A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

[Dork_Forge]

If Undeniable Logic works on unconscious allies, then how come one of the many reasons the PDK is derided is being unable to do the exact same thing? Is the logic that undeniable... or is there a lack of it altogether?

For fluff reasons you can say one is a magical effect vs a morale only effect. Mechanically there's no sense really, PDK should be able to bring people up from zero with their main subclass feature (that also relies on a once per short rest resource), as it stands its underpowered for being what it is.

[Sigreid]

I dont care for them. The bard in particular seems designed to not let the skill expert succeed because it's not magic.

[Kane0]

Crazy thought, what could we strip from these UAs to improve on existing released material?

Universal speech would be great fitted into the Whipsers bard, Soothing Words I think makes for a great alternative to Countercharm, Infectious Inspiration works in many places but how about replacing the Glamor bard Unbreakable majesty?

Legendary strike is a great alternative to the Devotion Pally's Sacred Weapon, Mighty Deed and Glorious Defense would be great for a Crown pally.

Totally insane thought, what if there was a PHB2 that took all the UA over the years and used it to rebuild the PHB and Xan's classes/subclasses rather than releasing new ones?

[HappyDaze]

Oath of Heroism sounds like the chosen of those fickle, dickish Greek gods.

[dragoeniex]

I dont care for them. The bard in particular seems designed to not let the skill expert succeed because it's not magic.

I'm curious what you mean by this. Is it a concern this kind of build might encourage DMs not to let non-magic calming or persuasive attempts succeed when another party member has the subclass? Or that it might encourage players to leave it all to the one with the magic power for it? ... Something else?

[Hytheter]

Oath of Heroism makes me want to play a Bardadin of some kind, a chosen hero singing heroic ballads about himself. Unfortunately it seems like it would take too long to come online in terms of effectiveness, since I think you definitely want at least Pal 5/Bard 5 (and at that point might as well go Pal 6 for Aura) OR Pal 3/Bard 6 (Valor or Swords).

I think I'd favour the latter (Swords) if I was starting around that level. Peerless Athlete+Expertise is a great grappling combo. Legendary Strike+TWF+Flourish+Lots of Spell Slots should make some nice critfishing. Has potential?

[strangebloke]

Mighty deed is crazy.

Like, forget the multiclass nonsense. Lets say you have an ally who gives you advantage. Casting fairie fire or greater invisibility or knocking enemies prone or whatever. There are lots of ways. You're a half-elf, already nearly the best race for the class, and you have a rapier and elven accuracy. You get two attacks. Heck, swap to shortswords for three attacks.

That's 62% chance of critting once, and not bad odds of critting more than that. If the enemy can be frightened, you'll frighten them. That makes you really good at crowd control, albeit in a different way than the fear pally. You're just sort of this flaming beacon of fear that they can't approach.

TBH doesn't seem like great design. Too many saving throws slows down combat too much. I'm supposed to be rolling fear saves four times a round for each monster?

[AdAstra]

I find it rather odd that people don't find the Oath of Heroism strong. Like, comparing it's features to other Oaths, it stands at a very good place, arguably at the top of the heap, on a very strong class to begin with.

Spell List- Definitely less great than Vengeance, but has a lot of solid picks, like Guiding Bolt, Haste, and Conjure Volley, and the only outright bad spells on the list are Enthrall and Protection from Energy. All the other ones give you solid options that Paladins often lack.

Channel Divinity- Peerless Athlete is not the best, but you'll find places where it's useful, and if you like grappling it's great. Legendary Strike is a bit weaker than Vow of Emnity, but it's not exclusive to one target, and can stack with advantage. Paladin crits are nasty, and can trigger Mighty Deed, so with some support, or a barbarian multiclass for Reckless Attack, you're going to be getting a lot of crit-smites, that also buff/debuff others.

Mighty Deed- This one is insane. First off, there's no restriction on what creatures trigger it, so you could carry a bag of rats or whatever and basically have at-will temp HP for your entire party every encounter. Even without cheese, you're going to be killing creatures and scoring crits at least twice in most encounters. Fear, even for one round, is a strong condition to inflict, and this allows you to inflict it on multiple creatures at no resource cost as long as you're attacking things. It's not the most reliable ability in a round-by-round sense, but the only 7th level Paladin abilities that match up to this in power are the Ancients and Devotion Auras, which are far more situational, compared to this, which is almost always going to save your party a lot of HP over time. A Vengeance Paladin with PAM is also really solid, but is a specific build that only really helps you, so I would consider it far worse for the party as a whole.

Glorious Defense is by a wide margin the best Paladin ability at 15th level, except for probably a Devotion Pally in an outsider-heavy game. A big AC boost as a reaction, and if the boost works you get an attack against them. Vengeance Paladins have an ability that could almost match this, but it's tied to their Vow of Emnity, so that brings it down a lot.

Living Myth is really strong, but most similar abilities are, and by this point balance means a lot less, so it's probably fine. Still, being able to automatically succeed on saving throws and attacks is great.

Basically, while there's no real ability here that will completely break the game (though Mighty Deed comes very close if you cheese it), Heroism gives great abilities at every point. Its spell list compensates for your weaknesses and boosts your strengths, the Channel Divinity options are solid and become great if you go out of your way to take advantage of them, Mighty Deed provides free limitless buff/debuffing on a regular basis, and can be exploited for even more effect, Glorious Defense greatly increases your defense and offense at the same time, and Living Myth allows you to just ignore dice rolls. It's roughly equal or better than its peers at every turn, on a chassis that already does very well for itself. That, and all of it's abilities are useful against just about any foe, with any kind of build, and require little thought on how best to use them for maximum effect.

[Kane0]

Mighty deed is crazy.

-snip-

TBH doesn't seem like great design. Too many saving throws slows down combat too much. I'm supposed to be rolling fear saves four times a round for each monster?

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.

Mighty Deed- This one is insane. First off, there's no restriction on what creatures trigger it, so you could carry a bag of rats or whatever and basically have at-will temp HP for your entire party every encounter.

Ah crap you're right, Mighty Deed fails the Bag O' Rats test. C'mon WotC, you can do better than that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I have personal issues with the Oath of Heroism, namely that the 7th level feature isn't an Aura. Oath of Vengeance already breaks that standard, being the only paladin subclass in print (this includes Oathbreaker and Xanathars) that doesn't gain an additional aura at 7th level. To me, Aura effects seem like the standard level 7 ability. Vengeance is enough of an oddball already, I'd hate to encourage more of that.

Mighty Deed seems like something PDK should have had, at the very least I like it more as a Fighter feature than a Paladin one. Take the fear effect away and reflavor it instead to Commanding/Inspiring Presence.

With the very opinionated problems out of the way, slightly more objective from now on - The spell list needs a slight tweak, most specifically Conjure Volley seems incredibly out of place for spells that emulate heroic actions, whether or not you believe the other spells are good they all do a decent enough job at filling a role like heroically charging into battle with Expeditious Retreat (good irony there) and Protection from Energy allowing you to be an unflappable wall against that elemental attack. I understand that Compulsion is meant to fill a spot like "the hero is always persuasive" thing but it seems a bit forced on that front, I'm confident that there are more suitable 4th level spells. Like Death Ward. Death Ward seems like the obvious pick, we know Oath Spells can already include spells available to the class and an always prepared Death Ward is very on brand for a chosen hero.

Overall, I'm not a fan of the direction the theme was taken. The subclass, mechanically though, is undeniably strong. Despite the fact that I dislike Mighty Deed I would pay good money to my DM if he let me borrow it.

EDIT: Thinking more on why I have a problem with the Oath of Heroism, it seems like an aggressive and selfish oath. Mighty Deed is at least a bit helpful in that you can use it to give THP to allies but some part of me expects it to be used more often as a fear nuke.

It doesn't really meet my expectation of a chosen Hero, too many selfish traits. I guess with that in mind, my problems would probably be lessened (or gone) if it just wasn't called Oath of Heroism.

[Fnissalot]

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.


Ah crap you're right, Mighty Deed fails the Bag O' Rats test. C'mon WotC, you can do better than that.

You could argue that the rats would go against the tenants? Crushing rats instead of fighting real enemies does not gone your body, nor is it a very heroic action.

[Arkhios]

Haven't had the time and/or patience to analyze/comment either subclass integrity and balance, but let's take a look at the big picture:

Does anyone have any idea if any (if not all) of the subclasses from the three latest UA's would fit into any one setting (even if it doesn't have a hard cover yet)?

I really doubt any of these would make it into Rising From the Last War (RFtLW or RLW?) because that book already has a commercial pitch, but there's no reason they wouldn't be up to something else.

I have personal issues with the Oath of Heroism, namely that the 7th level feature isn't an Aura. Oath of Vengeance already breaks that standard, being the only paladin subclass in print (this includes Oathbreaker and Xanathars) that doesn't gain an additional aura at 7th level. To me, Aura effects seem like the standard level 7 ability. Vengeance is enough of an oddball already, I'd hate to encourage more of that.

FWIW, Oath of the Crown has no 7th-level aura either, so "Avenger" isn't the only one without. I really wouldn't base any arguments on what's standard or not on the grounds that Avenger (1 of 3 original oaths) doesn't have a feature, when in total there are two official oaths to "break the standard" (that isn't officially admitted fact)

[Nhorianscum]

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

[Kane0]

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

As in broken OP?

[ProsecutorGodot]

FWIW, Oath of the Crown has no 7th-level aura either, so "Avenger" isn't the only one without. I really wouldn't base any arguments on what's standard or not on the grounds that Avenger (1 of 3 original oaths) doesn't have a feature, when in total there are two official oaths to "break the standard" (that isn't officially admitted fact)

First, disappointed in myself for missing Oath of the Crown and Second, I was clear that the Aura idea was a very opinionated point of view of mine. I'd still say that 5/7 having an aura effect at 7th level is setting a bit of a precedent.

My take on Vengeance is more in line with my edit. Vengeance is a selfish subclass but it doesn't try to disguise that, it's meant to embody it. The more I think about it the more my problem is simply with the name. I might just have a different view of the "heroic ideal" but if you're a hero your focus should be about helping others and being your best self, not entirely focused on the latter.

It's a little bit too much "I am special and you will watch me succeed" for my tastes. This could just be me putting to much of my own interests on it, maybe it's just fine but not for me. "Heroism" is more broad than I give it credit for, the most simple definition boiling down to "brave and admirable" which fits this just fine.

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

It's a bonus action to activate (rare for a Paladin capstone) and gives players Legendary Resistance on a reaction, it can't be that bad.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

May have something to do with Heroism being a paladin spell already.

[ProsecutorGodot]

May have something to do with Heroism being a paladin spell already.

Command and Protection from Evil and Good are a few 1st level Oath Spells that are also being found on the class spell list. Redemption, Ancients and Oathbreaker are the only ones with no Paladin spells in their oath spell list.

6 of the 10 spells in the Oath of Crowns list are Paladin spells.

[Kane0]

6 of the 10 spells in the Oath of Crowns list are Paladin spells.

One more reason that poor subclass could use a do-over.

[AdAstra]

I think they could afford to make Mighty Deed require a hostile creature and be useable once per short rest and still have a solid oath, capable of supporting and bashing heads in equal measure. Luckily, it's in UA, so they have at least one more chance to nail down the balance. As much as I tore it apart, I really like the concept, and the mechanics are creative and solid, they're just a little too strong, mainly the 7th and 15th level abilities.

College of Eloquence seems simultaneously a nice take on the Bard, reliant on oratory and not music, but also easy to make into the most insufferable character possible. All the same, kinda gives off similar vibes to Planescape's "you can debate someone out of existence" thing. I don't think it's as strong as Heroism, but still on the more powerful side on a class that again, is on the upper end of power already. You can vastly improve the efficiency of your Bardic Inspiration at high levels, but I think that's offset by the arguably stronger other uses. I think the "int save or get disadvantage for a small cost" is actually one of the better ways that they've handled this issue, definitely better-balanced than Mind Sliver. I am concerned that it stacks with MS, but that's more the cantrip's problem than the ability's. Overall, I like it, and if it's stronger than it should be, it's only by a little bit. Doesn't outright beat Lore Bard, that's for sure.

I should have mentioned earlier, overall, I think they did really well with this one! I also think it's worth mentioning that the past three UAs have been delivered within two weeks of each other! I think that's worth commending, and overall, these have all been pretty solid concepts. These last two especially feel almost publication ready. I think that deserves some positivity.

[HappyDaze]

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

It's not a big deal since all the optimizers have levels of Sorcerer too.

[rbstr]

Compared feature-to-feature I think Hero paly isn't the powercreep we've seen in some classes:
Spells are ok/good, channel divinity is stronger than Ancients (what isn't? such a lame CD) but in line or actually less strong than Sacred Weapon.
Level 7...should be an aura IMO, but whatever, it's not stronger than halving magic damage on yourself and others.
Level 15, better than "choose to not die once a day" or permanent protection from evil and good? maybe-ish? (really love this parry/riposte feature, I think it should actually be on a fighter weaponmaster/duelist class)
Level 20, very strong, but not any more so than the other paly capstones which are all incredibly strong. EXCEPT, it's a bonus action to use, instead of an action.

[Dork_Forge]

Overall I actually quite like the College of Eloquence, doesn't seem too strong whilst offering alternative uses for Bardic Inspiration dice and filling a diplomat role.

The Oath of Heroism I don't like at all, cramming Champion features into channel divinities feels like it takes away from that subclass whilst yielding unsatisfying CD options. There's already three other sublcasses in 5e that give expanded crit ranges (that I can think of at least, and one IS a Paladin) and you're spending your CD for a passive effect that might not even come up. The spell list seems mostly okay, I like guiding bolt and haste on there but no idea how Enthrall fits the theme of heroism? Mighty Deed seems very strong, both control and buff options in an unlimited use ability that should trigger enough for it to become a problem. Personally I'd just drop the fear aspect and treat it like you're inspiring your comrades, fear doesn't really fit the upstanding hero theme. Glorious Defence is cool, it's essentially a better version of Defensive Duelist but fits better on a Fighter subclass than a Paladin imo. Living Myth is also over the top, triggers on a BA, legendary resistance on a reaction and what counts as a one per rest captsone for a Rogue is every turn within a ten minute window in a feature that grants two other benefits?

If Heroism does see publication I hope it gets changed (and nerfed), at the moment it's just silly and counterintuitive to it's own themes.

[AdAstra]

Compared feature-to-feature I think Hero paly isn't the powercreep we've seen in some classes:
Spells are ok/good, channel divinity is stronger than Ancients (what isn't? such a lame CD) but in line or actually less strong than Sacred Weapon.
Level 7...should be an aura IMO, but whatever, it's not stronger than halving magic damage on yourself and others.
Level 15, better than "choose to not die once a day" or permanent protection from evil and good? maybe-ish? (really love this parry/riposte feature, I think it should actually be on a fighter weaponmaster/duelist class)
Level 20, very strong, but not any more so than the other paly capstones which are all incredibly strong. EXCEPT, it's a bonus action to use, instead of an action.

-Ah, forgot about Sacred Weapon, but the action cost of it is a real killer. Also the expanded crit range, while probably weaker in a vacuum, becomes far more powerful the more things you stack it with. Advantage is not hard to get, and if you pick up Elven Accuracy, you can have a ~27% chance of a crit per attack. Smites will spike your crit damage through the roof, and the crits will activate Mighty Deed.

-I would argue that Mighty Deed is stronger than Aura of Warding in all but the most spell-heavy games (note the damage resistance only applies to damage from spells, not all magic damage). The aura is restricted in range, and Paladins do best in melee, so there will be many situations where people will be outside it. Mighty Deed has the same range as an 18th level paladin's aura, and once someone's received the temp HP they don't have to stay in it. And even if everyone in range already has THP, you can still give enemies fear, which causes disadvantage on their attacks. Damage from spells is only a small (in most games) subset of the damage players will take, so I think long-term, Mighty Deed will probably prevent more damage.

-Not dying once a day is certainly good, but half-orcs can get that as just one of their racial abilities. It just doesn't compare to either of the other two options. Again, just like the Ancients Aura, Protection from Evil and Good is amazing, but only in situations where it applies. It probably applies more often than the aura, but still less than being able to turn any attack into a miss and counterattack. Once again, I feel that Glorious Defense will probably prevent more grief in the long run, as well as providing a hefty boost to your DPS.

-Can't argue much with the capstone. If it's ahead of other ones at all, it's only by a little.

The problem with the Oath of Heroism isn't that there's one crazy ability, it's that unlike other Oaths, there's nowhere that it really falls short. There are next to no situations where it won't be able to bring all of its abilities to bear, and they're all really strong abilities.
Ancients has a garbage CD, and middling everything else except for the Aura, which only achieves its potential if your DM throws a decent number of damage-slinging spellcasters at you.
Devotion has strong CDs, and situational but near-brokenly good 7th and 15th level abilities, but the spells are pretty bleh, and the CDs require a full action, and thus have a heavy opportunity cost in combat. Plus again, dependent on what things your DM throws at you, though less so than with Ancients.
Vengeance, which is generally considered the strongest PHB Oath (I would contest that personally), has CDs that are not the best, but extremely dependable against high-priority targets, especially Vow of Emnity. The spells are incredible, but the 7th level feature is meh unless you build for it (in which case it can be really strong), and the 15th level feature, while powerful, is tied to Vow, which limits it heavily.
Conquest comes very very close. Its CDs and spells are extremely solid, and reinforce each other to be amazing in combination with the aura. The 15th level feature is also good, and the capstone is arguably the strongest of any paladin. It does however, run into the issue of the Aura needing limited spells and CD uses to be of any use, and a great deal of the class being useless against fear-immune creatures. That resource constraint is especially impactful for Paladins, who can already burn through their resources at frightening speed if they're not careful.

EDIT: Also, to Dork_Forge, I think Enthrall is probably meant as like, distracting the target with tales of your heroic deeds? Along the lines of "So I was walking in the forest, and this HUGE dragon...and anyway, that's why I always carry my forks in my pants pocket"

[Benny89]

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that. Or multiclass but then it kind of sucks in non-multiclass setting. I think Devotion and Vengeance are still better combat option.

2. It's combat subclass but it has no way to increase accuracy so it's much worse with GWM than Devotion or Vengeance who can get bonus to hit or advantage to off-set GWM. Heroism doesn't have any and I will argue that chance to hit > chance to crit.

3. It clearly says about scuplting your body etc. and focus on physical aspect of Paladin, yet all features get bonuses from Charisma modifier so Charismas ASI will still be way more important (Mighty Deed, Glorious Defense, Aura of Protection). I would say that Heroism needs to focus on CHA more than Vengeance where you could go for STR over Cha quite easy. I think they didn't think it through.

4. Mighty Deed seems great if you think about scoring critical hits with expanded crit- but you need advantage first, otherwise that crit chance is not really that impressive and you will probably only use it when you reduce enemy to 0, which might be funny fighting horde of weak enemies but in combat with stronger one- won't be used at all. Imo way weaker than perma-effects of Devotion, Ancients etc.

Well, if it goes as it seems it will be mandatory to dip 3 levels of Hexblade for Darkness + Devil Sight combo with half-elf to crit fish all day.

[DeTess]

Oath of Heroism sounds like the chosen of those fickle, dickish Greek gods.

This is an interesting catch actually, because the bard sub-class also fits into a classical Greece theme with the focus on debate and reason.

[Fnissalot]

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that. Or multiclass but then it kind of sucks in non-multiclass setting. I think Devotion and Vengeance are still better combat option.

2. It's combat subclass but it has no way to increase accuracy so it's much worse with GWM than Devotion or Vengeance who can get bonus to hit or advantage to off-set GWM. Heroism doesn't have any and I will argue that chance to hit > chance to crit.

3. It clearly says about scuplting your body etc. and focus on physical aspect of Paladin, yet all features get bonuses from Charisma modifier so Charismas ASI will still be way more important (Mighty Deed, Glorious Defense, Aura of Protection). I would say that Heroism needs to focus on CHA more than Vengeance where you could go for STR over Cha quite easy. I think they didn't think it through.

4. Mighty Deed seems great if you think about scoring critical hits with expanded crit- but you need advantage first, otherwise that crit chance is not really that impressive and you will probably only use it when you reduce enemy to 0, which might be funny fighting horde of weak enemies but in combat with stronger one- won't be used at all. Imo way weaker than perma-effects of Devotion, Ancients etc.

Well, if it goes as it seems it will be mandatory to dip 3 levels of Hexblade for Darkness + Devil Sight combo with half-elf to crit fish all day.

Sculpting or honing your body could mean building it to be visual perfection (ie charisma), not actually being strong or enduring, or from RP standpoint flexing and walking in place instead of sitting on the couch.

This is an interesting catch actually, because the bard sub-class also fits into a classical Greece theme with the focus on debate and reason.

That is why it will be great when people start running odyssey of the dragonlords.

[jaappleton]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

[Arkhios]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

*pushes eyeglasses up the nose* "But it's not balanced with others!"

In other words ....yeah. I agree. Complaining about something you get at 20th level (especially considering everyone still has all the other features from previous levels on top of that) is ridiculous.

[Dork_Forge]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

Exclusively about the 20th level feature? No. On top of the rest of the subclass? Yes.

20th level features sure can be crazy, but there's no reason for it to take a BA when all other Oath capstones (that are a super mode) require an action and it's arguably up there with the best of the Paladin capstones (whilst stepping on the Rogue's capstone toes).

[AdAstra]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

As far as I can tell, it's the least of the subclass's problems, and I don't think anyone's been complaining about it all that much in comparison to other things. If they have, it's probably because it allows you to do things that in general, you just can't do, much less for one minute per long rest as a bonus action. Auto-succeeding on saving throws is, as far as I'm aware, entirely unique to this subclass. The closest equivalent is like, Diviners substituting their own saves. The only thing I can remember that matches the auto-hit is the Swashbuckler's lvl. 17 ability and Stroke of Luck at Rogue 20. And at least in theory, you can get a lot more free saves/auto-hits per long rest with Living Myth. Again, I agree with you, it's not all that much, and I think most people feel the same way, but if I'm wrong about the second thing, that's probably why, in addition to what Dork_Forge said. It's just one more great thing on top of a bunch more great things.