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Thread: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
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2010-11-27, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
OK, Barbarian is pretty high at tier 4, dealing the buttloads of damage we know they can do and intimidating everyone around, with that much hp and all.
But with the trapkiller alternate class feature, the Barbarian actually has 3 areas he now shines at:
1. Combat
2. Intimidation
3. Finding/"disarming" traps
Is this enough for tier 3? It seems more flexible than, say, a Warblade.
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2010-11-27, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Really? I heard it was low tier 4 while the fighter was high tier 5 when it was discussed why they were different tiers.
So I don't know if that would be enough to make it tier 3, probably more mid-to-high tier 4.
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2010-11-27, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Nah. Low 4 to high 4
Still no stealth. Still only half detection. Still no "other" utility.Gitp's No. 1 Cake hater
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2010-11-27, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-27, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-27, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
But this is just within combat. A Barbarian already shines in combat, by dealing more damage than a Warblade.
A Warblade might fight with more options and that alone is enough for a tier of difference (like Wizard x Sorcerer) if all other choices are equal. But it's the Barbarian who has more options here. In a social encounter, a Warblade can at best try to intimidate as a standard action - and he probably won't be that good at it. A Barbarian probably has Intimidate maxed and has feats related to it, like Intimidating Rage. Against a trap, a Warblade can't find it and even if he knows where it is, his best bet is breaking everything around with a Stone Dragon maneuver (a Barbarian could do the same, it would only take more time). The Barbarian can find the trap and can disarm the trap properly by breaking it.
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2010-11-27, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
I consider warblades tier 4.
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2010-11-27, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Sometimes Tier 3 is about in-combat options rather than out of combat options. Warblades simply have more versatility in combat. Barbarians have to sink a lot more resources in to deal with unusual situations, and as such can't cover the kind of range of tactical abilities that Warblades can. Trapfinding+good damage is also a feature of the optimized Rogue, a solid Tier 4. You need multiple in-combat options (more than just two) to get Tier 3 unless you're stellar out of combat.
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2010-11-27, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Barbarians that are well-optimized to do intimidate, axe and trapkill are at the very top of Tier 4. The trapkilling is at -5 compared to the Rogue, and can't solve magical traps or traps that you can't break, which is pretty lame. Intimidate is shut down my enemies immune to fear. So you're really left with only one good option - axe.
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2010-11-27, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-28, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Tier 3 is about combat options and diversity with some out of combat strength. That's why wildshape ranger is 3 and normal ranger is 4. Normal ranger has stealth, detection, tracking, healing, minions, and other; but it's mostly lame and repetitive in combat.
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2010-11-28, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
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2010-11-28, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
I also don't get why people think Barbarians have so much better damage than Warblades. A pumped up maneuver routine can easily out-damage a Barbarian's rage, even with something as simple as Punishing Stance + Emerald Razor + Power Attack, and higher level maneuvers only get better.
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2010-11-28, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-28, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
An optimized full attack routine will outdamage almost any single-attack strike combo- you could, for example, be comparing the Emerald Razor combo to a Whirling Frenzy Pouncing Barbarian that gets to attack twice. And then as he levels picks up Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, and gets Hasted, so now he charges people and makes 3 attacks at full BAB with heavy Power Attack at 3:1 returns.. what's the Warblade doing? Well, he can try to do the same thing, but he doesn't have the rage or the pounce, and it'll be some levels yet before he gets the maneuvers that give him a lot of extra attacks, so he mostly falls behind the Barbarian's damage output. (It does even back up at high levels when you can do some silly things with things like Time Stands Still, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Raging Mongoose, and the Stormguard Warrior feat, but the Barbarian still usually has an edge and doesn't need to take a turn out to recover his maneuvers from time to time.)
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2010-11-28, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Whirling Frenzy and Pounce? That's hardly standard barbarian fare. You have to compare equivalent levels of optimization. As you said, the Warblade can pick up Leap Attack as well, and even though he doesn't have pounce, he does have stuff like Battle Leader's Charge -> White Raven Tactics -> Soaring Raptor Strike (or plain old Emerald Razor if the opponent isn't large). And he can do this all before the Barbarian even qualifies for Shock Trooper (unless the barb took flaws). The Barb gets the edge at level 6 if he took Lion Spirit Totem, but the Warblade gets pounce at 9th anyway, so it's really not that big of a difference. The Warblade also has extra bonus feats to fuel these crazy charge shenanigans, giving him the ability to grab something ridiculous like Battle Jump or Stormguard Warrior in addition to Leap Attack and Shock Trooper.
Basically, I think Barbarians do have an edge on damage, but only if you're going into pretty high optimization. (also, warblades don't need to take a turn to recharge their maneuvers, they just have to not use them in one turn, but they can still whack people)
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2010-11-28, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
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2010-11-28, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
The size of the enemy is of no consequence for Soaring Raptor Strike.
Originally Posted by Soaring Raptor StrikePouncing Strike isn't quite the same as Pounce. For one, it can't be used as a Standard Action.
Pounce: You may make a full attack on a charge.
Pouncing Charge: You make a full attack on a charge.
What are you talking about? Where are you getting a Standard Action from?
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2010-11-28, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
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2010-11-28, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Just because the Barbarian doesn't have Shock Trooper doesn't invalidate his Pounce. Until 9th level, the Warblade has to walk like a sucker while the Barbarian charges and full-attacks to his heart's content.
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2010-11-28, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
But both take full round actions, you can't use either of them when you are surprised or slowed.
Yes, for three levels, the barbarian has more DPS on a charge. Whoop-de-doo. The Warblade can still use Sudden Leap + Full Attack, or any standard action maneuvers when he moves.Last edited by Tael; 2010-11-28 at 01:05 PM.
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2010-11-28, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-11-28, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-28, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-28, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
Barbarians or fighters with pounce and a bunch of power attack feats having ridiculous damage has long been a staple of 3.5, to the point where it becomes cheese. That doesn't actually make them interesting to play >.<
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2010-11-28, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-28, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
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2010-11-28, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?
I wouldn't say just nine as well. With equal levels of optimization, I'm pretty sure Barbarian will always come out ahead on the damage department.
At higher levels of optimization, with Time Stands Still spamming, Warblade might come out ahead, but nothing in the game survives the Barbarian's damage at this level anyway, so the Warblade's upgrade is kind of pointless.
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2010-11-28, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-28, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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