Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Mystic Muse]

The subgame part is also completely irrelevant.

No one will ever play through a subgame where the only benefit is 1 life in whichever game came before that subgame. Ever.

This card's type and cost are also irrelevant because it only does something when searching through your library.

The card is just "any time you search your library, restart the game with no hands." No other part of the card matters.

[enderlord99]

Spoiler: If you read "I don't like (thing)" and assume that means "nobody likes (thing) and if you claim to you're lying" please do NOT open this spoiler. I know you're going to anyway, but I'm putting this disclaimer here so you don't get any excuses.

Show

Whenever I say "I don't like infinite combos" people act shocked and ask "Really? You don't like combos?" which is emblematic of the reason I don't like infinite combos: they make finite combos trivial and irrelevant, to the point that people don't acknowledge their existence.

The other response, mostly from Commander players is "What are you talking about? I'm totally fine with them. They're part of the game, so that means we all have to accept them. " as if I were accusing them of not liking infinite combos, rather than admitting I don't like them.

[Amechra]

Ugh, yeah, infinite combos are just really dull, since they usually end the game if they aren't answered. It's like how Emrakul and Griselbrand have made any deck that focuses on cheating out big scary creatures really dull and stale. Yeah, sure, that combo/big guy was neat the first time I ran into it, but the 10th time? The 100th?

And I'm saying this as someone whose favorite deck loops Familiar's Ruse/Peel From Reality and Eternal Witness as a softlock.

[Emmerlaus]

I don’t mind infinite combo myself as long as it’s one option you have to win in the deck rather then the whole focus. I have Brash Taunter and Guilty Conscience in my Alta Palani deck as a wincon but it’s not the only way I have to win in it, obviously. I think I hate more the decks that forever to play like storm deck. Commander is not resumed as someone playing Solitaire. And of course those that prevent you from playing anything like discard or stax. Infinite combo are just boring to play with and against after a while but I’m not judging if you like it.

[Dienekes]

So, for me, I'd say MTG is at it's most fun when it's a brawl on the battlefield with each player making small incremental gains that the opponent has a potential to play against or reverse on their turn. And the game becomes a tug of war of advantage. Effects are usually relatively minor but using a minor effect at the right time can swing a round in your favor. Though honestly, I'm pretty certain this is not the optimal way to play pretty much any of the game. But it is fun.

Infinite combos usually don't really play like that. So I don't really enjoy them myself. But I don't really begrudge them existing so long as they take an adequate amount of time to perform. It's essentially an alternate win condition. If it happens round 3 to 5 I'd find them annoying. Round 8 to 10 I'm probably fine conceding that you won. But then as noted above, I enjoy slower grindier matches than most people seem to.

[Spore]

they make finite combos trivial and irrelevant, to the point that people don't acknowledge their existence.

This is objectively wrong even though you can feel that way yes. Finite combos (and for the sake of argument I mean 3+ card combos, not two cards that go well together) are very relevant if they go off faster than infinite combos. If the infinite thing is faster though, that needs some serious looking into and maybe a ban.

[Androgeus]

Is casting Primal Surge in a deck where it's the only non-permanent card a finite or infinite combo?

[LansXero]

Is casting Primal Surge in a deck where it's the only non-permanent card a finite or infinite combo?

Its "you may"

[enderlord99]

Its "you may"

That's not relevant to the discussion; it just means it's not considered by the rules to be a loop.

"Infinite combo" means "anything you can repeat indefinitely for no further cost." The rules define "loop" more stringently as "something that nobody involved can stop repeating, no matter what they do" which isn't what we've been arguing about.

[Emmerlaus]

Is casting Primal Surge in a deck where it's the only non-permanent card a finite or infinite combo?

It’s a finite combo, limited by the number of cards in your deck

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: If you read "I don't like (thing)" and assume that means "nobody likes (thing) and if you claim to you're lying" please do NOT open this spoiler. I know you're going to anyway, but I'm putting this disclaimer here so you don't get any excuses.

Show

Whenever I say "I don't like infinite combos" people act shocked and ask "Really? You don't like combos?" which is emblematic of the reason I don't like infinite combos: they make finite combos trivial and irrelevant, to the point that people don't acknowledge their existence.

The other response, mostly from Commander players is "What are you talking about? I'm totally fine with them. They're part of the game, so that means we all have to accept them. " as if I were accusing them of not liking infinite combos, rather than admitting I don't like them.

Enderlord99, nearly all of these comments boil down to one of two things.

1. You use a sentence that can be interpreted in a wide range of ways and expect people to know exactly what you meant based on precise definitions they may not share, or

2. You make statements that don't invite any conversation and act surprised when people interpret them in ways that do.

This is the latter. No one cares if you like infinite combos, any more then you care if someone likes pants. It invites no conversation, its just a preference. So people assume you meant to phrase it in a way that did invite conversation, which is either discussing the merits of the object in question or sharing their own preferences as a social activity.

[Emmerlaus]

Well explained Tvtyrant

[mythmonster2]

Bad news for anyone who didn't like the Walking Dead: Crossovers are here to stay. They will be printed with a special holostamp and put under the label "Universes Beyond." To start off, we are having Warhammer 40K Commander decks, and a Lord of the Rings set. These will include original cards. Universes Beyond will not be Standard legal, at least, but will be in Commander/Legacy/Vintage.

[Emmerlaus]

Their excuses is such a blatant lie. Its obviously for a cash grab. And no silver border too huh?

Look, I never was a fan of The Walking Dead but Magic The Gathering had its own lore. I do think this is not respectful for the original lore and the world they builded. I still think that I would have like better if they admitted the truth and said that because they estimated that the Walking Dead Secret lair was a success, they are doing this.

But... sigh... Im a big fan of Lord of the Rings. So I dont know what to think.

I sure hope they wont create new words though like "walkers" for Zombies. That's just uncool.

[noob]

Next they will make a Starcraft and magic the gathering crossover so that blizzard can do the same thing as GW?

[LaZodiac]

I for one am fairly excited for this, in part because my girlfriend is way into both, so I'll be enjoying it with her. I also like LOTR myself to a degree.

[noob]

Does this mean there might be later a mtg warhammer 40k in dnd cross over and thus official dnd stats for space marines(they are monsters probably)?

[LaZodiac]

Does this mean there might be later a mtg warhammer 40k in dnd cross over and thus official dnd stats for space marines(they are monsters probably)?

Theoretically yeah, that could happen.

[LansXero]

Would be a slap on the face of the guys workin on their RPG, who are doing a pretty decent job imho.

[enderlord99]

I somehow managed to actually pull off this combo in Historic exactly once.

[NigelWalmsley]

Ugh, yeah, infinite combos are just really dull, since they usually end the game if they aren't answered. It's like how Emrakul and Griselbrand have made any deck that focuses on cheating out big scary creatures really dull and stale. Yeah, sure, that combo/big guy was neat the first time I ran into it, but the 10th time? The 100th?

And I'm saying this as someone whose favorite deck loops Familiar's Ruse/Peel From Reality and Eternal Witness as a softlock.

I mean, how is that different from playing against Burn, a deck that would play as many copies of Lightning Bolt as it was allowed to? Personally, I rather like infinite combos, because they end the game and (in multiplayer formats) end it for every player at the same time. I would much rather lose to a combo deck that just kills me with Heliod + Walking Ballista or Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle or whatever than a control deck that slowly grinds me out of the game on the back of Teferi and a bunch of answers. And I would way rather have a Commander game end with one player getting infinite life and killing everyone with Aetherflux Reservoir than sit around for an hour waiting for the game to end after I got alpha-struck the turn before someone reset the board.

Next they will make a Starcraft and magic the gathering crossover so that blizzard can do the same thing as GW?

I doubt Blizzard will cross over with Magic. If they wanted to put their IP in a card game, they'd just make that the next Hearthstone expansion.

Does this mean there might be later a mtg warhammer 40k in dnd cross over and thus official dnd stats for space marines(they are monsters probably)?

Are there not homebrew stats you can use somewhere? I vaguely remember someone making something called Dungeon Crusade that was supposed to let you play Space Marines in D&Dland.

[enderlord99]

This is objectively wrong even though you can feel that way yes. Finite combos (and for the sake of argument I mean 3+ card combos, not two cards that go well together) are very relevant if they go off faster than infinite combos. If the infinite thing is faster though, that needs some serious looking into and maybe a ban.

I have literally overheard people say things like "the main types of deck are 'aggro', 'control' and 'infinite combo'."

[Shadow of the Sun]

I have literally overheard people say things like "the main types of deck are 'aggro', 'control' and 'infinite combo'."

Which was true about 20 years ago. Nowadays you need to take a more nuanced approach - stuff like tempo, ramp, midrange, stax, prison, etc.

[NigelWalmsley]

Which was true about 20 years ago. Nowadays you need to take a more nuanced approach - stuff like tempo, ramp, midrange, stax, prison, etc.

It wasn't true then either. Take a look at the Top 8 from PT Chicago in 2000. Half the slots are Fires, which is recognizably "Midrange" by most definitions. Counter Rebels is a Tempo deck (though the archetype might have been called "Fish" at the time, I'm not totally clear on the history). Combo (particularly infinite combo, which many earlier combo decks like Storm actually weren't) is certainly a major deck archetype, but it's not generally one of the top three. That's typically Aggro/Midrange/Control.

[enderlord99]

Which was true about 20 years ago.

20 years ago all relevant combos were infinite. Got it.

[NigelWalmsley]

20 years ago all relevant combos were infinite. Got it.

This isn't true either. Early combo decks included things like Storm, which is the classic example of a non-infinite combo. But, frankly, there's not a lot of difference in practice between a combo that deals 30 damage and a combo that deals infinity damage when you only have 20 life to begin with.

[Tvtyrant]

20 years ago all relevant combos were infinite. Got it.

It wasn't true then or now. Valakut and ad naseaum are both none-infinite combos, Oven Cat doesn't create an infinite loop, and the best combo is legacy is Show and Tell which isn't an infinite combo.

[enderlord99]

...Then why the hey did so many people say it?

[NigelWalmsley]

...Then why the hey did so many people say it?

I dunno. Frankly, I don't understand why so many people here are making the distinction between infinite and non-infinite combo. In my experience elsewhere, people pretty much refer to it as "Combo", regardless of whether it's an infinite loop like Splinter Twin + Deceiver Exarch, an instant win like Tainted Pact + Thassa's Oracle, or a finite-but-big-enough combo like Storm.

[Techwarrior]

Gift/Donate was also a combo deck that was definitively non-infinite and is one of the most iconic combo decks from that era.