Feeling a bit ripped off by the 4th preview...

[Grynning]

So, after reading a bit about it here and on other forums, I decided to go pick this thing up and run it so we could get a sense of how to play 4th when it comes out. I was a bit taken aback at the price when I saw it at the store, 30 bucks is about what you'd pay for a full hardbound source book. So imagine my further dismay when I opened it up to find that the module is published on STAPLED TOGETHER MAGAZINE PAGES with NO %^#&*$ COVER.

Seriously? I know that's how the old D&D modules were back in the day, but considering I just dropped the equivalent of a meal, a six pack and a couple packs of smokes on this thing I expected a bit more.

Yes, the maps look good, the content seems ok and although I find myself wishing for rules clarifications already, I know it's only a preview, and hopefully the full version of the game will clear up any fuzziness. But I really wish WotC had bound the books in some way. I mean, I picked up my comics at the store at the same time I bought this thing. 4 or 5 comics stacked together would be about the same thickness as the two books in the set, and actually, looking at it, are on better quality paper. The comics are about 3 bucks each. I don't think that a set of maps and a little cardboard box are worth 15 more dollars.

I dunno, maybe I'm getting the old people "shocked by inflation" syndrome, but was anyone else let down by the printing quality?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nope. From those who have played it, KoS is apparently barrels of fun. Don't judge a book by its cover.

[Tengu]

Don't judge a book by its cover.

Or lack thereof.

[Grynning]

I'm not judging the content here, I'm just saying that they could have at least given us a book that will be able to survive outside of a slipcover for a few years.

I mean, I know they're the company that made it big gouging people for playing cards (myself included) but even cheap-o companies put binding on their supplements.

Also, I've played plenty of adventures that were barrels of fun that didn't cost 30 dollars. Don't judge fun by price.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Don't judge fun by price.

Your attempt at countering fails, because I didn't even mention price. Rather, I asplained how it is apparently enormously fun.

[leperkhaun]

I dont think its a big deal. Its something that is not meant to last. They put it together to give people a hint of how 4E will go, and it will be obsolete once the core books come out.

By then people wont need the preview anymore. Id rather not spend 2-3x as much for something ill use just a couple times with my friends to decide how i like where 4E is going.

There really isnt a reason to keep it, outside of 5 years down the line bieng able to go.... "yup this here is the 4E preview...you lads dont got nothing like this, but i do, yup." or if you collect these types of things, but if you do that, getting a binder or something isnt a hassle.

[Grynning]

I dont think its a big deal. Its something that is not meant to last. They put it together to give people a hint of how 4E will go, and it will be obsolete once the core books come out.

By then people wont need the preview anymore. Id rather not spend 2-3x as much for something ill use just a couple times with my friends to decide how i like where 4E is going.

There really isnt a reason to keep it, outside of 5 years down the line bieng able to go.... "yup this here is the 4E preview...you lads dont got nothing like this, but i do, yup." or if you collect these types of things, but if you do that, getting a binder or something isnt a hassle.

If you're accepting that the thing is meant to be thrown away, how is it justified that it costs as much as a hardbound book that isn't?

I feel as if I'm being mis-understood here - I'm not saying it's not a good adventure, or that there's anything wrong with releasing a 4th edition preview adventure, and I'm fairly certain we'll have fun with it. What I'm saying is, I don't think the price was justified, given the cheap quality of the printing. If I'd known I was essentially getting an issue of Dragon, I wouldn't have dropped 30 bucks on it.

Edit: @AK - what I was trying to say is that how much something costs usually has little to do with how much fun it is. That's all.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Well, see, apparently that things ISN'T an issue of dragon. It seems really small, but according to reports, it takes a ton of sessions to finish. Which is probably the reason it is so pricey.

[SamTheCleric]

Our GM pulled it apart carefully and put it into a binder with the plastic sleeves... no rubbing off of ink, adds a hardcover... and he can use a wet/dry erase marker on parts that he needs to make notes...

The CONTENT is worth the 30 dollar price tag... the quality leaves something to be desired, but easily fixed with an extra $2 at office depot.

[Grynning]

There's a total of 96 pages in there. That's 24 sheets, folded in half, printed on both sides. One page of each booklet is the "cover" so that's 94 pages of material, on magazine stock. What I am saying is that there is no way it cost WotC more to print than an issue of a magazine would.

I don't care how long it takes to play. I don't care what's in that booklet. It could be the best adventure I've ever seen.

Why the hell are they charging 30 bucks for it? Is there a tiny bag of China White stashed in a secret compartment in the box somewhere? Are there secret plans for a fusion generator encoded into the text?

It's a cheaply printed goddam BOOKLET hidden in a box that looks like it should have a well-made product in it. That's what I'm pissed about.

[Tengu]

You know, remember it's Wizards we're talking about here. Just because 4e is good doesn't mean that they've suddenly changed their creed, which is, as Rutee puts it, "hoo boy, we sure do like money".

[Azerian Kelimon]

There's a total of 96 pages in there. That's 24 sheets, folded in half, printed on both sides. One page of each booklet is the "cover" so that's 94 pages of material, on magazine stock. What I am saying is that there is no way it cost WotC more to print than an issue of a magazine would.

I don't care how long it takes to play. I don't care what's in that booklet. It could be the best adventure I've ever seen.

Why the hell are they charging 30 bucks for it? Is there a tiny bag of China White stashed in a secret compartment in the box somewhere? Are there secret plans for a fusion generator encoded into the text?

It's a cheaply printed goddam BOOKLET hidden in a box that looks like it should have a well-made product in it. That's what I'm pissed about.

The content, as far as I can guess. Which would make sense, up to a point.

Edit: Tengu, it's actually "Boy howdy we sure do like money."

[Tengu]

Yeah, I knew I got it wrong. It's me who says "hoo boy" a lot. Must've picked it up from Cloud.

[Grynning]

The content, as far as I can guess. Which would make sense, up to a point.

Edit: Tengu, it's actually "Boy howdy we sure do like money."

/sigh...I suppose expecting a company to take pride in how they package their product was my mistake. Guess I'm just an unenlightened grognard because I'm not willing to chop my arms off to buy 4th edition.

[Trog]

The lack of covers does, indeed, suck. Regardless of price. I'm in printing and I thought it was something they decided to cheaply crank out. Content awesome but they should spring for better covers next time. No need to put a crap cover on gold material.

[Gorbash]

Fight fire with fire - download it illegally.

[Rutee]

Hehehe.

No matter how good it is though, I just can't see being satisfied if I pay for it. It's a flipping preview. Every other company gives those out for free. Only WotC has the audacity to make us pay for preview material.

[Last_resort_33]

It only costs around 2 cents to produce a CD, so why can you pay 4k for a piece of software?

not only do you have pay people to print it, but to actually write it also, as well as artwork, and most importantly play testing. you have to rigorously test a module like a computer program, unlike any old bit of fluff or throw away adventure that you stick in a magazine.

And of course wizards huge profit.

[Aquillion]

Because charging $30 for it not only makes them more money, but also ensures that the only people who play it are diehard fans interested in the new edition who are, therefore, the ones most inclined to give it rave reviews.

(I'm not knocking its fun value, mind you. But the price ensures it a friendly audience... if it was free, you'd get a lot more suspicious-of-4th-edition types playing it out of curiousity, and much more critical reviews.)

But also, as Last_resort_33 says, this is probably one of the most heavily playtested modules (well, mini-modules) WotC has produced in years. After all, it is really, really important that this thing be well-received, and some of that comes down to the design of the adventure itself rather than the system. So in that respect the price makes a certain amount of sense.

Nobody cares if you make an occasional bad issue of Dragon magazine, so you can usually have some interns knock something off and call it a day. If this thing was badly-received, though, it could be a disaster, so they had to actually invest serious money in producing and playtesting it. They can recoup some of that by making it using inexpensive materials and charging a fairly large amount.

[Grynning]

It only costs around 2 cents to produce a CD, so why can you pay 4k for a piece of software?

not only do you have pay people to print it, but to actually write it also, as well as artwork, and most importantly play testing. you have to rigorously test a module like a computer program, unlike any old bit of fluff or throw away adventure that you stick in a magazine.

See, I was under the impression that the preview adventure was something that they had already been using in the 4th edition playtesting anyways. Yes, lots of development goes into RPG's, and I will pay $40 bucks for a rulebook, because I know how much work goes into creating one. If this adventure is essentially a by-product of 4th ed. development, though, then they shouldn't be charging this much. As Rutee points out, it's essentially a promotional, which are often freely available. Would you pay almost the full price of a video game for a 3 hour long demo?

[Zorg]

...a box that looks like it should have a well-made product in it. That's what I'm pissed about.

I'm not sure what the box looks like, but if it's a full colour job that's where the cost could be - packaging like that can be suprisingly expensive depending on the production run.

[TwystidMynd]

See, I was under the impression that the preview adventure was something that they had already been using in the 4th edition playtesting anyways. Yes, lots of development goes into RPG's, and I will pay $40 bucks for a rulebook, because I know how much work goes into creating one. If this adventure is essentially a by-product of 4th ed. development, though, then they shouldn't be charging this much. As Rutee points out, it's essentially a promotional, which are often freely available. Would you pay almost the full price of a video game for a 3 hour long demo?

Well, if that demo instead, provided me with over 20 hours of gameplay, I might feel more justified in paying "almost full price."

This Saturday, my group (DM + 5 players) played Keep on the Shadowfell for 13 hours. According to our DM, we're almost halfway through, so I assume we have at least 7 more hours to go (hence the "20 hour" number I dropped).

I agree that $30 is expensive, and that magazine-quality paper seems cheap. I'm not in printing, so I don't know the specifics, but I do know that the prices of magazines are usually supplemented by ads printed on their pages; this module doesn't have any of those (that I'm aware of; I haven't actually read it, since that'd spoil my fun =P ), so the cost is likely to be slightly higher than a standard 96-page magazine.
Additionally, the module comes with a number of full-color double-sided high-quality (hyper-hyphenated) maps, which I'm sure also add to the cost.

Of course, I doubt that all of these material expenses add up to a total of $30.00, but you've also got a lot of intellectual property wrapped up in the package. As Last_resort_33 mentioned, intellectual property can be very highly valued (or at least highly priced), so perhaps that's where the extra $10-$20 comes from?
Or maybe it's to ensure they recoup expenses from the rigorous development and playtesting?
Or maybe it's got a steeper price to ensure only fans buy it, as Aquillion suggests?
Perhaps my expectations are just lower, but I've got no huge problem with the material the module is printed on.

And as an aside, there are a lot of people viewing this as a throw-away module that won't be used after there are "better" modules out there... but to me it seems like this is a full-blown module, as complete as any of the original Gygaxian Underdark-series modules, that they expect to be the first in a long storyline. It just happens to also have some quickstart rules in it.
As with any venture, WotC may fail at making this a memorable module, but it certainly seems like they're trying to make this a meaningful, long-lasting module.

[Charity]

I guess I'm just forgetting the povety of youth or something..
but it's about £11 on Amazon, that's about the price of two packets of ciggies... or two cheap bottles of wine, or a meal for two at KFC, in fact it's cheaper than two cinema tickets.

Yes they could have improved the production value at little extra cost, and if the print comes off on your hands well that is pretty crappy but really £11 it ain't exactly silly money.

[Rutee]

I guess I'm just forgetting the povety of youth or something..
but it's about £11 on Amazon, that's about the price of two packets of ciggies... or two cheap bottles of wine, or a meal for two at KFC, in fact it's cheaper than two cinema tickets.

Yes they could have improved the production value at little extra cost, and if the print comes off on your hands well that is pretty crappy but really £11 it ain't exactly silly money.

Well, it's not about cost for once. It's about paying for promotional materials. It's the same problem I have with T-shirts that have a logo on them. I could afford it, easily, but that wouldn't change the fact that I'm paying for previews. It's like charging for a trailer.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Would you pay almost the full price of a video game for a 3 hour long demo?

Is it a full adventure or 1/4 of one? If it's a full adventure, it's more like a video game expansion pack than a 3 hour long demo (which people do pay 30-50$ for depending on the game). If it's a preview of the actual adventure (like chapter 1 of 5), then it's definately not worth the 30$.

Besides, we all know that the costs are getting higher to make up for the rampant P2P sharing of PDF scans

[Grynning]

I guess I'm just forgetting the poverty of youth or something...

It's not exactly poverty that motivates me, just good old fashioned stinginess. I expect more for my money. Obviously, I was willing to pay for the module, because it's sitting on my table now and I'm planning on running it tonight, but overall I'm still disappointed with it.

And on a side note, cigarettes and movies are expensive where you are! If £11 is the equivalent to $30, that means your paying $15 for a pack of smokes or a movie ticket....that's insane (Cigs are about $5-6 a pack here in Texas, movie tickets are about $9). I'd feel bad for ya, but then again, your currency is kicking the crap out of ours right now, so enjoy that

[Rutee]

Besides, we all know that the costs are getting higher to make up for the rampant P2P sharing of PDF scans

Well, no. They're going up because the dollar is growing weaker. That and the cost of /everything/ is going up in these parts :P

that and just because it's a published, finished module doesn't change what I expect cost wise, because it's still a preview. Again, I can download the quickstart for WoD, or Exalted, or WotG, or Scion, for absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter how much work you put into promotional materials; They're promotional. You don't make people pay to advertise to them.

Well, you do if you're WotC. See: Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters.

[Grynning]

It doesn't matter how much work you put into promotional materials; They're promotional. You don't make people pay to advertise to them.

Well, you do if you're WotC. See: Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters.

See, I did NOT pay for those. At least Keep on the Shadowfell is something you can play.

[Charity]

Well, it's not about cost for once. It's about paying for promotional materials. It's the same problem I have with T-shirts that have a logo on them. I could afford it, easily, but that wouldn't change the fact that I'm paying for previews. It's like charging for a trailer.

How about a Lotus Elise with the lotus badge on the front?
You arn't buying a bumper sticker here it is the fully fledged product.

on a side note, cigarettes and movies are expensive where you are! If £11 is the equivalent to $30, that means your paying $15 for a pack of smokes or a movie ticket....that's insane (Cigs are about $5-6 a pack here in Texas, movie tickets are about $9). I'd feel bad for ya, but then again, your currency is kicking the crap out of ours right now, so enjoy that

11.00 GBP = 21.7203 USD Amazon prices for KotS
10.8611 USD for ciggies
10.2204 USD for 1 gallon of petrol
14.8148 USD for 1 cinema ticket
So yeah it ain't cheep here

@V Rutee, the adventure is the first of 9 in an adventure path it is not a stand alone quick start adventure.

[Rutee]

How about a Lotus Elise with the lotus badge on the front?
You arn't buying a bumper sticker here it is the fully fledged product.

As are the quickstart adventures of other companies, made to promote the game. They just happen to be free, because they're promotional.