Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Dienekes]

To those wanting a WB Liliana, I disagree. She is one of their most iconic mono-B characters, and it is possible to show her being more sympathetic without adding White, especially because philosophically it is the color most antithetical to her mode of thought. A more sympathetic Liliana still won't be about sacrificing herself for the common good, because that isn't how she thinks, even when she tried to sacrifice herself in War of the Spark she did it to free herself from Bolas. You can also have a mono-B character who is still sympathetic and even somewhat heroic. Presumably, as a professor she is teaching her students how to look out for themselves and seek the personal advantage in every situation, because by the standard Black philosophy, that is the way to succeed, and if everyone else is doing it you don't need to worry about helping them. (I don't necessarily agree with this, but I can see the logical consistency).
I don't know if I explained that well. I'm better at arguing in person than through text.

As an aside, I think it's kind of funny (but ultimately well done) that they had the main character fallout for Gideon's sacrifice be Nissa actually turning Black, because she wanted to emulate him, and she saw him as someone who stood up for himself and what he wanted.

And, finally, did anyone else have the realization that, with Garruk acting as the Twins' planeswalking-surrogate-uncle in loco parentis there is going to be a really awkward encounter when he comes to pick them up at the end of the semester?

Thing is, I think as written it’s both selfish and selfless.

In the -admittedly often quite bad- War book, she realizes it’s the only way to be free of Bolas= black. But also as she is dying immediately thinks how she’s doing this for “friends who would curse her name.”= white.

And as the real kicker, when Gideon puts up his shield around her she pleads for him not to do it. Realizing what he is doing will save her, free her, and she still begs for him to let her die instead of herself. That’s pure white right there. Willingness to sacrifice yourself for someone you think is a better person than you.

You are right of course a mono-black person can be sympathetic. I’ve said before one of the only MTG books I would credit as being actually good quality rather than being pretty mediocre but riding on that MTG license was Chainer’s Torment. Which solely worked because the nightmare spawning dementist was sympathetic as he circled the drain to hell. But as I said, I’m pretty confident Leliana will be a smidge more decent of a person, I’d just have liked to see that get expressed mechanically. This is first and foremost a card game after all.

That and I also do have a minor annoyance that Nissa is the one who develops from it. Since, Nissa is the worst. Though totally in character for her to get the wrong message about what’s going on.

Man she’s annoying.

But I also am just not too worried about the token mono-color characters getting a second color identity for a little bit. Garruk was once the symbol of Green before he was corrupted to black. Now Nissa is a bit black and he’s back to green. And I’m certain there are other characters that are seen as a big representative of a color identity and get a splash of something else for a little while.

[Personification]

Thing is, I think as written it’s both selfish and selfless.

In the -admittedly often quite bad- War book, she realizes it’s the only way to be free of Bolas= black. But also as she is dying immediately thinks how she’s doing this for “friends who would curse her name.”= white.

And as the real kicker, when Gideon puts up his shield around her she pleads for him not to do it. Realizing what he is doing will save her, free her, and she still begs for him to let her die instead of herself. That’s pure white right there. Willingness to sacrifice yourself for someone you think is a better person than you.

You are right of course a mono-black person can be sympathetic. I’ve said before one of the only MTG books I would credit as being actually good quality rather than being pretty mediocre but riding on that MTG license was Chainer’s Torment. Which solely worked because the nightmare spawning dementist was sympathetic as he circled the drain to hell. But as I said, I’m pretty confident Leliana will be a smidge more decent of a person, I’d just have liked to see that get expressed mechanically. This is first and foremost a card game after all.

That and I also do have a minor annoyance that Nissa is the one who develops from it. Since, Nissa is the worst. Though totally in character for her to get the wrong message about what’s going on.

Man she’s annoying.

But I also am just not too worried about the token mono-color characters getting a second color identity for a little bit. Garruk was once the symbol of Green before he was corrupted to black. Now Nissa is a bit black and he’s back to green. And I’m certain there are other characters that are seen as a big representative of a color identity and get a splash of something else for a little while.

To your first point:
I will cede that wanting someone else to live rather than yourself is more W than B, but I don't think it is purely W. B is allowed to have loved ones and they are allowed to have the selfishness (which they see as a virtue) take the form of elevating their core group of loved ones as much as themselves (though if this "core group" extends beyond a few people, then yes, it is just W). The moment certainly leans out of B, but it isn't totally divorced from it. More to the point, though, while that moment definitely stuck with Liliana, it probably didn't do so in a way that changed her color permanently. There are few-to-no people she would sacrifice herself for other than Gideon (the only one that maybe comes to mind is Josu, and we all know how that turned out) so a situation where she'd get the Orzhov feels isn't likely to come up again, and I would think that her reaction to it would be making sure that it never has a chance to happen again, which is more B than WB.

To your point about monocolor walkers:
That's fair, but the Garruk thing was external to him. Part of what makes the iconic monocolors work is that in addition to mechanically embodying their colors, they are very strongly associated with them philosophically. Jace and Chandra are the best examples of this, but of the Lorwyn 5 only Ajani didn't fit that model, which I think is part of why they put Gids in the Gatewatch instead. When Garruk turned B, it wasn't because his pretty much unshakeable G philosophy was shifted, but because he was cursed. They replaced him with Nissa, but she was never as strongly mono-colored, and eventually she was replaced as the mono-G headliner by Vivien, who is philosophically very similar to Garruk. This is all a poorly executed and long winded way of saying that I don't think anything outside of an external magical effect is likely to change Liliana's colors (or Jace or Chandra for that matter). Also, as a sidenote on your point about Nissa, I entered the fandom after her elf-supremacism was retconned away, so I don't have as much of a problem with her.

[LaZodiac]

It wasn't retconned away, there was stories where she confronted her issues and realized she was being a dip **** about it, around the time leading up to Battle for Zendikar. She even refers to that bad period of her life in Kaladesh.

[LansXero]

You are right of course a mono-black person can be sympathetic. I’ve said before one of the only MTG books I would credit as being actually good quality rather than being pretty mediocre but riding on that MTG license was Chainer’s Torment. Which solely worked because the nightmare spawning dementist was sympathetic as he circled the drain to hell.

Chainer was awesome. That hospital scene and the way he treated the healer would be 'white' if you applied the same narrow definition of colors people wanting a BW Liliana do, but Chainer is pure black. Everything he does isn't for his own personal gain, hell he is the only one to willingly give up the Mirari, it is to get revenge for Skellum. That pupil/mentor love is probably not 'black enough' for color purists, but serves as the moving force for an extremely black character. The way he treats the other cabalists, the way he cares for his friends, etc. none of it make him white.

[Tvtyrant]

Not wanting Gideon to die for her seems very in character for black to me. The thing Lilli hates is being in debt to someone, Gideon dying to save her leaves her in moral debt forever.

[Amechra]

The thing is that having a few moments of "acting white" isn't going to shift a character's color identity, any more than someone losing their temper a couple times (even if it happens at a climactic moment!) is going to make someone red.

Liliana is a deeply selfish person, but that doesn't mean that she can't care. After all, a part of her is still that young woman who poisoned her brother and had to kill him because she cared.

[Personification]

The thing is that having a few moments of "acting white" isn't going to shift a character's color identity, any more than someone losing their temper a couple times (even if it happens at a climactic moment!) is going to make someone red.

Liliana is a deeply selfish person, but that doesn't mean that she can't care. After all, a part of her is still that young woman who poisoned her brother and had to kill him because she cared.

This is what I was trying to say, but better.
Also, I really think that the first story article hit those notes well. Professor Onyx genuinely seems to care about her students and their studies.

[Dienekes]

The thing is that having a few moments of "acting white" isn't going to shift a character's color identity, any more than someone losing their temper a couple times (even if it happens at a climactic moment!) is going to make someone red.

Liliana is a deeply selfish person, but that doesn't mean that she can't care. After all, a part of her is still that young woman who poisoned her brother and had to kill him because she cared.

That actually did make Ajani a White Red card for a set.

And that is all I was trying to say. I was not advocating that Leliana become an only WB for all eternity character. I was saying it would be nice if from the dramatic events where she lost one of the few people she cared about, who maintained true to a philosophy she claimed to despise but ultimately ended up following during what she thought was going to be her final act. It'd be nice if that was shown mechanically by giving her a White/Black card as a representation that she is now on a different path where she at least tries to temper her selfishness.

Then we can get her to backpedal when she has to deal with the Raven Man or whatever is going on there.

[LaZodiac]

Hilariously in the context of Strixhaven, she would lean more black-green because she said she was part of Witherbloom.

[Amechra]

If I remember correctly, isn't it more of a case that, in-universe, Ajani was RW and then shifted to GW after avenging his brother and consciously and emphatically rejecting his rage?

I'm also not sure if Ajani counts, because that was more of a transition from being RWg to being rWG.

(Also, BW Lils wouldn't work in this set, because then she's be all about slam poetry.)

[LaZodiac]

If I remember correctly, isn't it more of a case that, in-universe, Ajani was RW and then shifted to GW after avenging his brother and consciously and emphatically rejecting his rage?

I'm also not sure if Ajani counts, because that was more of a transition from being RWg to being rWG.

(Also, BW Lils wouldn't work in this set, because then she's be all about slam poetry.)

All of this is correct. Ajani Vengeant is Red White because it is Ajani BEFORE his character development.

[Amechra]

Speaking of Gideon, I whipped this up in about an hour:

Spoiler: The Life Of Kytheon Iora

Show

EDIT: Before people ask, I restricted myself to cards that were about Gideon, not just cards with his flavor text. The only exceptions are Path To Exile (I needed some way to represent his planeswalk to Bant) and Command The Dreadhorde/Price of Betrayal/Confront The Past, because they're kinda necessary to understand the sequence of events in WAR.

Things aren't in the right order, I skipped the first time Gideon was in Ravnica, and I kludged Rise of the Eldrazi (because Near-Death Experience come on) and Oath of the Gatewatch together. I think this is justified by the final effect.

EDIT EDIT: If I did a Liliana one, the second-to-last line would be identical.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Speaking of Gideon, I whipped this up in about an hour:

Spoiler: The Life Of Kytheon Iora

Show

EDIT EDIT: If I did a Liliana one, the second-to-last line would be identical.

Nice. I've always liked how you can glean the story from the cards, in that the cards not only depict notable individuals but distinct moments in the plot. As opposed to generic action scenes, magic-using scenes, or landscapes. Though of course some cards like that are needed (basic lands, lol).

Hmm. Liliana's a necromancer isn't she. The first option of Confront the Past sure raises some flags.

[LaZodiac]

Nice. I've always liked how you can glean the story from the cards, in that the cards not only depict notable individuals but distinct moments in the plot. As opposed to generic action scenes, magic-using scenes, or landscapes. Though of course some cards like that are needed (basic lands, lol).

Hmm. Liliana's a necromancer isn't she. The first option of Confront the Past sure raises some flags.

Gideon's body was turned to ash, he is not going to be revived, dead is dead in Magic.

The first ability is more symbolic of Liliana's wishes, than actual reality. Mechanics and flavour don't always overlap.

Also that card spread is real cool! I feel like it is missing Anointed Procession, but it still flows really well.

[enderlord99]

Gideon's body was turned to ash, he is not going to be revived

That sounds accurate

dead is dead in Magic.

Counterpoint: Ugin.

[Personification]

Counterpoint: Ugin.

Countercounterpoint: Ugin is a ghost.
Countercountercounterpoint: All of the Theros underworld stuff, Mizzet, Saffi Eriksdotter (Time Spiral), that one Time Hans was in the flavor text of Revenant, other Time Spiral shenanigans, Bolas, Ugin the second time etc.
Countercountercountercounterpoint: The main thing about the rule is that if a character dies, isn't resurrected within the story of the block/set/story in which they died, isn't in a position where circumstances make resurrection easy, AND the story team says "yes, they are dead", then dead is dead. In other situations resurrection magic is still viable. (Except the Time Spiral thing, that breaks all of the rules. But also, Time Spiral memes.) In this case Gideon is dead, and nothing you can do will bring him back.

Aside: Was anyone else's first reaction to the Liliana thing, "I bet she's going to tell the students that she sees herself getting a pair of socks."

[enderlord99]

In this case Gideon is dead, and nothing you can do will bring him back.

I agree. I was just pointing out that it's not always that cut-and-dry (even though it clearly is in this particular case)

[LansXero]

In this case Gideon is dead, and nothing you can do will bring him back.

Aside: Was anyone else's first reaction to the Liliana thing, "I bet she's going to tell the students that she sees herself getting a pair of socks."

So wait, how did Elspeth get back that Gideon can't?

[Dienekes]

So wait, how did Elspeth get back that Gideon can't?

Elspeth died on Theros, which has a distinct afterlife land that can be escaped from. Gideon died on Ravnica which like pretty much everywhere else, does not.

[Amechra]

Also that card spread is real cool! I feel like it is missing Anointed Procession, but it still flows really well.

I could see maybe adding Anointed Procession between Cruel Reality and Gideon's Intervention (you know, where it goes — Story Spotlight cards actually make this really easy to organize) and moving Worship down to the row below it, but I don't think it necessarily adds anything?

Like, we already have "Gideon likes it in Amonkhet" → "Gideon learns the awful truth" → "Gideon vs. a god" → "Gideon gets punked" → "Gideon still respects Oketra, despite everything". I feel like Anointed Procession (aka "Gideon realizes that his original preconceptions about Amonkhet are wrong") is already covered by Cruel Reality.

I think the cards I'm really missing are:

• Some way to represent that Kytheon was chosen by Heliod, and that his Tragic Arrogance was trying to kill Heliod with his own spear (because Heliod is awful). The parallels between that and Amonkhet are pretty important, and I feel like that might not come across in the current spread. I'd probably replace Valor in Akros with it.
• Maybe Taranika, as another way that his legacy lives on?

When I have the time, I might bash together one of these sheets for another character in the Gatewatch. I'm thinking... basically anyone that isn't Nissa? Liliana might have to wait until Strixhaven is entirely spoiled, though.

[Personification]

I could see maybe adding Anointed Procession between Cruel Reality and Gideon's Intervention (you know, where it goes — Story Spotlight cards actually make this really easy to organize) and moving Worship down to the row below it, but I don't think it necessarily adds anything?

Like, we already have "Gideon likes it in Amonkhet" → "Gideon learns the awful truth" → "Gideon vs. a god" → "Gideon gets punked" → "Gideon still respects Oketra, despite everything". I feel like Anointed Procession (aka "Gideon realizes that his original preconceptions about Amonkhet are wrong") is already covered by Cruel Reality.

I think the cards I'm really missing are:

• Some way to represent that Kytheon was chosen by Heliod, and that his Tragic Arrogance was trying to kill Heliod with his own spear (because Heliod is awful). The parallels between that and Amonkhet are pretty important, and I feel like that might not come across in the current spread. I'd probably replace Valor in Akros with it.
• Maybe Taranika, as another way that his legacy lives on?

When I have the time, I might bash together one of these sheets for another character in the Gatewatch. I'm thinking... basically anyone that isn't Nissa? Liliana might have to wait until Strixhaven is entirely spoiled, though.

Nitpick, he didn't try to kill Heliod. He tried to kill Erebos on Heliod's behalf without asking first, because he became champion to defend people from Erebos's monsters, and he had just seen how powerful the spear was. Erebos was actually the god that killed all of his friends.

[LaZodiac]

That sounds accurateCounterpoint: Ugin.

The amount of effort that went into reviving him (and various other factors) makes that a different case. Also as Person says below, he was a ghost for awhile.

Countercounterpoint: Ugin is a ghost.
Countercountercounterpoint: All of the Theros underworld stuff, Mizzet, Saffi Eriksdotter (Time Spiral), that one Time Hans was in the flavor text of Revenant, other Time Spiral shenanigans, Bolas, Ugin the second time etc.
Countercountercountercounterpoint: The main thing about the rule is that if a character dies, isn't resurrected within the story of the block/set/story in which they died, isn't in a position where circumstances make resurrection easy, AND the story team says "yes, they are dead", then dead is dead. In other situations resurrection magic is still viable. (Except the Time Spiral thing, that breaks all of the rules. But also, Time Spiral memes.) In this case Gideon is dead, and nothing you can do will bring him back.

Aside: Was anyone else's first reaction to the Liliana thing, "I bet she's going to tell the students that she sees herself getting a pair of socks."

Oh absolutely she would say something like that. Liliana is not one to let her feelings out, after all.

I could see maybe adding Anointed Procession between Cruel Reality and Gideon's Intervention (you know, where it goes — Story Spotlight cards actually make this really easy to organize) and moving Worship down to the row below it, but I don't think it necessarily adds anything?

Like, we already have "Gideon likes it in Amonkhet" → "Gideon learns the awful truth" → "Gideon vs. a god" → "Gideon gets punked" → "Gideon still respects Oketra, despite everything". I feel like Anointed Procession (aka "Gideon realizes that his original preconceptions about Amonkhet are wrong") is already covered by Cruel Reality.

I think the cards I'm really missing are:

• Some way to represent that Kytheon was chosen by Heliod, and that his Tragic Arrogance was trying to kill Heliod with his own spear (because Heliod is awful). The parallels between that and Amonkhet are pretty important, and I feel like that might not come across in the current spread. I'd probably replace Valor in Akros with it.
• Maybe Taranika, as another way that his legacy lives on?

When I have the time, I might bash together one of these sheets for another character in the Gatewatch. I'm thinking... basically anyone that isn't Nissa? Liliana might have to wait until Strixhaven is entirely spoiled, though.

I think adding Taranika and the memorial that she is standing in front of is a nice final touch of things.

Why not Nissa? Also doing Jace would be fun but also really hard because the first entire like, third of his arc was not on cards, and until Kaldheim happened not even on planes we knew about.

[LansXero]

Elspeth died on Theros, which has a distinct afterlife land that can be escaped from. Gideon died on Ravnica which like pretty much everywhere else, does not.

Wait wasn't Ravnica's afterlife all under Orzhov control?

[Tvtyrant]

Wait wasn't Ravnica's afterlife all under Orzhov control?

Yeah but they already did a "Gideon is in his own afterline with his buddies" card.

[Dienekes]

Wait wasn't Ravnica's afterlife all under Orzhov control?

Ravnican afterlife is weird. There are souls. What happens to them is somewhat vague. But it seems that certain groups can tap into it to make them -not resurrected exactly- but there. Orzhov basically calls forth spirits for those who didn't finish paying their debts or are part of the upper echelon. But Dimir has used spirits as well. And Feather called another.

So yeah, I guess there could in theory be a Legendary Spirit Gideon at some point. It'd be pretty odd though.

Yeah but they already did a "Gideon is in his own afterline with his buddies" card.

Which is odd, since they died on Theros and he did not. And Elspeth's death made a distinct point that she needed to actually die on Theros to get to the afterlife there.

[Amechra]

I think adding Taranika and the memorial that she is standing in front of is a nice final touch of things.

Why not Nissa? Also doing Jace would be fun but also really hard because the first entire like, third of his arc was not on cards, and until Kaldheim happened not even on planes we knew about.

Nissa is kinda messy on account of her essentially being two entirely different characters? I'm not sure how I'd handle that.

Also, I'll be honest — I love Magic's lore, but I more-or-less ignore the short stories/novels (it helps me avoid "decidedly male" situations). That's part of why, for example, I didn't bother to do Gideon's stuff in-between Bant and Zendikar — I know he met Chandra and followed her to Zendikar, but it's not like I can find any cards for that. No cards? It didn't happen.

[enderlord99]

What's a good name for a format similar to Supervillain Rumble, but instead of each person bringing Schemes, they're drafted? For clarity, the main deck (including sideboard, if used) is still individually Constructed.

I'm thinking "Gambit Cube" but I'm very much open to better suggestions.

[LaZodiac]

Nissa is kinda messy on account of her essentially being two entirely different characters? I'm not sure how I'd handle that.

Also, I'll be honest — I love Magic's lore, but I more-or-less ignore the short stories/novels (it helps me avoid "decidedly male" situations). That's part of why, for example, I didn't bother to do Gideon's stuff in-between Bant and Zendikar — I know he met Chandra and followed her to Zendikar, but it's not like I can find any cards for that. No cards? It didn't happen.

I'm genuinely curious what Jace's story spread will look like then, given there is a huge gap between "spark ignites" and "oops I'm the president of Ravnica" covered by those novels. Which are good by the way, even if we sometimes get **** like WAR (which does have good moments too).

Here is what we know about the Ravnican afterlife; there was originally a big tear in the world that lead to a ghost city called Agyrem, the Ghost Quarter. This is where most ghosts went, unless they were specifically bound by Orzhov contracts. After the mending, Agyrem vanished, poof, gone. As near we can tell, ghosts just... exist, on the plane, as a natural thing when people die, but not always when tehy die, BUT always if Orzhov deals have been made to pull their soul to them. But ghost zone is not afterlife, so... the people who don't become ghosts gotta go somewhere.

The thing about Kytheon being shown in Elysium with his buddies is that, canonically, by word of god, we don't actually know if it was because the Gods rewarded him and shunted his soul to Theros, or if it was a hallucination he was having as he died, or if the afterlife on Ravnica is more of a quasi paradise where you just get what you expect, which in Gideon's case would be reuniting with his friends. The official word on this is "we are leaving it vague, you decide."

[Amechra]

I'm genuinely curious what Jace's story spread will look like then, given there is a huge gap between "spark ignites" and "oops I'm the president of Ravnica" covered by those novels. Which are good by the way, even if we sometimes get **** like WAR (which does have good moments too).

Not on the cards? It didn't happen.

So yeah, Jace just shows up one day, decides to throw down in some maze solving, and ends up ruling a plane. These things happen! If WotC wanted the rest of his arc to be in the spread, they should've made the cards.

[Androgeus]

I love that if you did one for Niv-Mizzet he'd suddenly get resurrected with out ever actually dying