OOTS #1163 - The Discussion Thread

[Pampukin]

Or, for all we know, "interested only in half-outsiders that speak blue-on-blue".

Grey Wolf

Must be hard to get tinder matchups.

[Ironsmith]

Too many people do not realize that Middle Earth is a Low-Fantasy setting (or at least a low-magic one). At least in the Third Age. Hùrin is about on par with D&D Fighters and Felagund is what D&D Bards want to be when they grow up.

I've noticed that, too, particularly when talking with my friends and family. I take Chronicles of Narnia or Stardust as better examples of a High-Fantasy setting; in both, while fantastic elements are present, it's considerably rarer in LotR, and much more explicit in the latter two: Narnia has fantasy creatures of every stripe, "[X] is under an enchantment" is a frequent plot point, and most characters react to "magic happened" with a shrug (unless they're new around these parts); Stardust has a freaking magic market, implied not to be the only one, witches and wizards are commonplace enough that no fewer than four cross into the main plot, and of course there's the sky pirates who harvest and sell lightning bolts.

Anyway, pointing this out usually leads to a fun little debate across the kitchen table.

[woweedd]

Too many people do not realize that Middle Earth is a Low-Fantasy setting (or at least a low-magic one). At least in the Third Age. Hùrin is about on par with D&D Fighters and Felagund is what D&D Bards want to be when they grow up.

The whole point of Middle-Earth is that it's a high fantasy, views from the perspective of a low fantasy people. Hobbits are about as low-fantasy as it gets, but Elves are quite a bit higher. It's a big fantasy world, viewed mainly from the perspective of the smallest and most seemingly-insignificant creatures in it.

[hroþila]

The whole point of Middle-Earth is that it's a high fantasy, views from the perspective of a low fantasy people. Hobbits are about as low-fantasy as it gets, but Elves are quite a bit higher. It's a big fantasy world, viewed mainly from the perspective of the smallest and most seemingly-insignificant creatures in it.

You mean the whole point of LOTR/Hobbit. It's quite different for Middle-earth as a whole, what with the hobbits being latecomers and barely featuring in the rest of the legendarium.

[Shoelessgdowar]

As Grey_Wolf_c pointed out colored speech balloons usually mean some kind of outsider. Cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiancé (Cbilnf for short) has the same color scheme in his speech balloons as Celia (example) so maybe he's got a connection to the elemental plane of air, or maybe that's the generic color for all good-aligned outsiders. Unlike Celia, Cbilnf gets a different font than everyone else when he speaks. That may be significant, or it may just be that we haven't seen Celia (I think) since the latest art upgrade.

I like that name... until further notice, I think Sir Cbilnf Butnotthad is a perfect fullname for this guy.

[Peelee]

Anyway, pointing this out usually leads to a fun little debate across the kitchen table.

I imagine the debate is between people who want to watch Stardust and people who are wrong.

[Ghosty]

Or, for all we know, "interested only in half-outsiders that speak blue-on-blue".

Grey Wolf

Somebody like Nuclear Dan, from that Another Gaming Comic linked here in an earlier strip's discussion thread.

So far, this Outsider's only gone after the bad guys.

Anyway, I will laugh if we never see this Soulknife/whatever he is again.

[TBone]

Anyone watch the fate anime? Arthur had excalibur shrouded in mist so she couldn't be identified as easily. Could his weapon simply be enchanted in some way? I'm getting a heavy paladin vibe from him. The speach bubble to me indicated extreme good. Like the holy word spell. It could also be a side effect of his helmet. Glowing eyes, awesome voice.

[blunk]

I'm really looking forward to ol' Poochie here going back to his home planet.

[Devonix]

Geez guys he's an unimportant side character with a cool design. Not the some new hero come to upstage our main characters.

[a_flemish_guy]

woot, I wish I'd had put my idea of logan being captain of the guard in my previous post

also technicly since sigdi was just a sergeant it means that logan doesn't have to listen to her
but like any good captain he knows that he should listen to the sergeant

[Ironsmith]

I imagine the debate is between people who want to watch Stardust and people who are wrong.

In my family, the former group is all-encompassing. Now, those who have read it, on the other hand...

[Jannoire]

Maybe that is Thad... He just won some cool magic items at the jelly cube races. And he didn't think durkon would recognize/remember him, so he introduced himself by how he is related to Durkon.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe that is Thad... He just won some cool magic items at the jelly cube races. And he didn't think durkon would recognize/remember him, so he introduced himself by how he is related to Durkon.

As opposed to "Hey, it's me, Thad, with a cool new mask and some fancy new powers."

Classic Thad.

[Jannoire]

As opposed to "Hey, it's me, Thad, with a cool new mask and some fancy new powers."

Classic Thad.

He's just Thad kind of guy (I'll show myself out for Thad Pun...)

But that theory doesn't work out, as Thad would've (probably) known Durkon and would already have a face to put to all those stories

[Ironsmith]

He's just Thad kind of guy (I'll show myself out for Thad Pun...)

But that theory doesn't work out, as Thad would've (probably) known Durkon and would already have a face to put to all those stories

Based on... being able to pick him out of a crowd and being related to him? It's just as viable that they're basically strangers who only know each other by reputation, Thad or not. (Actually, less so if he's not Thad, but still.)

[Resileaf]

Durkon, within five seconds of meeting not-Thad, was able to discern that it was indeed not Thad. I think we can trust his judgment on that.

[KorvinStarmast]

You mean the whole point of LOTR/Hobbit. It's quite different for Middle-earth as a whole, what with the hobbits being latecomers and barely featuring in the rest of the legendarium.

High Fantasy, Low Magic. That is Third Age Middle Earth.

In First Age, you can argue that it's a bit higher in Magic/High Fantasy, almost epic Greek Mythology level fantasy, given the Elven influence and the battles with demigods like Morgoth and Sauron, and epic level artifacts like the Silmarils. We even have a demigod, Melian, in Doriath whose powerful magic of place makes for a defensible magical-woods/nation. Demigods mating with mortals, or at least somewhat mortal (Elves) is also a feature of the High Fantasy/Mythic level of Middle Earth at that point.

In the Second Age there are spikes of Magic wherever the Numenoreans show up in Middle Earth, and where the Elves remain and are, as well as wherever the fallen demigod(Sauron) is. I am not sure if ME dwarven craft is considered magic.

In the third age, magic remains in spikes, but is again a scarcer commodity as the age progresses, various dragons are slain, the rings are returned to Sauron, elves migrate west via the Havens, and the Two Towers of High Sorcery (see what I did there?) concentrate magic into the hands of, once again, embodied spirits who are like lesser demigods. (Sauron and Saruman). The elvish magic become mostly "the magic of place" with the three rings being significant outliers. The destruction of Smaug, and the destruction or The One Ring significantly lowers the overall magic level at the end of the third age.

Magical entropy is shown in the slow movement of the Magical Beings West, to the undying lands, until (if one follows the trend line for long enough) eventually even Elrond will head West and Magic will leave Middle Eearth forever, as the Fourth Age becomes the age of Man.

[happycrow]

Giant battle, new supernaturally-powered guy on scene, and Durkon is focused on the happiness and quality of his family's relationships.

And THAT'S how Durkon uses his Wisdom score in battle despite having almost no ranks in knowledge: religion.

[hamishspence]

Finrod went toe to toe against Sauron, and he would have won the contest were not for the curse of Mandos...

Source on the Doom of the North having anything to do with it? It's about infighting and paranoia, not magic failing them.

Sauron wins the "music-off" by bringing up the actions of the Noldor that brought the curse of Mandos on them:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn-
And Finrod fell before the throne.

[woweedd]

High Fantasy, Low Magic. That is Third Age Middle Earth.

In First Age, you can argue that it's a bit higher in Magic/High Fantasy, almost epic Greek Mythology level fantasy, given the Elven influence and the battles with demigods like Morgoth and Sauron, and epic level artifacts like the Silmarils. We even have a demigod, Melian, in Doriath whose powerful magic of place makes for a defensible magical-woods/nation. Demigods mating with mortals, or at least somewhat mortal (Elves) is also a feature of the High Fantasy/Mythic level of Middle Earth at that point.

In the Second Age there are spikes of Magic wherever the Numenoreans show up in Middle Earth, and where the Elves remain and are, as well as wherever the fallen demigod(Sauron) is. I am not sure if ME dwarven craft is considered magic.

In the third age, magic remains in spikes, but is again a scarcer commodity as the age progresses, various dragons are slain, the rings are returned to Sauron, elves migrate west via the Havens, and the Two Towers of High Sorcery (see what I did there?) concentrate magic into the hands of, once again, embodied spirits who are like lesser demigods. (Sauron and Saruman). The elvish magic become mostly "the magic of place" with the three rings being significant outliers. The destruction of Smaug, and the destruction or The One Ring significantly lowers the overall magic level at the end of the third age.

Magical entropy is shown in the slow movement of the Magical Beings West, to the undying lands, until (if one follows the trend line for long enough) eventually even Elrond will head West and Magic will leave Middle Eearth forever, as the Fourth Age becomes the age of Man.

Well, yes. Middle Earth was intended as a sort of "mythology for England", a history that could serve as a fantasical ancestry to our own world.

[hamishspence]

It took two advanced Balrogs (one of which was the King of Balrogs) to defeat and capture Hùrin...

No it didn't. Hùrin never fought a Balrog, he was overrun by Orcs and Trolls and only fell when the weight of the cut hands of his foes that were still grasping him became too heavy.

I believe Hurin is being confused with Fingon. Fingon duelled Gothmog, and only lost when another Balrog joined in the fight, attacking him from behind.

[Fyraltari]

Sauron wins the "music-off" by bringing up the actions of the Noldor that brought the curse of Mandos on them:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn-
And Finrod fell before the throne.

First, even if I accept that this was instrumental in his defeat all that means is that the defeat and the curse have the same roots, not that he would have won without the Curse.
Second, Felagund wasn't part of the First Kinslaying has the House of Finarfin arrived last to Alqualonde, so even if bringing up an atrocity committed by the Elves was necessary to win (which I don't see, interpretations vary but it seems to me that Sauron needed only sing about dark things and chose the Kinslaying to be a ****, indeed the captives in Angband aren't the doing of the Elves) he could have talked about the slaughter of the Petty-Dwarves, for example.
Finally, "X won by doing this so if he couldn't his opponent would have won" is faulty logic on its own. Tùrin beat Maeglin by throwing him off a cliff but I see no reason to assue he would have lost if there was no cliff, likewise I don't see what would make anyone think the Felagund ever had chance against Sauron.

[hamishspence]

I will agree that "Felagund would otherwise have won" is rather extreme conjecture.

[hroþila]

Fëanor: *tries to fight a bunch of balrogs, is killed*
Maedhros: *is ambushed and captured by some balrogs*
Fingon: *fights one balrog, is killed when a second balrog intervenes*
Ecthelion: *fights one balrog, mutual kill*
Glorfindel: *fights one balrog, mutual kill*
Lúthien: *defeats ALL the balrogs by putting them to sleep*

Tinúviel best elf confirmed.

[Fyraltari]

Was that ever in question?

[zimmerwald1915]

Was that ever in question?

Well, Finrod's pretty well up there, and technically I don't think Luthien was an elf anymore after her petition to Mandos.

[Fyraltari]

Well, Finrod's pretty well up there, and technically I don't think Luthien was an elf anymore after her petition to Mandos.

Finrod Nom Felakgundu second best elf.
I mean she was an elf for most of her life.

[hroþila]

Lúthien also got Gandalf beat in the Fighting Balrogs department so I'm OK with just saying "Tinúviel best person confirmed".

For second best elf I'd like to nominate Mablung who keeps showing up late for everything but never stops running, bless his soul.

[Emanick]

For second best elf I'd like to nominate Mablung who keeps showing up late for everything but never stops running, bless his soul.

It’s been a while since I read The Silmarillion, but Mablung sounds like my spirit animal. (Spirit elf?)