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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Sorry, this is the RAW dysfunction thread, not the RAM ("Rules as meant") dysfunction thread.
    Not "meaning" as in "intent," "meaning" as in "what the actual written words mean." Or are you implying that all dysfunctions in this thread are uncooked?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Not "meaning" as in "intent," "meaning" as in "what the actual written words mean." Or are you implying that all dysfunctions in this thread are uncooked?
    Right, except that the actual written words don't mean that. The only way that...

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    the literal writing and the literal meaning
    ...can be two different things is if you accept that the latter is the intended meaning of the sentence, which deviates from the meaning which is written down. I'm only concerned with what is written, not what is meant.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Right, except that the actual written words don't mean that. The only way that...



    ...can be two different things is if you accept that the latter is the intended meaning of the sentence, which deviates from the meaning which is written down. I'm only concerned with what is written, not what is meant.
    You said this was the RAW dysfunction thread. Are cooked dysfunctions therefore not allowed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    You said this was the RAW dysfunction thread. Are cooked dysfunctions therefore not allowed?
    See, I'm not - or, I shouldn't be being - judged on whether what I say literally means what I intend it to mean. We judge the rules as written because a long time ago, someone decided that that was the thing that we would do, and made a thread about it. Further, we understand that "RAW" stands for "Rules as written". If Wizards of the Coast (That's the company, not a group of arcane spellcasters who live by the sea) had defined "Any extra items you might need" to mean something specific, we might have used a definition other than the literal one. In a real game, we would definitely do so. Being deliberately obtuse helps your case, and the discussion, not at all, and I think you know it, and choose to do it for exactly that reason.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    See, I'm not - or, I shouldn't be being - judged on whether what I say literally means what I intend it to mean. We judge the rules as written because a long time ago, someone decided that that was the thing that we would do, and made a thread about it. Further, we understand that "RAW" stands for "Rules as written". If Wizards of the Coast (That's the company, not a group of arcane spellcasters who live by the sea) had defined "Any extra items you might need" to mean something specific, we might have used a definition other than the literal one. In a real game, we would definitely do so. Being deliberately obtuse helps your case, and the discussion, not at all, and I think you know it, and choose to do it for exactly that reason.
    Or, I disagree with what comes across to me as an overly literal reading, and I'm responding by showing how that sort of reading doesn't actually work. This is thread for rules doing things they're not supposed to do, not rules that don't do what they're supposed to do when you ignore context and how phrases can have meanings distinct from their individual pieces.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Or, I disagree with what comes across to me as an overly literal reading, and I'm responding by showing how that sort of reading doesn't actually work.
    Taking things literally is the whole point. If you say "Well what they clearly MEAN is..." then there's no real value to anything that we do here.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Got another from the section on Truename magic. Utterances as potions, to be specific. From ToM 262:

    The potion will work only for creatures up to the CR the Truespeak check would affect. These potions have standard gp and experience point costs as described on page 284 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
    This means that a character might create or buy a potion that will not work for her until she gains a level or two, or that be might be usable for only a short while.
    So does the potion work on a creature "up to" its CR, or exactly its CR?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    So does the potion work on a creature "up to" its CR, or exactly its CR?
    Well, given that it's based on a truespeak check, and a truespeak check only has to equal or beat the DC, not equal it exactly, it's presumably meant to be the former.

    (You are, however, entirely correct that there's a contradiction, unless somehow you can lose challenge rating by gaining levels, which may be possible - in fact, it probably is somehow.)

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    So the decay domain's granted power tells you what to do with constructs with the living subtype and constructs without the living construct subtype. No word on what to do with constructs with the living construct subtype.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Because nothing other than type was updated for Hengeyokai in 3.5, Dog and Raccoon Dog Hengeyokai still get a +4 bonus to Wilderness Lore when tracking by scent in hybrid form. This is doubly dysfunctional, as not only is Wilderness Lore no longer a skill, but hybrid form Hengeyokai don't get the Scent ability anyway.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2017-05-03 at 01:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Because nothing other than type was updated for Hengeyokai in 3.5, Dog and Raccoon Dog Hengeyokai still get a +4 bonus to Wilderness Lore when tracking by scent in hybrid form. This is doubly dysfunctional, as not only is Wilderness Lore no longer a skill, but hybrid form Hengeyokai don't get the Scent ability anyway.
    I don't think errata needs to explicitly replace Alchemy or Wilderness Lore.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I don't think errata needs to explicitly replace Alchemy or Wilderness Lore.
    Maybe not, but they still can't get the skill bonus, as it specifically applies in hybrid form when tracking by scent, which they can't do.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Maybe not, but they still can't get the skill bonus, as it specifically applies in hybrid form when tracking by scent, which they can't do.
    If they get scent through some other means, they can benefit from it. Having an ability that is unusable isn't dysfunctional, just odd.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Taking things literally is the whole point. If you say "Well what they clearly MEAN is..." then there's no real value to anything that we do here.
    No it isn't. The point is to identify dysfunctions in the rules, not to see who has the best Amelia Bedelia impression. That falls under deliberate misreading.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    While I'm usually the first to point out when Jormengand is deliberately misreading something, I actually agree with this one. It actually does say that, and unlike things such as spells, there's no obvious distinction between rules and flavor text.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    It may not be 100% dysfunctional once you start imagining scenarios, but it always intrigued me that you could find a filled Iron Flask with creatures in it that would normally have a BASE Will save too high to be able to fail it even on a nat 1.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    It may not be 100% dysfunctional once you start imagining scenarios, but it always intrigued me that you could find a filled Iron Flask with creatures in it that would normally have a BASE Will save too high to be able to fail it even on a nat 1.
    Nobody has a base Will save too high to fail on a natural 1, because a natural 1 is an automatic failure barring some special ability that the listed monsters all lack.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Nobody has a base Will save too high to fail on a natural 1, because a natural 1 is an automatic failure barring some special ability that the listed monsters all lack.
    On saving throws? that's a thing? By Sparky... Guess I have another thread to visit.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    On saving throws? that's a thing? By Sparky... Guess I have another thread to visit.
    Yep. Pretty sure it's been that way since the first edition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Yep. Pretty sure it's been that way since the first edition.
    Definitely since 1st edition. I've lost more than one character to a nat1 in 1st edition.
    If it applies to editions before that (basic/expert D&D, or Chainmail or something), I don't recall. I've owned them, but didn't play them much.
    Last edited by Elkad; 2017-05-03 at 09:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Explorer's outfits also lead to this weird schrodinger's situation where it's impossible to know what any given set contains until you buy it. Bob and Jim, two level 4 sorcerers, walk into a clothing store and both buy an explorer's outfit. Bob only knows damage spells, so his set has torches in it. Jim however, learned Continual Flame, so his set does not contain a torch because he doesn't need one. No matter how many sets he buys his will never contain a torch, and if Bob packs all his stuff back together and then sells it to jim, it STILL won't have a torch in it for Jim, even though it did for Bob. Bit wonky for mundane clothing.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    No it isn't. The point is to identify dysfunctions in the rules, not to see who has the best Amelia Bedelia impression. That falls under deliberate misreading.
    Okay, here's a question: what do you think the sentence actually means, and where is your support, in the rules as they are written, for that belief? Because even a more charitable RAI meaning runs into dysfunctions where no-one's quite sure what you do and don't "need", as two people have already pointed out re "exploring-related" items (whatever those are) and whether or not your outfit contains X changing depending on whether or not you, personally, might need X.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    Explorer's outfits also lead to this weird schrodinger's situation where it's impossible to know what any given set contains until you buy it. Bob and Jim, two level 4 sorcerers, walk into a clothing store and both buy an explorer's outfit. Bob only knows damage spells, so his set has torches in it. Jim however, learned Continual Flame, so his set does not contain a torch because he doesn't need one. No matter how many sets he buys his will never contain a torch, and if Bob packs all his stuff back together and then sells it to jim, it STILL won't have a torch in it for Jim, even though it did for Bob. Bit wonky for mundane clothing.
    That would be true... until Jim used up all his spell slots for the day, but still needed a light to see by.

    Then it would have a torch.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I think it's a fun idea that the explorer's outfit is full of random stuff, but I'm not sure it's a 'dysfunction'. This bug is already a feature of the spell component pouch. It's weird as hell, but I think it may have been intended. You gotta include some trait to the outfits that justifies picking them over the light and cheap peasant's clothes. Besides, if the 'minor robe of useful items' gets game-breaking in what it provides (like the key to a specific locked door) the DM can get philosophical and ask the player what they truly 'need'.
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    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagroth View Post
    That would be true... until Jim used up all his spell slots for the day, but still needed a light to see by.

    Then it would have a torch.
    Unless one of those spell slots was used on Continual flame itself, because then he would already functionally have a torch; but not if he walked into an AMF at some point, when it would then have a torch again because the continual flame would fizzle. The rabbit hole goes quite deep apparently.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    You gotta include some trait to the outfits that justifies picking them over the light and cheap peasant's clothes.
    Actually, you don't. You get one outfit for free.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Actually, you don't. You get one outfit for free.
    Is it free of cost and weight? I realize that this is a safeguard against streaker optimization, but weightless clothes can bring their own weirdness.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Is it free of cost and weight? I realize that this is a safeguard against streaker optimization, but weightless clothes can bring their own weirdness.
    I believe the outfit currently worn does not count for weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Is it free of cost and weight? I realize that this is a safeguard against streaker optimization, but weightless clothes can bring their own weirdness.
    It is free of cost and weight, but you must choose from one of seven outfits spelled out in the PHB

    EDIT: But the explorer's outfit is on it. I missed that.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    While I'm usually the first to point out when Jormengand is deliberately misreading something, I actually agree with this one. It actually does say that, and unlike things such as spells, there's no obvious distinction between rules and flavor text.
    Honestly, I don't even remember what dysfunction that post is referring to, I just object on principle. And I stand by my objection. This thread is NOT about wacky literal misinterpretations of the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Okay, here's a question: what do you think the sentence actually means, and where is your support, in the rules as they are written, for that belief? Because even a more charitable RAI meaning runs into dysfunctions where no-one's quite sure what you do and don't "need", as two people have already pointed out re "exploring-related" items (whatever those are) and whether or not your outfit contains X changing depending on whether or not you, personally, might need X.
    Oh, was that the rule in question? Yeah, I dunno, I haven't looked at the reference.

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