Level 1 character vs level 13 character

[heavyfuel]

show a list of wealth shenanigans

Shenaningans don't work in a real game though, so your argument is invalid.

not single use items. eternal wands or just normal wands are multiuse items.

These are restricted to low level spells, so I doubt they would be much better than a VoP Wizard

[newguydude1]

These are restricted to low level spells, so I doubt they would be much better than a VoP Wizard

someone posted a invisible flying kobold sneak attacking with venomfire magic.

colossal animated object doing 8d6+13 a hit with duration concentration is a 3rd level spell.
11,800gp to buy a flying colossal animated object. not a spell, a +2 magic weapon. so nothing short of an amf is gonna stop it and he can buy 9.
stone golem costs 50,000gp. if it werent for that "half gp" limit he could get something much more expensive.

Shenaningans don't work in a real game though, so your argument is invalid.

thats like saying wizard is a balanced non-tier-1 character because in your definition of real game wish, gate, simulacrum, planar binding, etc. are all banned cause they're too powerful and therefore a shenanigan thus reducing a wizard to a tier 3 support role that cant do anything without a fighter to buff.

my dm allows me to use colossal animated objects at level 6 from the spell so unless my table is not a real game your wrong about that too.

---

theres also gating in a monster and just paying it in gold to do the deed which would take 1day/cl at most.

[heavyfuel]

someone posted a invisible flying kobold sneak attacking with venomfire magic.

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)

thats like saying wizard is a balanced non-tier-1 character because in your definition of real game wish, gate, simulacrum, planar binding, etc. are all banned cause they're too powerful and therefore a shenanigan thus reducing a wizard to a tier 3 support role that cant do anything without a fighter to buff.

That's like saying the Monk is a Tier 1 class because they can buy a Candle of Invocation. Is this really the argument you're trying to make? Just because you have 9000gp it doesn't mean you will start chaining gates.

[newguydude1]

That's like saying the Monk is a Tier 1 class because they can buy a Candle of Invocation. Is this really the argument you're trying to make? Just because you have 9000gp it doesn't mean you will start chaining gates.

no, candle of invocation is not exclusive to monk. all characters can use it. monk is tier 5 because naked he does nothing and unlike artificer he has no interaction with wealth.

i agree with your argument that single use magic items is probably not the way to go here unless you can buy a good deal of it like 50 or something so you can adventurer with it indefinitely without running into cash flow problems. but powerful permanent items or many use items are fair game even if they result in an army of colossal animated objects. because this is magic. and this magic is prevalent in d&d 3.5.

[SirNibbles]

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)



That's like saying the Monk is a Tier 1 class because they can buy a Candle of Invocation. Is this really the argument you're trying to make? Just because you have 9000gp it doesn't mean you will start chaining gates.

11 HP, thank you very much! (And you still have a bit of money to play with to get more). Also you can bump the Venomfire up to CL 9 to do an extra 1d6 (54,000 gp instead of 48,000).

I am not an expert on ToB, but I do believe that the Forsaker is going to struggle to hit an invisible enemy, especially since they can attack and then relocate. Unless you have a way to see them, none of your targeted strikes or maneuvers can be used.

__

[heavyfuel]

11 HP, thank you very much! (And you still have a bit of money to play with to get more). Also you can bump the Venomfire up to CL 9 to do an extra 1d6 (54,000 gp instead of 48,000).

I am not an expert on ToB, but I do believe that the Forsaker is going to struggle to hit an invisible enemy, especially since they can attack and then relocate. Unless you have a way to see them, none of your targeted strikes or maneuvers can be used.

__

Sorry about the missing 1HP

Still, a swordsage can pinpoint you with Scent and Listen Checks and then attack whichever square you're at. You have 50% miss chance, sure, but that doesn't stop AoE (which they have access to)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)

You haven't actually shown your work. All you've done is complain that whatever solution is proposed 'doesn't prove anything' or is 'shenanigans' that would get banned/ignored. Show up with an actual 13th-level character with VoP and Forsaker 10, and let us see how you beat that kobold (or whatever else), or it doesn't prove anything. I believe you still have a riverine sphere to get through--and no, you can't just "pick it up", because obviously it's animated, invisible, flying, and I've just summoned 1d4+1 Huge elementals who are dying to sample your liver.

[heavyfuel]

All you've done is complain that whatever solution is proposed 'doesn't prove anything' or is 'shenanigans' that would get banned/ignored.

I've done nothing of the sort. It's not "whatever solution", just the ones that revolve around single use items of high level spells.

Anyone can pick a Candle of Invocation and RAW their way into infinite wishes. That doesn't mean that any character with 9000gp of wealth is, therefore, as powerful as a 17th level Wizard.

As for picking up your sphere, I'm pretty sure I can do that. Characters can grapple animated objects. As for the elementals, I'm assuming they'll only be around for a few rounds. Nothing that can't be avoided.

[Mechalich]

Okay, a Ring of Invisibility and Boots, Winged, gets you 15 minutes - 150 rounds, should be more than enough for any encounter - worth of invisible flight for a modest 36,000 gp together. That's far from the most economical way to approach the concept, but those are both permanent core items whose use should be unquestionable - and would be useful to pretty much any low-level character who had giant piles of gold. Most versions of a Forsaker are going to have a lot of difficulty putting down a flying, invisible character who does nothing but buzz around and unleash minions.

So, that leaves 74,000 gp worth of minion-generating items with which to kill the Forsaker. A few scrolls of Elemental Swarm or Summon Monster IX end things real quick. However, since scrolls are single-use items (though quite cheap, 74,000 gp would buy you 19, more than enough to rocket up quite a few levels), perhaps other options should be investigated.

A Wand of Summon Monster IV won't win the fight, but it offers a copious supply of cannon fodder to restrain the movement of the Forsaker and occupy their attacks, and hey, maybe you get lucky and get a poison hit through. Staff of Swarming Insects is a possibility, since depending on the Forsaker build in question Swarms might be quite difficult to deal with, though it would be a very slow whittling down indeed. Another idea would be dropping 42,000 gp for an Idol of the Dragon, Green, not all that powerful on its own, but continual breath weapon strafing amounts to something. A Rod of the Python (13,000 gp) gets you a Giant Constrictor Snake. None of these are really that good though. Just buying constructs straight up is probably better.

[CMagnum]

Wowee, thanks for all the suggestions everybody! I didn't expect this to be so popular.

Heavyfuel, thanks for the ideas and mentality of using things one would really use in a game instead of just one use magic items; I see where you are coming from. Even if some of the comments are a little demeaning (yes, I am nowhere near as versed in the game as many people on these boards are) I appreciate the input nonetheless. We are going to have a few attempts at this battle so no one can say "if I won initiative" or anything like that. I have a few builds (more like item selections) I had already come up with which I will use first, then get into some of you guys shenanigans if I somehow fail.

I'll let you guys know how it pans out, might not get to do this until Monday the 19th.

[awa]

Okay, a Ring of Invisibility and Boots, Winged, gets you 15 minutes - 150 rounds, should be more than enough for any encounter - worth of invisible flight for a modest 36,000 gp together. That's far from the most economical way to approach the concept, but those are both permanent core items whose use should be unquestionable - and would be useful to pretty much any low-level character who had giant piles of gold. Most versions of a Forsaker are going to have a lot of difficulty putting down a flying, invisible character who does nothing but buzz around and unleash minions.

So, that leaves 74,000 gp worth of minion-generating items with which to kill the Forsaker. A few scrolls of Elemental Swarm or Summon Monster IX end things real quick. However, since scrolls are single-use items (though quite cheap, 74,000 gp would buy you 19, more than enough to rocket up quite a few levels), perhaps other options should be investigated.

A Wand of Summon Monster IV won't win the fight, but it offers a copious supply of cannon fodder to restrain the movement of the Forsaker and occupy their attacks, and hey, maybe you get lucky and get a poison hit through. Staff of Swarming Insects is a possibility, since depending on the Forsaker build in question Swarms might be quite difficult to deal with, though it would be a very slow whittling down indeed. Another idea would be dropping 42,000 gp for an Idol of the Dragon, Green, not all that powerful on its own, but continual breath weapon strafing amounts to something. A Rod of the Python (13,000 gp) gets you a Giant Constrictor Snake. None of these are really that good though. Just buying constructs straight up is probably better.

This may be far less powerful than abusing high level spells through scrolls but it will also be far more compelling in convincing him that vow of poverty is weak rather than that a few broken spells exists

[Batcathat]

I'll let you guys know how it pans out, might not get to do this until Monday the 19th.

Sounds good. I'll be genuinely surprised if your friend just goes "Yeah, you were right" after you presumably win but I suppose people who change their opinions based on evidence actually exists.

[newguydude1]

This may be far less powerful than abusing high level spells through scrolls but it will also be far more compelling in convincing him that vow of poverty is weak rather than that a few broken spells exists

if you want to convince him of that you just do vop monk vs wealth monk against a balor. one just dies the other has a magic item to counteract every single thing the balor can do.

this game isnt pvp so this is what the op should've been doing to prove his point. vop forsaker aint gonna do jack **** against the higher end monsters because vop doesnt do jack **** for anyone.

[Quertus]

Honestly, a 1 v 1 fight between a vow of poverty character and a level 1 character isn't even a good way, let alone the best way, to showcase the superiority of wealth in the game.

The most appropriate way is to take one character at level 1, and the other at whatever arbitrary level, and give the level 1 character the appropriate wealth, while giving the other character the vows and stuff. Make sure everything is actually written down. I would say to strike your point home harder, spend less than your wealth and just donate all the rest of the money to a library for the blind.

Next, have a third person run you through challenges from various different modules. You don't get any prep time, it's all just between you, the challenge, and what's on your paper. Don't bother putting all of the challenges together in some coherent format, just make them a gauntlet. Have some combat encounters, some non-combat, some traps, some environmental, etc. Take things from published modules and just have this third person pick them.

That should give you a good platform to showcase the versatility, power, and capabilities that items bring to the table, compared to someone who is literally prevented from using them. This is the better, and in my opinion best, metric to measure this sort of competition by, especially since it's not pitting players against each other in a combative way. it's a challenge gauntlet, which pits them against each other in a competitive way.

Strongly agree that this will give the most accurate results.

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)

I am curious how Swordsage 3 deals with this.

We are going to have a few attempts at this battle so no one can say "if I won initiative" or anything like that. I have a few builds (more like item selections) I had already come up with which I will use first, then get into some of you guys shenanigans if I somehow fail.

Is "Improved Initiative Nerveskitter Sorcerer with Eager Warning weapon, for +16 to initiative (before Dex)" among them, to remove this "if I had won initiative" argument?

[awa]

if you want to convince him of that you just do vop monk vs wealth monk against a balor. one just dies the other has a magic item to counteract every single thing the balor can do.

this game isnt pvp so this is what the op should've been doing to prove his point.

Also a good argument, the closer the comparison the more compelling it would be. The battle is killing a level 13 vop character the war is convincing him that vop is the problem.

Alternatively creating a character that very closely mimics what the vop character can do too show that you can simply buy all the relevant bonuses.

[SirNibbles]

Strongly agree that this will give the most accurate results.



I am curious how Swordsage 3 deals with this.



Is "Improved Initiative Nerveskitter Sorcerer with Eager Warning weapon, for +16 to initiative (before Dex)" among them, to remove this "if I had won initiative" argument?

Agreed that running a module is better than a 1v1.

__

Swordsage 3/Anything else 10 gets you 8th level Swordsage initiator level, i.e. up to 4th level Maneuvers. I guess the 2nd level maneuver, Hatchling's Flame (30 foot cone for 2d6 fire) could pose a threat if aimed in the right direction.

[Quertus]

Swordsage 3/Anything else 10 gets you 8th level Swordsage initiator level, i.e. up to 4th level Maneuvers. I guess the 2nd level maneuver, Hatchling's Flame (30 foot cone for 2d6 fire) could pose a threat if aimed in the right direction.

Oh. They could use feats to gain access to the higher level maneuvers. OK, that is a problem to consider.

The 30' cone of flame makes the sneak attack build really sad, particularly when coupled with held actions.

Not sure whether maneuvers make them more suitable for adventuring than the WBL character or not. Thoughts?

[GrayDeath]

that is the reason wealth beats levels. high level spell shenanigans butcher everything. wealth gives access to high level spell shenanigans.

its the main reason artificer is tier 0, higher than wizard. not because he makes vorpal weapons cheaper, but because he gets 9th level spells at level 7 with wealth.

Nope.

Artificer is only "Tier 1 and above" if:
All players/The DM go for RAW over everything
The World does not need to make sense in any way whatsoever
He has near unlimited Time
and his player TRULY knows his stuff.

otherwise, Artificer is somewhere between very low Tier 1 and high Tier 3, depending on restrictions, setting, and RAW/RAI rdebates.

if you want to convince him of that you just do vop monk vs wealth monk against a balor. one just dies the other has a magic item to counteract every single thing the balor can do.

this game isnt pvp so this is what the op should've been doing to prove his point. vop forsaker aint gonna do jack **** against the higher end monsters because vop doesnt do jack **** for anyone.

This however is a very good argument.

Duels are always very much suffering from the "Aha, you failed to prepare for X, which I have here, I win!" effect.

Instead let both of them run vs say 2 CR 5, 2 CR 9 and 2 CR 13 Encounters (one each Monster, one "NPC Humans", and then see who does better.
Cause otherwsie, all you are proofing is that your wealth can beat that specific character under the specific circumstances your Duel takes place under, and in no way "true" superiority.


Aside from the fact that the premise is a shaky one to begin with.

[Shirow]

This thread has been incredibly interesting and informative as a thought experiment. Can't wait to hear what the resolution will be.

Whether the VoP character is a Swordsage, monk or a Wizard; whether they do CR encounters, modules or PvP; whether the table allows "shenanigans" or "cheese"; there's still the matter of the individual skill level of the two players and their luck with their rolls during this contest. They would have to control for that by maybe going at this more than a few times, and perhaps even have other people of a similar skill level (with no access to this forum? idk) play the characters. Seems like an awful lot of work for bragging rights.

OP's friend probably has some sort of emotional investment on the VoP. I sort of get that, too bad it is probably gonna lose. The money is good argument seems pretty bulletproof at this point. At least from a purely game mechanics perspective. (If I was their DM and that's the character the player wants to play, I'd do as the ToED says and reward the teammates for helping this person out, since the game is supposed to be cooperative, it seems like fun, and they're the ones supposed to be running the cool story. )

[newguydude1]

Nope.

nope.

Artificer is only "Tier 1 and above" if:
All players/The DM go for RAW over everything

you sound like using prestige class spell lists is the same as drown healing.

The World does not need to make sense in any way whatsoever

artificer making prestige class spell scrolls makes the world not make any sense whatsoever?

He has near unlimited Time

scrolls dont take that long to make

and his player TRULY knows his stuff.

this is the one valid thing you said in the list.

otherwise, Artificer is somewhere between very low Tier 1 and high Tier 3, depending on restrictions, setting, and RAW/RAI rdebates.

i remember the day i was convinced wealth beats levels. its when i read a thread on this forum about using wish to create mithral golems. it costs 5,000xp to make mithral golem. so wish + double creation xp = 15,000xp. so a 7th level artificer can bank his xp and not level up to 8, and use the 15,000xp (2 levels worth) to create a scroll of wish in 3? 4 days? and create a mithral golem.

then i saw unlimited runecrafter (runesmith?) rune of some spell that makes retrievers for hours or 10min/level, and a rune of elemental monolith. also made by wish. wish is used to cheat a prc class feature, not the cost.

the artificer isnt cheating xp cost in any way. hes paying the xp cost in full no discount and its still op as hell.

turning xp into wealth beats turning xp into levels. therefore wealth > levels.

[Quertus]

Net effect of this thread: Guy who wants to take VoP convinces the GM to buff VoP.

Which... isn't a terrible thing.

... say, for all the things that the Playground has attempted to create "fixed" versions of, has it ever fixed VoP? If not, should we make a thread for that?

[SirNibbles]

Net effect of this thread: Guy who wants to take VoP convinces the GM to buff VoP.

Which... isn't a terrible thing.

... say, for all the things that the Playground has attempted to create "fixed" versions of, has it ever fixed VoP? If not, should we make a thread for that?

Does it need fixing? Is VoP intended to allow someone with no wealth to be as powerful as someone with appropriate WBL or is it simply intended to allow you to add character flavor without suffering as horribly as you would without it?

[vasilidor]

my first thought was a way to be ethereal and have a wand of enervate.

[Crake]

so a 7th level artificer can bank his xp and not level up to 8, and use the 15,000xp (2 levels worth) to create a scroll of wish in 3? 4 days?

How exactly does a 7th level artificer meet the requirements to craft a scroll of wish though?

[Quertus]

Does it need fixing? Is VoP intended to allow someone with no wealth to be as powerful as someone with appropriate WBL or is it simply intended to allow you to add character flavor without suffering as horribly as you would without it?

OK, "True Namer" needs fixing, because it's just dysfunctional. That aside, most usage of the word "Fixing" in regard to 3e content around here means "rebalancing"; those words seem fairly synonymous in Playgrounder jargon. So, yes, I mean rebalancing (in the "all options are equal end goal" way).

Does the game need to have every option perfectly balanced? Of course not. We could all just play LA +8 Vampire Monks in parties with Tainted Sorerer Beholder Mages and call it a day. Or we could balance to the table, and use TO shenanigans to make the Vampire Monk balanced with the Low-Op VoP Tainted Beholder Mage (Wis 3 would be a fun anti-optimization there).

[ExLibrisMortis]

How exactly does a 7th level artificer meet the requirements to craft a scroll of wish though?

Wish nabbed from a Divine Crusader with the Envy domain, minimum CL 9, available to artificers at CL 7.

[Shirow]

Does it need fixing? Is VoP intended to allow someone with no wealth to be as powerful as someone with appropriate WBL or is it simply intended to allow you to add character flavor without suffering as horribly as you would without it?

Indeed. I can't imagine someone soloing with this class, effectively. (But maybe that's just me?) In a party though, depending on how well it the VoP character can fulfill its role without pissing everyone else off, it might be OK as is. A party that gets +20%~+25% treasure sounds like a happy party to me. Even if they have to spend some time buffing or looking out for their friend's druid/paladin-like pesky restrictions.

[newguydude1]

Indeed. I can't imagine someone soloing with this class, effectively. (But maybe that's just me?) In a party though, depending on how well it the VoP character can fulfill its role without pissing everyone else off, it might be OK as is. A party that gets +20%~+25% treasure sounds like a happy party to me. Even if they have to spend some time buffing or looking out for their friend's druid/paladin-like pesky restrictions.

id grab vow of poverty in a heartbeat it if didnt have the exalted good roleplay.

one thing vow of poverty does better than wealth is +8 to casting ability stat. go something that doesnt need anything like dweomerkeeper and you got a character that is stronger than fully equipped to the teeth wizards in some areas.

but no. exalted good will result in your death. because when a dragon is eating children at a child hospital he just busted down, you have to run in and try to save the children instead of hightailing it out of there. cause thats what an exalted good character would do. and since i would never do that with my character i cant grab vop.

[Quertus]

Indeed. I can't imagine someone soloing with this class, effectively. (But maybe that's just me?) In a party though, depending on how well it the VoP character can fulfill its role without pissing everyone else off, it might be OK as is. A party that gets +20%~+25% treasure sounds like a happy party to me. Even if they have to spend some time buffing or looking out for their friend's druid/paladin-like pesky restrictions.

It doesn't though. You still take your share of the treasure, you just give it away to homeless orphans and stuff. So it is in no way a party buff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't though. You still take your share of the treasure, you just give it away to homeless orphans and stuff. So it is in no way a party buff.

Weeeeell... If the party is considered a charity, given they take down evil and help those in need, you CAN donate your share to the cause...

It's one of the few bits of RAW that actually helps the party, rather than screwing them and yourself.