Can you cheat at D&D?

[Flickerdart]

The way to balance spells isn't to introduce a tiny chance that Orcus is summoned instead of the effect taking place. Changing the likelihood of Orcus will not change the ineffectiveness of such a "fix." If you want to balance magic, you do it by fixing the problem spells so that a balanced effect happens every time it's cast, rather than having a chance of one of two unbalanced effects happening.

[Kazudo]

Quick: try to think of something that isn't Orcus!

Bet you can't!

[FidgetySquirrel]

Quick: try to think of something that isn't Orcus!

Bet you can't!

Orcus? Orcus! ORCUS!!! Damn it, Kazudo! It's not working!

[Nilehus]

A spell fizzling, I'm okay with. A spell being turned against the own party, not so much.

If a Fighter attacks and has a critical failure, he misses. Hard. If a Wizard attacks and has a critical failure, he could easily wipe the party. Coming up with a rate at which a spell just fails would probably be more playable. Off the top of my head, spell level x 2 - INT modifier = % chance of failure. That way, low-level spells would be safe, but more complex spells would be more difficult for the wizard to concentrate on. I'm sure there's a lot wrong with it, but it's the first thing that came to mind.

I do like the idea of having a certain branch of magic be safe, though. Wouldn't knock the Healer down into tier 7, and it'd be a nice little perk for specialist wizards.

[torrasque666]

Admittedly, for lower tier classes, this will be a pain. the

But I like the idea for wizards/sorcs. More Power=More Risk. After all, you can cast using a lower CL if you desire, and that would help prevent the primary caster from nuking themselves. Hey, what would happen if they got a Dominate turned against them? Would they just sit there drooling for the duration since there is no-one in control of their mind?

[Kazudo]

you can cast using a lower CL if you desire

Not to question you, but I'd like to see a citation on this so that I know where this ruling is.

[jedipotter]

A spell fizzling, I'm okay with. A spell being turned against the own party, not so much.

You'd love my Spell Resistance house rules then. I don't go for the boring ''your spell fades away''. I got a list of random things.....and #3 is Spell Reflection: the spell bounces off the target at a random angle and effects everything that is a legitimate target. So cast a lightning bolt at the demon, fail your SR check, and one of a dozen options is that you might hit a member of your group with your own spell! More random fun!

[torrasque666]

Not to question you, but I'd like to see a citation on this so that I know where this ruling is.

Its right here.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

[Divide by Zero]

You'd love my Spell Resistance house rules then. I don't go for the boring ''your spell fades away''. I got a list of random things.....and #3 is Spell Reflection: the spell bounces off the target at a random angle and effects everything that is a legitimate target. So cast a lightning bolt at the demon, fail your SR check, and one of a dozen options is that you might hit a member of your group with your own spell! More random fun!

What I'm reading here is "Don't play a caster in jedipotter's games."

[Dr.Gara]

You'd love my Spell Resistance house rules then. I don't go for the boring ''your spell fades away''. I got a list of random things.....and #3 is Spell Reflection: the spell bounces off the target at a random angle and effects everything that is a legitimate target. So cast a lightning bolt at the demon, fail your SR check, and one of a dozen options is that you might hit a member of your group with your own spell! More random fun!

Can we see the rest of the houserules along with that? Because that seems another, "How dare you use the only ability you have! Suffer!"

Is one of the options that the spell bounces off and turns into Orcus? What about any spells cast by Orcus, do they have a chance of bouncing off and turning into Orcus?

[jedipotter]

What I'm reading here is "Don't play a caster in jedipotter's games."

Well, maybe more like: Don't expect to be a ''Teir 1'' type caster in my game. My rules make everyone much more level and balanced. No spellcaster dominates my game, without a LOT of work.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Can we see the rest of the houserules along with that? Because that seems another, "How dare you use the only ability you have! Suffer!"

Is one of the options that the spell bounces off and turns into Orcus? What about any spells cast by Orcus, do they have a chance of bouncing off and turning into Orcus?

Hence the Orcus nesting doll.

[Kazudo]

Its right here. -snip-

Thanks. Needed to know where that was for future reasons.

[Nilehus]

Is one of the options that the spell bounces off and turns into Orcus? What about any spells cast by Orcus, do they have a chance of bouncing off and turning into Orcus?

Obviously. Haven't you been paying attention?

God help you if you cast Magic Missile. Every single one can become Orcus.

Edit: There's a saying about how to make everyone equal, you shouldn't drag others down, you should lift others up. Just sayin'. ****ing all over the Wizard/Cleric just makes the Fighter's job that much harder when they can't get their buffs.

[Dr.Gara]

Well, maybe more like: Don't expect to be a ''Teir 1'' type caster in my game. My rules make everyone much more level and balanced. No spellcaster dominates my game, without a LOT of work.

Again, what you seem to be failing to grasp, any actual "Problem" player wouldn't player wouldn't care about that. They would love that, actually. It's the best for them, it would make even more problem players run to full casters.

[Necroticplague]

The reason you are encountering a lot of hostility is because you keep implying (or at least, wording things in a way that leads people to infer) that people who don't like your rule ideas are bad (or "problem") players per se. A lot of the rule changes (seem to be) chosen simply on the grounds that "people who don't like my rules are problem players, therefore I can eliminate problem players by adding a new rule and excluding anyone who doesn't like it".

Well, calling anyone who attempted to be creative by overcoming an annoying restriction a problem player was actually a later salvo. Probably didn't help that the opening battery was calling anyone who used rules to become more powerful a cheater. Although it is only recently that he implicitly answered what the "too easy" he referred to was (given his talk about 50%-60% failure, it can be presumed that "too much" is something that moves you above this range consistently).

[jedipotter]

Again, what you seem to be failing to grasp, any actual "Problem" player wouldn't player wouldn't care about that. They would love that, actually. It's the best for them, it would make even more problem players run to full casters.

How do you think that? Just using material components alone gets rid of most problem spellcaster players. They take one look at the houserule and say ''lame, I'll be a fighter''. And that is just to start......

[FidgetySquirrel]

So if spells can randomly turn into Orcus now, does that mean that baleful polymorph could turn that annoying druid I'm fighting... into Orcus? What if I baleful polymorph myself into Orcus? And if I pass the lose my mind save? Suddenly Orcus is a PC! I think I just won DnD?

[Nilehus]

So if spells can randomly turn into Orcus now, does that mean that baleful polymorph could turn that annoying druid I'm fighting... into Orcus? What if I baleful polymorph myself into Orcus? And if I pass the lose my mind save? Suddenly Orcus is a PC! I think I just won DnD?

But then you get poofed out of the campaign to get caught in 137ben's perpetually-casting SMI trap. REROLL!

[torrasque666]

How do you think that? Just using material components alone gets rid of most problem spellcaster players. They take one look at the houserule and say ''lame, I'll be a fighter''. And that is just to start......

Nah, they'll just eat up time trying to find their components. Or take Eschew Materials and ignore most of that entirely.

[Flickerdart]

So if spells can randomly turn into Orcus now, does that mean that baleful polymorph could turn that annoying druid I'm fighting... into Orcus? What if I baleful polymorph myself into Orcus? And if I pass the lose my mind save? Suddenly Orcus is a PC! I think I just won DnD?

Given that you still have a 50/50 chance of succeeding on any task, and can only attempt tasks sanctioned by the One True Holy Jedipotter, Long May He Reign, it doesn't matter if you're Orcus or a commoner.

[Divide by Zero]

Well, maybe more like: Don't expect to be a ''Teir 1'' type caster in my game. My rules make everyone much more level and balanced. No spellcaster dominates my game, without a LOT of work.

Do your house rules also make it so low-tier casters get to ignore SR? Because otherwise I'm not sure how this is supposed to work like that.

[FidgetySquirrel]

How do you think that? Just using material components alone gets rid of most problem spellcaster players. They take one look at the houserule and say ''lame, I'll be a fighter''. And that is just to start......

Not true. On page 2 of this thread, you proposed sorcerers having eschew materials... or a sulfur mine. This tells me that eschew materials is legal. Problem players will just take eschew materials, crafting a 49 page backstory justifying it if they have to, and then proceed to be a full caster.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[Nilehus]

Given that you still have a 50/50 chance of succeeding on any task, and can only attempt tasks sanctioned by the One True Holy Jedipotter, Long May He Reign, it doesn't matter if you're Orcus or a commoner.

I'm imagining Orcus trying to do something completely basic, like just sitting down in a chair... And failing utterly miserably.

Orcus doesn't feel like a word anymore...

[FidgetySquirrel]

I'm imagining Orcus trying to do something completely basic, like just sitting down in a chair... And failing utterly miserably.

Orcus doesn't feel like a word anymore...

Orcus isn't a word, Orcus is a way of life! Seriously, if I was a mod, I'd want to be an Orcus in the Playground.

[Dr.Gara]

How do you think that? Just using material components alone gets rid of most problem spellcaster players. They take one look at the houserule and say ''lame, I'll be a fighter''. And that is just to start......

Because problem players would rather break the game. As a spellcaster, you can break the game, even working around your inane and brutal houserules to use your inane and brutal houserules to break the game. You're enabling people who want to break the game.

[Sir Chuckles]

Not true. On page 2 of this thread, you proposed sorcerers having eschew materials... or a sulfur mine. This tells me that eschew materials is legal. Problem players will just take eschew materials, crafting a 49 page backstory justifying it if they have to, and then proceed to be a full caster.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

49 pages? Only a cheating optimizer would try to justify is character choices with backstory, so every page has a 50% chance of involving death by Orcus.

[Svata]

So, did wecome to a consensus on the new thread titile?

[Haluesen]

I think at this point (I mean this particular part of the discussion, not the entire thread), all this really says is that if someone wants to break the game, they will do so. Whether the game is run using crazy houserules or completely vanilla standard 3.5 D&D rules. If a person really wants to try hard enough to break a game, they will do so.

If this is true, as it seems to be, then in the end isn't the answer just to kick out any person who tries to break the game, no out of character talk about it? If people enjoy jedi's rules, then fine. They play that way with him. Though I agree there aren't likely to be many who would. And of course there is standard (or not so standard) rules for those who hate his ways or just hate him in general (or for those who hate Orcus, who nutso people you). But in the end, if someone wants to break the game and laugh evilly and cause trouble for other players, they will find a way. All you can do is kick the a-hole, and hope no one else takes them into their game. That seems to be the line where discussing things out of game and trying to make it right just doesn't work.

Not everyone is a decent human being after all.

[Threadnaught]

Well, maybe more like: Don't expect to be a ''Teir 1'' type caster in my game. My rules make everyone much more level and balanced. No spellcaster dominates my game, without a LOT of work.

What I get from your every post jedipotter (sithvoldemort) is that every single Class becomes Tier 7. A hypothetical Tier more useless than anything in Tier 6, due to lack of Player control.

It's not that you make it hard for Spellcasters to dominate your game, you really haven't. You've made it hard for Players, to play the game.
You're really doing nothing to convince me that you consider your players anything more than your toys. Though at this point, I'm not sure you could.