Is anyone actually forbidding CoDzillas in their game?

[Freelance Henchman]

How bad is the CoDzilla phenomenon really in actual games? Just interested.

[Flawless]

Well, in our games druids have to use the shapeshift variant from PhII and there're no clercs, just Favoured Souls. We've had no problems since then.

[Quietus]

I wouldn't have any problems if a cleric DID decide to go CoDzilla in one of my games on a regular basis. The catch, of course, is that the easier the typical fights become as a result of this, the harder to fights they run into later are.

[ArmorArmadillo]

How bad is the CoDzilla phenomenon really in actual games? Just interested.

Divine casters are usually necessary in parties to heal and buff, so CoDzilla isn't prohibited, or even severely nerfed, in the games I see.

A few small balances usually take care of the abuses-
Ban Natural Spell, remove the Heavy Armor proficiency for Clerics, and ban DMM.


The thing is "CoDzilla" as a term is a bit of an exagerration by people on internet forums-places where "theoretical optimization" and munchkining tend to abound.

In most campaigns, clerics are hardly game-breaking...especially when Red Fighter needs Healing Badly!

[OneWinged4ngel]

Is anyone actually forbidding Clerics and Druids in their games? Certainly. I know the Tempest Stormwind has removed the vancian casters from his game pretty much entirely.

Divine casters are usually necessary in parties to heal and buff

That's just plain not true. Healing in combat has never been an essential role in 3.5e. And healing out of combat isn't exactly very expensive or hard to accomplish. Heck, even the clerics heal with the wands to save their spell slots.

[Indon]

My group generally doesn't play CoDzillas.

Clerics and Druids are played frequently, though.

[AKA_Bait]

That's just plain not true. Healing in combat has never been an essential role in 3.5e. And healing out of combat isn't exactly very expensive or hard to accomplish. Heck, even the clerics heal with the wands to save their spell slots.

That entirely depends upon how much access to magical items you give your players and how hard the encounters you throw at them are. In the games I run (although not all the ones I play in) if the cleric/favored soul is not running around healing during combat characters WILL die. Sometimes they do anyway...

[Starbuck_II]

My group generally doesn't play CoDzillas.

Clerics and Druids are played frequently, though.

You do realize CoDzilla is not a build. It is not a way you run them: it is just Cleric or Druid.
The are innately that good. Players might run them bad, but same as a player could run any class bad. The class abilities themselves are the reason CoDzilla occurs.
CoDzilla is Core: always been there.

[Indon]

You do realize CoDzilla is not a build. It is not a way you run them: it is just Cleric or Druid.
The are innately that good. Players might run them bad, but same as a player could run any class bad. The class abilities themselves are the reason CoDzilla occurs.
CoDzilla is Core: always been there.

That's really not the case. My group can and does optimize; we still have no problem with Clerics and Druids being out-of-line of party strength.

[brian c]

Eh... CoDzilla refers to a certain way of playing clerics and druids, so that they do melee better than a fighter but still cast kickass spells. Generally this only starts to be a problem at around 8-10th level and up. That's where I like to start my games, but so far I haven't had anyone trying to play a cleric or druid like that. In theory, I would not allow it though; either use the shapeshift variant, or use cloistered cleric

[Miraqariftsky]

Cuuuuurious... My longest-lived character is an ECL 5 multiclass Cleric with one, soon to be 2 levels in Fighter...

I gather that going "CoDzilla" is a mighty move... how is it done?

[Yuki Akuma]

I gather that going "CoDzilla" is a mighty move... how is it done?

Play a Cleric or Druid.

Seriously.

[Dr. Weasel]

I try to get Cleric players to do this. The people who usually play Clerics in my group fall into the heal-bot routine, get bored and do something stupid to kill their characters. Repeatedly. Then they build Warmages and giggle at their totally-broken-9d6-Fireball-with-a-reflex-save.

So, yeah. My group doesn't optimize at all. My Swashbuckler/Bard/Swiftblade's been by far the most powerful character at everything (skills/fighting/casting/healing) with no real effort (Base Intelligence is 8 higher than Charisma and I took the Spring Attack feat line before even considering the Swiftblade class)

[PlatinumJester]

It isn't banned so much as nerfed. Druids can't touch metal voluntarily and can't wear armour or use any weapon except for the club, sling or quarterstaff.

Clerics have a d4 HD, 1/2 BAB and no armour proficiencies.

[Reinboom]

I use a rather large list of banned items in my games, inclusive of the Cleric and Druid (and archivist and wizard). With the blanket idea of : this is my world - they don't exist.
Even if I am fully trusting of my group and not present them the list of banned stuff, I will still outright ban the 4 above.

[captain_decadence]

In all the games that I've played in, clerics have been very important for healing. The encounters we have are hard (people die, not just get hurt) and we have quite a few a day. We also don't have wands just lying around. I actually don't think I've ever played a game where someone has a wand. It just doesn't happen in our games for some reason. Therefore, the clerics and druids do a lot of healing.

Also, we all roleplay a lot and go in depth in our characters. I don't think that my cleric of the hearth mother (even though she has a smithy/war aspect) is going to be going all crazy with buffs and taking everything around her out.

Also, we have a lot of long long long long long dungeons/missions (we don't really do dungeons per say usually). So if you cast a buff to get through a fight, that's nice, but you have eight more before you get out and it's going to be many many hours and there is no way the DM is going to let you rest in the dungeon.

I mean, really, how does CoDzilla exist when you think about the fact that you have many encounters per day. Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is. Sure, it works well if you have one or two fights per day but they seem to fall apart really easily if your party is one of those constant danger scenarios. A fighter can keep hitting people with swords until the cows come home (and then he can hit the cows) but spellcasters will run out of spells pretty fast, specially if enemies are hard/have immunities.

[tainsouvra]

Eh... CoDzilla refers to a certain way of playing clerics and druids, so that they do melee better than a fighter but still cast kickass spells.

Technically the term just refers to any cleric or druid, regardless of build or tactic, but it is generally used in the manner you describe. The difference matters primarily because you would have to ban the cleric and druid classes to actually "forbid CoDzilla" by the original meaning of the term, thus the earlier comments.

[tainsouvra]

I mean, really, how does CoDzilla exist when you think about the fact that you have many encounters per day. Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is. Sure, it works well if you have one or two fights per day but they seem to fall apart really easily if your party is one of those constant danger scenarios. A fighter can keep hitting people with swords until the cows come home (and then he can hit the cows) but spellcasters will run out of spells pretty fast, specially if enemies are hard/have immunities.

No offense, but you need to look up the feats/abilities/spells in question, because it just plain doesn't work that way. Most, if not all, of the real show-stealer CoD abilities have durations (after metamagic) that let them be always on--which means that "constant danger scenarios" are a non-issue.

[leperkhaun]

as with another posters my group doesnt play CoDzilla, we play clerics and druids.

[Miraqariftsky]

Play a Cleric or Druid.

Seriously.

My blaggard's a cleric... just not yet the right level.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Eh... CoDzilla refers to a certain way of playing clerics and druids, so that they do melee better than a fighter but still cast kickass spells.

Coming from a friend of the guy who coined the term: No, it doesn't. It refers to any cleric or druid. Not just a melee cleric or melee druid. The classes are seriously self-optimized. Throwing an effective build in there is just for overkill.

[Rex Blunder]

I thought a codzilla had something to do with divine favor, natural spell, and buff spells that last all day, and possibly nightsticks and divine metamagic; not simply "playing a cleric or druid".

Edit: If angel knows the guy who made up the term, i guess we should bow to angel's definition. But SOMEONE should define the term so we know what we are talking about.

[tainsouvra]

I thought a codzilla had something to do with divine favor, natural spell, and buff spells that last all day, and possibly nightsticks and divine metamagic; not simply "playing a cleric or druid".

Those are common things when one optimizes CoDzilla, and the term is used primarily in optimization, so it makes sense that you would get that impression. As for the origin of the term, however, OneWinged4ngel is correct. It just means "Cleric or Druid"--it was abbreviated as CoD for a while, but in response to the inherent power of those two classes "CoDzilla" took over as a popular term.

[Seffbasilisk]

I just have lots of traps and encounters draining the party's HP and suchnot, relegating cleric to heal-bitch and druid to backup heal-bitch.

[OneWinged4ngel]

IIRC (it was a long time ago...) The term originated in a discussion about the silliness of the "core is balanced, noncore is broken" ideology. CoDzilla rose from the seas to stomp all over that idea. The post came complete with a screenshot from the new godzilla movie where it's godzilla's eye view of a stunned reporter, and the entertaining caption "CoDzilla eye view of the DM." An instant later, it was a full blown meme =P

[C Harnryd]

Clerics and druids as written have never caused any problems in my campaigns. I require clerics to be religious, that is to belong to an organized religion and having to follow the rules and ethics of that religion. Druids either belong to a religion or have some strong connection to some group of nature entities with rules and ethics just like a religion.

I have nerfed full casters in general in at least one campaign, but that was for the general low-magic mood and thus applied to sorcerers and wizards too.

[Kaelik]

Beware the coming of the single winged celestial. He comes to inform you that writing Cleric or Druid automatically makes you a CoDzilla.

EDIT: HARCORE NINJAED!

Guess that's what I get for opening multiple tabs at once and getting to this one last.

[Kaelik]

I mean, really, how does CoDzilla exist when you think about the fact that you have many encounters per day. Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is. Sure, it works well if you have one or two fights per day but they seem to fall apart really easily if your party is one of those constant danger scenarios. A fighter can keep hitting people with swords until the cows come home (and then he can hit the cows) but spellcasters will run out of spells pretty fast, specially if enemies are hard/have immunities.

A) At what level? Past level 7 you don't run out of spells.

B) If you haven't figured out how to rest that's your fault.

Rope Trick. Level 2. Elven Wizard at level 5 can get back his spells. For a Level 3 Spell so can a Human one. You have been tricked. Everyone is when they start. They think that resting is something you do at night, or when you finish. In fact resting is done when you feel like it. Not that a Wizard cares after level 10. They'll run out of spell slots only after the Fighter dies.

Clerics don't even need to rest. They can just stand around at the ready, then get their spells back. Make a Tomb Tainted Soul/Undead Vitality/Spontaneous Inflicter with DMM persist and you don't ever have to stop the killing.

As for Healing. Clerics don't actually out of Combat heal, that's what wands are for. If you don't buy a Wand of Cure light that's a very stupid decision.

As for in combat healing. HAHAHAHA! Any turn you cast a healing spell that isn't mass cure X or Heal you are being a fool. You can do more damage then you can heal. So can whatever you are facing. You shouldn't waste your time like that, it actually hurts your party and leads to more lost HP then if you just killed everything.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Most of the power-players I run for don't care to play clerics or druids, so I've never had to expressly forbid CoDzillas.

I do, however, forbid CoDzooky.

[The_Snark]

A) At what level? Past level 7 you don't run out of spells.

B) If you haven't figured out how to rest that's your fault.

Rope Trick. Level 2. Elven Wizard at level 5 can get back his spells. For a Level 3 Spell so can a Human one. You have been tricked. Everyone is when they start. They think that resting is something you do at night, or when you finish. In fact resting is done when you feel like it. Not that a Wizard cares after level 10. They'll run out of spell slots only after the Fighter dies.

This works in a featureless dungeon crawl. In practice, there are plenty of things which sometimes prevent it, most often a quest tht you shouldn't just wait around on, or party members who think it's silly to stop at noon and wait for 18 hours for the cleric to pray again.

As for not needing to rest, yeah, that's kind of a problem at high levels. But when you first get Divine Power (the real cleric offender), you're only going to be able to cast it a couple times a day; barring DMM (persist), that's only a couple fights. At higher levels... point conceded. The cleric can buff and fight without really having to worry about running out of spells.

Clerics don't even need to rest. They can just stand around at the ready, then get their spells back. Make a Tomb Tainted Soul/Undead Vitality/Spontaneous Inflicter with DMM persist and you don't ever have to stop the killing.

As for Healing. Clerics don't actually out of Combat heal, that's what wands are for. If you don't buy a Wand of Cure light that's a very stupid decision.

As for in combat healing. HAHAHAHA! Any turn you cast a healing spell that isn't mass cure X or Heal you are being a fool. You can do more damage then you can heal. So can whatever you are facing. You shouldn't waste your time like that, it actually hurts your party and leads to more lost HP then if you just killed everything.

Well, firstly... how does that help you never rest? You still run out of spells eventually, especially if you have a tendancy to use up spell slots to Inflict Wounds on yourself.

Second, wands of Lesser Vigor are much better than wands of curing.

Third, that's very situational. At low levels, your cleric does probably something like 1d8+3 damage. He heals... hey, what do you know? About the same amount. If he can keep the fighter (who does, say, 2d6+6) up another round, it's worth it. At high levels, Cure spells are worthless in combat, yeah... but coincidentally, that's when you get Heal.

CoDzilla can be sort of a problem, but I generally mitigate it by encouraging druids to use variants like the ones in Unearthed Arcana, or the Shapeshift one from the PHBII. (Which rocks.) Clerics... go mostly unchanged, but my enemies tend to go heavy on the dispels when the clerics decide to buff to full power. And Divine Metamagic is banned.