outside of that it doesn't have evasion, (well it did get skulk). Black has flying though it rarely gives it, and it has menace, along with the things it replaced. Black doesn't give unblockable because there are other effects it can give, but blue can't give those, so on a hybrid card it has to give unblockable.
4. Hard unblockable has existed on the fringes in black for a long time, but lately it has gotten more attention. Abilities show up on creatures before they show up on effects that grant them. This means effects that grant hard unblockable could be printed in black soon.
5. A black card giving unblockable on a blue/black hybrid because it likes making things hard to block, is the same as white getting regenerate on white/green or white/black hybrid because it likes protecting things.
6. It makes the creature a Tormented Soul.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

If I made it "Target creature gains shadow." Then that would be 95% the same in block, and 99% the same outside the block, and undeniably within black/blue hybrid. So why isn't it black blue hybrid the way it is now?

Actually the more I think about it the more I like the idea of just making it give shadow.

You once again ignored my point about maybe making it a 2/2 for UB and removing the can't block clause.

[-D-]

Those don't disagree with what I said.

Yes they do. They make a case that Augur Adept is a hybrid card. It's not. It's a dual-color (i.e. gold) card.

Maro said those same things in the article I linked, where the link seems to be down. It's called "Eight Trials: Color Pie in the Courtroom, Part 3" in case you want to take a look.

Yes. But that was 2008. As of 2014, that's not what Design considers valid. Get with the times.

1. Saying "from what I heard" isn't a very convincing argument.

Ok. Then read the stuff I quoted. Hybrid needs to be viable on both sides.

2. Maro didn't write the article, Devin Low did. He argued against Maro in it. Devin was making damage control, Maro was calling out the color bleed of the set.

Oh, no a single nitpick has undone my whole argument. Except no, that doesn't work. He was still a large contributor.

As for the lore behind it, it makes sense. Remember GDS, the mental gymnastics in question is so they can have people that can debate effectively against their own belief.

No it's not, and it doesn't become any more so just because you repeat it.

I'm not repeating. I'm quoting.

Hybrid is supposed to be effects that either color could do. Traditional gold cards are effects that the colors can only do together.

Blue doesn't get the words "Target creature can't block", because it gets to tap creatures instead

This is flawed logic on so many levels. But here is a question. Does blue get destroy target creature because they had Polymorph? Does Red get destroy target permanent because of Chaos Warp? Does blue get shuffle target permanent into the owner's library because of Committ//Memory?

If not, you're wrong.

Black don't have the words "Target creature can't be blocked", but I'll argue for why it's a small enough bleed that it's perfectly allowed on a hybrid card.

Then I'll argue that you can make it red, you argued that conditional red "can't be blocked" is not the same as "can't be blocked" in general.

Black gets creatures that can't be blocked, and it's getting more of them, perhaps signaling that the ability is getting pushed more into black.

Same as red. Most of those "can't be blocked" come with a downside or a limitation.

Black gets similar effects.

Non-argument. Similar is not the same. Flying is similar to "Can't be blocked". Also, Trample is similar. So should we give white (flying) and green (trample) can't be blocked?

If the same vein if you conflate e.g. tap and can't block, you're making two colors more similar. Because you're color creeping into what was another color's territory.

It makes the creature a Tormented Soul.

While flavorful, making creature a tormented Soul is still UB or UR.

Look at https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...017-2017-06-05 under can't block and can't be blocked.

[Ninjaman]

Yes they do. They make a case that Augur Adept is a hybrid card. It's not. It's a dual-color (i.e. gold) card.

Maro acknowledges that in the article I took the quote from. Try to understand what I'm saying before you write a reply.

Yes. But that was 2008. As of 2014, that's not what Design considers valid. Get with the times.

Do you have a source for this, or are you just making another assertion?
Ashiok, Dream Render is the only blue card that gets to exile a graveyard.
Mono green wouldn't get Biomantic Mastery.
Mono black wouldn't get Coerced Confession.
Mono blue wouldn't get Covetous Urge.
Dovin, Hand of Control has been mentioned before.
Dryad Militant is the only "mono" green card that exiles stuff from a graveyard as a replacement effect, every similar effect lets the card hit the graveyard.
Mono red wouldn't get Fireborn Knight with a toughness pump.
Judge's Familiar wouldn't get printed in mono white, Frontline Medic is the only similar card, and that is way narrower, and probably a break.
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner wouldn't be mono blue, blue card draw doesn't care about the size of your creatures.
I couldn't find a card other than Nahiri, Storm of Stone which deals damage to a tapped creature.
Resolute Rider is the only black card that lets you just pay mana to give it indestructible but doesn't tap it or limit itself to attack.
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is the only red card that can copy artifacts.

Ok. Then read the stuff I quoted. Hybrid needs to be viable on both sides.

Mostly yes. The quote I posted shows the wiggle room.

Oh, no a single nitpick has undone my whole argument. Except no, that doesn't work. He was still a large contributor.

How is that a nitpick? The entire point is that Maro disagreed with the way hybrid was handled in Shadowmoor, yet he still made the quote I posted, so you can't equate the two.

As for the lore behind it, it makes sense. Remember GDS, the mental gymnastics in question is so they can have people that can debate effectively against their own belief.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Hybrid is supposed to be effects that either color could do. Traditional gold cards are effects that the colors can only do together.

And that's mostly true, but he already explained what the wiggle room is.
The point is that a red/black card gets to do things an only red card can do, and an only black card can do, but it gets to do it in a different way than red would do it by itself for instance.

This is flawed logic on so many levels. But here is a question. Does blue get destroy target creature because they had Polymorph?

That's not at all an accurate comparison.
It's ironic that you're claiming flawed logic and then immediately follow it up with that "argument".
1. Polymorph like effects now exile, though it gets Pongify effects.
2. Murder is a stronger effect than Pongify, so that would be a color break. "Target creature can't block this turn" is weaker than "Tap target creature", so it doesn't have the same problem.

Does Red get destroy target permanent because of Chaos Warp?

Chaos Warp is an admitted color break.

Does blue get shuffle target permanent into the owner's library because of Committ//Memory?

Probably. It would need to be very expensive, but Commit to memory can be cast effectively as one card in mono blue, so unless it was created with the idea that the Twister effect was a downside then yes it would. I can totally understand why they wouldn't want blue to have that though, but that doesn't keep it from being blue, just like mass land destruction is still white even if they don't print any.

Then I'll argue that you can make it red, you argued that conditional red "can't be blocked" is not the same as "can't be blocked" in general.

It's a much bigger bleed in red. Red's preferred method of making something unblockable is tunneler "target creature with power 2 or less can't be blocked." Tin Street Dodger has a more powerful unblockable, but it doesn't give it to other creatures. If they printed a red card that gave the Tin Street Dodger "unblockable" to a creature, then I would agree it could be blue/red without being considered a bleed.

Same as red. Most of those "can't be blocked" come with a downside or a limitation.

Red doesn't get creatures that are hard unblockable, black has multiple.

Non-argument. Similar is not the same.

No it's not, but for purposes of hybrid cards it can count if they're similar enough.

Flying is similar to "Can't be blocked".

Not that much. There are a lot more flying creatures than there are creatures with shadow.

Also, Trample is similar.

Not at all.

If the same vein if you conflate e.g. tap and can't block, you're making two colors more similar. Because you're color creeping into what was another color's territory.

Which is why that is only done with hybrid cards.
White didn't get regenerate even though it fit, because black and green already had it, yet it got regenerate on hybrid cards because it fit with what the color was already doing.

While flavorful, making creature a tormented Soul is still UB or UR.

Or U/B hybrid, I'm arguing for.

Look at https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...017-2017-06-05 under can't block and can't be blocked.

That's irrelevant. It also wouldn't put regenerate in white, even though white gets regenerate on hybrid creatures.

You completely ignored my argument about shadow.
What would you think of this card?

Shadow Skulker - 1(U/B)
Creature - Spirit - U
Shadow.
When Shadow Skulker enters the battlefield, target creature gains shadow until end of turn. (It can only block or be blocked by creatures with shadow.)


You also once again completely ignored my point about making it a 2/2 for UB and removing the "can't block."

[Witty Username]

I don't think Entreat is undercosted. Your example is essentially a 12/12 flyer for 8 mana. Find me a card that has that stats?

Army of the Damned is essentially a 26/26 for 8 mana, is flying worth 14 power toughness?

Dreamstutter - 1(U/B)
Creature - Faerie Wizard - U
Flying
Dreamstutter can’t block.
When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block or be blocked this turn.
2/1

So, this is the color pie argument thing. black gets can't block, and blue gets can't block creatures without flying so I don't think that is an egregious color pie break if it is one.
the target creature can't block does look odd, I think that I would make it
"When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield
choose one
-tap target creature
-target creature cannot be blocked this turn"
the color pie issue may give way to a power level discussion, but I don't think the power increase is excessive, at least in a vacuum. I may make this a 1/1 simply cause I dislike this kind of card that is a creature with a spell on it for basically free, but it is not like wizards doesn't do it.

edit: While I mull it over this doesn't feel much like a black card at all, maybe the can't block gets that across but this feel pretty close to a mono-blue card even without my changes.

[-D-]

Maro acknowledges that in the article I took the quote from. Try to understand what I'm saying before you write a reply.

That doesn't make any sense. Maro from your article dated 2008 acknowledges that Maro from a blog post dated 2014 is wrong? How? What? Why?

Unless you are arguing for macro scale reverse causaulity, I don't see a world, where this makes any sense.

Do you have a source for this, or are you just making another assertion?

Other, than what I said, other than what I cited, and this image no?

Mono green wouldn't get Biomantic Mastery.

That's an old card.

Ashiok, Dream Render
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
Dovin, Hand of Control
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner

I look forward to future blog posts, where Maro explains how Ashiok and most of WAR was a mistake.
For what i'ts worth they still have color breaks in their cards, because they aren't really good at their job.

Mono black wouldn't get Coerced Confession.

Black get mill and card draw. Blue gets mill and card draw, not sure why it wouldn't get Coerced Confession?

Dryad Militant is the only "mono" green card that exiles stuff from a graveyard as a replacement effect, every similar effect lets the card hit the graveyard.

Green has a lot of unconditional graveyard removal. It's part of it's pie, so having a conditional graveyard removal is fine.

If you have a card that destroys a creature like Murder, it's fine to print a conditional creature removal like Fatal Push.

Mono red wouldn't get Fireborn Knight with a toughness pump.

Literally any red pump instant/sorcery dropped its googles simultaneously e.g. https://scryfall.com/card/eld/112/barge-in If you can get it on a card, you can get it on a creature, more or less.

Judge's Familiar wouldn't get printed in mono white

White can cast counterspell, but only rarely. See color pie.

Nahiri, Storm of Stone which deals damage to a tapped creature.

Summary Judgement, Rowan Kenith would like a word with you. Admittedly it's more white, but that's a bend. Red can deal damage to target creature. It can also deal damage to a creature with restriction.

Resolute Rider is the only black card that lets you just pay mana to give it indestructible but doesn't tap it or limit itself to attack.
is the only red card that can copy artifacts

.
But there are other cards that work as instants and give indestructible for no penalty. It's a bend honestly. Indestructible is well in black domains.

How is that a nitpick? The entire point is that Maro disagreed with the way hybrid was handled in Shadowmoor, yet he still made the quote I posted, so you can't equate the two.

.
Who's head of MTG card design Maro or that other guy? Who is more releveant when making the call whether something is a bend or break?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

.
GDS always has a stupid mind **** question - E.g. latest GDS had a variety of question argue for something you don't believe. One such question was #28 on last GDS.

Flying, vigilance is a Black Green creature - yeah, right.

And that's mostly true, but he already explained what the wiggle room is.

And he backtracked on it. The wiggle room he used in the article you linked circa 2008 was bull****. See his admission in a blog post in 2014.

That's not at all an accurate comparison.
It's ironic that you're claiming flawed logic and then immediately follow it up with that "argument".
1. Polymorph like effects now exile, though it gets Pongify effects.
2. Murder is a stronger effect than Pongify, so that would be a color break. "Target creature can't block this turn" is weaker than "Tap target creature", so it doesn't have the same problem.

I find it Ironic, that you used Pongify when no one sane uses Pongify to design blue cards. The standard way of blue dealing with creature (other than Perma tap/Bounce/Counter) is to transform them to 1/1 with no abilities.

But, ok, let's say Pongify is a valid blue spell. Why doesn't a part of an effect become a spell in itself? Because there are other restrictions.

Chaos Warp is an admitted color break.

After Chaos Warp was printed, it wasn't followed by a thousand similar red effects.

Probably. It would need to be very expensive, but Commit to memory can be cast effectively as one card in mono blue.

That's incorrect. Blue never gets creature removal, even if part of it, or its combined effect result in a similar manner (e.g. bounce and counter). Blue had creature removal in old cards and Commit//Memory is not a precendent for it to get creature removal. If it was, we'd get it since Amonkhet.

It's a much bigger bleed in red.

Maybe, but as it stands, it's break in two colors.

Red doesn't get creatures that are hard unblockable, black has multiple.

Black doesn't get hard unblockable, it only comes with a downside, at least nothing since 97.

Not that much. There are a lot more flying creatures than there are creatures with shadow.

Right. And since white had shadow and flying, white gets unblockable.

Yeah, that makes no sense.

Not to mention since all colors had Landwalk, so you could argue that red and green should get unblockable creatures, etc. It's perfectly fair!

That's irrelevant. It also wouldn't put regenerate in white, even though white gets regenerate on hybrid creatures.

Or just those cards are breaks, and they never dealt with them properly.

Shadow Skulker - 1(U/B)
Creature - Spirit - U
Shadow.
When Shadow Skulker enters the battlefield, target creature gains shadow until end of turn. (It can only block or be blocked by creatures with shadow.)

That would be appropriate if Shadow was viable. What it doesn't say here is target creature can't block or gains shadow. The can't block is still an issue.

You also once again completely ignored my point about making it a 2/2 for UB and removing the "can't block."

I read top to bottom, if you want to make sure I'll respond to something stick it to the top. And I already implied it's ok. UB fufills both sides of that clause, and 2/2 for UB is fair. Bear is bear after all.

It took me two and a half hours to write all this stuff down, so the likelihood of missing some blurb at the end of your page is very high.

You could make it 1{U/B} if you had "When ~ ETB, target creature can't be blocked and can't block until end of turn." Then you're creature is a Tormented Soul. The way you worded it, it's a choose one effect almost.

[Ninjaman]

So, this is the color pie argument thing. black gets can't block, and blue gets can't block creatures without flying so I don't think that is an egregious color pie break if it is one.

The reason the color pie discussion exists is because on a hybrid card each color needs to be able to do what the card does, because it can be cast in mono color.

the target creature can't block does look odd, I think that I would make it
"When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield
choose one
-tap target creature
-target creature cannot be blocked this turn"

That's way less neat to look at. Also that's just a mono blue card.

The color pie issue may give way to a power level discussion, but I don't think the power increase is excessive, at least in a vacuum. I may make this a 1/1 simply cause I dislike this kind of card that is a creature with a spell on it for basically free, but it is not like wizards doesn't do it.

As a 1/1 this card would be outrageously horrible. Like limited unplayable level horrible. Each effect is a 1 mana cantrip at common, an uncommon that costs 1 more and trades the card draw for a pretty irrelevant 1/1 flyer is abysmally bad.

edit: While I mull it over this doesn't feel much like a black card at all, maybe the can't block gets that across but this feel pretty close to a mono-blue card even without my changes.

I wrote a lot about it in the previous comments, but basically black keeps creatures from blocking and it makes creatures hard to block.

I'll end by showing you these two variants:

Shadow Skulker - 1(U/B)
Creature - Spirit - U
Shadow.
When Shadow Skulker enters the battlefield, target creature gains shadow until end of turn. (It can only block or be blocked by creatures with shadow.)

Dreamstutter - UB
Creature - Faerie Wizard - U
Flying
When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block or be blocked this turn.
2/2

[-D-]

T
Dreamstutter - UB
Creature - Faerie Wizard - U
Flying
When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block or be blocked this turn.
2/2

Wait, was your intention for Dreamstutter to grant one of can't block or can't be blocked or both?

If both, you can keep it 1{U/B} just make sure you use less confusing wording - i.e. When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block and can't be blocked this turn. E.g. Tormented Soul wording.

[Ninjaman]

Wait, was your intention for Dreamstutter to grant one of can't block or can't be blocked or both?

If both, you can keep it 1{U/B} just make sure you use less confusing wording - i.e. When Dreamstutter enters the battlefield, target creature can’t block and can't be blocked this turn. E.g. Tormented Soul wording.

Both. Yes it should be Tormented Soul Wording. Good catch.
Giving only one would make little sense, as only one matters at a time anyway.

[Ninjaman]

That doesn't make any sense. Maro from your article dated 2008 acknowledges that Maro from a blog post dated 2014 is wrong? How? What? Why?

That's not what I said at all.
You said:

Yes they do. They make a case that Augur Adept is a hybrid card. It's not. It's a dual-color (i.e. gold) card.

Look at the article I quoted. In it Maro mentions that Augery Adept should be a gold card.

Other, than what I said, other than what I cited, and this image no?

I know you think that discredits what I said somehow, but it doesn't.
You can find multiple similar quotes within the article I quoted. Maro would have said it back then too. The two statements don't disagree.
It's mostly true that hybrid cards have to fall within the color pie of both cards. The caveat to that is that you get to push that a little for a hybrid card, just like you get to push the color pie a little for set mechanics.
Unless you can find a quote of Maro outright stating that mentality doesn't apply anymore, it still does. Saying the card has to fit within both colors is a generalization.

I look forward to future blog posts, where Maro explains how Ashiok and most of WAR was a mistake.
For what i'ts worth they still have color breaks in their cards, because they aren't really good at their job.

That's not an argument.
It's pretty easy. There are two possibilities. Either WotC, the people who are making magic the gathering and have made it through decades have no idea what they're doing. Or you don't have as good a grasp at the design aspect as you think you do.
Ashiok's exile and Dovin's Tax might be breaks, but Kiora's draw and Saheeli's work by the design rules of the quote that you continue to assert isn't true.

Black get mill and card draw. Blue gets mill and card draw, not sure why it wouldn't get Coerced Confession?

Black pays life or sacrifices something to draw cards, it doesn't just get flat out card draw.

Green has a lot of unconditional graveyard removal. It's part of it's pie, so having a conditional graveyard removal is fine.

If you have a card that destroys a creature like Murder, it's fine to print a conditional creature removal like Fatal Push.

You're not getting it. My point was that there is no other green card that has a replacement effect, that's something white and black cards get. There are green cards that can remove cards from the graveyard, but dryad militant is the only card that can keep cards from ever hitting the graveyard in the first place.

I wasn't fully correct in that though, as Unnatural Aggression does it, but only in the same way red spells get to exile the thing they kill, and Ravenous Slime does it, but it only does it for creatures, so the point still stands. Also Ravenous Slime is a much more recent card.

Literally any red pump instant/sorcery dropped its googles simultaneously e.g. https://scryfall.com/card/eld/112/barge-in If you can get it on a card, you can get it on a creature, more or less.

That's not true at all. Red gets fire-breathing, it doesn't get toughness pumps as activated abilities. Every color gets combat tricks, that doesn't mean every color gets shade abilities. Find me the other red creatures with shade abilities, (just mana to activate, pump power and toughness, use multiple times).

If your statement was true then blue would get fire-breathing because of Aether Tunnel. It doesn't.

White can cast counterspell, but only rarely. See color pie.

It has:
Dawn Charm, (Counters a spell that targets you).
Frontline Medic, (Counters X spells. Probably is a break).
Lapse of Certainty, (Memory Lapse. Would be cool to see more of this in white).
Mana Tithe, (Color-shifted).
Rebuff the Wicked, (Counters a spell that targets your stuff).

The rest are very old and they're all color hate or Artifact/Enchantment hate anyways.

None of those cards set a precedent for Judge's Familiar.

Summary Judgement, Rowan Kenith would like a word with you. Admittedly it's more white, but that's a bend. Red can deal damage to target creature. It can also deal damage to a creature with restriction.

Huh, I must have missed Rowan Kenrith when I did my search, that will do it.
You're absolutely right it can to it with a restriction, that's what I've been trying to say. If a color can do something then it can also do a worse version of that thing. Because blue can tap creatures it should also be able to make creatures unable to block, as that is worse.

But there are other cards that work as instants and give indestructible for no penalty. It's a bend honestly. Indestructible is well in black domains.

1. You cannot claim that there are other cards and then not give an example.
2. Combat tricks don't matter. You're allowed to do stuff with tricks that you're not allowed to do with activated abilities.
3. Find me another black creature that just has the text "[Mana]: CARDNAME gets indestructible until end of turn."

Who's head of MTG card design Maro or that other guy? Who is more releveant when making the call whether something is a bend or break?

Maro.
I have no idea what argument you're trying to make here.
Maro agreed back then that Augury Adept was an example of hybrid cards being handled wrong.

GDS always has a stupid mind **** question - E.g. latest GDS had a variety of question argue for something you don't believe. One such question was #28 on last GDS.


Flying, vigilance is a Black Green creature - yeah, right.

I hated that question just as much as the next guy, but you can spare me your conspiracy theories.

And he backtracked on it. The wiggle room he used in the article you linked circa 2008 was bull****. See his admission in a blog post in 2014.

Don't make a claim like this and then not quote him allegedly backtracking.

I find it Ironic, that you used Pongify when no one sane uses Pongify to design blue cards. The standard way of blue dealing with creature (other than Perma tap/Bounce/Counter) is to transform them to 1/1 with no abilities.

Rapid Hybridization does exactly the same.
Blessed Reincarnation, Curse of the Swine and Reality Shift all do a similar thing but with exile.
I agree that enchantments is a safer way to give blue this ability, but that doesn't mean they can't get it with exile or destroy.

But, ok, let's say Pongify is a valid blue spell. Why doesn't a part of an effect become a spell in itself? Because there are other restrictions.

Because it's more powerful. The token on Pongify is a downside, you don't just get to remove downsides.

After Chaos Warp was printed, it wasn't followed by a thousand similar red effects.

Yes, because it was an admitted color break. Why would they admit something was a color break and then print a similar card?

That's incorrect. Blue never gets creature removal,

What are you talking about? There have been plenty of examples of blue creature removal already.

Blue had creature removal in old cards and Commit//Memory

In what world is Commit//Memory an old card? It's from 2017.

is not a precendent for it to get creature removal. If it was, we'd get it since Amonkhet.

1. The fact they don't print it doesn't mean it isn't within the colors pie. Black has tertiary creature control but hasn't received an effect since Scars block. Mass land destruction is still white even though it is never printed anymore.
You do realize Amonkhet was only 3 years ago, right?

Maybe, but as it stands, it's break in two colors.

I've argued for why it isn't. If you want to present a counter argument, go ahead. Don't just make an assertion.

Black doesn't get hard unblockable, it only comes with a downside, at least nothing since 97.

Downsides are fine, it already uses the Tormented Wanderer wording, even if that "downside" ends up being completely irrelevant in that context. Activation requirements are fine too, as long as the creature gets to genuinely be unblockable.
A downside doesn't keep it from being hard unblockable, a restriction would. Tormented Wanderer has hard unblockable, it being unable to block doesn't make it any more blockable.

Right. And since white had shadow and flying, white gets unblockable.

Black gets shadow, flying, menace, got intimidate and fear, and has creatures that have unblockable.
Your comparison doesn't hold at all.

Not to mention since all colors had Landwalk, so you could argue that red and green should get unblockable creatures, etc. It's perfectly fair!

No colors get landwalk. Are you really this out of touch with what abilities get used?

Or just those cards are breaks, and they never dealt with them properly.

Or Maro explained exactly why they fit within white in the quote you like to pretend doesn't exist.

That would be appropriate if Shadow was viable. What it doesn't say here is target creature can't block or gains shadow. The can't block is still an issue.

Read shadow again. It does the same. Shadow isn't like flying.

You could make it 1{U/B} if you had "When ~ ETB, target creature can't be blocked and can't block until end of turn." Then you're creature is a Tormented Soul. The way you worded it, it's a choose one effect almost.

That's the exact same effect!
Whether the creature you make unblockable can't block this turn doesn't matter, because you're making it unblockable on your turn. The creature you make unable to block won't get to swing with unblockable.
It was meant to be worded like Tormented Soul, but even it wasn't that wouldn't make a difference, it would play out the same.

In a previous comment you literally wrote:

While flavorful, making creature a tormented Soul is still UB or UR.

[-D-]

Look at the article I quoted. In it Maro mentions that Augery Adept should be a gold card.

Yeah, but the whole article is defense of why Augery Adept should be hybrid.

Shadowmoor Development Team: We were convinced. We printed Augury Adept in Shadowmoor.

Stern Judge: The rest is up to history, and up to you.

Spoiler alert - they were wrong. Afterward they hybrids way more subdued with WAR being the outlier, and as all statistics says, you can ignore the outlier.

Maro would have said it back then too. The two statements don't disagree.
It's mostly true that hybrid cards have to fall within the color pie of both cards. The caveat to that is that you get to push that a little for a hybrid card, just like you get to push the color pie a little for set mechanics.
Unless you can find a quote of Maro outright stating that mentality doesn't apply anymore, it still does. Saying the card has to fit within both colors is a generalization.

Maro isn't allowed to change his mind?
It's hard to argue what R&D has in their heads so I won't try, but the guiding principle should be:

Hybrid cards need to be viable as all combinations of hybrid's colors.
Each combination needs to be part of its respective color pie at the time of printing.
Cards are judged at time of reviewing, not at a time they were printed.

It's pretty easy. There are two possibilities. Either WotC, the people who are making magic the gathering and have made it through decades have no idea what they're doing.

It's still a plausible explanation. They change people over time, some of them... Are not very good at their job. And from what I've heard, the MtG isn't doing so great this last few quarters.

<< HUGE BEND AND BREAK DISCUSSION>>

Got a useful definition of what constitutes bend and break. "Bend is a break I don't want to admit".

These all definitions seems whimsical and uncertain to stand to deeper scrutiny. So, in lieu of that, you are right. All of those are breaks. There are just some they don't want to admit for PR reasons. I'm still gonna note it as break.

1. You cannot claim that there are other cards and then not give an example.

All of the black gods. But Ok, those are Gods.

https://scryfall.com/card/thb/113/ra...rred-berserker
https://scryfall.com/card/frf/84/soulflayer
https://scryfall.com/card/hou/56/accursed-horde
Kamigawa - https://scryfall.com/card/chk/126/my...f-nights-reach
Commander - https://scryfall.com/card/c19/17/gift-of-doom

3. Find me another black creature that just has the text "[Mana]: CARDNAME gets indestructible until end of turn."

No such card exists, so you might be right. It's a break. It's not a huge break however. To me, if you have it on a card, you can have it on a creature. Why we don't is another thing.

I hated that question just as much as the next guy, but you can spare me your conspiracy theories.

It's not a conspiracy theory if you know how any company operates.
- "Joseph slept on his job, and now we have a bunch of <<problems>>!"
+ "They are not problems, but opportunities! Release the PR squad!
- "You fired our PR squad. For downsizing."
+ "Oh, right. Just hire/train some of our employees to be PRs"

Don't make a claim like this and then not quote him allegedly backtracking.

Ok, fine, but design since then mostly respected those rules and didn't break them like Shadowmoor, with few notable exceptions in WAR.

Rapid Hybridization does exactly the same... Blessed Reincarnation, Reality Shift

Yeah, but it's with a downside. You don't get a put creature or a nonland permanent into opponent's deck then shuffle it - which with the recent release of TBD is now worse than Murder, since graveyard is a resource now.

Curse of the Swine

This was obviously going for flavor and nothing else.

Yes, because it was an admitted color break. Why would they admit something was a color break and then print a similar card?

Yeah, but there was a gap between printing it and admitting it was color break. During that time, they could have thought it was ok to have it..

What are you talking about? There have been plenty of examples of blue creature removal already.

Not like I'm talking about. Take a permanent shuffle it into opponent's library, that constitutes the removal akin to Commit//Memory. That's worse than putting in the graveyard now.

In what world is Commit//Memory an old card? It's from 2017.

I said "old cards _AND_ Commit//Memory" like "Jack _AND_ Jill". Doesn't mean I equate Jack and Jill.

Black has tertiary creature control but hasn't received an effect since Scars block

Scars is a very strange way to spell Theros Beyond Death.

Mass land destruction is still white even though it is never printed anymore.

Phew. It's a good thing they unprinted Dominaria otherwise, that had Fall of Thran there.

Yeah, they dislike mass land removal - period. Red doesn't get it as often either.

You do realize Amonkhet was only 3 years ago, right?

Yup. Plenty of time to reprint, "put a creature/permanent in the library and shuffle it", if they wanted to.

Black gets shadow, flying, menace, got Intimidate and fear, and has creatures that have unblockable.
Your comparison doesn't hold at all.

So? White had protection, shadow, flying, Plainswalk, Swampwalk, Landwalk, and can't be blocked (with similar downsides as black). The comparison holds.

No colors get landwalk. Are you really this out of touch with what abilities get used?

I meant Landwalk as a collective name for different <<basic land>>walk types.

However, on further inspection, you are absolutely wrong on landwalk white and blue get landwalk -
https://scryfall.com/card/rav/8/concerted-effort (white = all landwalks)
https://scryfall.com/card/cns/109/travelers-cloak (blue = landwalk of chosen type)

Or Maro explained exactly why they fit within white in the quote you like to pretend doesn't exist.

Which quote?

]I've argued for why it isn't. If you want to present a counter-argument, go ahead. Don't just make an assertion.

Whether the creature you make unblockable can't block this turn doesn't matter, because you're making it unblockable on your turn.

My argument was based that you could make a creature unblockable -OR- can't be blocked, like a choose one effect. The wording tripped me up.

As it stands, the effect is fine in hybrid, however, it's application is not much different from "can't be blocked" this turn. It can only be used offensively. And one scenario where it could really matter is that the opponent has a multi blocker and exactly that many creatures.

In a previous comment you literally wrote:

Yeah, I thought it said something different. I was wrong.

[Ninjaman]

Yeah, but the whole article is defense of why Augery Adept should be hybrid.

But Maro very noticeably disagrees with this.

Spoiler alert - they were wrong. Afterward they hybrids way more subdued with WAR being the outlier, and as all statistics says, you can ignore the outlier.

Yes Augury Adept was wrong, I agree. Regeneration on white/black or white/green hybrid cards wasn't.
You can't honestly claim not to see the difference between the two.
I have referred to the quote many times, yet you continue to pretend it doesn't exist.

There have been hybrid cards that are color breaks, after shadowmoor too, but there have also been cards that have pushed the colorpie in exactly the way described in the quote.

Maro isn't allowed to change his mind?

He is. But unless he has explicitly said he has changed his mind, don't assume he has.

It's hard to argue what R&D has in their heads so I won't try, but the guiding principle should be:
Hybrid cards need to be viable as all combinations of hybrid's colors.
Each combination needs to be part of its respective color pie at the time of printing.
Cards are judged at time of reviewing, not at a time they were printed.

And that's mostly true, but just like a set mechanic allows a color to get stuff that are slightly out of pie so does hybrid mana.

Got a useful definition of what constitutes bend and break. "Bend is a break I don't want to admit".

Yeah that's wrong. If your knowledge on card design and the color pie is this vapid I don't know why you even bother trying to give critique.
You called things bends in your previous post, now you claim all bends are breaks. That doesn't add up.

These all definitions seems whimsical and uncertain to stand to deeper scrutiny.

Making a blanket statement like this instead of replying to specifics make your reply very useless.

It's a clever way of trying not to defend your claim that red gets toughness buffing as an activated ability.

So, in lieu of that, you are right. All of those are breaks.

I am sick and tired of you poorly playing devil's advocate. Pick a stance and stick to it.

There are just some they don't want to admit for PR reasons. I'm still gonna note it as break.

You can cut the conspiracy theories.

All of the black gods. But Ok, those are Gods.

Yes, gods don't count.
1. They have a requirement in order to be functional creatures in the first place.
2. They're a set mechanic.
3. If the counted that would mean indestructible was red and blue as well.

https://scryfall.com/card/thb/113/ra...rred-berserker

That's not at instant speed, which is what you claimed:

But there are other cards that work as instants and give indestructible for no penalty. It's a bend honestly. Indestructible is well in black domains.

It's also a one off effect only on your turn.

https://scryfall.com/card/frf/84/soulflayer

This is a different mechanic entirely. It gets keywords from your graveyard, meaning in order to get non-black keywords you need to play non-black cards. This is why Odric also gets to give non-white keywords.
Soul Flayer can also get Double Strike, Trample and vigilance. Do you claim those are black mechanics too?

https://scryfall.com/card/hou/56/accursed-horde

This was my original point you replied to:

Resolute Rider is the only black card that lets you just pay mana to give it indestructible but doesn't tap it or limit itself to attack.

.Kamigawa - https://scryfall.com/card/chk/126/my...f-nights-reach

Part of a cycle similar to the gods.

Commander - https://scryfall.com/card/c19/17/gift-of-doom

This is by far the card that gets closest, but not quite.
Most importantly I asked for a card that gave itself indestructible, this gives indestructible do something else, that's not quite the same.
Perhaps just as importantly, this card is effectively colorless, as playing it as a morph costs only generic, and you can flip it up by sacrificing a creature of any color, so you could play it in a mono red deck if you wanted to.
Also in order to give indestructible at instant speed you need to sacrifice a creature, which helps making it feel more black, even though it effectively isn't.

No such card exists, so you might be right. It's a break. It's not a huge break however.

I think the word you're looking for is bleed.
It's funny how just above you were all like "All bleed is breaks, WotC just won't admit it!" but now you're like "it's not a very big break".

To me, if you have it on a card, you can have it on a creature. Why we don't is another thing.

An aura and a creature are very different things. An aura that makes a creature indestructible is very different from a creature that just is indestructible, especially with this keyword in particular, as it gives an additional way to deal with something that is card to deal with.

It's not a conspiracy theory if you know how any company operates.
- "Joseph slept on his job, and now we have a bunch of <<problems>>!"
+ "They are not problems, but opportunities! Release the PR squad!
- "You fired our PR squad. For downsizing."
+ "Oh, right. Just hire/train some of our employees to be PRs"

Repeating a conspiracy theory doesn't make it any less a conspiracy theory.
You design cards by designing cards by the same rules R&D design cards. You don't get to say [Whatever] doesn't count because [Secret agenda].

Ok, fine, but design since then mostly respected those rules and didn't break them like Shadowmoor, with few notable exceptions in WAR.

I'm not talking about breaks, I'm talking about the slight bleed allowed by the quote I posted that you don't seem to want to acknowledge.

Yeah, but it's with a downside. You don't get a put creature or a nonland permanent into opponent's deck then shuffle it - which with the recent release of TBD is now worse than Murder, since graveyard is a resource now.

Once again you seem to have lost track of what we were discussing. This is the comment I replied to:

I find it Ironic, that you used Pongify when no one sane uses Pongify to design blue cards. The standard way of blue dealing with creature (other than Perma tap/Bounce/Counter) is to transform them to 1/1 with no abilities.

The part you quoted was not about Commit//Memory. It was about your claim that Pongify shouldn't be blue.

This was obviously going for flavor and nothing else.

Why would the flavor be blue?
It's blue because it's a Pongify effect.

Yeah, but there was a gap between printing it and admitting it was color break. During that time, they could have thought it was ok to have it..

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Not like I'm talking about. Take a permanent shuffle it into opponent's library, that constitutes the removal akin to Commit//Memory. That's worse than putting in the graveyard now.

Yes it is, but either blue gets that because of Commit//Memory, or Commit//Memory was a color pie break. It very well could be, but then that's the issue.
It might very well be one of the cases where you take two blue mechanics but when you stick them together they're not blue anymore.

I said "old cards _AND_ Commit//Memory" like "Jack _AND_ Jill". Doesn't mean I equate Jack and Jill.

Sorry, I read that wrong.

Scars is a very strange way to spell Theros Beyond Death.

That's not a Mind Control effect, you need to kill the creature. It's a reanimation spell. Minion's Return is to Mind Control what Pongify is to Murder.

Phew. It's a good thing they unprinted Dominaria otherwise, that had Fall of Thran there.

Well it kind of undoes itself, but yes that is the best example of mass land destruction in a long time.

Yeah, they dislike mass land removal - period. Red doesn't get it as often either.

Yes, that's what I said.

Yup. Plenty of time to reprint, "put a creature/permanent in the library and shuffle it", if they wanted to.

That's not an argument.
From Enslave to New Blood there was 6 years. I couldn't find anything in between those two.

So? White had protection, shadow, flying, Plainswalk, Swampwalk, Landwalk, and can't be blocked (with similar downsides as black). The comparison holds.

No it doesn't. "Hard to block" is a much larger part of black than it is white. You conveniently ignored that white doesn't get unblockable creatures, black does.
Also while white have shadow it doesn't give shadow, black does.

I meant Landwalk as a collective name for different <<basic land>>walk types.

However, on further inspection, you are absolutely wrong on landwalk white and blue get landwalk -
https://scryfall.com/card/rav/8/concerted-effort (white = all landwalks)
https://scryfall.com/card/cns/109/travelers-cloak (blue = landwalk of chosen type)

Colors don't get landwalk, as in landwalk is a discontinued mechanic. It's not used anymore.

Which quote?

This one:

Second, I feel like it's acceptable for colors to pull outside of their base area of abilities. A white hybrid card, as an example, can regenerate things that white doesn't normally get to regenerate because white as a color has a philosophy of protecting things. The stretch does not pull white outside of its color philosophy.

From the article Eight Trials: Color Pie in the Courtroom, Part 3.

My argument was based that you could make a creature unblockable -OR- can't be blocked, like a choose one effect. The wording tripped me up.

It doesn't really matter though. It's like if a pump spell gave trample and reach, only one of them would be relevant at a time.

As it stands, the effect is fine in hybrid, however, it's application is not much different from "can't be blocked" this turn.

Its application is the same, except it can also be used as "Target creature can't block this turn."

It can only be used offensively.

"Target creature can't block this turn" and "Target creature can't be blocked this turn" can both only be used offensively.

And one scenario where it could really matter is that the opponent has a multi blocker and exactly that many creatures.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Yeah, I thought it said something different. I was wrong.

You thought Tormented Wanderer said something different?

[Ninjaman]

White card advantage has been all the fuss, so I wanted to share this.

Bring Back - 2WW
Enchantment - R
During each of your turns, you may play up to one permanent card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard.

Bring Back from the Beyond - 2W
Enchantment - R
When Bring Back from the Beyond enters the battlefield, exile the top five cards of your library.
At the beginning of your upkeep you may pay 2, if you do, return target permanent card exiled with Bring Back from the Beyond to its owner’s hand.

[-D-]

He is. But unless he has explicitly said he has changed his mind, don't assume he has.

Dude, do you honestly never heard of PR. He won't ever publicly admit he was wrong. To do so would reflect badly on the company. What he will do is silently stop printing articles in support of it.

You can cut the conspiracy theories.


Repeating a conspiracy theory doesn't make it any less a conspiracy theory.
You design cards by designing cards by the same rules R&D design cards. You don't get to say [Whatever] doesn't count because [Secret agenda].

Conspiracy theories Gotta ask - do you live at the bottom of Marianna's Trench? Do you not know how corps work? Do you not know what PR is? Conspiracy theories?!

As for the thing in question - during GDS #1 Maro specifically mentioned it's important for contestants to argue for things they don't believe. Namely - Mana Screw.

2. Explain three positive ways "mana screw" affects Magic.
...
The reason for this question was that I wanted to see people defend something that they probably didn’t believe in.
...

Tell me, why would Maro/Wizards insist on this question? Why are you looking for contestants ability to argue for things they don't believe in?

Yeah that's wrong. If your knowledge on card design and the color pie is this vapid I don't know why you even bother trying to give critique.
You called things bends in your previous post, now you claim all bends are breaks. That doesn't add up.

I am sick and tired of you poorly playing devil's advocate. Pick a stance and stick to it.

Sure. I was wrong. All are breaks of larger or lesser severity. However, what is larger or lesser severity is both highly subjective and time dependent on what is the current status of the color pie.

Making a blanket statement like this instead of replying to specifics make your reply very useless.

Ok, wise one, enlighten me what constitues bleed, bend and break in a way that's both verifiable and non-subjective. As for defending red ability. Not gonna defend it. It's a break.

That's not at instant speed, which is what you claimed:

I wanted to be as close of a match as I could to that activated ability. It still proves you get that ability in black.

Soul Flayer can also get Double Strike, Trample and vigilance. Do you claim those are black mechanics too?

I'd argue for Trample. Vigilance was black waaaaaay long ago, but double strike was not so far.

I think the word you're looking for is bleed.

Bleed is just PR speak for break.

It's funny how just above you were all like "All bleed is breaks, WotC just won't admit it!" but now you're like "it's not a very big break".

Yup. Breaks are like red flags, if you have very excellent reasons for doing those, do it. Otherwise don't. However I can admit, it's not IMO a big change. If you get something on a card or a very similar ability

Once again you seem to have lost track of what we were discussing. This is the comment I replied to:

The part you quoted was not about Commit//Memory. It was about your claim that Pongify shouldn't be blue.

You also forgot what we were discussing. My issue with Pongify was that it just because Pongify says "Destroy target creature", blue doesn't get Murder.

Why would the flavor be blue?

Because it's referencing a Mage transforming a bunch of Sailors into Pigs (a blue effect).
Because it's related to Odyssey's journey.
Over the sea.
They only way it was more blue, if the pigs were blue.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

R&D breaks color pie now and again, usually the breaks are small, and if there is enough excitement the "breaks" become the rules, etc. Chaos Warp was a break, but it didn't catch on, so they don't reprint it.

That's not a Mind Control effect, you need to kill the creature. It's a reanimation spell. Minion's Return is to Mind Control what Pongify is to Murder.

It totally is - mechanically. You just permanently steal a creature that's about to die. Black gets to steal stuff.
Ok, then you have
https://scryfall.com/card/eld/100/piper-of-the-swarm
https://scryfall.com/card/m20/290/sorin-vampire-lord

I honestly can't wait for a way to define that these aren't really Mind Control. I know it's coming.

No it doesn't. "Hard to block" is a much larger part of black than it is white. You conveniently ignored that white doesn't get unblockable creatures, black does.

Scuse me?
https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%2...order=released (ignore the one flyer that needs blue)

White gets conditionally unblockable creature, same as black.

Also while white have shadow it doesn't give shadow, black does.

Yeah, I was honestly anticipating this part. This is a non argument. White has Shadow. As stupid as that sounds.

Colors don't get landwalk, as in landwalk is a discontinued mechanic. It's not used anymore.

As opposed to Fear and Intimidate and? Fear and intimidate are at 10 Storm Scale. Landwalk has better chances of getting returned than those two withered corpses.

http://mtgstormscale.com/

From the article Eight Trials: Color Pie in the Courtroom, Part 3.

Great quote, except, that regenerate breaks white's philosophy of being proactive rather than reactive.

It doesn't really matter though. It's like if a pump spell gave trample and reach, only one of them would be relevant at a time.

Mechanically yes, but from color pie, the break would be greater. Also you use trample offensivelly and reach defensivelly, your card is only ever useful offensivelly.

"Target creature can't block this turn" and "Target creature can't be blocked this turn" can both only be used offensively.

Yes. That's what I said.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Only target creature can't be blocked is actually useful. Only way you can offesively use target creature can't block is when you have more creatures, in which case why aren't you attacking with them? 99% of the time can't block clause can be ignored.

I guess if your opponent has a card that can block more than one creature and you have more than one creature, then disabling it is beneficial.

"You thought Tormented Wanderer said something different?

I didn't look up Tormented Soul, which you were mentioning.

Bring Back - 2WW
Enchantment - R
During each of your turns, you may play up to one permanent card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard.

That's green. Only way this may be white, is if it said, creature or a enchantment (with or without mana cost restriction).

Bring Back from the Beyond - 2W
Enchantment - R
When Bring Back from the Beyond enters the battlefield, exile the top five cards of your library.
At the beginning of your upkeep you may pay 2, if you do, return target permanent card exiled with Bring Back from the Beyond to its owner’s hand.

This is just blue. I thought about making it so opponent chooses, but that's blue as well.

Honestly if I'd have to make "white draw". I'd instead just increase the draw quality.

Council of Sages - 2WW
Enchantment - R
You may skip your draw step. If you do, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or enchantmet card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

[Ninjaman]

Dude, do you honestly never heard of PR. He won't ever publicly admit he was wrong. To do so would reflect badly on the company. What he will do is silently stop printing articles in support of it.

He has admitted to being wrong before several times. Stop with these conspiracy theories, you're not helping your case.
You can't just claim that you are right and then when asked to back it up say "they would never admit it." That's not a valid argument.

Conspiracy theories Gotta ask - do you live at the bottom of Marianna's Trench? Do you not know how corps work? Do you not know what PR is? Conspiracy theories?!

I want to have a constructive discussion about magic card design, you can take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

As for the thing in question - during GDS #1 Maro specifically mentioned it's important for contestants to argue for things they don't believe. Namely - Mana Screw.

Oh but that's 14 years ago, how do you know he still thinks that? /s
If he was wrong then he would never have admitted to being wrong. /s
Also I read that part and it doesn't make the point you're trying to make.

Also coming up with three positives about mana screw is pretty easy. Mana is so fundamental to the game that if you can't you probably shouldn't be designing cards.

Tell me, why would Maro/Wizards insist on this question? Why are you looking for contestants ability to argue for things they don't believe in?

He wants people to argue for something you might not believe in because you're on a team that designs a set, you're not in charge of everything, so you need to understand what the positives are for even the parts of the design you don't like but your peers do.

Sure. I was wrong. All are breaks of larger or lesser severity. However, what is larger or lesser severity is both highly subjective and time dependent on what is the current status of the color pie.

No, you are wrong. Break and bleed are meaningfully distinct.
Read what Maro says about the core, mantle and crust of the color pie.

Ok, wise one, enlighten me what constitues bleed, bend and break in a way that's both verifiable and non-subjective.

This isn't even a reply to what it's trying to reply to.
We were arguing about the color design of several different cards, and you then made a blanket statement instead of continuing to discuss the cards individually. Bleeds and breaks being ultimately subjective doesn't factor in to this.

As for defending red ability. Not gonna defend it. It's a break.

Then why did you defend it in the first place?

I wanted to be as close of a match as I could to that activated ability. It still proves you get that ability in black.

No it doesn't, at all. Being able to grant indestructible to your creature at any time and being able to give it not only not as a surprise, but also only on offense, is two extremely different things.

I'd argue for Trample.

You're right, black gets trample on big demons, my mistake.

Vigilance was black waaaaaay long ago,

I've explained multiple times why you can't use very old cards as arguments for the color pie.
Ghost Hounds which was printed in one set is literally the only mono black creature with vigilance.

but double strike was not so far.

Crypt Champion is the only black card with double strike, and it's actually rakdos, because it has a clause that make you sacrifice it if you didn't use R to cast it, so you only get the etb.

What I find very telling is that you didn't reply to the important part of my reply on Soul Flayer, here it is:

This is a different mechanic entirely. It gets keywords from your graveyard, meaning in order to get non-black keywords you need to play non-black cards. This is why Odric also gets to give non-white keywords.

Bleed is just PR speak for break.

No it's not. You're not getting anything by just repeatedly asserting that Wizards are wrong.

Yup. Breaks are like red flags, if you have very excellent reasons for doing those, do it.

Again the word you're looking for is bleed.
You keep trying to make different distinctions of breaks, somehow not realizing that the distinction you should be making is between bleeds and breaks.

Otherwise don't. However I can admit, it's not IMO a big change. If you get something on a card or a very similar ability

That's funny, this definitely wasn't your stance when you misread Dreamstutter.

You also forgot what we were discussing. My issue with Pongify was that it just because Pongify says "Destroy target creature", blue doesn't get Murder.

I never claimed it did. I have replied to your Pongify point already, repeating it won't help.

Because it's referencing a Mage transforming a bunch of Sailors

Where? I don't see any sailors on the art or in the flavor text.

into Pigs (a blue effect).

Yes, because Pongify is a blue effect.

Because it's related to Odyssey's journey.

I'm sure there is a part in the Odyssey where some people are turned into pigs, but this card is just copying that part, it's not copying the rest of the story around it.

Over the sea.

Doesn't make something blue.

Why did you deliberately leave out the part where I explained it was a Pongify effect?

R&D breaks color pie now and again, usually the breaks are small, and if there is enough excitement the "breaks" become the rules, etc. Chaos Warp was a break, but it didn't catch on, so they don't reprint it.

I don't see how whether Chaos Warp was quickly identified as a break, or whether it took a long time but it was just a rare effect they didn't want to print often, has any relevance.

It totally is - mechanically. You just permanently steal a creature that's about to die. Black gets to steal stuff.

No it isn't. This reanimates a creature when it dies, that is a very black thing. They printed that effect in blue in the past but moved away from it, because it's not at all the same thing.

Ok, then you have
https://scryfall.com/card/eld/100/piper-of-the-swarm
https://scryfall.com/card/m20/290/sorin-vampire-lord

I honestly can't wait for a way to define that these aren't really Mind Control. I know it's coming.

I'm not going to, they are mind controls, I was looking for more direct Enslave effects and missed those.
But the point I made later in my last comment still stands, there was a span between 2011 where Enslave was Reprinted, Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren were printed, up until 2017 where Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren was reprinted, which was then followed up by new effects in 2018 and 2019. During that time, 2011 to 2017 no black Mind Control effects were printed, yet the ability remained black.
Just because an effect isn't printed doesn't mean it's not in those colors anymore.

Scuse me?
https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%2...order=released (ignore the one flyer that needs blue)

None of those creatures are unblockable. One of those cards limits its unblockable to one creature type, one limits it to artifact creatures, and one limits it to red creatures. All of those are heavily powered down versions of protection from [same thing].
Amrou Seekers were from Time Spiral block, it also effectively just has intimidate.
So that leaves you with the mechanic "Can't be blocked by creatures with power X or greater", which has only had two copies over 12 years, and which isn't even close to hard unblockable.

White gets conditionally unblockable creature, same as black.

Black gets unconditional unblockable. Look at Tormented Wanderer.
Tormented wanderer has a downside, but it does not have a condition to its unblockable.

Yeah, I was honestly anticipating this part. This is a non argument. White has Shadow. As stupid as that sounds.

White has shadow, it doesn't give shadow.
Didn't you just before argue that black didn't get to give unblockable just because it had unblockable?
Also shadow was a set mechanic, meaning it gets to be put into more colors than it would normally. Just like blue got Unearth.
Shadow was an Esper mechanic, but only blue and black could grant it.

As opposed to Fear and Intimidate and? Fear and intimidate are at 10 Storm Scale. Landwalk has better chances of getting returned than those two withered corpses.

I specifically mentioned that black used to get them:

It gets unblockable creatures and it gets menace along with fear and intimidate in the past.

They give menace, they gave intimidate and fear,

Black gets shadow, flying, menace, got intimidate and fear,

You're also missing the point that black got menace when intimidate was discontinued, while landwalk wasn't replaced by anything.

http://mtgstormscale.com/

In the source for Landwalk being a 9 he also called Fear, Intimidate and Banding 9. He later said those were 10s in questions after that, but it's pretty hard to say he wouldn't say the same if asked about Landwalk.

Great quote, except, that regenerate breaks white's philosophy of being proactive rather than reactive.

That makes no sense.
How is Karametra's Blessing, God's Willing and Sheltering Light not reactive cards?

Mechanically yes, but from color pie, the break would be greater. Also you use trample offensivelly and reach defensivelly, your card is only ever useful offensivelly.

But it can be used in two different ways But yes I agree the irrelevant downside that is actually an upside actually manages to make the card feel more black.

Yes. That's what I said.

This was your quote:

As it stands, the effect is fine in hybrid, however, it's application is not much different from "can't be blocked" this turn. It can only be used offensively. And one scenario where it could really matter is that the opponent has a multi blocker and exactly that many creatures.

Maybe it wasn't what you were trying to say, but you make it sound like the fact that it can only be used offensively is a way it differs from "Can't be blocked this turn", as if that could be used defensively.
I'm sorry if that wasn't what you were trying to say.

Only target creature can't be blocked is actually useful.

You're aware Goblin Shortcutter effects have showed up multiple times and been relevant, right?

Only way you can offesively use target creature can't block is when you have more creatures,

Not necessarily. If you have two 1/1s and a 5/5. and I have two 3/3s, I might want to make your 5/5 unable to block.
I've played both Crippling Blight and Hammerhand in standard.

in which case why aren't you attacking with them?

If I have two 2/2s and you have a big creature, I don't want to trade a creature for dealing 2 damage unless that kills you. Trading no creatures for 4 damage is much better.

99% of the time can't block clause can be ignored.

I have two 2/2s, you have one 3/3. That is just one of the many situations where I want to use the "can't block clause."
Do you want me to come up with more situations where it could be relevant?

I guess if your opponent has a card that can block more than one creature and you have more than one creature, then disabling it is beneficial.

There are way more situations that that.

"Target creature can't be blocked" is good for forcing one creature through, "Target creature can't block" is good for forcing more damage through when you go wide.

That's green. Only way this may be white, is if it said, creature or a enchantment (with or without mana cost restriction).

Without the cmc restriction I'd be inclined to agree, but this is very similar to Sun Titan.
It could definitely feel less green if I made it non-land, but I think it's still white right now, and I wanted it to be good. Returning lands from the graveyard should be something white was better at.

This is just blue. I thought about making it so opponent chooses, but that's blue as well.

It's very definitely not blue. Blue would never limit itself to returning permanent cards.

Honestly if I'd have to make "white draw". I'd instead just increase the draw quality.

It think this is a very bad solution, as all colors need card advantage, not just card selection.

Council of Sages - 2WW
Enchantment - R
You may skip your draw step. If you do, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or enchantmet card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

This seems, kinda bad, it's kinda hard to evaluate. Taigam or Abundance might be the closest comparisons. I feel like it should be able to hit artifacts.
It's pretty awkward that this doesn't help you hit your land drops, but I guess that synergizes with land tax effects.
This card is going to feel so bad when you whiff, and unless your deck is 33%+ creatures and enchantments that is going to happen more than you think. At 33 hits you have about 86% chance of hitting, which might seem good, but it means about every sixth turn you just skip your draw step.
You need 37 hits to get a 90% chance of hitting. Looking at EDHrec that's more than a lot of the mono white decks are running.
You need 45 to hit 95% of the time. If you include artifacts then pretty much every mono white deck on EDHrec fulfills this.
A lot of cards this style come with a chance of whiffing whiffing, but it's a lot worse when it provides card disadvantage. Especially since playing this already left you down a card.
Also even if you hit that might not have been the card you wanted. If you choose to draw normally then his card is a waste.
If you want to use this then all the artifacts, lands, planeswalkers, instants and sorceries in your deck are never going to get drawn.

[-D-]

He has admitted to being wrong before several times.

Citation needed. Also was this like "we admit we were wrong 10 years ago." ?

Oh but that's 14 years ago, how do you know he still thinks that? /s

A valid argument. Color pie changes over time, what Maro said was ok once won't be valid if tomorrow he decides that e.g. white needs draws.

If he was wrong then he would never have admitted to being wrong. /s

Well to be more precise, he won't admit, a they made a bunch of errors, because they were asleep at the wheel. They'll invent fancy names - bleed, bend, etc. This is the "That's not a bug, that's a feature" mentality applied to MtG.

Also coming up with three positives about mana screw is pretty easy. Mana is so fundamental to the game that if you can't you probably shouldn't be designing cards.

I agree mana is fundamental to the game as is. But not to game as it could be. Other games survived without it.

No, you are wrong. Break and bleed are meaningfully distinct.
Read what Maro says about the core, mantle and crust of the color pie.

Yeah, I read it and the argument were along the lines. Bend is something that is philosophy of white. Break is something that does undermine the core weakness of color.

Bleeds and breaks being ultimately subjective doesn't factor in to this.

Yes, it does. If it's subjective then me saying it is a bleed is based on opinion, not facts.

Also waiting on your non-subjective and easily validated definition of break/bend/bleed.

Then why did you defend it in the first place?

I had different set of assumptions.

No it doesn't, at all. Being able to grant indestructible to your creature at any time and being able to give it not only not as a surprise, but also only on offense, is two extremely different things.

I somewhat agree on offense, but if you get them giving ability X on a sorc speed and on instant is good enough precedence for X having that ability.

What I find very telling is that you didn't reply to the important part of my reply on Soul Flayer, here it is:

It's a break. However there is a definition, one really helpful person on custommagic Discord - planar tint. Like White having -1/-1 on Elesh Norn.

Where? I don't see any sailors on the art or in the flavor text.

Look closely at pigs. They were wearing helmets. Really not standard headgear for pigs :P

I'm sure there is a part in the Odyssey where some people are turned into pigs, but this card is just copying that part, it's not copying the rest of the story around it.

There is a female mage casting something and a bunch of freshly minted pigs around here. That is enough of a reference.

Yes, because Pongify is a blue effect.

No, transform is blue effect (and sometimes green LOL). It only gets to kill as part of that transform.

Why did you deliberately leave out the part where I explained it was a Pongify effect?

Explained what? Pongify, is a transform effect.

No it isn't. This reanimates a creature when it dies, that is a very black thing. They printed that effect in blue in the past but moved away from it, because it's not at all the same thing.

Yeah, but in 99% cases this will be the same as having an instant "Take control of target creature". Only mechanical difference is this triggers ETB effects.

But the point I made later in my last comment still stands, there was a span between 2011 where Enslave was Reprinted, Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren were printed, up until 2017 where Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren was reprinted, which was then followed up by new effects in 2018 and 2019. During that time, 2011 to 2017 no black Mind Control effects were printed, yet the ability remained black.
Just because an effect isn't printed doesn't mean it's not in those colors anymore.

Ok, sure, I'll wait few more years for Blue "Shuffle target creature into a library". However, then it's undermining blue mechanical weakness - blue being weak to creature based strategies.

None of those creatures are unblockable.

Black gets unconditional unblockable. Look at Tormented Wanderer.

Look at black unblocakble cards - they all come with restriction, cost or a major downside. Black getting target creature gains "Can't be blocked" is a break. AFAIR black doesn't get those.

White has shadow, it doesn't give shadow.
Didn't you just before argue that black didn't get to give unblockable just because it had unblockable?

I argued black didn't give "Can't be blocked" because black has no access to "Can't be blocked" it does have access to "Can't block and can't be blocked".

I specifically mentioned that black used to get them

It was still your argument for black getting unblockable. If fear, intimidate and shadow are "arguments" for getting unblockable, then those arguments are valid for white as well.

How is Karametra's Blessing, God's Willing and Sheltering Light not reactive cards?

Why are you talking about these? I said regenerate specifically... Regenerate only works if you get destroyed. That's reactive.

Combat tricks aren't considered reactive. Or are you trying to prove my point that color philosophy is meaningless?

You're aware Goblin Shortcutter effects have showed up multiple times and been relevant, right?

I've only ever seen it useful in Limited. In constructed you have counters to these effects.

It's very definitely not blue. Blue would never limit itself to returning permanent cards.

It could though. If you get general effect, you can get subset. Also querying on Discord came up as blue effect.

It think this is a very bad solution, as all colors need card advantage, not just card selection.

Card disadvantage is part of white mechanical weakness - at least so far.

This seems, kinda bad, it's kinda hard to evaluate...

My feedback was that it was a fairly priced Board the Weatherlight effect. I could see it going lower 2W (or 1WW), and selecting artifacts vs enchantment (in artifact heavy set) or even selecting some specific land.

It never gives advantage but gives you chance to get a creature or enchantment if you really need it.

If you really need that land clause:

Council of Sages - 2WW
Enchantment - R
You may skip your draw step. If you do, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or Plains card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

[Ninjaman]

Citation needed. Also were this like we admit we were wrong 10 years ago.

At the end of every block he does a storm rating of all the mechanics. A high storm rating means they probably made a mistake.

Well to be more precise, he won't admit, a they made a bunch of errors, because they were asleep at the wheel. They'll invent fancy names. This is the basic process between "That's not a bug, that's a feature" mentality.

He points them out in the storm scale article for every block they do.
Heck the purpose of the storm scale is to say "this was a mistake, let's not do that again", or "this has potential, but not in the way we did it".
On blogatog he routinely points out errors.
The discontinued mechanics: Banding, Landwalk, Intimidate, those were errors.

I agree mana is fundamental to the game as is. But not to game as it could be.

This is just wrong.
If you remove mana then you're not playing Magic: the Gathering anymore. Mana is an intrinsic part of Magic's identity.

Yeah, I read it and the argument were along the lines. Bend is something that is philosophy of white. Break is something that does undermine the core weakness of color.

Something like that yeah.

Yes, it does. If it's subjective then me saying it is a bleed is based on opinion, not facts.

Just because something is partly subjective doesn't mean every position is equally valid.
Food is ultimately subjective, and yet I feel pretty confident in saying literal dog **** tastes bad.

Also waiting on your non-subjective and easily validated definition of break/bend/bleed.

There isn't one, but that doesn't mean there isn't educated judgements.
Just because it's not set in stone doesn't mean anything said on the topic is as good as anything else.

I had different set of assumptions.

Way to say nothing at all.

I somewhat agree on offense, but if you get them giving ability X on a sorc speed and on instant is good enough precedence for X having that ability.

Not really. There is a very big difference between getting something as a one off effect and a repeated effect.
If nothing else then I think they'll want to keep "[mana]:CARDNAME gets indestructible until end of turn." out of black because it's more within green and white, and we don't need 3 out of the 5 colors to have lots of access to similar indestructible.

It's a break.

No it's not, I already explained why it isn't.
Soul Flayer getting nonblack keywords by exiling nonblack creatures from your graveyard, is no different than getting a nonblack creature with a black reanimation spell.

However it's what one really helpful Discord of custommagic called - planar tint. Like White having -1/-1 on Elesh Norn.

Elesh Norn is a very blatant break, planar tint doesn't excuse it.

Look closely at pigs. They were wearing helmets. Really not standard wear for pigs :P

War helmets, they're clearly soldiers, not sailors.

There is a female mage casting something and a bunch of freshly minted pigs around here.

No, transform is blue effect (and sometimes green LOL). It only gets to kill as part of that transform.

Blue gets to transform creatures both by destroying, exiling, or just with enchantments. Though they have moved them more from destruction into exiling because it feels more like transforming if the original disappears for good.

Explained what? Pongify, is a transform effect.

As is Curse of Swine.
Maro said it here

Yeah, but in 99% cases this will be the same as having an instant "Take control of target creature". Only mechanical difference is this triggers ETB effects.

Have you not read the card?
With this you need to kill the creature.
A Mind Control removes the opponent's creature and gives you a creature. This gives you the creature, but only if you can do the removal part yourself.
This is reanimation, you only get the creature if it dies.

Ok, sure, I'll wait few more years for Blue "Shuffle target creature into a library". However, then it's undermining blue mechanical weakness - blue being weak to creature based strategies.

I feel like this subdiscussion has strayed too far out to have any relevance.
Maybe Commit//Memory was a break, maybe it wasn't, but I don't see what relevance that has to anything.

Look at black unblocakble cards - they all come with restriction, cost or a major downside. Black getting target creature gains "Can't be blocked" is a break. AFAIR black doesn't get those.

A downside is fine, it's still hard unblockable. As is it if it has a condition to activate.

I argued black didn't give "Can't be blocked" because black has no access to "Can't be blocked" it does have access to "Can't block and can't be blocked".

But when you put that on a one shot effect that's strictly better.

It was still your argument for black getting unblockable. If fear, intimidate and shadow are "arguments" for getting unblockable, then those arguments are valid for white as well.

The argument wasn't that black got fear and intimidate in the past.
The argument was that black got menace now, and fear and intimidate in the past. Point being that black has always had a "my creatures are hard to block ability", and when they removed one they gave it a new one.
In comparison white hasn't gotten a replacement for landwalk.

Why are you talking about these? I said regenerate specifically... Regenerate only works if you get destroyed. That's reactive.

You can regenerate whenever you want, you can regenerate during your declare attackers step if you wanted to, and that works just fine.
Both regenerate and one turn instant speed indestructible are used as a reaction to something the opponent does.
When are you using sheltering light proactively?
How is Resolute Rider any more proactive than Ancient Silverback?

Also how is "Destroy target attacking or blocking creature" that white also gets proactive?

Combat tricks aren't considered reactive.

Yes, the specifically are. You react to what your opponent is doing. Defensive combat tricks are even more reactive, especially when they are used to blank removal spell.

Or are you trying to prove my point that color philosophy is meaningless?

No, I'm trying to prove that the argument you were trying to make didn't work.

I've only ever seen it useful in Limited.

Even if it was only useful in limited, being good in limited is a fine card for a card to be. Only being good in limited doesn't make it useless.

In constructed you have counters to these effects.

You don't have counters for these effects, it's just that combat matters less in constructed.
I literally gave you two with this effect that I've personally played in standard.

Go to MTGTOP8 and search competitive and up. The following effects I found have showings, some just a few, some a lot:
Ahn-Crop Crasher
Arena Athlete
Blinding Flare
Cartouche of Zeal
Crippling Blight
Earthshaker Khenra
Fervent Cathar (Duel Commander only)
Firefist Striker
Goblin Heelcutter
Goblin Shortcutter (Yes, even attached to a Goblin Piker this effect has seen slight success)
Hammerhand
Mugging
Nightbird's Clutches
Retreat to Valakut
Smoldering Spires
Temur Charm

I'm sure I've missed some, but this should be enough to get my point across.

It could though. If you get general effect, you can get subset. Also querying on Discord came up as blue effect.

That might mostly seem true, but it's not necessarily. Black gets tutors, but that doesn't mean you would give black a Sylvan Scrying. Regrowth effects are green, but that doesn't mean you could give green Call to Mind.
Blue is the color that cares the most about instant and sorceries, and the color that cares the least about creatures. A card that only finds permanents is therefore not going to feel very blue.

Why didn't you reply to my defense of Bring Back?

Card disadvantage is part of white mechanical weakness - at least so far.

That's kind of the point of designing white card advantage though. Wizards want more white card advantage, they're just trying to find a way to do it that feels unique to white. Saying lack of card advantage is a weakness of white isn't relevant when we're specifically looking for ways to give white card advantage.
Also white gets card advantage, it's just bad at drawing cards without heavy build around.

Go back some year, you would have said the same thing for red. Then they made impulsive draw.

My feedback was that it was a fairly priced Board the Weatherlight effect. I could see it going lower 2W (or 1WW), and selecting artifacts vs enchantment (in artifact heavy deck) or even selecting some specific land.

Did you miss the part where I did the math. This misses too often to be good in more than a very niche amount of decks.

It never gives advantage but gives you chance to get a creature or enchantment if you really need it.

No, the kind of deck that wants to play this definitely wants to use it as much as possible, not "when it really needs it".

If you really need that land clause

Council of Sages - 2WW
Enchantment - R
You may skip your draw step. If you do, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or Plains card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

I like this better. There are a lot more decks where this will more easily hit a larger percentage of the time, and it's a lot easier to build your deck so it will hit almost always.

For the original design I think I would probably do something like this:
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a Creature or Enchantment card from among them and put it into your hand. If you do, skip your draw step. Put the rest on the bottom of your library.

Not quite sure on the wording. It could also be something like:
Skip your draw step
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a Creature or Enchantment card from among them and put it into your hand. If you don't, draw a card. Put the rest on the bottom of your library.

Or:
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a Creature or Enchantment card from among them and put it on top of your library. Put the rest on the bottom of your library.

It does mostly the same thing, but in the event of a miss you just get to draw normally.


Kithkin Cartographer - 1W
Creature - Kithkin Scout - U
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of your library. If it’s a Plains, you may reveal it and put it into your hand.
1/2

[-D-]

At the end of every block he does a storm rating of all the mechanics. A high storm rating means they probably made a mistake.

The discontinued mechanics: Banding, Landwalk, Intimidate, those were errors.

Yeah, but that's the thing. We're not calling it design mistakes, but Storm scale.

Sure he points that old mechanics were wrong, but not so much recent ones. And his blog isn't really something most Magic player knows about.

If you remove mana then you're not playing Magic: the Gathering anymore. Mana is an intrinsic part of Magic's identity.

Sure, now, but there is no reason you have to have MTG's mana system. I agree it's too late to change now. But in past it probably wasn't.

Just because something is partly subjective doesn't mean every position is equally valid.
Food is ultimately subjective, and yet I feel pretty confident in saying literal dog **** tastes bad.

True. However, one truly "valid" point of view here isn't either me or you, so arguing about it is pointless.

Also update your definition - Dog **** isn't food. If you eat something only to vomit it, that's not considered food.

Elesh Norn is a very blatant break, planar tint doesn't excuse it.

Speaking of animal ****. Elesh Norn is a bend, according to Maro [1][2]

Hope you see why I don't want to discuss this with you. What you consider "common sense", isn't what RnD considers "common sense"

Way to say nothing at all.

How is that saying nothing. I worked on assumptions A) explained thouse assumptions, then moved to assumptions B) and explained them.

Soul Flayer getting nonblack keywords by exiling nonblack creatures from your graveyard, is no different than getting a nonblack creature with a black reanimation spell.

To me it looks like a break, that is justified by Soul Flayer "inheriting" evergreen abilities of whatever it exiled.

War helmets, they're clearly soldiers, not sailors.

You're being picky for no reason. They don't all have helmets.

Have you not read the card?
With this you need to kill the creature.
A Mind Control removes the opponent's creature and gives you a creature. This gives you the creature, but only if you can do the removal part yourself.
This is reanimation, you only get the creature if it dies.

Yes. But the effect is similar, modulo having to kill the creature. You don't have to even expend a card to do it. If a creature dies in combat, you take control of it.

A downside is fine, it's still hard unblockable. As is it if it has a condition to activate.

If it's hard unblockable with a downside, then by extending that same logic since black gets indestructible with tapped, it should get 2: CARDNAME is indestructible until end of turn.

The argument wasn't that black got fear and intimidate in the past.
The argument was that black got menace now, and fear and intimidate in the past. Point being that black has always had a "my creatures are hard to block ability", and when they removed one they gave it a new one.
In comparison white hasn't gotten a replacement for landwalk.

Sure, but white gets a protection. By far it has most it. White gets hard to block as well. Mostly as fliers, protection creatures, and creatures with conditional unblockable.

You can regenerate whenever you want, you can regenerate during your declare attackers step

The way regenerate function is considered reactive. For it to "work" your creature needs to be destroyed, then the effect is replaced with tap and removing damage and destroy effects.

Also how is "Destroy target attacking or blocking creature" that white also gets proactive?

It can be used proactively as well, so it's not strictly reactive like "regenerate".

Even if it was only useful in limited, being good in limited is a fine card for a card to be. Only being good in limited doesn't make it useless.

Sure, and it might be occasionally useful in constructed, but the effect isn't that impactful. Target creature can't block, won't be too different than giving one or more things "can't block".

Blue is the color that cares the most about instant and sorceries, and the color that cares the least about creatures. A card that only finds permanents is therefore not going to feel very blue.

Blue gets to exile and return from exile any type of card, it having access to subtype isn't an issue IMO, even if not a subtype it particularily cares about.

Why didn't you reply to my defense of Bring Back?

I explained, editing your replies and answering to them may result in some parts being lost.

That's a different effect. White can put things from graveyard to the battlefield. Also, it's usually a one-off effect or one that requires some risk, like attacking. Playing from the graveyard is black or green (for lands).

To make things worse, this effect is VERY VERY VERY rare. And isn't something you can use for general "card advantage".

That's kind of the point of designing white card advantage though. Wizards want more white card advantage, they're just trying to find a way to do it that feels unique to white.

Ok. But then look at white, card don't just take other color's effect and make it "card advantage". If you're going to give it card advantage without looking what others do, why not just give white Ancestral Recall, and call it a day?

Did you miss the part where I did the math. This misses too often to be good in more than a very niche amount of decks.

My idea wasn't to give it "quantitative card advantage" but "qualitative card advantage". The Council of Sages would be a build-around. Not something you can plop anywhere.

Your ideas also don't work outside of rare rarity, impulse draws are more broadly available.

No, the kind of deck that wants to play this definitely wants to use it as much as possible, not "when it really needs it".

You could give it a multi-reveal effect

War Preparations - 2WW
Sorcery -
Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal up to one creature, enchantment and artifact card from among them and put those cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order

It's not draw, it's not in another color and it can draw multiple cards, without being too powerful.

Kithkin Cartographer - 1W
Creature - Kithkin Scout - U
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of your library. If it’s a Plains, you may reveal it and put it into your hand.
1/2

I think this is fair. White can care about Plains and drawing it, doesn't give too much card advantage.