Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Chei]

Just his fast movement, AC, flurry of blows, and Evasion, assuming the Monk levels aren't high enough to give him anything else. To me, Evasion is the big one, since we know he uses it in armor and his two ring slots are known quantities, so he can't just be wearing a Ring of Evasion to make it up.

[Quartz]

Just his fast movement, AC, flurry of blows, and Evasion, assuming the Monk levels aren't high enough to give him anything else. To me, Evasion is the big one, since we know he uses it in armor and his two ring slots are known quantities, so he can't just be wearing a Ring of Evasion to make it up.

A multiclass monk can still use Evasion if he's wearing light armour. Note that mithril armour is one category lighter than normal, so mithril breastplate (+5 AC) is light armour, as is elven chain. In strip 849 we see that his armour is glamoured so we cannot count on its depiction to be true.

Alternatively, he could have taken the Epic feat allowing him an extra ring.

[Chei]

A multiclass monk can still use Evasion if he's wearing light armour. Note that mithril armour is one category lighter than normal, so mithril breastplate (+5 AC) is light armour, as is elven chain. In strip 849 we see that his armour is glamoured so we cannot count on its depiction to be true.

Alternatively, he could have taken the Epic feat allowing him an extra ring.

Ooh, I didn't notice that, but you're right. Interesting that Evasion has a light armor exception for monks; I just assumed it worked like all of their other encumbrance-related restrictions. I guess that explains Miko's use of it as well. That plus the ease with which Tarquin could acquire mithril medium armor does point him towards being a monk, yes.

Incidentally, Tarquin has Snatch Arrows, which isn't a bonus feat for monk. I'm not sure how age penalties work with feats, but he must have qualified for it at some point in his life to take it. This raises his minimum Dex to 15 assuming he still needs the minimum to use the feat at all.

[Quartz]

Monk can actually be a very good multiclass option for a fighter or knight: you gain lots of benefits when out of armour, and have lots of defensive abilities when in armour. All for the cost of a few points of BAB and 1 HP per level. It helps if you think of the monk as a disciplined warrior rather than a kung fu master.

[E-102 Hanako]

Incidentally, Tarquin has Snatch Arrows, which isn't a bonus feat for monk. I'm not sure how age penalties work with feats, but he must have qualified for it at some point in his life to take it. This raises his minimum Dex to 15 assuming he still needs the minimum to use the feat at all.

I'd like to think Tarqy-man qualifies for both Stunning Fist and Snatch Arrows from having high DEX (and high WIS regarding Stunning Fist) anyway, at least on account of the fact he has to have a high enough AC to pull off all the defensive stunts which allow him to take on Talky-man and his friends all at once.

[Chei]

Well, like I said, he must have 15+ Dex because Snatch Arrows is not a bonus feat for Monks; only Deflect Arrows is. He has to qualify for it on his own merits.

As for the Wisdom, there are a few other points in favor of that being moderate-high other than Stunning Fist: he was able to resist Durkon's Hold Person, meaning he has a decent Will save, he's old, and he has a good enough Spot check to overcome Haley's Hide roll.

[E-102 Hanako]

On a differently-related note similar to the one about Tarqy-man...

Strength is apparently Thog's best ability score, which means whatever number we have estimated for his Strength is a presumed hard cap for the possible range of his Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma. That isn't to say that Thog didn't increase his Wisdom (which is the closest mental score to his Genre Savvyness) in the interim between his various fights with the Order of the Stick, although he is a lot more self-aware about himself than what an 8 INT allows either. Of course, it's not known if he's on the same level as Roy or higher.

I remembered to keep an eye on Thog specifically because Tarqy-man said he was alive, which means he isn't deceased.

[ti'esar]

Technically, Tarquin didn't say Thog was alive - he said they wouldn't know until he was dug out from under the rubble. The wording of his later refusal to work with Thog implies he's alive, but this is a D&D setting, so death would actually be a surmountable obstacle compared to Tarquin's real objections.

[Chei]

A multiclass monk can still use Evasion if he's wearing light armour. Note that mithril armour is one category lighter than normal, so mithril breastplate (+5 AC) is light armour, as is elven chain. In strip 849 we see that his armour is glamoured so we cannot count on its depiction to be true.

Alternatively, he could have taken the Epic feat allowing him an extra ring.

So it's looking like this theory may be invalid. Strip 853, panel six shows Belkar saying "Some of us had a guy in plate armor trip over us, you know." The glamour would cover the look of the armor, but Belkar is complaining about its weight in this context. This suggests Tarquin is wearing at least Medium armor even assuming it's mithril.

[littlebum2002]

Well, like I said, he must have 15+ Dex because Snatch Arrows is not a bonus feat for Monks; only Deflect Arrows is. He has to qualify for it on his own merits.

As for the Wisdom, there are a few other points in favor of that being moderate-high other than Stunning Fist: he was able to resist Durkon's Hold Person, meaning he has a decent Will save, he's old, and he has a good enough Spot check to overcome Haley's Hide roll.

Actually, if you look at T's stat sheet, he isn't listed as having Snatch Arrows. That's because that feat only lets you snatch one arrow, not two.

[Tobtor]

Yay, lets do the snatch arrow discussion again! It will be so great......

[Chei]

Well, Tarquin's stat sheet is missing several feats that he seems to demonstrate based on combat actions he makes without provoking AOO's, but I'm not deeply interested in arguing Snatch Arrows.

Mind just telling me what the non-Snatch Arrows argument is?
edit: never mind, you just did; it doesn't let you catch a second arrow, so it's some other ability. (Clearly he took the feat twice! /joking)

[Reboot]

Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (required to cast 9th level spells).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class).
Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead four times per day).
Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
Feats: Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell.
Skills: Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry, Knowledge: Nature (SOD), Speak Language: Goblin (racial), Spellcraft; no Draconic (NCPB).
Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead, Command Undead, Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
Items: Black armor (SOD), The Crimson Mantle, backup unholy symbol, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II, eye patch, spyglass, Xykon's Phylactery, Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual, Ring of protection from level drain, boots.
Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening.

Still not added the spells (which include non-core) from 1039 & 1040.

[Quartz]

So it's looking like this theory may be invalid. Strip 853, panel six shows Belkar saying "Some of us had a guy in plate armor trip over us, you know." The glamour would cover the look of the armor, but Belkar is complaining about its weight in this context.

Breastplate is medium armour. Mithril breastplate is light. Also, it depends upon how good the illusion is, how many senses the glamour affects.

[Chei]

Right, but half-plate and full plate come to mind more easily when people think "plate armor". Again, especially, in the context of complaints about heaviness.

If his armor wasn't heavy, why would Belkar specify it that way? He'd just say "some of us had a guy trip over us".

[Peelee]

Breastplate is medium armour. Mithril breastplate is light. Also, it depends upon how good the illusion is, how many senses the glamour affects.

It doesn't depend, actually.

Glamered
A suit of armor with this ability appears normal. Upon command, the armor changes shape and form to assume the appearance of a normal set of clothing. The armor retains all its properties (including weight) when glamered. Only a true seeing spell or similar magic reveals the true nature of the armor when disguised.

Moderate illusion; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, disguise self; Price +2,700 gp.

[Quartz]

If his armor wasn't heavy, why would Belkar specify it that way? He'd just say "some of us had a guy trip over us".

Breastplate isn't exactly light. And Belkar's a halfling.

It doesn't depend, actually.

Right; I'd got the property precisely reversed!

[Ephemera]

Mind just telling me what the non-Snatch Arrows argument is?

A thread or three ago, the question of exactly how Tarquin snatches multiple arrows (including some that apparently weren't aimed at him while riding the dinosaur, and notably deciding and/or needing to let go of the boat to catch one of them in his final encounter with the Order) was debated ad nauseum. This ranks right up there with the question of what level Xykon can be proven to be as the longest and least conclusive arguments in the history of this thread, and both questions have kind of been tabled as having multiple possible explanations (although there is notably no rule against reviving the discussion if you have a new theory/evidence...assuming you can find anyone willing to discuss it with you).

If you really care, someone can probably point out which thread this took place in (I imagine a forum search for something like "Tarquin infinite deflection arrow snatching" will probably yield a whole bunch of hits in the relevant thread).

[Chei]

Breastplate isn't exactly light. And Belkar's a halfling.

A mithril breastplate would be light enough that I don't think Belkar would complain about it specifically. Only about 15 pounds total.

Non-mithril full plate would weigh 50 pounds, and its description in the SRD matches Tarquin's look in the comic:

Full Plate

The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor.

Though obviously we couldn't see the gauntlets at that stage in the story.

If you really care, someone can probably point out which thread this took place in (I imagine a forum search for something like "Tarquin infinite deflection arrow snatching" will probably yield a whole bunch of hits in the relevant thread).

I don't really care; your explanation was more than enough. Thanks.

[Kurald Galain]

Still not added the spells (which include non-core) from 1039 & 1040.

Redcloak's list doesn't enumerate all non-core spells, but all spells that aren't on the cleric list. This is because the rules specify that all clerics automatically know everything on their whole list, which easily contains a couple thousand spells.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Random question. Is there something we can say about Xykon's Strength score from his ability to use large chunks of rubble as an improvised weapon (or at least pick up and drop them while flying)? Xykon didn't cast any apparent buffs before combat, and wouldn't have expected combat (let alone combat which would involve him picking up pieces of his own tower), so Xykon is either using (in descending order of probability) his natural strength, his natural strength augmented by some magic item, or his natural strength augmented by some long-term buff he routinely spends spell slots on.

[Chei]

Well if that chunk of stone is 200 pounds, which actually seems kind of light, then it would put his Strength at 15+, it being his max load.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well if that chunk of stone is 200 pounds, which actually seems kind of light, then it would put his Strength at 15+, it being his max load.

If we approximate it as a rectangular prism, six feet by four feet by one and a half feet (close enough for an estimate) and has the density of concrete, it would weigh more than a ton*. So yeah, that's probably a low estimate.

*Citation. Feel free to play with the numbers or try different materials as suits your estimation fancy.

[RickDaily12]

Have we not yet been able to determine Roy's minimum CON due to his fight with Durkon (Greg) yet? I may have missed the discussion, but I thought this summed up the details nicely:

Spoiler

Show

1 spell dealing damage (1002)
1 Slam (1003)
Flame Strike (1004)
1 Slam (1004)
Harm (1006)
1 Slam (1007)

Negative Energy hitting = no Death Ward
Roy's Armor burnt 1004 = no Resist Fire
Durkon (Greg)'s Minimum STR Mod: +5
1d6+5 each Slam = -6 per Slam
2 Negative Levels per Slam = -10 HP

---
48 DMG from Slams + Neg Levels
Minimum damage from Flame Strike = (14d6 -> 14 -> save) 7 DMG
Harm: = (14x10 -> 140 -> save) 70 DMG
+1 DMG from unspecified spell
---
= 48+7+1+70 = 56+70 = 126

Assuming Roy is Level 14:
Feats: 5 for Human, 8 for Fighter 14

Cleave
Combat Expertise
Endurance
Great Cleave
Improved Disarm
Improved Grapple
Improved Sunder
Improved Unarmed Strike
Power Attack
Spellsplinter Maneuver
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
-
(Toughness)


Maximum Hit Points excluding CON: 143
Minimum damage Roy took: 126
Remaining Hitpoints: 3 if Con Mod -1 /w Toughness
Otherwise: 14 HP at Con Mod 0 (Roy had 1+ HP)


Roy's Minimum CON score:
8 or higher /w Toughness
10 or Higher w/o Toughness

[Douglas]

I was going to say Harm's damage could in theory be a lot lower due to its "can't drop you below 1 hp" clause, but if that limit had kicked in the immediately following slam (with negative levels) would have dropped him from 1 to -15 or below for an outright kill.

So, that analysis looks right to me.

[Quild]

Have we not yet been able to determine Roy's minimum CON due to his fight with Durkon (Greg) yet? I may have missed the discussion, but I thought this summed up the details nicely:

I did similar calculation 1 year ago (damn), but that was before #1007 which taught a lot (Roy wasn't incapacited and had at least 17HP left after Harm).

I agree with your calculations, but there's something about the unknown spell.
Clerics don't have many different spells inflicting damages. If I don't miss any:
- Inflict Minor Wounds: 1 DMG (0 if saved)
- Inflict Light Wounds: 1D8+5 DMG (3 minimum if saved)
- Inflict Moderate Wounds: 2D8+10 DMG (6 minimum if saved)
- Inflict Serious Wounds: 3D8+14 DMG (8 minimum if saved)
- Searing Light: 5D8 (5 minimum)
- Inflict Critical Wounds: 4D8+14 DMG (9 minimum if saved)
- Flame Strike => We know it's not the right one
- Slay living: 3D6 + 14 DMG if saved (minimum 17)
- Harm: 140 DMG (70 if saved)
- Destruction: 10d6 DMG if saved (6 minimum)
Then we go to 8th level spells.

So except if Durkon* used an orison on Roy (and Roy's reaction and three injuries looks like he took more than 1 DMG), I think you can replace the 1DMG by the 3 damage that would make a 1st level spell instead.
A level 14 Roy with Thoughness and -1 modifier would have 129HP.
Durkon* would have dealt 128HP.

Your result remains if Durkon* used a 1st level spell... Which seems really a bad asumption.
Note that the art of #1002 isn't incoherent with the use of a touch spell light "inflict" spells are.

[Jasdoif]

Durkon (Greg)'s Minimum STR Mod: +5
1d6+5 each Slam = -6 per Slam

Vampires get one slam attack. As the sole natural weapon, it gets one-and-a-half times Strength on damage. So that's +7.5, default is round down so +7. So each slam is a minimum of 8 physical damage. Which brings physical+negativeLevelReduction to 18, which puts the three slams at 54.

So six extra points of damage throughout your calculations. Which exceeds the Toughness safety margin, so even with toughness it'd normally take Con 10 to still be functioning after all that. Except...Since we have Complete Warrior as a source used in the comic, Roy could have taken Improved Toughness to get an extra hit point per level; which effectively drops the Constitution requirement by 2.

So, still minimum Con of 8.

---

Now since I noticed this in the initial posts during this research....I just realized my determination of Greg HPoH's Concentration modifier is listed under Durkon, which is incorrect since I based it on how undead use their Charisma modifier on Concentration checks....But more to the point, I missed Roy's Weapon Specialization feat there, so Roy's minimum damage is 2 points higher, so HPoH's Concentration modifier is 4+ .


So in the interest of accuracy, I'm going to put an updated (and slightly touched up) version of that post here:

So in 1006 Roy hit HPoH while he was casting harm, but the spell didn't fizzle....That'd be a successful Concentration check, wouldn't it?


Roy's using a +5 greatsword, damage of 2d6+5, minimum damage of 7....
First post has him with Strength 24, that's a +7 mod; wielding a two-handed weapon requires two hands, so times-and-a-half damage, or +10.5; rounded down that'd be +10....
And Roy has Weapon Specialization with his greatsword, for another +2.
So minimum 19 damage.

Assuming starmetal doesn't bypass silver DR, HPoH's DR reduces by the damage taken by 10, so that's 9.

The DC for a concentration check while casting a spell is 10+damageTaken+spellLevel, and harm is a level 6 spell, so 10+9+6, or 25....

If HPoH rolled a 20, that'd take a +5 modifier.

Undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks, and first post has HPoH with less than 14, so +1 is highest possible ability modifier.


So HPoH would have to have at least +4 worth of Concentration modifier from another source. Whether that's skill points, Skill Focus (concentration) or something external; I'm not sure.

[Chei]

Speaking of UnDurkon, why is his Wisdom listed at 16+ rather than 19+, or at least 17+? He was able to cast 7th level spells while alive, and was able to try casting Destruction (is that ignored because Roy interrupted it?) during their fight. Vampires also get a +2 to Wisdom, so I don't really understand using the lower number just because it matches the highest level spell he successfully cast onscreen. We seem to have more information than that.

[Quild]

Vampires get one slam attack. As the sole natural weapon, it gets one-and-a-half times Strength on damage. So that's +7.5, default is round down so +7. So each slam is a minimum of 8 physical damage. Which brings physical+negativeLevelReduction to 18, which puts the three slams at 54.

So six extra points of damage throughout your calculations. Which exceeds the Toughness safety margin, so even with toughness it'd normally take Con 10 to still be functioning after all that. Except...Since we have Complete Warrior as a source used in the comic, Roy could have taken Improved Toughness to get an extra hit point per level; which effectively drops the Constitution requirement by 2.

So, still minimum Con of 8.

Roy has 12 feats listed and if Rick is right on this one (which I think), should only have 13 feat as a level 14 human Fighter.

So if he has Improved Toughness, he doesn't have Toughness (which is not a prerequisite... odd).
AND, he loses 1 additional HP for each level drain, which is 6 additional damage.
So he takes +7 damage from your calculation correction and +6 from losing levels but gains 14HP.
Which makes only 1 additional HP in the end for Roy with this feat.

So we're back at my post (which isn't my goal, really): What is the minimum damage dealt by the unknown spell?

[Jasdoif]

AND, he loses 1 additional HP for each level drain, which is 6 additional damage.

Each negative level is a flat -5 hit points; they only convert to the chance of actual reduction in character level (where the extra hit points from Con and Improved Toughness would be affected) 24 hours after the negative levels are applied, and the battle was over well before then.

Anyway, if we account for the 6 additional physical damage, and add in the (14-3) 11 hit points for subbing Improved Toughness for Toughness, that's a net of five extra hit points....Which would leave Roy with 8 hit points, if he had a Con mod of -1. That's enough to accommodate a few more negative energy spells.