The Jellicle Ball

[Logan1996]

Logan1996

There we go. Good job town.

[Unavenger]

Huh. Well, I didn't have to use my NKI, which means... someone was saved?

Also, not that I mind murdering cultists, but shouldn't we deck the mafia first? Is that not a valid strat, given that we can barely afford to take another NK on the nose?

[Bunny of Faith]

Logan1996

There we go. Good job town.

Who'd you save last night?

[JoyWonderLove]

Hmm. I think Unavenger is on to something. I'd like to ask Bunny of Faith and Logan to undo their vote and let me please test this. There's 6 players remaining. Two of them claim to be neutrals. We also know the Mafia is supposed to start with 4 players. So, again, please take your votes off of Logan and leave me as the sole voter against flat_footed. Why? Check out the power of Growltiger. If flat_footed is a Mafia member (Growltiger specifically), there's no harm in me being taken out by his power. I'm just a vanillager. Best case scenario, we get a Mafia member, and gac3 is suddenly very suspicious in everyone's eyes.

Worse case scenario, I'm wrong, and we vote for Logan next day (if we don't want a tie).

flat_footed.

edit1: Of course, I could be totally wrong, and no one has the patience to let me try even if I'm right sort of thing. Really, play the game however you want, all. I'm just cautious we're dealing with four Mafia members (as AV always implied we were). Our numbers of 6 remaining players support the idea.

Griddlebone
"Growltiger had no eye or ear for aught but Griddlebone..."

Every night, select one player. Their power, if any, doesn't function tonight. You count as having one fewer votes on you when votes are being tallied.

Growltiger
"From Gravesend up to Oxford he pursued his evil aims..."

If you are lynched, one random non-mafia player voting for you dies as well. If you would be targeted for the conversion, you die instead, and take a random cultist with you.

[Unavenger]

Hmm. I think Unavenger is on to something. I'd like to ask Bunny of Faith and Logan to undo their vote and let me please test this. There's 6 players remaining. Two of them claim to be neutrals. We also know the Mafia is supposed to start with 4 players. So, again, please take your votes off of Logan and leave me as the sole voter against flat_footed. Why? Check out the power of Growltiger. If flat_footed is a Mafia member (Growltiger specifically), there's no harm in me being taken out by his power. I'm just a vanillager. Best case scenario, we get a Mafia member, and gac3 is suddenly very suspicious in everyone's eyes.

Worse case scenario, I'm wrong, and we vote for Logan next day (if we don't want a tie).

flat_footed.

Again, this isn't a protest vote. This is a "what if the supposed neutrals are the last two Mafia memebers" vote.

Nah, I'm not saying we should lynch the uncounterclaimed neutrals. I'm more worried about you, JWL. I don't think it unlikely that there are three mafia, rather than four. I know Bunny isn't one, I'm pretty sure Logan isn't one, and if the two neutrals are actually mafia then we'll have trouble anyway, so I'd like to believe that the two neutrals are in fact the two neutrals.

Which means there are two possibilities: one is that I've missed something vital. The other is JoyWonderLove.

[JoyWonderLove]

Nah, I'm not saying we should lynch the uncounterclaimed neutrals. I'm more worried about you, JWL. I don't think it unlikely that there are three mafia, rather than four. I know Bunny isn't one, I'm pretty sure Logan isn't one, and if the two neutrals are actually mafia then we'll have trouble anyway, so I'd like to believe that the two neutrals are in fact the two neutrals.

Which means there are two possibilities: one is that I've missed something vital. The other is JoyWonderLove.

I don't actually care that much, so I'll put out this one post and leave it at that.

Unavenger. As I've repeated several times, to several people (you'll notice that they were mostly actual Mafia members), please check out my very first post. The one where I copy pasted my role PM.

Now, please ask, how would a Mafia member, word for word, have gotten the exact vanilllager wording perfectly, when it was *impossible* to get it before that point? Genuinely. Go check my first post (which has never been edited). Then go check the wording for AV's Vanillager in the original topic. I couldn't possibly have gotten it unless I'm being honest. If that's not enough solid common sense proof, I'm at peace walking away from this.

Be safe all.

[gac3]

https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/RPre4cmgYuP8b

The wolves told me in a couple ways that there was only one left.

Logan1996

[gac3]

There is no gac3 mystery wolf. Apogee told me yesterday that they were the only wolf

[flat_footed]

Logan1996. Can confirm that I'm not mafia, with my buddy gac3.

[JoyWonderLove]

Logan1996. Can confirm that I'm not mafia, with my buddy gac3.

There is no gac3 mystery wolf. Apogee told me yesterday that they were the only wolf

Oh, my mistake, sorry. Really thought AV would have packed as many wolves into the game as possible, because AV. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. Well played all.

[AvatarVecna]

End Of Day Four

The one remaining problematic cat was convinced to go sleep off their catnip-induced delirium. And there was much rejoicing!

Logan1996 has died. They were Mister Mistoffelees turned Cultist.

Spoiler: Logan1996 Role PM

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Mister Mistoffelees
"At least they all heard that somebody heard...which is incontestable proof!"

Every night, select one player. If that player is targeted by the mafia to be killed, or by the cult to be converted, the kill/conversion fails, and your target is informed that you protected them (in the form of "[player name], Mister Mistoffelees, protected you last night"). You may not select the same player two nights in a row.

Town and Neutrals are Victorious

Spoiler: flat_footed/gac3 Role PM

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Mungojerrie & Rumpleteaser
"Then the family will say 'now which was which cat?'!"

You two start the game in contact. Every night, each of you can select one player to steal something that will never be noticed. This can't be prevented by protective powers, but it also has no effect on the target. Your victory condition is to survive to the end the game where every living player has been robbed at some point. If one of your doesn't survive, that one of you doesn't win regardless.

Spoiler: JoyWonderLove Role PM

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Vanillager
"All cats are jellicle cats, you see."

You have no special power. If you would be scried, and the scry would learn your role name, they are told you are Korova.

Spoiler: Snowblaze Role PM

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Jennyanydots
"When the day's hustle and bustle is done, then the gumbie cat's work is but hardly begun!"

Every night, select one player. You see everybody who targets this player during the night, and you gain access to any non-faction QTs they currently have access to.

Spoiler: Unavenger Role PM

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Old Deuteronomy
"Do you know how to go to the heaviside layer?"

Once across the entire game, during the night phase, you may target one player other than yourself and declare them the Jellicle Choice. This effectively kills the player in question. This kill cannot be blocked or resisted in any way. The neutrals, the cultists, even the mafia - everybody wants to be the Jellicle Choice, and won't interfere if it's made even if they would otherwise want to. However, as a result, their win condition is considered immediately fulfilled, and that player is considered to have won the game, regardless of how the rest of the game goes.

You count as having one fewer votes on you when votes are being tallied.

The first time you would be killed or converted during a night phase, it fails.

Have to get going to do some gaming elsewhere, but when I return I'll give some commentary on some of the things that made this game go weirdly - primarily my own mistakes during balancing, but also particular plays that stood out to me.

[Valmark]

I was totally a cultist, yeah.

[Aventine]

Sorry Logan.

I said it a couple times in deadchat, but this really should be counted as a win for him too.

[Logan1996]

Sorry Logan.

I said it a couple times in deadchat, but this really should be counted as a win for him too.

No worries. It all worked out okay. Who did you target night two though?

[Aventine]

No worries. It all worked out okay. Who did you target night two though?

Everybody...

First you, then you claimed and I was targeting people who hadn't claimed to me so that I could get people who didn't already seem to trust me. Then Valmark, but then Bunny said he was going to watch Valmark. So I switched to Caoimhin to avoid being seen. But also apparently was successful at convincing Bunny to switch off.

So that was a hilarious and ultimately bad night for me.

[gac3]

Weird... It never really crossed my mind that the cult recruits could have been the ones targetted for the kill. I figured Aventine just targetted Unavenger or something night 2

[Snowblaze]

Lesson to be learned from this: don’t trust my reads. Also, crazy gambits are liable to get you killed night one.

[AvatarVecna]

Lesson to be learned from this: don’t trust my reads. Also, crazy gambits are liable to get you killed night one.

I will say that there were three people mass-PMing D1. But yeah, looking like you're trying to organize town D1 is a great way to get shot before you can manage to get a handle on things.

[Snowblaze]

I will say that there were three people mass-PMing D1. But yeah, looking like you're trying to organize town D1 is a great way to get shot before you can manage to get a handle on things.

Yeah, but one of the other two had a plan which made it impossible for wolves to kill them night one and the other was a claimed neutral.

If I’d lived I would have at least figured out Apogee based on my unique views plan, but then I would have proceeded to deathtunnel Valmark and get him killed.

Also I feel like all the walls of text discussing mechanics made it hard for me to get properly into the game. That probably didn’t help.

[JeenLeen]

I still feel embarrassed I bumbled the Day/Night times and didn't do more harm before dying. At worst, I should have at least have unearthed a power role via claiming. At best, maybe I could have staved off death for one day and kept the Town focused on me another Day longer (thus giving Apogee more time).

AV: in the deadchat, you mentioned something like the difficulty of balancing cult in that having 1 cult allowed it to die off D1 due to luck, while two cult tended to make it overpowered (especially if the Conversion wasn't a power tied to one person (as it was with Bombaluria) but is a group power.) Could you elaborate? And clarify if I misrepresented your view.

[AvatarVecna]

I still feel embarrassed I bumbled the Day/Night times and didn't do more harm before dying. At worst, I should have at least have unearthed a power role via claiming. At best, maybe I could have staved off death for one day and kept the Town focused on me another Day longer (thus giving Apogee more time).

AV: in the deadchat, you mentioned something like the difficulty of balancing cult in that having 1 cult allowed it to die off D1 due to luck, while two cult tended to make it overpowered (especially if the Conversion wasn't a power tied to one person (as it was with Bombaluria) but is a group power.) Could you elaborate? And clarify if I misrepresented your view.

Firstly, it's primarily about a game where it's just town and cult (maybe neutrals, but primarily no mafia to interfere or get failed conversions). The other part of it is that cult's relative advantage grows faster than the mafia's does.

In a normal game, the lynch has two possible results: lynch town, or lynch mafia. If you lynch town, then a townie dies during the night, and during the next day phase, you have -2 town/-0 mafia. Conversely, if you lynch mafia, then a townie dies during the night, and during the next day phase, you have -1 town/-1 mafia. In a cult game, the lynch has two possible results: lynch town, or lynch cult. If you lynch town, then a townie is converted during the night, and during the next day phase, you have -2 town/+1 cult. Conversely, if you lynch cult, then a townie is converted during the night, and during the next day phase, you have -1 town/+0 cult.

In absolute terms this means that the cult's ability to influence the lynch grows a lot faster than the mafia's would in a normal game, and thus the game can end quicker than a normal WW game. To compensate for that, cult has to start with fewer members than a standard mafia would. But particularly at lower player counts, that can be a tricky balance to strike.

In a 12 town/3 mafia setup, Town loses after the 5th mislynch. In a 14 town/1 cult setup, town loses after the 5th mislynch. In a 13 town/2 cult setup, town loses after the 4th mislynch.

In a 20 town/5 mafia setup, town loses after the 8th mislynch. In a 24 town/1 cult setup, town loses after the 8th mislynch. In a 23 town/2 cult setup, town loses after the 7th mislynch.

In a 28 town/7 mafia setup, town loses after the 11th mislynch. In a 34 town/1 cult setup, town loses after the 11th mislynch. In a 33 town/2 cult setup, town loses after the 11th mislynch.

It takes an awful lot of players, and comparatively an awful lot of wolves, for a standard mafia to no longer be falling behind a 2-cult team. Mafia can be fairly consistently on-par with a 1-cult team, but as mentioned, a 1-cult game runs the risk of accidentally ending D1. Power roles have a low chance to affect things - a bane has a low chance to change the number of mislynches necessary, a scry has a low chance of making a mislynch highly unlikely, a vig-shot has a low chance to change the number of mislynches necessary, and so on. But for the most part, the number of mislynches remains unchanged, and the odds of a lynch getting a townie aren't usually that much better than random guessing. Even in a high-power-role game, it generally requires good analysis.

In a larger game (not like here), a cult can be mitigated by the presence of a proper (if weakened) mafia, like was the intention here, or unconvertable neutrals (like here). The chances for failed conversion, and the fact that townies are being eliminated, means that cult can actually fail to convert, and that has little changes across the whole game. A game with 14 town/1 cult is about on-par with a 12 town/3 mafia game, but having both in the game at once means they can be stumbling over each other along the way, and town's odds of winning aren't actually that much worse for effectively facing off against two wolf teams.

During this game, cult got unlucky, in that their first target was a wolf, and their second target died the same night...but also that on the night Aventine finally got a successful conversion, he died, and his target was being watched. If either/both of those things weren't true, a cult victory would've still been very much on the table. But also the cult was unlucky in that I was very nervous about making the cult too powerful, so I gave them pretty much the worst possible start. This game probably would've been fairer if the conversion was a faction power rather than specifically Aventine's - I don't think that would've changed how the game went, given the unlucky coincidence previously mentioned, but it would've maybe given Logan motivation to push neutrals for a JWL mislynch on that last day, giving just enough chance to convert Bunny, and that'd be game.

[Valmark]

Mmm... Maybe? To be honest with a factional conversion it wouldn't really have mattered who Logan converted- the Neutrals would have still been the deciding factor.

Dunno how much fairer would that have been >.>

[gac3]

I've wanted to do a cult game for a while. Part of me still wants to run the upcoming final fantasy game as a cult game but I'm not sure I know enough about how cult games go to provide anything close to fair and balanced.


Edit: if Logan could have converted we very well might have sided with them. Would have depended. By that point we only needed to take out one more person and then just survive.

[AvatarVecna]

Mmm... Maybe? To be honest with a factional conversion it wouldn't really have mattered who Logan converted- the Neutrals would have still been the deciding factor.

Dunno how much fairer would that have been >.>

The neutrals would've been the deciding factor that day, but it makes a difference. In this setup, Logan could've pushed for that, and it could work as long as neutrals dedicated to the plan for three day phases - and the first two days, both of them kinda have to be involved or town can turn it around. Oooooooooor if Logan has a conversion, he lynches a townie today, converts one in the night, and then lynches the third, but that second day's lynch is far less neutral dependent.

It's still not great odds because that first day would still require Logan to push neutrals to extend the game when they've already won and just want it to be over, but it means a halfweek of dragging things out instead of a full week for Logan to eke out a victory.

[JeenLeen]

I've wanted to do a cult game for a while. Part of me still wants to run the upcoming final fantasy game as a cult game but I'm not sure I know enough about how cult games go to provide anything close to fair and balanced.

I plan on running a cult game (of regular Pelor worshipers being converted to the Burning Hate version of Pelor), but I'm considering having the cult NOT be networked together. Like, the cult knows who is cult, but doesn't get a private channel to communicate in.*

Like the Pact game I have coming up, I'm thinking of having no QTs, except those made possible by powers.

*it's possible one of the Town powers might unlock a cult chat, or have the ability to make communication possible. Still working on the ideas, though it's likely it'll be like this game in that there's only 3-5 Town powers and the rest are vanilla.