Judge my house rule

[SethFahad]

As a DM, I have the following house rule:
1 (extra) feat at 1st level
Four +1 bonuses to apply to any craft, knowledge or profession skill (count as bonus, not as ranks)
1 (extra) language depending on ethnicity or region. (actually it's more like a dialect. Doesn't count as a language for feat or PrC requirements.) f.e. Alzhedo, Illuskan etc.

All of the above are optional, a player can decline any or all of them.

Is it too much? Any suggestions/changes?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

If everyone in the game is getting the option of these, then it's fine.

You might want to re-word the skill points / bonus to make it absolutely clear it's only a bonus.

[Simba]

I usually give my players some points for "profession and/or knowledge and/or craft skills" at first level as most of them have some kind of job they once did before becoming an adventurer. And I have raised the number of skill points some classes (Fighter, Sorceror, Paladin) get so they can at least learn what they should know.

[Eldariel]

As a DM, I have the following house rule:
1 (extra) feat at 1st level
4 (extra) bonus skill points (count as bonus, not ranks) distributable for profession and/or knowledge and/or craft skills.
1 (extra) language depending on ethnicity or region. (actually it's more like a dialect. Doesn't count as a language for feat or PrC requirements.) f.e. Alzhedo, Illuskan etc.

All of the above are optional, a player can decline any or all of them.

Is it too much? Any suggestions/changes?

I personally give feats every two levels and extra skills on each level, because I find by default you just have too few to pick anything interesting-but-not-effective if you want to enter a PrC or finish feat chains or such. Human feat's incredible value is a symptom of this; feats simply are too sparse by default.

So...yeah, one feat every 2 levels alleviates that, and I rather have my heroes able to actually perform some skills. Very rarely do I see standard characters with ranks in Swim, an ability just about every hero should have. Things like Climb, Jump, etc. get neglected out of necessity and so on. Cross-class skills ensure skill monkeys lose little with this, but having few extra skill points to actually put CC ranks into Spot as a Fighter without 18 Int is pretty nice.


So yeah, I like what you're doing there, but I'd personally go an extra mile and add extras all across the progression.

[SethFahad]

So yeah, I like what you're doing there, but I'd personally go an extra mile and add extras all across the progression.

Well, as an extra, I let my players, each time they level-up, to re-train feats and skills. In some extreme occasions I've even allowed class changes.

[arguskos]

So yeah, I like what you're doing there, but I'd personally go an extra mile and add extras all across the progression.

Amazingly, I actually give MORE feats than even you do! I give a feat at 1st, 2nd, and every other level thereafter. This makes two levels of Fighter at the start of martial builds look even more feat-a-riffic. On skill points, I freely offer free skill points if a player says "hey, I want to take useless skill X because it fits my background, that alright?" I'll respond with (assuming it's a Craft or Profession skill), "Sure, here, have some free skill points". Typically, I give enough to get one Craft/Profession up to max ranks for that level. After start of play though, they're on their own to boost it, representing that their character hasn't been neglecting it.

Also, Seth, I clearly approve of the direction, but also tend to go the extra distance and just give folks more of everything.

[Satyr]

I find retraining silly and unlogical ("Yeah, I once know how to track, but I have suddenly forgoten it"), so I would avoid it at all costs.

1 (extra) feat at 1st level

Okay, if everybody gets one, I guess.

4 (extra) bonus skill points (count as bonus, not ranks) distributable for profession and/or knowledge and/or craft skills.

Nice idea. But I would make it a regular appearance, not only on first level to encourage the players to make more fluffy and well-rounded characters.
What I have thought about as a sensible measure where additional skill points which are distributed by the GM and reflect what the character have learned on each level. It would also create a system of benefits which can give good players a little bonus beyond "you level a bit faster". Usually, you cannot chose what you learn from your experiences, and if the GM isn't unfair, it would be a neat system ("You have spend a lot of time in that cave complex. Everybody gets a level of Knowledge (Dungeoneering)").

1 (extra) language depending on ethnicity or region. (actually it's more like a dialect. Doesn't count as a language for feat or PrC requirements.) f.e. Alzhedo, Illuskan etc.

Nice, especially in campaigns without the intercultural lingua fanca nonsense.

[Eldariel]

Well, as an extra, I let my players, each time they level-up, to re-train feats and skills. In some extreme occasions I've even allowed class changes.

What follows is all IMHO; feel free to disagree, this is based purely on my experience, and comes with a healthy side dish of rant:

Spoiler

Show

That doesn't help with the fundamental lack of both, though. I mean, I've found a Rogue with 14+Int skills still needs 18 Int to max out what you'd consider basic skills on the streets: Jump, Climb, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Knowledge: Local, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Balance, Appraise...and that leaves out such essentials as Tumble, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Disguise and Use Magic Device.

That's just the bunch of skills you'd assume a streetsmart Rogue to accumulate; climb and jump are obvious and deeply entwined with the archetype of any sort of thief (not to mention, quite necessary for getting anywhere you aren't supposed to), all the manipulation-skills are par-de-course in the underworld, observation and hiding are both necessary to stay alive as is picking locks & devices, small manual dexterity and being able to assess your booty. Then go to 8+Int and see how much you get. And that's with the class with the largest amount of skills/level in the game, with maxed Int (which is rarely possible).

This lead me to believe you can easily add +6-8 skillpoints per level to each class without harming the game in any way, but possibly sparing some skill points for interesting skills for your characters without having to optimize them and cull "unnecessaries" like physicals that get covered with magic anyways.


And feats...I once wanted to pick Master of Poisons for my Ranger. I never got around it as I was busy picking the various archery feats the class doesn't grant (PBS, Precise, Imp. Rapid, etc.) along with some background stuff.

The long feat chains with tons of low-impact feats early on combined with many archetypes wanting multiple different chains just means you have way too few feats overall. Like, is it really hard to imagine a warrior skilled in both archery and two-weapon fighting? Hell, both are matters of dexterity; with a modicum of training, you should gain some kind of proficiency in both, right?

And yet, in D&D, you gotta be around level 18 to truly finish both feat chains, let alone if you have some more esoteric skills. Level 6 is supposed to be "what real human could do"; you have three feats by then. Good luck taking Skill Focus: Anything in there if you wanna learn to hit things too. Let alone interesting feats like Education or Diehard.


Bleh, I personally vastly prefer having too many feats to too few; I can use the ones I don't need to customize my characters' skill sets to match my mental image. I also prefer not being shoehorned into single class, or dipping classes just to get my feats (sure, Fighter has enough but what if you're using Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Rogue or Factotum instead?).

This is just emphasized in multiclass characters or characters with multiple focuses; gishes truly hurt for martial or caster feats depending on which they focus, and warriors focusing on multiple combat styles generally need to be level 10+ Fighters...let alone those picking Blind-Fight no matter how sensible. Meh.

Amazingly, I actually give MORE feats than even you do! I give a feat at 1st, 2nd, and every other level thereafter.

This is what I do too, though I probably should've worded it better Though I also offer a free Regional on level 1. I'd also want to offer racial feats quite often, but I don't find D&D containing enough Racials to make that work.

[faceroll]

That doesn't help with the fundamental lack of both, though. I mean, I've found a Rogue with 14+Int skills still needs 18 Int to max out what you'd consider basic skills on the streets: Jump, Climb, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Knowledge: Local, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Balance, Appraise...and that leaves out such essentials as Tumble, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Disguise and Use Magic Device.

Well there's your problem. You just don't get to be super great at everything. Most skills let you fail by 5 to 10, so having +30 to everything isn't necessary. Instead, choose 8 skills to max and 2x int bonus skills to dabble in. With the proper gear, you can be beyond competent for most things. A potion of glibness gets you +30 to bluffing; unless you're lying to 20HD 30 wisdom creatures at level 8, it's pretty overkill. Size bonuses & spell/equipment bonuses to being small scale way, way faster than spot ever will.

[Eldariel]

Well there's your problem. You just don't get to be super great at everything. Most skills let you fail by 5 to 10, so having +30 to everything isn't necessary. Instead, choose 8 skills to max and 2x int bonus skills to dabble in. With the proper gear, you can be beyond competent for most things. A potion of glibness gets you +30 to bluffing; unless you're lying to 20HD 30 wisdom creatures at level 8, it's pretty overkill. Size bonuses & spell/equipment bonuses to being small scale way, way faster than spot ever will.

See, but that doesn't help at all. I know how to use magic to circumvent the need for skills, I even said as much (on fly allowing you to ignore most physicals, for example). Thing is, I like having ranks in skills obsoleted by Magic. It makes sense to me for a Rogue to be good at lying without having to drink a potion of magical tongue-gilder every time, while also having all those other competencies for...y'know, being a Rogue.

That's what Rogues are supposed to be good at. Not only a Rogue, but a heroic Rogue way above average human; you'd expect him to be well-versed in what normal Rogues are competent in. Level 8, he's already a super human; he shouldn't need one ounce of magic for the listed skills. Hell, by virtue of being an above-average Rogue, he should have those skills level 1; it's really hard to make the checks consistently without having full ranks at that point especially since you don't have enough feats to boost them all relevantly.


My issue isn't how to make a character who can perform the various tasks without actually having any above-average skill in them; as you might know I'm a competent optimizer and no stranger to UMD, Wands of Guidance of the Avatar, Potions of Divine Insight, various statistic skill boosters and magic items that alleviate the need for skills altogether (flight, much?). No, that's not the point here; the point is that the image I have of a Rogue is not a guy who carries around a truckload of magic items to see him by whenever he needs to lie, climb, jump, swim or god forbid, gather information. That's all stuff he should be capable of easily without a single spell! Magic enables him to fly, be invisible, that sort of thing. Magic shouldn't be a prerequisite for your basic functioning.

[Gaiyamato]

I like those house rules, make sense to me.
You can never get enough feats onto a character to make cool or interesting builds. In fact even making some sort of rough equivalent to a real life warrior type is impossible because even to do a simple front snap kick requires a feat apparently.

I also like the suggestion by Eldariel there. I played a campaign where we had a feat every second level and found that fighters and monks became very useful once again. Almost kept up with the spellcasters in power at later levels.
:)

[faceroll]

snip

An above average guy lying to an average guy typically succeeds. If you're trying to bluff a demon, either you're really good at it and neglected cross-training your legs for jumping, or need a bit o' magical tongue gilding.

A rogue with 5 ranks in gather information, 5 ranks in knowledge local, 12 charisma, and a masterwork tool (gold coins) gets 20 when he takes ten to gather info. This is right in the middle of the range of the DCs listed in the DMG. If you REALLY need to get super-secret info the DM doesn't want to give you with a DC20 to 25 check, you can easily squeeze out what you need with a little magic and a friend or two. Alternatively, you could invest more ranks so you don't need magic.

I just don't see what the problem is, if you accept that sometimes the hero fails on a skill check as the cost of doing lots of things competently.

With that said, I combine skills like spot & listen and bump everybody except int SAD classes up 2 skills/level.

[Eldariel]

An above average guy lying to an average guy typically succeeds. If you're trying to bluff a demon, either you're really good at it and neglected cross-training your legs for jumping, or need a bit o' magical tongue gilding.

A rogue with 5 ranks in gather information, 5 ranks in knowledge local, 12 charisma, and a masterwork tool (gold coins) gets 20 when he takes ten to gather info. This is right in the middle of the range of the DCs listed in the DMG. If you REALLY need to get super-secret info the DM doesn't want to give you with a DC20 to 25 check, you can easily squeeze out what you need with a little magic and a friend or two. Alternatively, you could invest more ranks so you don't need magic.

I just don't see what the problem is, if you accept that sometimes the hero fails on a skill check as the cost of doing lots of things competently.

With that said, I combine skills like spot & listen and bump everybody except int SAD classes up 2 skills/level.

Simply put, the issue is that you can't have those 5 ranks when you should by default (level 2); there are simply too few skill points in each class for how big the skill list is. You're gonna fail checks even with that. I don't see any arguments against this; it's not like extra skill points suddenly make you stop failing skill checks, they simply increase the number of skills you can be competent in.

The level hardcap pretty much single-handedly removes any downside there is to increasing the number of skill points (as long as one doesn't increase them by so much that characters can max all skills or anything; that'd just be silly, but given there are 40+ skills only in core not accounting for Profession/Perform/Craft, that's hardly a real danger unless you actually start adding +30 points per class or so) and it just lets characters not using magic have some fun by participating and actually having the competencies you'd expect a character to have.


Sure, you could consolidate the skill list, but I much prefer the option of specialization in different areas within a "supertype" and thus prefer just having enough skills to reasonably use the skill system as written (although few, like Decipher Script and Use Rope, would probably be best off collapsed into real skills as they're a bit too specialized).

[Kaiyanwang]

If everyone in the game is getting the option of these, then it's fine.

This.

Nothing game-breaking, you just gave a free feat without the flaw conterpart, and few more skills to make the PC more deep.

They are fine HR IMO.

[Gaiyamato]

I like those house rules, make sense to me.
You can never get enough feats onto a character to make cool or interesting builds. In fact even making some sort of rough equivalent to a real life warrior type is impossible because even to do a simple front snap kick requires a feat apparently.

I also like the suggestion by Eldariel there. I played a campaign where we had a feat every second level and found that fighters and monks became very useful once again. Almost kept up with the spellcasters in power at later levels.
:)

[Kaiyanwang]

I find retraining silly and unlogical ("Yeah, I once know how to track, but I have suddenly forgoten it"), so I would avoid it at all costs.

I had the same impression at first, but I allow it in my games if enough time passes.

People can forget, or at least "forget enough" in a way that you are not enough skilled to posses the feat.

[Superglucose]

I had the same impression at first, but I allow it in my games if enough time passes.

I rule that if you die/want to reroll mid-adventure you take an EXP hit, but after every adventure each player can completely rebuild their character if they like.

The idea behind it is, let's say we're playing a campaign that's gone from 1-20. You really wanted to play a spiked-chain fighter in a trip build, but we've just hit say, level 7. Things are starting to fly now which is a problem for you, so it's not getting that interesting. You can either a) take a small exp hit now (usually, if you're between 7th and 8th level, you'll drop to just barely 7th level) and completely rebuild and I'll find some (obviously cheesy and railroaded, but there's not much I can do at that point) excuse to throw you in the plot, or b) play out the rest of this adventure then rebuild.

Let's say you get to level 8 and are 50 exp from level 9 and the adventure just ended and you're like, "Well, Crusader was fun, but I kind of want to play a Bard now." Well then you get to rebuild completely keeping your experience. Your character retires and goes off into the wilderness, and if you can come up with a good reason/story behind his retirement, then your new character gets an XP bonus.

Why? Two fold:

1) No one should ever have to play an archetype they don't want to play. D&D is not balanced, I admit, but it's flexible enough that a party of four wizards can survive without even one tank. Sometimes players get caught in "needing an archetype" so they play whatever, and I hate hate hate it when I have to do that as a player or watch my players do it as a GM. I'd rather run a GMPC healbot than have a player groan and say, "Well I guess it's my turn to be the cleric." (Yes, it's just an example) D&D is a game, and what you wanted to play three months ago may not be what you're playing right now: I like to give you the opportunity to change it.

2) If you do it mid story you may be trying to gain the system by going, "Oh, we need this ability but whoops! Well I'll just rebuild and we'll have it!" Also it's really hard for me as a GM to reason why, in the middle of the dungeon crawl, Fighter McFighter suddenly was replaced by a wizard.

Also you take an exp hit when dying, and your new character is just barely the lowest level in the party (so if everyone but one person is level 8, the other person is level 7, you come in at just barely being level 7). I find that this gives character death a bit more poignancy: you don't want it to happen not just because you grew attached to your character, but it hurts you as a player mechanically. Sometimes it's not your fault, true, but risk/reward makes winning so much sweeter.

Finally, there are special rules when the whole party just got their new level a short time ago. Let's say everyone is somewhere between level 7 + 50 xp and level 7 + 500 xp, and you die. You don't get to be level 7, you're something like level 7 - 500 xp. If you die because you did something really stupid and annoying, then you're likely to be punished further (example: you die because you drove the King to order your execution, and the events leading up to it were disruptive to the play experience of the players and/or the character's party goals).

[SethFahad]

Wow... some of you guys are...extremely generous DMs!!!
Ha! And to think I was feeling kind of "guilty" for "bending" the game rules.... well, i suppose my HR are ok then...

Maybe "1 feat every level" is a bit superpower...don't you think?

I find retraining silly and unlogical ("Yeah, I once know how to track, but I have suddenly forgoten it"), so I would avoid it at all costs.

Let me explain:

Occasion 1: The party, passed through a malfunctioning portal (plane of shadow) and as the last character passed, at the same time the portal exploded with raw energy blasting him in a "crispy-crunchy-welldone" heap in a underground wall. (-2 cha {point buy value=4})
The blast was huge. He got saved by luck (he rolled for saves, and ended up in -4 HP) As a side effect, he lost his spellcasting ability (minus 2 levels of sorcerer) but curiously found that he became sneakier than before (plus 2 levels of rogue).
The blast in collision weakened him (-2 str {point buy value=2}) but the headband of intellect he wore, “infused” a permanent effect in his intelligence and made him smarter (+5 int {point buy value=6}).

Occasion 2: A sorc3/warlk4 character died. He came back from the dead with the help of the church. As a side effect along with the level loss, he lost 3 level of sorcerer and switched them into warlock.

In both occasions, both players wanted to change dramatically their characters, but didn’t want to dump them. So a figured a semi-logical excuse for the dramatic change they suffered.

The first story was pre-planed. (he asked for a change). I didn't reveal to him what was going to take place, although a warned him that he may not survive

The second plan, came to the surface after the death of the warlock. When he died he asked for a "minor" change...

[Curmudgeon]

I find retraining silly and unlogical ("Yeah, I once know how to track, but I have suddenly forgoten it"), so I would avoid it at all costs.

It's not exactly sudden. I used to know how to make bread; I did it every week. But I've had a bread machine for 8 years now, and I doubt I could make decent bread by hand without some relearning. These days I spend my time on home improvement instead. That's retraining.

[Kaiyanwang]

Wow... some of you guys are...extremely generous DMs!!!

You only know my good side.

[Tinydwarfman]

It's not exactly sudden. I used to know how to make bread; I did it every week. But I've had a bread machine for 8 years now, and I doubt I could make decent bread by hand without some relearning. These days I spend my time on home improvement instead. That's retraining.

Yes, but over the course of two weeks (levels), the druid learned how to track, and then forgot how and learned how to extend his spells? In this case I like it though, the DM does it through dramatic events instead of one character saying "hmm, I'd really like to know X, but I all the room in my tiny brain is taken up by Y. I know, I'll just forget Y and spontaneously learn X!"

[Roderick_BR]

Well there's your problem. You just don't get to be super great at everything. Most skills let you fail by 5 to 10, so having +30 to everything isn't necessary. Instead, choose 8 skills to max and 2x int bonus skills to dabble in. With the proper gear, you can be beyond competent for most things. A potion of glibness gets you +30 to bluffing; unless you're lying to 20HD 30 wisdom creatures at level 8, it's pretty overkill. Size bonuses & spell/equipment bonuses to being small scale way, way faster than spot ever will.

Unless you're Batman.

This should be posted to Homebrew board </nitpick> But I like. I thought about giving extra feats at 1st level too. Helps to configure your character at 1st level, instead of having to wait till 3rd or 6th level to get what you want. I'm using Pathfinder's rule of 1 feat every 2 levels instead of 3 levels too. I may do the extra bonus for regional feats as well (though I'd have to make the lists in scenarios without ready regional feats).
Hmm... Extra bonus/points just for Profession/Knowledge? That's an interesting idea. I may apply it to my group when we start the new game. Consider it yoinked

[Fitz10019]

Quick question for those DMs who give additional feats...

Do you also give the monsters additional feats on the same schedule, treating HD as class levels?

[Godskook]

I'm new to the DMing gig, but my first group, assuming they survive long enough, will have an extra 10 feats lying around by L20. I'm making them pay xp for them, but as others have mentioned, feats as-is really do seem sparse, unless you're a fighter.

[Tinydwarfman]

Even when you're a fighter, you always need more feats in a trip build.

[Mongoose87]

The skill points issue is why I've taken to using an amalgamation of the SW:SAGA skills rules and the Pathfinder skill list + concentration. I don't like how a charismatic character without diplomacy as a class skill tends to become useless as a party face as he levels.

[Kaiyanwang]

Quick question for those DMs who give additional feats...

Do you also give the monsters additional feats on the same schedule, treating HD as class levels?

I bring bonus feats through flaws, so they are not actually bonus.

And yes, my monsters can have flaws too, and their feats are rebuilt if they does not satisfy me. If my player optimize... (a bit, we don't optimize too much).

Currently, I'm conceding specific bonus feats by quest (see Complete Scoundrel).

And, if you ask me, ideally several feats should be merged (TWF) scaling automatically through levels or conceding automatic synergies (dual strike should be the synergy of Combat Reflexes and TWF, not a feat per se.

[LostOne27]

I typically use the "All right, you've been doing X, so you gain a skill point in skill X" thing...but with feats, too. If a character picks up a dagger and starts using two weapons, he might just get TWF for free. If you find a good reason to bash someone with a shield...repeatedly...you would probably end up with the feat to boost it. It works for all things, and you can give extra feats (1 / level or every other level) and skills (a few per adventure) without seriously impacting the characters, just building on their attributes and what they're already doing. If you never try something new...well...hard to learn that way, so it even seems to make sense to me. Plus casters tend to get less spell-casty feats, but they might pick up some physical feats for free this way.

[SethFahad]

Quick question for those DMs who give additional feats...

Do you also give the monsters additional feats on the same schedule, treating HD as class levels?

No, but as a DM I try to use challenging encounters, so I'm trying to use the correct Encounter Level.

And I use flaws for feats too. 2 flaws at 1st level.