A Weird Variant Way Of Leveling

[Lysander]

First off let me say that I don't think this is a good idea. This is just a thought experiment.

What if when your character multiclassed, you didn't take the 1st level in that new class but instead took your old character level +1 level in that new class, only gaining the abilities granted with that level.

For example, you have a fighter 5 who multiclasses to sorceror. They gain 1 level 2 spellslot and 3 level 3 spellslots, because that's what you earn with Sorceror level 6. But they wouldn't have any lower level spell slots, nor the summon familiar feat, because those are granted at lower levels. As for known spells, they'd know one level 3 spell and they could swap one of their two nothings in level two for a spell, giving them a total of just two spells known.

Or you could have a sor/fighter who takes a level of fighter only when gaining even character levels so he always gets a feat. Meanwhile they'd get fewer sorceror spells than normal, because they'd only gain the increase in spells granted by the levels they take. For example, a person who had only taken sorceror at levels 1, 3, and 5 would just have 4 1st level spells per day, forever, because they would miss out on the 1st level spells gained at sorc level 2 and 4.

In some cases it would be weaker than normal multiclassing. For example, someone who takes rogue at level 5 would just gain a 1d6 sneak attack and nothing else because that increase is all that's gained with that level. In other cases, a person could play as a fighter until level 17 and then just take wizard until 20 to get 4 level 9 spells and 2 level 8 spells, which is pretty damn sweet.

[woodenbandman]

you shifted the balance the exact opposite direction it needed to shift.

[Woodsman]

That is just so...

God, I can't even describe it.

[Myou]

It would be a catastrophic mess.

[Mr. Mud]

This would work very well...

... in a different system.

[bosssmiley]

Interesting, in that your last-acquired class abilities are always level appropriate, but probably open to massive exploitation potential.

I will note that this mod still doesn't fix the problem of most non-caster classes being worthless (as in unable to pull their weight in mechanical terms) above level 10-ish. So anticipate a spate of unvarying [non-caster class] #low /[caster class] #high builds in the offing. Front-loaded full-BAB classes for low level survivability and class feature cherry-picking, then universal caster fap across the board as quadratic wizard power kicks in.

Sure, the suggestion plays well with the "above 10th level all D&D is magic" meme; but there has to be a more elegant way of doing it than formalising the idea that the best way to be a high-level fighter/monk/paladin is to PrC out to batman wizard or codzilla.

You might want to cross-post this at a dedicated Char Op forum like The Gaming Den or Brilliant Gameologists. Throw it to the wolf pack and let them destruct test the idea to see exactly why and where it fails.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The Gamer Den? What optimization goes on there? All I remember is a lot of arguing...

[Mr. Mud]

The Gamer Den? What optimization goes on there? All I remember is a lot of arguing...

Seconded.

GitP serves as a better, more friendly environment for this to me torn apart in... at least, you might actually get clear results. IMO.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

First off let me say that I don't think this is a good idea. This is just a thought experiment.

What if when your character multiclassed, you didn't take the 1st level in that new class but instead took your old character level +1 level in that new class, only gaining the abilities granted with that level.

For example, you have a fighter 5 who multiclasses to sorceror. They gain 1 level 2 spellslot and 3 level 3 spellslots, because that's what you earn with Sorceror level 6. But they wouldn't have any lower level spell slots, nor the summon familiar feat, because those are granted at lower levels. As for known spells, they'd know one level 3 spell and they could swap one of their two nothings in level two for a spell, giving them a total of just two spells known.

Or you could have a sor/fighter who takes a level of fighter only when gaining even character levels so he always gets a feat. Meanwhile they'd get fewer sorceror spells than normal, because they'd only gain the increase in spells granted by the levels they take. For example, a person who had only taken sorceror at levels 1, 3, and 5 would just have 4 1st level spells per day, forever, because they would miss out on the 1st level spells gained at sorc level 2 and 4.

In some cases it would be weaker than normal multiclassing. For example, someone who takes rogue at level 5 would just gain a 1d6 sneak attack and nothing else because that increase is all that's gained with that level. In other cases, a person could play as a fighter until level 17 and then just take wizard until 20 to get 4 level 9 spells and 2 level 8 spells, which is pretty damn sweet.

"Are you serious? I studied for a century before I even mastered my first level 1 spell."

"Well gee, you should have taken your first level in something easier, like bard or rogue."

Seconded.

GitP serves as a better, more friendly environment for this to me torn apart in... at least, you might actually get clear results. IMO.

Eh.... only a few people here have a clear grasp of the rules, and one of them was just banned, so...

[Optimystik]

"Are you serious? I studied for a century before I even mastered my first level 1 spell."

"Well gee, you should have taken your first level in something easier, like bard or rogue."

That was the first thing I thought of too!

[Mr. Mud]

Eh.... only a few people here have a clear grasp of the rules, and one of them was just banned, so...

Eh, but a few people with brains is better than a lot that will just ridicule oneself... I guess I just didn't have a good run with Gamer's Den... Anyway, who was banned?!

[FMArthur]

Factotum dip at 19th level is looking pretty good for every character.

[Lysander]

Hey, I admit it's an awful idea. But you have to admit, the idea of someone being able to cast 8th level spells but dying because they can't cast Feather Fall is pretty funny.

[Dogmantra]

Factotum dip at 19th level is looking pretty good for every character.

I'm also liking 5th level druid dip for meatshields...

[Mr. Mud]

Hey, I admit it's an awful idea. But you have to admit, the idea of someone being able to cast 8th level spells but dying because they can't cast Feather Fall is pretty funny.

Heh yeah... but it's not really a bad idea, as much as it just won't work in any system similar to D&D... In a different system, given some rules were made around the leveling, it could be pretty cool.

[Lysander]

I could see a faint use for it in a campaign that wants any high level person to be capable of supreme magic feats. It'd need a very specific kind of world though. "He's a powerful fighter! Of course he can shapechange! What, do your champion fighters not shapechange?"

[Optimystik]

Hey, I admit it's an awful idea. But you have to admit, the idea of someone being able to cast 8th level spells but dying because they can't cast Feather Fall is pretty funny.

What's even funnier is that they could have grabbed Limited Wish to do that instead.

[Totally Guy]

Ah... so that's not how it works...

My Monk/Sorcerer gish plan is suddenly not looking so good. Granted I'm only a level 2 Monk right now I won't be able to qualify for Ascetic Mage at level 6... which was my plan.

No one in my group has ever multiclasssed... Except me one time when my Bard took a fighter level for the Improved Tripping feat path.

[Draz74]

How do PrCs fit into this?

Factotum dip at 19th level is looking pretty good for every character.

Zero Inspiration Points. Using Cunning Brilliance requires 4. Unless you can spare 3 feats for Font of Inspiration ... not happening.

Some levels are pretty tempting though. Duskblade who takes Swashbuckler 3? Cleric who takes Duskblade 13? Yum.

[Optimystik]

I'd grab Malconvoker 5 to double all my evil summons >.>

[Zincorium]

Er, to everybody who is all 'sky is falling!!', it's really not that bad as long as it's applied equally to all characters.

What it ends up in, in that case, is you have a significant jump in PC power level, much like a gestalt game, and the DM ups the challenges to compensate for the fact that everybody has the most awesome abilities evar.

There's still room for various roles and such, and as long as you ensure that all PrC prerequisites are followed, and/or disallow them, it could work.

[Kylarra]

How do PrCs fit into this?

They no longer exist, unless you have RHD!

[Set]

The offset spell acquisition of Sorcerers and Wizards might play funny games with this system.

Take 3rd level in Wizard (gain 2nd level Wiz spells), 4th level in Sorcerer (gain 2nd level Sor spell), 5th level in Wizard (3rd Wiz spells), 6th in Sorcerer (3rd Sor spells), etc all the way up to 17 Wizard (9th Wiz spells) and 18 Sorcerer (9th Sor spells).

[Starbuck_II]

So, what happens if you take a class like Barbarian that has 2/day Rage at a level: did you just gain 2?

That seems unfair for the Barb.

It has interesting cognotations.

[lsfreak]

So, what happens if you take a class like Barbarian that has 2/day Rage at a level: did you just gain 2?

That seems unfair for the Barb.

It has interesting cognotations.

Pretty sure he's not counting it as "Rage 2/day" but rather "Rage 1/day more than you already had."

[Lysander]

Pretty sure he's not counting it as "Rage 2/day" but rather "Rage 1/day more than you already had."

That's right, you only gain the increase.

[valadil]

I could almost see it working if it didn't include spellcasting. Other class features seem pretty reasonable. Although the fighter/rogue who alternates levels to get full feats and sneak attack would be pretty angry.

What I like about this is it would eliminate 2 level dips in classes. You could have pally 2 give you charisma to stats or rogue 2 give you evasion, but never both.

[Sliver]

What I like about this is it would eliminate 2 level dips in classes. You could have pally 2 give you charisma to stats or rogue 2 give you evasion, but never both.

Huh.. Sounds kinda wierd to me.. I think you should be able to pick the level of the class you take, equal or less to your new character level..
I donno, it just sounds wierd to me that the mighty fighter that takes a level in wizard can't some specific lower level spell if he wants to, while a rogue that takes a dip in warlock will have.. what..? a weak blast and a dark invocation? what if he wanted to see the unseen?!

[Kylarra]

Huh.. Sounds kinda wierd to me.. I think you should be able to pick the level of the class you take, equal or less to your new character level..
I donno, it just sounds wierd to me that the mighty fighter that takes a level in wizard can't some specific lower level spell if he wants to, while a rogue that takes a dip in warlock will have.. what..? a weak blast and a dark invocation? what if he wanted to see the unseen?!

Strictly speaking your (fighter)wizard could have that lower slot as lower level spells can be prepared in higher level slots. :p

[Sliver]

Strictly speaking your (fighter)wizard could have that lower slot as lower level spells can be prepared in higher level slots. :p

In that specific case, yes, I am aware.. But the player might want a lower level ability, and I think he should be able to do that.. If someone went paladin 9 and wants a rogue level, if he wants trapfinding I think he should be able to take rogue 1 instead of rogue 10..