Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[Jacobo1226]

Hey! Wouldnt the artificer who dips in warlock be incredibly powerful? Go hexblade warlock for two, grab EB and agonizing blast, put the rest into artilerist. Because your canons trigger hex (while this seems RAW as always check with your dm) you end up doing insane damage and since you can use the artificers infusions to give yourself more accuracy with your enhanced arcane focus you can offset the downsides of MADness until you can invest in CHA. What you end up with is 6d8 from the turrets 4d10 + 20 from EB and a whopping 6D6 from hex (4d6 if they rule that your canons do not trigger hex) , plus once a short rest you can give yourself + proficiency bonus to each damage roll including your turrets giving you potentially an additional +36 damage a turn. It's simple and sleek but VERY high damage. All RAW as well.

[Klorox]

Hey! Wouldnt the artificer who dips in warlock be incredibly powerful? Go hexblade warlock for two, grab EB and agonizing blast, put the rest into artilerist. Because your canons trigger hex you end up doing insane damage and since you can use the artificers infusions to give yourself more accuracy with your enhanced arcane focus you can offset the downsides of MADness until you can invest in CHA. What you end up with is 6d8 from the turrets 4d10 + 20 from EB and a whopping 6D6 from hex, plus once a short rest you can give yourself + proficiency bonus to each damage roll including your turrets giving you potentially an additional +36 damage a turn. It's simple and sleek but VERY high damage. All RAW as well.

Nice find!

[Jacobo1226]

Nice find!

Thanks! I would be interested to see how exaclty it stacks up against other build or if I'm reading into it incorrectly but so far as I can tell it does some insane damage on top of artificers very robust defensive capabilities.

[Jacobo1226]

I need a ruling actually, because eldritch canon reads "make a ranged spell attack" and does not specify an artificer spell attack, could you use your warlock spell attack to do it?

[Amechra]

So... Artillerist + Warlock doesn't necessarily work as well as you think.

1) It's arguable whether or not Hex would boost your Eldritch Cannons in the first place - the feature technically creates an object that you can trigger to deal damage instead of giving you a new special attack. It's definitely something you'd need to hash out with your DM before trying.

2) Arcane Firearm only boosts Artificer spells, so you can't benefit from it when using Eldritch Blast. Which is a bit annoying, honestly.

3) You're relying on four ability scores, which can be pretty harsh. You'd be looking at starting with Int and Cha 16, which will make you pretty squishy.

I think Alchemist + Warlock might actually be a bit more useful - you can burn Pact Magic slots to pay for Experimental Elixirs, so you could stock up on healing potions or hand out Concentration-free single-target Bless and Alter Self effects. You also aren't relying on Intelligence as much, so you can safely get away with leaving it at 13.

[Jacobo1226]

So... Artillerist + Warlock doesn't necessarily work as well as you think.

1) It's arguable whether or not Hex would boost your Eldritch Cannons in the first place - the feature technically creates an object that you can trigger to deal damage instead of giving you a new special attack. It's definitely something you'd need to hash out with your DM before trying.

2) Arcane Firearm only boosts Artificer spells, so you can't benefit from it when using Eldritch Blast. Which is a bit annoying, honestly.

3) You're relying on four ability scores, which can be pretty harsh. You'd be looking at starting with Int and Cha 16, which will make you pretty squishy.

I think Alchemist + Warlock might actually be a bit more useful - you can burn Pact Magic slots to pay for Experimental Elixirs, so you could stock up on healing potions or hand out Concentration-free single-target Bless and Alter Self effects. You also aren't relying on Intelligence as much, so you can safely get away with leaving it at 13.

I get what you're saying, firstly I really enjoy the alchemist idea because its unique and s fun way to make the elixirs actually matter more than they do, but in regards to artillerist, I wasnt adding arcane firearm to the damage calculation. Hex specifically works with eldritch canon because of the following phrases, hex says " Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack." And Eldritch canon creates an object not a creature, with the following text under force bastilla "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon" the attack originates from the canon but you are the one making the attack, and thus it benefits from hex. Its arguable whether or not its RAI but RAW because you are the one making the attack it adds the damage, you are just making the attack from the canon, just like spiritual weapon triggering hex, if the turret were a seperate creature that's making the attack roll like the steel defender pet or a beastmasters animal, then it would not trigger, but the attack is specifically being made by you, not the turret, it simply originates from the turrets space for the purposes of the 120ft range.
Edit: grammar

[Amechra]

I get what you're saying, I wasnt adding arcane firearm to the damage calculation, and hex specifically works with eldritch canon because of the following phrases, hex says " Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack." And Eldritch canon creates an object not a creature, with the following text under force bastilla "Make a ranged spell attack, originating
from the cannon" the attack originates from the canon but you are the one making the attack, and thus it benefits from hex
Its arguable whether or not its RAI but RAW because you are the one making the attack it adds the damage, you are just making the attack from the canon, just like spiritual weapon triggering hex
Edit: grammar

That's fair, and that's why I said it's arguable - it feels more questionable to me than Spiritual Weapon + Hex, and as a DM I'd lean towards the more restrictive RAI. And when you're talking about stuff in a guide, you should stay away from questionable stuff, or at least signpost it with "check this with your DM first".

I also realized that you weren't applying Arcane Firearm to Eldritch Blast, but I just wanted to make it explicitly clear for anyone who just skims the thread. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

[Darc_Vader]

I need a ruling actually, because eldritch canon reads "make a ranged spell attack" and does not specify an artificer spell attack, could you use your warlock spell attack to do it?

I’m not really sure what you’re asking here, but there’s no such thing as an ‘Artificer spell attack’ or a ‘warlock spell attack’. If you mean can you use your Cha for the attack then no, any class features only reference the class they come from; a spell attack from any Artificer feature would have to use Int unless explicitly overridden by another feature (of which I don’t think there actually are any that would do that).

[Jacobo1226]

That's fair, and that's why I said it's arguable - it feels more questionable to me than Spiritual Weapon + Hex, and as a DM I'd lean towards the more restrictive RAI. And when you're talking about stuff in a guide, you should stay away from questionable stuff, or at least signpost it with "check this with your DM first".

I also realized that you weren't applying Arcane Firearm to Eldritch Blast, but I just wanted to make it explicitly clear for anyone who just skims the thread. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

No problem! I really enjoy the insight, I'm not new to building characters but I am new to putting the thoughts to various forums so I don't know the nettiquete yet. Even with not applying the extra 2d6 I think the extra 4d6+20 from eb and hex over firebolt might be worth it for a multiclass because of how everything scales with good old cantrips. Is there any other unique artificer-warlock combos you can think of? The alchemist one blew my mind because I've been trying super hard to come up with ways to make the elixirs more useful but the warlock short rest slots completely slipped my mind!

[Jacobo1226]

I’m not really sure what you’re asking here, but there’s no such thing as an ‘Artificer spell attack’ or a ‘warlock spell attack’. If you mean can you use your Cha for the attack then no, any class features only reference the class they come from; a spell attack from any Artificer feature would have to use Int unless explicitly overridden by another feature (of which I don’t think there actually are any that would do that).

What I was specifically asking is because the ability itself did not specify a spellcasting feature, could you use another spellcasting feature to make the spell attack? I get how it works with spells but because it's a spereate ability that creates an object I was wondering if it might be different. Your reply that every class feature is self referential seems to clear it up though, thanks!

[Darc_Vader]

What I was specifically asking is because the ability itself did not specify a spellcasting feature, could you use another spellcasting feature to make the spell attack? I get how it works with spells but because it's a spereate ability that creates an object I was wondering if it might be different. Your reply that every class feature is self referential seems to clear it up though, thanks!

Well I’m glad I could help even though I didn’t know what I was responding to.

[Dork_Forge]

No problem! I really enjoy the insight, I'm not new to building characters but I am new to putting the thoughts to various forums so I don't know the nettiquete yet. Even with not applying the extra 2d6 I think the extra 4d6+20 from eb and hex over firebolt might be worth it for a multiclass because of how everything scales with good old cantrips. Is there any other unique artificer-warlock combos you can think of? The alchemist one blew my mind because I've been trying super hard to come up with ways to make the elixirs more useful but the warlock short rest slots completely slipped my mind!

You need to take into account the steep ASI cost of that build (maxing Cha and presumably Int, whilst also have a 14 Dex and at least a 12 Con, when you're offsetting your ASIs by 2 levels, that's going to be painful) and consider at the levels you're talking about an Artificer would probably be using Shatter SSI+Arcane Firearm as a cantrip substitute. Then there's the action economy cost, assuming that you already have your turrets summoned (which is a toss up and being generous), you'll lose out on one turn turret damage for Hex and another for Hexblades Curse, the average combat is 3 rounds, an Artillerist can't really afford to lose 2 of them and still feel like an Artillerist not a wannabe Warlock. Whilst you CAN use Enhanced Focus to offset your to hit with EB, your damage will still be lower from AB, overall you won't be that much better off than just being an Artillerist or just being a Warlock.

[Jacobo1226]

You need to take into account the steep ASI cost of that build (maxing Cha and presumably Int, whilst also have a 14 Dex and at least a 12 Con, when you're offsetting your ASIs by 2 levels, that's going to be painful) and consider at the levels you're talking about an Artificer would probably be using Shatter SSI+Arcane Firearm as a cantrip substitute. Then there's the action economy cost, assuming that you already have your turrets summoned (which is a toss up and being generous), you'll lose out on one turn turret damage for Hex and another for Hexblades Curse, the average combat is 3 rounds, an Artillerist can't really afford to lose 2 of them and still feel like an Artillerist not a wannabe Warlock. Whilst you CAN use Enhanced Focus to offset your to hit with EB, your damage will still be lower from AB, overall you won't be that much better off than just being an Artillerist or just being a Warlock.

Fair criticisms, I think for single targets it might still be worth it but that might also be because most of my play groups games involve longer combats, typically 5 or more rounds, in the three round average though I am inclined to agree. I think in actual play I would not use the hex blades curse unless it is a BBEG or a prolonged fight, should have made that part more clear. Is there any more useful combos you can think of involving the two Classes? The alchemist warlock suggestion was actually pretty nice, I'm wondering if theres any more anyone can find.
Edit: the reason I made the assumption of having hex and the turrets active is because 1. The turrets are usually active in my experience because you can just create them ahead of an expected encounter or at the beginning of a dungeon / encounter area.
2. Most optimization builds I read make the assumption that all abilities are active going into the fight ie I see alot of sorcadin and padlock builds that revolve around walking into a fight with both mirror image and haste up or something like that

[Amechra]

No problem! I really enjoy the insight, I'm not new to building characters but I am new to putting the thoughts to various forums so I don't know the nettiquete yet. Even with not applying the extra 2d6 I think the extra 4d6+20 from eb and hex over firebolt might be worth it for a multiclass because of how everything scales with good old cantrips. Is there any other unique artificer-warlock combos you can think of? The alchemist one blew my mind because I've been trying super hard to come up with ways to make the elixirs more useful but the warlock short rest slots completely slipped my mind!

Staying away from Hexblade (because it's a crutch, and all of the Artificer subclasses already let you use your Intelligence for some kind of violence)...

1) If you have Improved Pact Weapon and "bind" a magic weapon as your Pact Weapon, you can use it as a focus for both your Artificer and Warlock spells.

2) In weird "wait, that's not RAI at all" territory... Pact Weapons aren't magical items unless they were a magic weapon beforehand. If they ever publish an Artificer infusion that buffs weapons without granting a bonus to attack and damage rolls, you'll be able to stack it with Improved Pact Weapon.

3) Battle Smiths can resurrect their Steel Defender by spending an action and a spell slot. You can coffeelock your companion, if you're in a weird game with tons of short rests and rare long rests.

Honestly, I can't really think of anything else that doesn't go into UA material.

[Jacobo1226]

Staying away from Hexblade (because it's a crutch, and all of the Artificer subclasses already let you use your Intelligence for some kind of violence)...

1) If you have Improved Pact Weapon and "bind" a magic weapon as your Pact Weapon, you can use it as a focus for both your Artificer and Warlock spells.

2) In weird "wait, that's not RAI at all" territory... Pact Weapons aren't magical items unless they were a magic weapon beforehand. If they ever publish an Artificer infusion that buffs weapons without granting a bonus to attack and damage rolls, you'll be able to stack it with Improved Pact Weapon.

3) Battle Smiths can resurrect their Steel Defender by spending an action and a spell slot. You can coffeelock your companion, if you're in a weird game with tons of short rests and rare long rests.

Honestly, I can't really think of anything else that doesn't go into UA material.

Ooohhhh now I'm thinking up some sort of artlock (or wartificer?) That uses magical pact weapons and smacks people using a combination of infusions and invocations, just a really weird toolbox character.

[Evaar]

You need to take into account the steep ASI cost of that build (maxing Cha and presumably Int, whilst also have a 14 Dex and at least a 12 Con, when you're offsetting your ASIs by 2 levels, that's going to be painful) and consider at the levels you're talking about an Artificer would probably be using Shatter SSI+Arcane Firearm as a cantrip substitute.

I think the build does have some weaknesses, but keep in mind a 10th level artificer can grant themselves 19 intelligence with an infusion. The journey there would still be bumpy, but if you're in a campaign that starts at high level you can mostly get around the MADness.

[MaxWilson]

I think the build does have some weaknesses, but keep in mind a 10th level artificer can grant themselves 19 intelligence with an infusion. The journey there would still be bumpy, but if you're in a campaign that starts at high level you can mostly get around the MADness.

Not all that bumpy though. The best Artillerist turret at low levels is the Protector cannon, which runs mostly off of a random d8. Having INT 18 vs. 14 or 16 will let you start combat with 10 THP instead of 8 or 9, but that's not a big deal. The second-best Artillerist turret is the flamethrower, which is save-for-half, meaning that you only gain +2.5% of the full damage amount for each +2 to INT.

I wouldn't want to play an INT 6 Artificer because your number of spells prepared would be so low, but INT 14ish isn't too bad. When it comes to spell save DCs you just compensate by reserving your spells for when there's a large number of targets, but honestly Artificers have so few spell slots that they can't really afford to do much offensive spellcasting anyway.

[Dork_Forge]

I think the build does have some weaknesses, but keep in mind a 10th level artificer can grant themselves 19 intelligence with an infusion. The journey there would still be bumpy, but if you're in a campaign that starts at high level you can mostly get around the MADness.

That's true, but you still need at least a 13 and won't get that infusion until 12th level overall, seeing as basically everything to do with an Artificer keys off Int in some way, that's going to be a very bumpy road if you even ever reach the end of it.

[MaxWilson]

That's true, but you still need at least a 13 and won't get that infusion until 12th level overall, seeing as basically everything to do with an Artificer keys off Int in some way, that's going to be a very bumpy road if you even ever reach the end of it.

It doesn't take high Int to make a bunch of cool gadgets for the party and serve as an alt-cleric.

[Dork_Forge]

It doesn't take high Int to make a bunch of cool gadgets for the party and serve as an alt-cleric.

This build isn't serving as an alt Cleric, it's aimed at being a damage dealer using a Warlock dip and whilst we have been through before your opinions on middling Int on an Artificer, your Int affects some of those cool gadgets you make for the party (like the Radiant Weapon save DC). It's incredibly MAD and taxes the bonus action economy thats needed for the turrets.

[Jacobo1226]

Great discussions! Dork Forge, I think his point about being an alt cleric was more aimed at the multiclass as a whole, not the specific build, but I also 100% understand your reservations over the asi problem. My mindset going into the build was that you would go some combination of race that allows you to get int and cha to start at 16 in each. Plain human( using points buy you can get that 16 int 16 cha 14 dex 12 con you need) or half elf (somewhat more difficult but you can end up with that same spread-1 str or wis) works great with points buy because you can maintain that and have a decent DeX or con left. From there it was a matter of using the fact that the cantrip scales based on level. In addition to the damage, the free invocation slot not used on agonizing blast and the two short rest spell slots that can be used on healing or shield or more turrets makes it feel more addative and beneficial.

I would personally bump int first and lean on my enhanced focus to make up for my eldritch blast accuracy. I think overall it's worth it because if gwm builds have taught me anything it's that enemies typically have very reachable a.c. amounts and the extra damage is worth its weight in gold in 5e.

By character level 5 (2 war, 3 art) your only noticable difference will be a +7 instead of a +8 to hit with enhanced focus, which is the same as a normal non artificer caster at that level. Which you are trading for (2d6 if you dont count the turret) 3d6+ 6 damage. Your ac will still be the same with your 14 dex and you will be slighlty squishier, but overall you are more effective as a damage dealer. I mentioned hexblades curse because it's a fun idea but in most play I'd simply use turn 1 hex turn 2-3 blast

When you reach character level 10 there is the biggest difference in a non multiclass artificer and multiclass artificer, this is the low point of the build but once you hit character level 11-12 you immediately take that lead again with the additional ray from eldritch blast and your infusions all getting an upgrade. This was more built around being a single target build, where an artificer using SSI scorching ray was up against my wartificer, If aoe was called for you could just also use the SSI on shatter. I think the fact that it pulls ahead at low levels and high levels makes up for a close middle, but that's also just my opinion.
Any feedback on the validity of this idea would be greatly appreciated!

[Amechra]

If you're planning on keeping your Int and Cha as high as possible and UA is a possibility... Armorer is right there. It effectively would let you get away with dumping Strength and Dexterity.

[MaxWilson]

Great discussions! Dork Forge, I think his point about being an alt cleric was more aimed at the multiclass as a whole, not the specific build, but I also 100% understand your reservations over the asi problem. My mindset going into the build was that you would go some combination of race that allows you to get int and cha to start at 16 in each. Plain human( using points buy you can get that 16 int 16 cha 14 dex 12 con you need) or half elf (somewhat more difficult but you can end up with that same spread-1 str or wis) works great with points buy because you can maintain that and have a decent DeX or con left.

Yuan-ti and Changeling also work. +2 to Charisma, +1 to Intelligence.

P.S. I don't however generally recommend trying to combine Hex (or Hexblade's Curse) and Force Ballistae. I think your real problem there is not going to be MADness, it's bonus action overload. Choose one or the other on any given target, not both.

[Jacobo1226]

If you're planning on keeping your Int and Cha as high as possible and UA is a possibility... Armorer is right there. It effectively would let you get away with dumping Strength and Dexterity.

I was avoiding UA for the sake of the focus they usually put on adventurers legal builds, I do absolutely LOVE armorer to bits though. Really helps me live my dream of being lex luthor in 5e and fighting an empyrean with a very familiar symbol on his chest.

[Jacobo1226]

Yuan-ti and Changeling also work. +2 to Charisma, +1 to Intelligence.

P.S. I don't however generally recommend trying to combine Hex (or Hexblade's Curse) and Force Ballistae. I think your real problem there is not going to be MADness, it's bonus action overload. Choose one or the other on any given target, not both.

Ohhhh completely forgot about both of those races, good find! I think the scribe gnome would work too.
I think the action economy is generally fine in most cases but that's also just my opinion. The discussions around this have deffinently made me realize it's not exactly the most powerful build, but it still feels like it would be good enough to bring to a table. Thanks for the help!

[Triple_M]

The alchemist one blew my mind because I've been trying super hard to come up with ways to make the elixirs more useful but the warlock short rest slots completely slipped my mind!

Didn't think this would be my first comment considering how long I've been using Pete's amazing guide. Anyways, I agree that the Alchemist does feel a little more limited, especially compared to the other two subclasses. Both because it's special trait uses an already limited resource and, unlike the other two, doesn't provide any bonus action economy.

That's why, and I know this is a bit off topic but I just wanted to mention, I recommend adding/asking your DM for a subtle homebrew rule to the elixirs. Keep everything the same as far as spell slot usage, action to create, same available elixirs, but make it a bonus action to consume. I've been using an Alchemist + Hexblade build with this rule and it's worked out very well so far. My stats have definitely suffered with ASI requirements, but the pact magic combo has made it very worth it, and experimental builds have yielded positive results as well. It really makes the alchemist feel like a proper support subclass that doesn't just play second fiddle to Artillerist and Battle Smith.

[Jacobo1226]

It really makes the alchemist feel like a proper support subclass that doesn't just play second fiddle to Artillerist and Battle Smith.

I feel the same way honestly, alchemist feels weird because the other two both get good bonus action economy, and "free" abilities that increase their capabilities. Why they didnt do the same for alchemists is beyond me. Beyond that the fact that both subclasses and the UA subclass get the shield spell but alchemist honest really hurts. If every subclass but one is going to get it as a subclass spell maybe it shouldn't have been a subclass spell, and just been on the list instead. That being said I've seen some fun discussion online about A. The bonus action rule you mentioned, and B. Giving them access to primal slavery as a cantrip. Together that bumped alchemist from seeming less to being an interesting alternative because your damage and healing are now different enough from battle Smith to be unique and worth playing. The big kicker for me is the fact that battle Smith can just do so much that the alchemist can, and also be better at damage dealing. Maybe I'm missing something though, I would love to be wrong.

[PeteNutButter]

Obligatory weigh in regarding Artificer/Warlock:

This is a neat concept, and would be tricky due to MADness. Ultimately, I have a hard time calling something optimal when another multiclass combination can already can the same thing (or better) at less cost. If we are looking at great ways to make EB users do something with their bonus actions, sadly the artificer/warlock can never compete with a sorlock (I know blech). There is no turret to kill, and while it may use slightly more resources (SP) in a protracted fight, it'll far outpace that turret damage by doing another quickened EB, all while being SAD.

While the artificer has some solid bonus action output, I think it's not quite the thing that justifies a MAD build, at least not while other more competitive choices are available. The best bits in artificer are things that no other class can manage, such as being Int SAD and abusing the items, etc. Could still be fun to play though.

EDIT: If I had to play an artificer/lock, I'd probably see how I can play a more supporty character. I'm not entirely sure of the details, but that's what jumps in my mind.

[MaxWilson]

There is no turret to kill, and while it may use slightly more resources (SP) in a protracted fight, it'll far outpace that turret damage by doing another quickened EB, all while being SAD.

This seems very misguided to me. Quickened EB, at mid-levels, is 2 SP for a chance at ~20 damage (plus control). Against moderate AC call it about 14 damage per quickened EB unless you're exploiting Spike Growth or similar. A flamethrower turret is 9 damage, save for half, to everyone in the AoE, which can easily be ~30 damage, save for half. Because it's at will you can do things a sorlock could not afford such as Dodging to buy extra time with which to hose enemies down with your at-will AoE.

At anything except the lowest levels, not having a turret to kill is a disadvantage for the sorlock, because enemies who waste time attacking an AC 18 high-HP turret which you can recreate for almost nothing are attacking the wrong target.

[Jacobo1226]

Obligatory weigh in regarding Artificer/Warlock:

This is a neat concept, and would be tricky due to MADness. Ultimately, I have a hard time calling something optimal when another multiclass combination can already can the same thing (or better) at less cost.

Ahhhhhh that makes sense. I was considering optimization against base classes, not other multiclasses, now your rating makes more sense to me. While deffinently not gold by any means I personally rated it at least average in terms of a multiclass. But you're right about sorlock doing it easier/better.

On your note of playing a more supportive character. A celestial warlock/ alchemist can finally do something more beneficial with their bonus action, and use the cantrip scaling to do at least okay damage, and the short rest slots giving you a few more resilience potions every short rest. The idea probably works better with divine soul sorcerer but that's something at least. How would you build it?