Final Fantasy Guild Mafia

[CaoimhinTheCape]

And cao's claimed ninja, with no counterclaim (public or private) that I'm aware of.

I'll go public with it then, I am the Ninja and I was attacked last night (honestly, kinda flattered that I was the NK). The narration referring to the shadow double dying and the whole discussion Day 1 of:

Interesting... How do you know that it'll take only one lynch to kill her so surely?

Was because I was the Ninja.

---

Elenna, question for you regarding your vote.

Okay, so yeah, wolves definitely hit the Ninja.

I am going to vote CaoimhintheCape, because they asked me if I was shielding Kinro, I said no, and then the Wolves' Target whiffed.
Because when I said no, it was a deception.

I read this theory as the Wolves targeting Kinro because I theoretically passed bad info to the Wolf team. Meaning Wolf target was Kinro the Blue Mage, not the Ninja.

I'm down to test Xi's theory by voting Caoimhin.

So you say Wolves hit the Ninja, but also support the theory that Wolves targeted Kinro? Am I missing something?

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Vote Count (3 minimum to lynch)

Valmark (1): JeenLeen
Helgraf (1): Valmark
CaoimhintheCape (2): Xihirli, Elenna
Apogee1 (1): AvatarVecna
Elenna (1): CaoimhintheCape

Not Voting (1): Apogee1
No Posts (3): Unavenger, The Outsider, Kinro

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Actually, to bring up what I've mentioned in private: Black Mage (confirmed kill on a Wolf) and Ninja (attacked by Wolves) could start a town network. You should probably wait until more people post (in case someone counterclaims) but if you let me know who you are we can start a confirmed group.

[AvatarVecna]

From the private chat I'm in, it sounds like AV has most if not all of the roles claimed and has told at least some folk she has most of the roles claimed.

AV: is there any good reason you shouldn't share now, and we try to discern the results or coordinate? I'd like to hear your answer to Elenna's question.

It comes down to two things: first, I don't have claims from everybody yet; second, I'm not sure this is a game where mass-claiming can work the way it usually does.

If I had claims from everybody, and there were counterclaims, revealing the counterclaims would be valuable because it means one of them is lying for some reason.

But also, in a normal game, the reason there would be multiple people claiming the same role is because there are certain roles that are guaranteed scum, and so nobody would claim those roles. If this game was like that (say, the Thief/Ninja/Dark Knight are always scum), then nobody would claim Thief, or Ninja, or Dark Knight, they'd claim a safe role...and somebody else is claiming that role too because they're being honest. That would have two people claiming White Mage (for example), and one of them must be a wolf because the only reason to lie as part of a mass-claim is if you're a wolf trying not to get caught. But in this game?

You can't tell me, with any degree of certainty, that the remaining scumteam isn't White Mage + Blue Mage. It probably isn't - there's 110 possibilities, and that's only one of them - but you can't say for certain that the two active scumpartners didn't honestly claim their role D1. You can't be sure, because any role could be scum or town. So if everybody claimed publicly, or heck, if everybody claimed privately to me and then I posted it like a putz, it wouldn't necessarily give town info beyond a possibility of coordinating. What it would definitely do is tell wolves who's who, which is info they didn't have before. Now they know who the necromancer is and can kill them early. Now they know who the Dark Knight is, and can make sure to leave them for last. Like, if we had done a mass-claim yesterday, there's no way the scumteam would've intentionally targeted the Ninja last night.

There's only two roles that should be public right now, maybe: Ninja and Black Mage. The wolves already know who the Ninja is (since they tried to kill him last night), so may as well give that info to town as well. Black Mage should reveal if they're willing to trade anonymity for town leadership - because Ninja and Black Mage are now locktown, barring some bigbrain plays by the wolfteam. Any kind of massclaim right now is going to depend on not just role honestly, but targeting honesty among all villagers, so that we can try and catch the wolves pulling a sneaky. And any attempt to catch anybody shouldn't be coordinated publicly, it should be coordinated privately by the two locktowns.

If you really wanna claim, give it a bit of time to test the waters, and then later today private-claim to the Ninja or the Black Mage. Let them coordinate all the night actions, in such a way that nobody knows if they're being tested for loyalty or not.

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So...quick question for people: suppose that I was online near the end of the D1 lynch, and I was snooping around profiles. And I saw that somebody who was voting for Xihirli was online after Xi claimed White Mage...and they didn't change their vote? What would that say to you?

[Xihirli]

That they wanted to kill me, or didn't believe me.
One of those.

[The Outsider]

Yay, I'm trusted!
At present, I'm willing to join the wagon on Helgraf. I might change this shortly, there's a lot to analyze here.

EDIT: So far, Helgraf has made arguments that I mostly agree with, and doesn't come off as particularly wolfish to me. Mild town read, could be wrong.
Apogee1, however, has generally contributed the baseline while seemingly remaining under the radar. Plus, it could be a coincidence, but it seems odd to me that they picked the inactive player who just happened to be town to start a wagon on.

[Apogee1]

Apogee1, however, has generally contributed the baseline while seemingly remaining under the radar. Plus, it could be a coincidence, but it seems odd to me that they picked the inactive player who just happened to be town to start a wagon on.

Is there a reason I, as a wolf, would want to start a wagon on an inactive player at all when (at that point) either Valmark or Xihirli were places I could vote and would be significantly better (from a strategic perspective) kills to get?

Also yeah I haven't done that much yet.

Long walls of mechanics sometimes make my eyes glaze over

And I like mechanics

It's just harder to muster up the energy to do much in this thread where we can get halfway to solving the game like a puzzle using only role stuff.

[Elenna]

Yeah, I got super confused and thought Xi's theory involved Xi telling Caomhin she *would* target Kinro, which would explain wolves not targeting Kinro... probably shouldn't skim read the thread while working.

In that case I don't have any particular suspects now, I'll take a closer look this evening and place a new vote.

@AV: if I'm the person you saw online, that might be because I just leave the site open on my browser?

[Helgraf]

I leave my machine on 24/7, barring blackouts and the like. I also tend to leave my tabs open overnight so I can pick things up in the morning (or, in the case of today, post-work). I currently have 14 tabs open counting the one I'm using to post this reply. So yeah, it's incredibly likely you saw me as online during that period.

My biggest suspicion was that that bandwagon was meant to save Xihirli by the wold team - so I stuck to my position. With the counterwagon finding a wolf/scum that seems significantly less likely now given the small playerbase of this game. Resultingly I'm currently voting Apogee1.

[Apogee1]

Cool

I'm the beastmaster

Helgraf unless we get some mech info elsewhere

[JeenLeen]

I think we would learn the most from Xihirli, Apogee, Valmark, or AvatarVecna dying. The former three have links to the oddness D1, and the latter has a network which could be useful to have confirmed or denied as town-made. Though that networking might matter less with a confirmed Ninja!Town.

Since there's a growing wagon on Apogee1, I'll move my vote there as well. I still find others more suspicious than him, but nobody seems very suspicious, so I'm leaning towards voting based on whose death will yield intel. And his death at least seems probable as opposed to unlikely to occur.

I'll also note that Unavenger and Kinro have been quiet. But I definitely think we should leave Kinro alive since they are an extra baner. And it's early enough D2 that being quiet isn't in itself suspicious in anyway.

Also, I don't want to claim publicly yet, but I've told my role to Cao and AV.

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EDIT: meant to add Kinro to the list of those whose deaths would yield intel, but I definitely think we want him alive so far. I thought I forgot to list someone.

[Apogee1]

Really wagon developing on me here

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I think we would learn the most from Xihirli, Apogee, Valmark, or AvatarVecna dying. The former three have links to the oddness D1, and the latter has a network which could be useful to have confirmed or denied as town-made. Though that networking might matter less with a confirmed Ninja!Town.

Why does having links to oddness mean wolf?

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Also killing the claimed watcher is a double considering that's a top three role for town

[CaoimhinTheCape]

So...quick question for people: suppose that I was online near the end of the D1 lynch, and I was snooping around profiles. And I saw that somebody who was voting for Xihirli was online after Xi claimed White Mage...and they didn't change their vote? What would that say to you?

I wouldn't read too much into it. Xi is basically confirmed White Mage, but that doesn't mean Xi is Town. If they did see the post they probably didn't trust Xi.

Is there a reason I, as a wolf, would want to start a wagon on an inactive player at all when (at that point) either Valmark or Xihirli were places I could vote and would be significantly better (from a strategic perspective) kills to get?

So, if Valmark or Xihirli are Wolf buddies with you, then it would be a better move to pick a third option. That said, unless all 3 of you are wolves (plus Johnny Patches) it makes sense to push for one wagon over the other.

---

That being said, I'm definitely not sold on Apogee being a Wolf, and I'd very much like to have competing wagons. vote: Helgraf

---

Vote Count (3 minimum to lynch)

Helgraf (3): Valmark, Apogee1, CaoimhintheCape
CaoimhintheCape (1): Xihirli
Apogee1 (4): AvatarVecna, The Outsider, Helgraf, JeenLeen

Not Voting (1): Elenna
No Posts (2): Unavenger, Kinro

[AvatarVecna]

I'll continue saying this until it sinks in: it doesn't matter how important your role normally is to have on town, you could still be a wolf because of the set-up. Being a role that's normally lock-town and highly important doesn't guarantee that you're a townie even if you're telling the truth about your role (which I think you are).

CaoimhinTheCape: Xihirli
Helgraf: Valmark, Apogee1
Apogee1: AvatarVecna, The Outsider, Helgraf, JeenLeen
Elenna: CaoimhinTheCape

Hmm...will investigate the reasoning behind the Apogee wagon.

EDIT: Derp. Apogee isn't voting himself!

[Apogee1]

I'll continue saying this until it sinks in: it doesn't matter how important your role normally is to have on town, you could still be a wolf because of the set-up. Being a role that's normally lock-town and highly important doesn't guarantee that you're a townie even if you're telling the truth about your role (which I think you are).

CaoimhinTheCape: Xihirli
Helgraf: Valmark, Apogee1
Apogee1: AvatarVecna, The Outsider, Helgraf, JeenLeen
Elenna: CaoimhinTheCape

Hmm...will investigate the reasoning behind the Apogee wagon.

EDIT: Derp. Apogee isn't voting himself!

Well yes

But where at least half the people voting for me have expressed hesitation I am a wolf

If we are voting off people for eh reasons let's stay away from the top roles

[AvatarVecna]

Spoiler: Apogee1 ISO

Show

If I vote Valmark, than he votes me right?

Easy distancing achieved

Null, weakly leaning scum. Jokes about distancing. It's worth noting that Valmark votes him back, then explains why he voted that way even though basically everybody here should already know. It feels...weird. Not necessarily scummy, but...weird.

JeenLeen probably town

Idk if I actually think Valmark's a wolf though

Meh I expect to have a town network d3 and solve the game thataway to an extent if the scholar isn't a villager I'm suing

Though it would be nice to find a couple villagers or a wolf through in-thread means

But anyways whose up for sending mass qt's this game

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That's a quick four votes onto Valmark...

Weak scum lean. That strikethrough feels like it could be a slip too. Finds it odd that their randvote turned into a real wagon...I can relate to that.

There's a bunch of math I could get into on this

But pretty much not voting someone off increases the chance of the wolves winning more than voting someone at absolute random

Of course, the goal is to be at least a bit better than random

(Exceptions may apply in really PR heavy set-ups but you know let's stick with the general case)

(Yes I know this is a PR heavy set-up)

Null, leaning town.

QTs already going wild yup sounds about right

Null.

Spoiler: The inactive vote

Show

Here's the votecount before Apogee's post.

Valmark (4): Apogee1, JeenLeen, Helgraf, The Outsider
AvatarVecna (1): Unavenger
CaoimhintheCape(1): Xihirli
Apogee1 (1): Valmark
Xihirli (3): AvatarVecna, CaoimhintheCape, Elenna

Poke inactives for a minute? BookWombat

Also w a g o n o m i c s

And here is the vote count after Apogee's post.

Valmark (3): JeenLeen, Helgraf, The Outsider
AvatarVecna (1): Unavenger
CaoimhintheCape(1): Xihirli
Apogee1 (1): Valmark
Xihirli (3): AvatarVecna, CaoimhintheCape, Elenna
BookWombat (1): Apogee1

It's also worth mentioning that the post in question was made ~14 hours before EoD, and it's the last post Apogee made until after BookWombat flipped town.

Slight town lean. Dropping a vote off a leading wagon onto an unvoted inactive player and then disappearing for 14 hours isn't a wolf trying to set up a counterwagon to save their scumbuddy, it's a townie knowing they won't be around to change their vote and not wanting to just leave it on a leading wagon in case some major shift occurs while they're asleep/at work/whatever.

Apogee is one person who switched off of Valmark and onto somebody with no votes and then disappeared. Blaming them for an inactive getting lynched is absolving all the blame of the five people who decided it was a wagon worth joining - including myself. But with over 12 hours to go until EoD, and there being two wagons at the time of the vote change, it's not realistic to say that Apogee's vote was intended to "save" anybody.

Oops forgot about the strikethrough bit

Going inactivies is unfortunate

But because of the set-up really the dragoon is not a great loss because it can't confirm other's roles anyways

And this is mech heavy enough it's solveable

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I do say this aware I started the inactive wagon and I get why it's neccesary

But still feels bad

Guess we need more posting :P

Null leaning scum. Don't like just how much "sorry for getting that townie killed" that's usually more of a scum thing.

So Xihirli....

Claim your doc target probably?

Or at least set up a network privately

Cause that person is approximately always town

If one were to misremember D1 as Apogee manipulating town into lynching BookWombat to save Xihirli, this post would confirm their unfounded suspicions in that it looks like Apogee is trying to give Xihirli towncred.

As such suspicions are based on faulty evidence, to me it looks more like somebody who just didn't read the narration closely enough and is assuming the obvious "white mage protects blue mage" setup worked as intended.

Oops yeah forgot the ninja existed

Ninja if you want to claim you're probably town and the wolves (presuming the wolves didn't shoot their own ((is that even allowed here?))) already know who you are anyways

Null. A wolf could've thought of this (indeed, it would be on their mind), but I also thought of this. I didn't state it at the time, but the understanding that wolves would know who the Ninja was, and some private communication I had with Apogee, made it feel like they were trying to set themselves up as definitely-not-a-wolf, and that's why I put a placeholder vote on them with no explanation.

Is there a reason I, as a wolf, would want to start a wagon on an inactive player at all when (at that point) either Valmark or Xihirli were places I could vote and would be significantly better (from a strategic perspective) kills to get?

Also yeah I haven't done that much yet.

Long walls of mechanics sometimes make my eyes glaze over

And I like mechanics

It's just harder to muster up the energy to do much in this thread where we can get halfway to solving the game like a puzzle using only role stuff.

Slight town lean. This feels pretty genuine to me, and especially the part about wagonomics. Unless one wishes to make the argument that we started with four wolves, and those four wolves were Jonny/Valmark/Xihirli/Apogee, scum!Apogee could've voted Valmark or Xihirli and gotten an active townie killed instead of cunningly tricking half of town to vote an inactive by disappearing for 14 hours.

Cool

I'm the beastmaster

Helgraf unless we get some mech info elsewhere

Null. Claims mean nothing, although even in a setup like this I imagine scum would be a bit more leery to claim than town, just on general paranoia.

Really wagon developing on me here

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Why does having links to oddness mean wolf?

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Also killing the claimed watcher is a double considering that's a top three role for town

Null.

[Valmark]

Null, weakly leaning scum. Jokes about distancing. It's worth noting that Valmark votes him back, then explains why he voted that way even though basically everybody here should already know. It feels...weird. Not necessarily scummy, but...weird.

There's two new people, that's why I explained it. Well, new as in I never saw them play yet.

[Kinro]

Not so much 'being quiet' as 'being at work all day'. I can confirm that the white mage targeted me last night. Thanks!

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There's only one person I'm certain is town. I also trust White Mage, of course, but they're voting up the ninja right now, for some reason. Since I don't have any particular preference right now, I'm going to go ahead and vote with know town. Hopefully, the Black Mage will contact them privately. But either way, vote: Helgraf.

[The Outsider]

Is there a reason I, as a wolf, would want to start a wagon on an inactive player at all when (at that point) either Valmark or Xihirli were places I could vote and would be significantly better (from a strategic perspective) kills to get?

That's a good point, and not one I'd considered. Since I'm going under the assumption that Xihirli is Town, I'm going to switch my vote to Helgraff.
A thought occurs: do we know how many wolves there are?

[AvatarVecna]

That's a good point, and not one I'd considered. Since I'm going under the assumption that Xihirli is Town, I'm going to switch my vote to Helgraff.
A thought occurs: do we know how many wolves there are?

No, but I'd be very surprised if we didn't start with three. It's appropriate for a normal game of this size (2 is too few, 4 is probably too many, so 3 is just right), but also the ways of tipping the scales in a normal game (giving wolves more powerful roles in exchange for only 2 wolves, or giving town powerful roles in exchange for having four wolves, etc) is hard to pull off here because which side gets which powers was randomized too. The lack of neutrals also takes away a potential balancing opportunity.

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For the time being, I'm moving my vote to Valmark.

[Elenna]

Slight town lean on The Outsider for that Johnny vote yesterday, although a d1 poke vote on someone who didn't have any votes yet at that point could still be distancing. But in general, Outsider was pushing "vote the inactives" more than I would expect from a wolf with an inactive buddy.

I leave my machine on 24/7, barring blackouts and the like. I also tend to leave my tabs open overnight so I can pick things up in the morning (or, in the case of today, post-work). I currently have 14 tabs open counting the one I'm using to post this reply. So yeah, it's incredibly likely you saw me as online during that period.

My biggest suspicion was that that bandwagon was meant to save Xihirli by the wold team - so I stuck to my position. With the counterwagon finding a wolf/scum that seems significantly less likely now given the small playerbase of this game. Resultingly I'm currently voting Apogee1.

Wait, this feels like it's supposed to be an explanation for the Apogee vote, but it's... not? This explains why you're no longer voting Xihirli but it doesn't explain why you picked Apogee, specifically.

Helgraf keeps doing stuff that feels just slightly wolfy to me (this and the "voting Valmark to ensure a lynch" thing early D1). I wish I had more experience with their playstyle to tell if this is normal for them or not, but I'd be fine with a Helgraf lynch today.

Cool

I'm the beastmaster

Helgraf unless we get some mech info elsewhere

Would also like an explanation for this vote. I don't think you particularly expressed suspicion of Helgraf for anything, unless I just missed it?

Also, anyone else feel like people are just kinda ignoring Valmark as a possible vote option? Okay, JeenLeen voted Valmark for information near the start of the day and later moved off, and AV just voted Valmark. But a lot of people feel like they're picking between Apogee and Helgraf, and maybe Xi, without much actual reasoning given, but Valmark hasn't really been brought up again. Wonder what will happen if I put a second vote on Valmark?

[Helgraf]

Yeah well, the biggest part is because it was the only lynch at that time that would have enough votes to get my neck out of the noose.

I have no problem going with another wagon that meets those qualifications that isn't Xil because based on the results of that day's lynch, I don't suspect Xil anymore.

If people think going after Valmark is a better alternate, I'm willing to shift off Apo and onto that, but ultimately right now I'm looking after my own neck, and place or maintain my point accordingly.

[Xihirli]

Due to a private claim, I'm inclined to keep Hellgraf alive. So I will be backing the Valmark wagon, though I don't like it for any particular reason.

[JeenLeen]

The vote swings feel odd. Nobody but me interested in Valmark, but after Apogee gets voted up, interest (including the non-confirmed but well-networked AV) swings to Valmark.
I'm not sure if I want to swing my vote back to Valmark, but I think we'll know a LOT more once someone flips wolf and we can better interpret motivations. Honestly, wouldn't be surprised if finding one wolf reveals the rest.

Not sure what I think of the Helgraf wagon. Did his actions look particularly suspicious to anyone, or is it just him as an alternative to Valmark or Apogee?

[Xihirli]

Honestly I feel like if we don't trust AV it's time to kill them now but I've gotten a promise for further information tomorrow morning.

[Valmark]

The vote swings feel odd. Nobody but me interested in Valmark, but after Apogee gets voted up, interest (including the non-confirmed but well-networked AV) swings to Valmark.
I'm not sure if I want to swing my vote back to Valmark, but I think we'll know a LOT more once someone flips wolf and we can better interpret motivations. Honestly, wouldn't be surprised if finding one wolf reveals the rest.

Not sure what I think of the Helgraf wagon. Did his actions look particularly suspicious to anyone, or is it just him as an alternative to Valmark or Apogee?

I'm voting Helgraf exactly because they look suspicious. First the stuff D1, voting just to get a lynch in (probably the apparent attitude was what bothered me) then they voted Apogee1 for no apparent reason giving one only when prodded, and finally the fact that Helgraf seems to be voting only to survive, which looks more wolf then Town.

[JeenLeen]

Honestly I feel like if we don't trust AV it's time to kill them now but I've gotten a promise for further information tomorrow morning.

If AV hasn't been confirmed by the seer, then I think we have no reason to trust her, any more than we have for anybody else who is being suspected. Plus, she generally has some contingency set up so that her death isn't terrible for the Town (when she is Town), and we probably have a well-organized network by Cao-Ninja. So a mislynch on her probably isn't a terrible cost to Town.

Her promise for additional info is believable, but it's also a way for a wolf to buy time. All that said, everything she's done seems Townish so far. She does that well when she's a wolf, too, though.

All in all, this game has been complicated in that there's been so little to really analyze and discuss so far. We have tidbits of info, but no flips that give us hints to use those tidbits to discern who the wolves are.
But -- looking at 'whose death will give the most intel' -- I guess AV's actually won't be super-informative right now. Her network doesn't need verification, since Cao-Ninja should have a more reliable network. Hopefully with a way to pass it to the Black Mage should he die. So probably we'll learn more if Valmark, Apogee1, or (I guess) Helgraf die. If Valmark dies and flips town, I'll be a bit more suspicious that AV was trying to save Apogee as scum-buddies. So, while I draw attention to AV with my prior post, after thinking of it more in writing this post, I think we'll better off letting her live and seeing if today's lynch reveals anything about her.

[Apogee1]

The vote swings feel odd. Nobody but me interested in Valmark, but after Apogee gets voted up, interest (including the non-confirmed but well-networked AV) swings to Valmark.
I'm not sure if I want to swing my vote back to Valmark, but I think we'll know a LOT more once someone flips wolf and we can better interpret motivations. Honestly, wouldn't be surprised if finding one wolf reveals the rest.

Not sure what I think of the Helgraf wagon. Did his actions look particularly suspicious to anyone, or is it just him as an alternative to Valmark or Apogee?

... I find it interesting you take this angle

When Helgraf was the more proximate wagon to Valmark

And is both a more likely wagon to be saving me than Valmark is and a more likely player to be saved by the Valmark wagon than I am

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Would also like an explanation for this vote. I don't think you particularly expressed suspicion of Helgraf for anything, unless I just missed it?

Also, anyone else feel like people are just kinda ignoring Valmark as a possible vote option? Okay, JeenLeen voted Valmark for information near the start of the day and later moved off, and AV just voted Valmark. But a lot of people feel like they're picking between Apogee and Helgraf, and maybe Xi, without much actual reasoning given, but Valmark hasn't really been brought up again. Wonder what will happen if I put a second vote on Valmark?

Cause it was my counterwagon and I'm certainly of more use to town alive than dead. Also that first vote on Valmark by him is the biggest ping I've gotten this game

I'd consider Valmark but idk

The treatment of him d1 didn't feel particularly like he was a wolf like how he got chucked to a top wagon early kinda for thin reasons

However he does seem to be lacking some of the town!Valmark energy and is a little limper overall.

So I'm considering switching

[Helgraf]

As per prior post Valmark to save my own neck.

[Apogee1]

So if I throw my alignment thoughts down on paper

At least the bits from public info

Kinro and Cao are town. Cao almost certainly for the ninja circumstances and Kinro from how he has played in the thread.

Xihirli is probably? town. I guess watch PR usage but the way she thought she caught Cao from the Kinro thing this morning feels like a hard read to make if she was a wolf who knew she shot Cao.

There exists a black mage who is town but is correct in remaining hidden for now.

That's four town right there.

If the cop exists as town and has a clear (how do we confirm the cop as town? probably don't share this public-ally but talk in network or whatnot) form a network here and blast everyone else and that should hit all but maybe one mafia.

So leaving aside the potential cop and whoever the black mage is

We have

Unavenger, AV, Outsider, Helgraf, Elenna, Valmark, JeenLeen, Me

So

Assume one of these is black mage and definetly town

That's 4 town

Then we have a cop

If the cop is town, then they have a town peek today and we have 6 clear town leaving 5 outside and between the vig and the vote there is probably even a chance to kill one of the "clears" if it comes down to it

If the cop isn't town, then they either have faked a town peek on a mafia or have not. Idek what to do here really

Hope the wolves kill the cop I guess :shrug:

But like

If I look at that list of 7 above, I think I find The Outsider and Elenna marginally townier than the rest

AV hopefully self resolves through network shenanigans

So 2 (I'm assuming? 3 starting wolves in a 13p but idk if that holds in this game)

I'd call them in Valmark, JeenLeen, Helgraf, Unavenger

[AvatarVecna]

I'd prefer the information I've provided to the forming network to be more fully trusted, so AvatarVecna.

[Apogee1]

I'd prefer the information I've provided to the forming network to be more fully trusted, so AvatarVecna.

See when I said I think AV self resolves by network means didn't mean AV self votes and tries to vote themselves off today

On the other hand this is the kinda thing I expect

From both alignments