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2021-04-11, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Looks like Bel'akor is fiiiinally going on preorder next weekend.
Thank God, because I've been wanting to buy him since I saw the model.
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2021-04-11, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Boston, MA
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
And they charged from within 8 inches? What a bunch of sillies. Situations like that is what Gork and Mork made the Evil Sunz for; bonuses to charging and just ridiculous amounts of high-speed models. Oh, and multi-charging, depending on the targets.
...I miss charging an entire gunline with one unit a Biker Nobz all spread out, and having the myriad other Speedfreeks come rushing up into the gaps uncontested...
Speaking of something completely unrelated, I've been trying to get myself into the mood to work on some of my many unfinished minis, and I've tentatively settled on working on my Marines. I've got a pretty small force of Vanilla Marines, and I could use a push to help me choose which direction I'd like to take them. In 8th edition, I was using them as some kind of non-canon Salamanders Successor, using the few Legion of the Damned models I have as sergeants or hero models. However, I was reminded that /tg/ once made up the Emperor's Nightmare chapter, which I also think is neat. As you might assume, I have an affinity for owls, which is part of their chapter symbol. Also, purple. Based on their lore, while they are described as successors of the Raven Guard, using rules for the Blood Angels is probably more useful. Librarian Dreads, Death Company as the dissociative 'Sleepless Marines', an affinity for Apothecaries, it seems to fit.
But if I knew what I really wanted to do, I would just do it. I wouldn't be here looking for...I dunno, affirmation? Something. Maybe I should try to create something from whole cloth, and figure out how to use any mechanics afterwards? I tried looking at the army guides for inspiration, but nothing's struck yet.
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2021-04-11, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Indiana
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Inferno cannons are 16" range. The heavy flamer is just gravy. But I had three of them in the list to fill out the Brigade, and first turn just moved them all up. He was conga-lining his Stormboyz back to buff characters in the rear, and I dropped Kasrkin behind where said characters were the closest units. That was all she wrote.
Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2021-04-11 at 10:48 PM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2021-04-11, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
The Drukhari Fliers aren't that good.
The ravager's dark lances and disintegrators were the star of the show, dealing a lot of damage and wounds to his dreadnought.
All in all, not a bad game for the first run with a bunch of new units to me, running with new rules...
You do a bit of damage - maybe even a lot of damage - and then you die, and you have to hope that you did enough damage to actually put a dent in your opponent's plans.
I did like the variety and options available at that point level, but it was definitely a longer game than I preferred
It wasn't that it was good.
It's that it was necessary for the meta to not be the way it is, currently.
Again, when we look towards the design goals of 9th Ed., and we see "Make Melee more important", what we see, is nerfing the **** out of Overwatch. It's only one piece of a puzzle. But it all adds up to make something terrible, which is that units that can't Fight back - or withstand the opponent's Charge - are Just Bad, because they damn sure can't Overwatch. And the ultimate puzzle, is that a good, Melee unit, can roll right through an entire enemy unit without ever have taken damage.
Declare Charge.
- Target unit can't Overwatch 'cause it's a Stratagem
Unit Fights and obliterates opposing unit, and it's at relatively full strength, so max attacks and max damage, and best use of Stratagems over the most number of models.
#FunGame.
How to play Marines;
Choose one;
Aggressors, Assault Terminators, or Centurions (either type). The Chapter you would like to play probably will affect which one you choose. Take one max-sized unit, and then fill out the rest of your Elite (or Heavy) slots with min-sized units.
Add; Captain (any), Chief Apothecary, Ancient. Remember that Apothecaries and Ancients are Elite slots, so they may compete with slots with the above. However, remember than a Captain allows a Role-free Veteran squad, and a Veteran squad allows one role-free Apothecary and Ancient in the same Detachment. So actually nothing competes with anything, you're fine.
Optional; Add a Lieutenant. If you're running with Aggressors or Centurions, you might want a Librarian, if you have access to Powers that hand out Invulnerable saves. Which you should do.
Once you've taken as many Elite choices as you have and/or can afford...Fill the rest of your list with whatever works in your meta.
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2021-04-12, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Canada
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
-It happens
-Always fun when that happens
-You can't reroll Shadowfield saves. Ever. No matter what. When I run an Archon that's typically what happens to mine too.
-Incubi are off the wall good. Try them with Drazhar, it's insane.
-I'm actually surprised. These days I figure the Ravanger just isn't efficient enough.
-Very nice.
I'm pretty sure you can do a 2000 point game in 3 Hours. But that does involve some rushing, and more importantly, it involves knowing your rules and army by heart. Can't have a quick game if you need to look stuff up all the time or if you are hemming and hawing about what to do next.
If you want to get really good at that? Try playing with a chess clock. It can be pretty stressful, but it's also fun in its own way. Needing to make decisions quickly and needing to rush can be quite the experience. Definitely not for everyone, but I can see the appeal of it.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Nobody makes decisions quickly, and nobody rushes. Not ever.
What people do do, is figure out what they're going to do during their opponent's turn. By the time it's your turn, all's you have to do, really, is move models.
This is one of the fundamental flaws in the current 40K, that is actually exploited by anyone who knows about said flaw.
You, don't have anything to do with your opponent's turn. All's you have to do, is roll saves, and maybe answer a question or two about Toughness or number of wounds. And of course play an Overwatch Stratagem exactly once, maybe.
The rest of the time, you can just check out. Go talk with your friends at another table (if you trust your opponent not to cheat), go to the shops three doors down and order a coffee and come back in ten minutes. Put your thumb up your butt.
You don't have anything to do with your opponent's turn. It's the biggest complaint about 40K, but it's also it's greatest competitive strength, especially under time crunch.
Now, you could be staring blankly at a wall, you could be chatting up your friends' missus,you could be flicking through your Codex to find a rule you forgotnope, you know all your rules, so scratch that. You could be doing anything. Including not even being at the table.
What you should be doing, is taking your turn in your head, and evaluating what you're gonna do. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't actually do that, whilst still focusing on their opponent. Except most people don't actually realise that you don't need to engage your opponent at all during their turn, they, engage you, and only when they ask you. The rest of the time? If your opponent isn't asking you a direct question about your army, or asking you to roll saves...You may as well not be paying attention - because your attention should be on the board, not your opponent.
The turn-by-turn decisions of the days of Maelstrom are over. This ain't Kill Team with alternating activations and fire dice surprises. You already know all of your Objectives, and you already know how to achieve all of them. And when your opponent's dice roll like fire, you have something like 4 more minutes before it's even your turn. You can see your opponent's turn, as they do it. It's not like you've closed your eyes for 20 minutes, suddenly woken up, and OMG new board state, must make decisions, but first I must figure out what's happening.
You're seeing what's happening. As it happens.
By the time your turn rolls around, whilst the decisions weren't necessarily made quickly (during your opponent's turn), they should, however, have already been made. That's what gives the illusion of choices being made quickly or in a rush, because when that clock hits your turn, the player is already making moves without thinking...Because they've already thought.
That's how you play with chess clocks. The same way, ironically, that chess players, do. If you're making decisions on your turn, you're too slow.
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2021-04-12, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Sure. Really the biggest problem is turn 1. You have the most stuff, and if you went first, you don't get that time to plan. Now admittedly, I haven't played with a time limit since COVID started because there are no tournaments to play with in the first place. So I'm going off of the 8th edition ITC experience. Which admittedly didn't have that much interactions either.
And I did find that I would have to rush. Because I did have to adjust my plans based on what my opponent killed or how they moved. That and it takes a surprisingly large amount of time to just go through your turn. Some of it is efficiency (like counting out the dice you need before hand), but simply moving every model just takes time. Obviously, some armies don't have that problem just do to model count. But playing a horde with a chess clock? It's very doable. But you have to be really efficient.
The biggest thing is not having the time to hem and haw anymore. You never realize just how much time you spend second guessing yourself until you are forced to stop.Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2021-04-12 at 01:36 AM.
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Yes you do. You have your opponent's Deployment phase.
This is why I keep telling people that actually, there's very little player choice in the game these days, because the choices you need to make, are usually so obvious, and made as a reaction to what your opponent's done.
The only time that any real decisions get made, and I mean real decisions where no information is given, you just have to put something on the board...Is during your deployment, when you deploy first.
Once you put your first unit down...Your opponent should already be making decisions, because they know what you've done. Your opponent's deployment phase starts, when you put your first unit down in any position. Your first turn starts, when your opponent deploys their first unit, in any position. When you start thinking of the game like this, you'll find you have plenty of time, all the time.
That and it takes a surprisingly large amount of time to just go through your turn.
If you're spending your turn not doing those things, you're wasting time. Hence, why you're supposed to have already made your decisions. All the thinking you need to do, should be done on your opponent's time, not on yours.
Some of it is efficiency (like counting out the dice you need before hand), but simply moving every model just takes time.
The biggest thing is not having the time to hem and haw anymore.
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2021-04-12, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
This reminds me of the times we ran our 4 vs 4 team battles. Everybody expected the same slow, agonizing, never ending drudgery of editions past. We got everyone playing at the same time, 30 mins per side, no exceptions. It was intense and amazing, and by the third turn people were flying through the rolls and the motions. They even skipped the lunch break due to how invested they were in not missing anything during their opponents turn. 5 rounds of 8000 points per side done in a little over 4 hours, no "full day" nonsense, no incomplete match, no more slow pace for dinos.
Hopefully we'll run another soon once Covid is a thing of the past.
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2021-04-12, 07:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- New Jersey
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
The majority of our game was spent looking up rules and remembering what exactly the stats of the units were. After all, it was my first game with the new codex rules in effect, and it was his second ever game in 9th edition. As far as actual strategy, there was no time wasted thinking about what to do. We both knew what we were going to do, we just needed to know how to do it within the rules. I did spend some time looking up what the stratagems were, and seeing if there was anything I could possibly do at a given moment, but that was it.
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2021-04-12, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
GW announces Sisters of Battle Sacresants as part of the upcoming plastic release.
SoBs with Dark Angels-style halberds and what appears to be a combat shield with a boltpistol built in to the rim. Certainly a very sexy design, though possibly the death knell for Repentia who are already pretty niche in their CC role.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2021-04-12, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Melee unit? Check.
'Heavily Armoured'? Check.
More of the current meta, please. We aren't bored at all.
though possibly the death knell for Repentia who are already pretty niche in their CC role.
Let's invalidate those and encourage you to buy new models, which are the same, but better, and make you feel stupid for owning the models you currently do.
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2021-04-12, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
You seriously underestimate the amount of hemming and hawing people like to do. From checking every angle of a unit to make sure it is hidden to calculating how many shots to put into something, the time wasting in a casual game is immense, and for some people, out of control.
Like you said, there is time in the game to get all your stuff done, but you have to be disciplined to not fall into the hemming and hawing traps and just make a 'snap' decision. Sure you have the opponent's turn to think about it, but they are moving fast too, and constantly interrupting your train of thought with questions and dice rolls.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
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2021-04-12, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
I love the halberd, but I do admit that when I just saw the thumbnail for the link on Facebook and Twitter I thought it was going to be a spear and now I'm disappointed it's not. There aren't nearly enough spears in WH40k. Especially since Rough Riders aren't supported, and Secutarii Hoplite upgrade sets are $50 on TOP of the cost of the Skitarii you need to upgrade.
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2021-04-12, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Steam ID: The Great Squark
3ds Friend Code: 4571-1588-1000
Currently Playing: Warhammer 40000, Hades, Stellaris, Warframe
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2021-04-12, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Canada
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-12, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
A good portion of the new releases do appear aimed at soft replacing the old ministorum stuff. The Dogmata looks to be a Misdionary, and these probably do for Crusaders, as you suggested
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2021-04-12, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
To replace Repentia they'd have to.
I mean, here's what they are up against:
4 Attacks at S6 Hitting on 4+, AP -4 2 Damage, with full rerolls to hit. And perhaps reroll 1s to wound if they took a Repentia Superior. Sure, Repentia die really easily to bolter fire, but it rarely matters. If they get the charge they'll kill most things straight out and they are 144 points for a maxed out squad.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Unless they were Bladeguard-lite, focusing on survival and a gimmicky board control strat / special rule over just offensive power. But T3 with a low inv. and 1 wound is junk at surviving (remember when someone tried to argue for Dire Avengers?) so they would be a waste to take.
Wonder if the maces or the halbers will be the better choice.
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2021-04-12, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
With the caveat that having a Grand Tournament right now is a stupid idea, someone did, so at least there's tournament data. The lists are supposed to be uploaded within the next couple of days. Per the TO on Facebook:
Originally Posted by Dom ErzengelLast edited by Renegade Paladin; 2021-04-12 at 04:36 PM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2021-04-12, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
I've felt stupid for owning Repentia for the 5 years Ive had them, so that ain't new. Then again, they came with the Lot Sale, so I didn't have a choice.
Big IF there, considering they're T3 with a 6++ as their only defence.
I can easily see the Halberd being S5 AP -3 with D2, and with the 5++ they'll most likely have, they'll be better. They're the melee Celestians we always asked for.
Seriously, all they needed was an extra attack and a freaking Storm Shield!
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2021-04-12, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
No, I'm not.
What I'm saying is that if you hem and haw in your turn, you're a bad player, and you wont cope with chess clocks. Good players can cope with chess clocks, and I'm telling you a big way of how.
Even as a casual, you can apply the same method of having your turn in your opponent's turn, and waste a lot less time.
To reiterate; I'm not saying you can't think about the choices you make. I'm saying that by the end of your opponent's turn, you have had 20, 30 or even 40 minutes worth of information. You should have already been making choices.
It's a skill that separate good and bad players. Good players are okay with chess clocks. Bad players are not.
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2021-04-12, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
It's pretty easy to get Repentia in. Rhino are one way, and doing an Advance and charge out of them. The other is saving a 5 and a 4 for Miracle dice and just guaranteeing a charge out of Reinforcements. There's some level of counter play, sure, but not so much that it makes it a struggle to use them.
I agree with that, I suppose. I just word it differently, that it takes skill and getting used to not hemming and hawing.
And Drukhari take 1 and 2. Good to see the new Codex taking wins.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2021-04-12, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2021-04-12, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
At the risk of repeating myself; Good players under chess clocks are thinking about what to do:
They are making calculations in their heads.
They are wondering if it's really a good idea to do 'X'.
They are re-evaluating their board position after their opponent's Shooting phase.
A good player should be thinking about what they're gonna do for almost half the game, more or less.
What they're not doing, is thinking about what they're gonna do during the same time, during the same half, that a bad player would think things over under a chess clock.
A great example:
Your opponent takes a risk, and Advances their unit, rolls hot, and makes it onto an Objective.
It is currently the middle of their Movement phase, near the top of their turn. You should already be making decisions.
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2021-04-13, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Nah, thats middle-of-the-pack players. Good players already know what they'll do, they're just shuffling one of a number of pre-planned sequences from their recipe book.
A good player should be thinking about what they're gonna do for almost half the game, more or less.
A great example:
Your opponent takes a risk, and Advances their unit, rolls hot, and makes it onto an Objective.
It is currently the middle of their Movement phase, near the top of their turn. You should already be making decisions.
You focus on what you can control, that is, what you do. Your stuff shoots at what they shoot, hits at what they hit, and you know all this long before you ever get to the game. Yes, you adjust your gameplan based on the scenario, but its less coming up with something than moving from play 1.a.III to 1.a.IV.
Doing this makes the game a much more relaxed affair. Instead of stressing out due to last minute spur of the moment decisions, you have mind space left to discuss the latest sports match, lore trivia, listen to music or eat / drink as you go. I've always found games get more and more relaxing the more familiar I become with a given faction / list.Last edited by LansXero; 2021-04-13 at 12:07 AM.
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2021-04-13, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Partial agree.
Its all rote repetition once on the table, gives you time to trash talk or just shoot the breeze.
But as I've said many times now, there are still a few instances of player choice still in the game, and there are many cases where, in fact, the dice make fools of us all.
Sometimes, the thing that's supposed to happen, doesn't.
Or the thing that wasn't supposed to happen, does.
You focus on what you can control, that is, what you do. Your stuff shoots at what they shoot, hits at what they hit, and you know all this long before you ever get to the game.
I point this out to new players all the time. You don't need to waste time trying to figure out what your Lascannons are going to shoot at. Because you already decided during list creation that your Lascannons were going to shoot Vehicles (and Heavy Infantry). So what's taking you so long? Just shoot the target you already decided four days ago, that they were going to shoot.
Doing this makes the game a much more relaxed affair. Instead of stressing out due to last minute spur of the moment decisions, you have mind space left to discuss the latest sports match, lore trivia, listen to music or eat / drink as you go. I've always found games get more and more relaxing the more familiar I become with a given faction / list.
I have it on good authority that competitive players aren't having fun.
And actually I think you've nailed it, in a way that I've never considered before. I know my rules. I know my army list. I know my opponent's army list. This frees up my brain to think - and talk - about anything else during the game. The more me and my opponents learn rules, the more fun we have, because we actually aren't concentrating on when or what to shoot or fight with, which lets us have fun in other, non-game ways, whilst still getting a 2000 Point game done in less than 2.5 hours.
I've never thought of it that way before. But now that I recognise it, it's really obvious.