MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Ozymandias9]

Clearly the answer is that he is a juvenile Phoenix (of the X-men variety). They have a good arm (Time stamp 19:40). They eat a lot, what with the star sized lunches and such. And they have sufficiently vast powers to explain pretty much whatever, at least once we start talking about the White Crown Phoenix from the more recent comics.

Since most of them seem to live in New York, they tend to speak-- but at least its English and not Common.[/end ridiculous suggestion]

[One Skunk Todd]

Maybe it's an owlbear sorceror. Or a human(oid) sorceror transformed into an owlbear.

[Nerdanel]

I'm thinking that the Spellcraft is a major hint that hasn't gotten enough attention. Therefore I went through every single SRD monster with Spellcraft.

Disqualified for being Undead:
- Atropal
- Demilich
- Hunefer
- Nightshade (Nightcrawler, Nightwalker, Nightwing)

Disqualified for being incorporeal:
- Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collector)
- Phane

Would not be surprising if it spoke:
- Avoral
- Balor
- Couatl
- Dragon
- Genie (Djinni, Efreeti)
- Glabrezu
- Hezrou
- Ice Devil (Gelugon)
- Imp
- Lammasu
- Lillend
- Marilith
- Mercane
- Naga
- Nalfeshnee
- Night Hag
- Ogre Mage
- Pit Fiend
- Quasit
- Rakshasa
- Solar
- Titan
- Titan, Elder
- Vrock

Immune to Xykon's spell:
- Infernal
- Unicorn
- Xixecal

Miscellaneous problems:
- Formian Queen (cannot move)
- Uvuudaum (constant Confusion Aura)
- Worm That Walks (used to be a living wizard or a sorcerer)

Best fit:
- Ha-Naga

Ha-Naga has +37 Spellcraft. This is well enough.

Since Ha-Naga isn't really that great a fit I think it would be worth the while to go through the non-SRD sources for other monsters with Spellcraft.

[LuPuWei]

Have Half-breeds been discussed? Like a Half-dragon/half-halfling? (No seriously )

[Shale]

Half-X is covered in the "templated creature" option. If you've got a particular template that seems like a good fit, feel free to bring it up, just bear in mind that the most common, including half-dragon, don't work very well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have Half-breeds been discussed? Like a Half-dragon/half-halfling? (No seriously )

Yes. See section 2d - Augmentation.

Grey Wolf

[Mr Spook]

My two cents:

[Fiend Folio TSR2012]

• Enveloper
  
  They can imitate any power
• Mezzodaemon
• Nycademons

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My two cents:

[Fiend Folio TSR2012]

• Enveloper
  
  They can imitate any power
• Mezzodaemon
• Nycademons

FYI: Unless you do a better job of defending those, they are going to get ignored (meaning they won't be added to the first post), since those are just names.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

My two cents:

[Fiend Folio TSR2012]

• Enveloper
  
  They can imitate any power
• Mezzodaemon
• Nycademons

The Mezzodaemon and the Nycademon basically have little or no way to account for anything as far as I can see.

The Enveloper is a 8' by 1' cylinder of malleable flesh that can form up to 5 appendices - fx arms, legs, head when it assumes the approximation of human form.

It gains its hit dies two at a time (3, 5, 7, etc) and there is no upper limit to how many hit die it may posses. Apart from the potential of having lots of hit points it has no damage resistance and a fairly poor AC and, as I understand it, it is not particularly strong.

Interestingly, however, it gains its powers from victims it consume (envelopes) -all their knowledge and experience and so may use their abilities, spells, language, etc. It also tends towards the alignment of its most recently consumed victim. (It is described as being of animal intelligence but I gather this changes when it gain the abilities of its victims.) The Enveloper consumes victims by falling upon them when they are slain and absorbing them into itself.

Theoretically the Enveloper could work but it would have to have consumed someone with the abilities we have seen it use as none of them are inherent to the base creature. Personally I find it a very very unlikely candidate but at the very least I think it warrants a place on the list of suggested monsters.

[Nerdanel]

Does the Enveloper have eyes?

[Kish]

Interestingly, however, it gains its powers from victims it consume (envelopes) -all their knowledge and experience and so may use their abilities, spells, language, etc. It also tends towards the alignment of its most recently consumed victim. (It is described as being of animal intelligence but I gather this changes when it gain the abilities of its victims.) The Enveloper consumes victims by falling upon them when they are slain and absorbing them into itself.

Theoretically the Enveloper could work but it would have to have consumed someone with the abilities we have seen it use as none of them are inherent to the base creature.

And, if it gains all the knowledge and experience of those it consumes, it would need to have never consumed anyone with any of the many types of knowledge and experience which the creature in the darkness is comically lacking.

[LuPuWei]

I know what the MitD is!

Spoiler

Show

He's one of us! A Fanboy!

Fanboys: Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

MITD: Fanboy, FTW!

[Lord Bingo]

Does the Enveloper have eyes?

As I understand its entry it does not have eyes, nor does it have a mouth with which it eats. It does not form fingers and toes either.

Think of it as a very abstract clay approximation of the shape of a man/woman.

[Lord Bingo]

I know what the MitD is!

He's one of us! A Fanboy!

Fanboys: Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

MITD: Fanboy, FTW!

I am the MitD!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am the MitD!

If we're going to go down that path, we might as well use the correct language:

Ich bein ein MitD!


Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

Wouldn't it be "Ich bin der MitD" since we're talking of a specific individual or do you mean that you are merely a member of the species and not the MitD itself?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't it be "Ich bin der MitD" since we're talking of a specific individual or do you mean that you are merely a member of the species and not the MitD itself?

Beats me. Je ne parle pas l'allemand. But I'd think that given that it's a fanboy, rather than the fanboy, I'd think MitD could be understood to be the name for the species ("one of those" and all of that). I mean, we all live in the basement - spiritually, if not literally - etc. We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.



Grey Wolf

[LuPuWei]

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey Wolf

Stimmt so!

Wir sein MitDs...

Aber warrum spricht der MitD Deutsch?

Ich bin Spartacus auch

[Eldan]

Would be "das MitD", actually. "Monster" is not a masculine noun.

Yay, nitpickery.

[Fri]

Beats me. Je ne parle pas l'allemand. But I'd think that given that it's a fanboy, rather than the fanboy, I'd think MitD could be understood to be the name for the species ("one of those" and all of that). I mean, we all live in the basement - spiritually, if not literally - etc. We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.



Grey Wolf

this is the reason of why this thread and all previous thread existed at all. To reach this conclusion. Now we can end the thread peacefully

[lio45]

Best fit:
- Ha-Naga

Ha-Naga has +37 Spellcraft. This is well enough.

Since Ha-Naga isn't really that great a fit I think it would be worth the while to go through the non-SRD sources for other monsters with Spellcraft.

Just FWIW, I'm all but certain that Ha-Naga has already been brought forward and considered in a previous version of this thread.

I don't remember the details of the discussion, though. Since it's not currently among the thread's best fits, presumably it didn't resist closer scrutiny back then.

[willdelve4beer]

Given that all we see of MitD are the eyes, I started thinking about D&D monsters who seem to be all about the eyes.

Bodak & Ultrodaemon came to mind.

I doubt it is bodak (undead), but Ultrodaemon doesn't seem, off hand, to be totally unthinkable. Is there a particular reason we're not considering it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given that all we see of MitD are the eyes, I started thinking about D&D monsters who seem to be all about the eyes.

Bodak & Ultrodaemon came to mind.

I doubt it is bodak (undead), but Ultrodaemon doesn't seem, off hand, to be totally unthinkable. Is there a particular reason we're not considering it?

A link would be nice. An explanation of your suggestion would be even nicer. A name doesn't really tell me anything, other than as a likely demon, the first objection is going to be its inability to change alignments.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Daemons (also known as yugoloths) aren't unable to change alignment- but as outsiders they may not reproduce the way mortals do, so the "large father" might not fit very well.

Plus, as fiends, their starting alignment will be Evil- and it's very rare for a fiend to change alignment. Though not completely impossible. Eberron has a True Neutral Ultraloth ship captain.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it's very rare for a fiend to change alignment. Though not completely impossible.

I don't have the books with me, but Rich talks about the IFCC's alignment in DStP, IIRC (acronym overload, sorry), and I think it is pretty clear that he considers demons incapable of changing alignment more than slightly. Nothing like MitD. Even if in other 'verses demons can change alignments, I don't think Rich/OotSverse is one of those.

Grey Wolf

[Mellisan]

Given that all we see of MitD are the eyes, I started thinking about D&D monsters who seem to be all about the eyes.

Bodak & Ultrodaemon came to mind.

I doubt it is bodak (undead), but Ultrodaemon doesn't seem, off hand, to be totally unthinkable. Is there a particular reason we're not considering it?

The most recent version of the Ultroloth I could find is from Monster Manual 3 (p204). Looks like this.

Medium size Outsider (Evil), CR 13. Relevant statistics:
Strength of 13; DR 15/good; AC 21
has 20+ ranks in Spellcraft and related knowledges
Speaks Abyssal, Infernal, and Draconic
Has Greater Teleport (self only)
Has Hypnotic Gaze (Su)

The low strength, expected ability to speak, and inability to readily explain The Escape probably rules it out. In general it just doesn't seem tough enough. An earlier edition version might be tougher; I don't know what it was like in 2E. My guess would be that since there's an updated version that would take precedence.

[hamishspence]

I don't have the books with me, but Rich talks about the IFCC's alignment in DStP, IIRC (acronym overload, sorry), and I think it is pretty clear that he considers demons incapable of changing alignment more than slightly. Nothing like MitD. Even if in other 'verses demons can change alignments, I don't think Rich/OotSverse is one of those.

Grey Wolf

The IFCC illustrate that archfiends can be a little flexible- but I didn't remember much on implications that no fiend changes more than a little.

Still, it's been a while since I've looked.

Demons, devils, and daemons are different types of fiend- they might have different levels of "redeemability"

Erinyes devils, for example, are actually fallen angels. If an angel can fall, maybe a fiend can rise?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The IFCC illustrate that archfiends can be a little flexible- but I didn't remember much on implications that no fiend changes more than a little.

Still, it's been a while since I've looked.

Demons, devils, and daemons are different types of fiend- they might have different levels of "redeemability"

Erinyes devils, for example, are actually fallen angels. If an angel can fall, maybe a fiend can rise?

I hesitate to continue this discussion without first posting the relevant passage, since my memory could be way off, but if I'm right, Rich compares the demon/daemon/devil trio (and remember there is one of each) to Celia, and how the demons are basically stuck with being evil, only managing to change just slightly enough in the legal/chaos sphere to be able to work together to create great evil (while Celia -or rather, her kind- could be of any alignment).

However, understand that this is from my personal recollection; I'd take it with a big grain of salt until the proper quote can be posted. I'd do it myself, but, as I said, I'm very much away from my books.

Grey Wolf

[HPhage]

I was looking through the old threads and taking a look through the original posting here as a recent suggestion got me wondering...

Has some sort of shapechange/polymorph been brought up as a possibility? Much of my 3.0/3.5 rules knowledge comes from the SRD but it seems like there are multiple possibilities, especially if allowing for epic spellcasting.

The Epic Transformation seed states

SRD
"The transformed creature or object acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature or object it has been changed into while retaining its own memories and mental ability scores. Mental abilities include personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, base saves, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. "

For example, MitD could have been something which is normally quite large (his father was large and ate a lot) but after his transformation he fits into thecircus wagon and beneath the umbrella. As well he may have had the mental capabilities we are now seeing him perform (The Escape/identifying the spell for Miko) but not the physical attributes, but he was transformed into something which was strong, damage resistant and vomit-inducing.

I realize that this is akin to the suggested "templated" versions of the MitD, but I think it might be more fitting from a story standpoint in the long run. The more we see the MitD acting "out of character", the more likely it is that it is not what everyone (in OOtSverse) seems to think it is. While a templated tarrasque/psion/ha-naga/batman wizard would be very difficult to "guess", a shapechanged "X" is far less far-fetched. To me anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Has some sort of shapechange/polymorph been brought up as a possibility?

Yes, a few times, the last one being in the previous page. Here is my answer. In short, Rich dislikes unbridled polymorph of the kind you suggest, so he is unlikely to use it.

Also, a shapechanged anything is even harder to identify than templates or even class levels, since once you open the door to that, the possibilities are really, really infinite, unlike the other two.

Grey Wolf