[Cheese] Eight Levels Of Class Features For The Price Of Three

[Fax Celestis]

With the cunning use of two prestige classes, one can acquire several levels' class features for the price of one level. Watch and learn:

All you'll need is to be tenth level, possess a Legacy item, and know a few skill tricks.

First, you take a level of Uncanny Trickster, and one of Legacy Champion. This is just the setup. Now, for your next level, take another level of Legacy Champion. Use Legacy Champion's "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" to take a pseudolevel of Uncanny Trickster.

Then, use Uncanny Trickster's "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" that you just gained to take a pseudolevel of Legacy Champion.

Use Legacy Champion's "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" to take a pseudolevel of Uncanny Trickster.

Use Uncanny Trickster's "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" to take a pseudolevel of Legacy Champion.

And use Legacy Champion's "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" to take a pseudolevel of any class you like.

EDIT: Do note: all you'll get from this maneuver is eight levels' class features compressed into a single level, but you'll retain the BAB, saves, HD, and skills of only one level. Your ECL will also remain the same.

[Shadow]

I'm not familiar with either of these classes, but something about this seems very, very wrong....

[Ulzgoroth]

That's what the [Cheese] tag is intended to indicate, I think...

[Shadow]

Oh no, I know that. I was just musing with my fingers.....

[Alveanerle]

Isn't it true that all those "+1 to existing class" features apply only to base classes? I mean, can you apply those to prestige classes?

[Fax Celestis]

Isn't it true that all those "+1 to existing class" features apply only to base classes? I mean, can you apply those to prestige classes?

They can apply to any class, including PrCs.

[Anxe]

The best PrC cheese I ever came up with was being a Shadowbane Inquistor Blackguard. This one is much better. How do those "+1 to existing class" work with monster classes?

[Aximili]

EDIT: Do note: all you'll get from this maneuver is eight levels' class features compressed into a single level, but you'll retain the BAB, saves, HD, and skills of only one level. Your ECL will also remain the same.

EDITED:okay, but you're not getting that many class features. These 2 classes really won't grant you so much stuff.

[Fax Celestis]

EDITED:okay, but you're not getting that many class features. These 2 classes really won't grant you so much stuff.

They do, but they don't, granted. LegCham gives you a bunch of ways to modify and better utilize a Legacy Weapon, while Uncanny Trickster gets you a few skill tricks and a better method of utilizing them.

Granted, this isn't stinky cheese, but it is pretty cheesy. More a gouda than a limburger.

[Arakune]

so, you max out two PrC 'levels' for purpose of taking class features and get one extra level in anything for free? Sweet!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They can apply to any class, including PrCs.

No, you have to have a base class to apply to. Just like you can't take a level of Mystic Theurge then go into another full spellcasting PrC and use the MT 'spellcasting progression' to advance in both arcane and divine casting, you cannot apply bonuses to bonuses.

[Gralamin]

No, you have to have a base class to apply to. Just like you can't take a level of Mystic Theurge then go into another full spellcasting PrC and use the MT 'spellcasting progression' to advance in both arcane and divine casting, you cannot apply bonuses to bonuses.

Say your a fighter. If you have Prestige class X that gives you divine casting, and you have prestige class Y that gives you arcane casting, then you could enter into MT and improve both their spellcasting. It is allowed.

[Bauglir]

Yes. If you want to think about it, those "+1 levels" aren't bonuses so much as actual increases, in much the same way that, while you gain +1 to an ability score from leveling, those additions aren't bonuses; they're actual increases. So actually, your example of a why this doesn't work DOES, in fact, work.

[Cejer]

I hereby invoke rule four of The Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization. As such, no DM in their right mind should allow this in a game. However, it is an interesting find for theoretical optimization.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Say your a fighter. If you have Prestige class X that gives you divine casting, and you have prestige class Y that gives you arcane casting, then you could enter into MT and improve both their spellcasting. It is allowed.

But both PrC X and Y must have a given spellcasting progression, not "+1 existing spell level", Mystic theurge does not have spellcasting, it only advances the spellcasting you already have. Same case with this trick. It doesn't work.

To give another example. The PrC Slayer has '+1 existing manifesting' on 9/10. If you have no base manifesting class, this ability is worthless, because you have nothing to increase. It is not a base progression. However, the PrC Concecrated Harrier has a given (crappy) spell progression, so you could use that as your 'base spellcasting progression' with a PrC which continues spellcasting progression.

[Roog]

EDIT: Do note: all you'll get from this maneuver is eight levels' class features compressed into a single level, but you'll retain the BAB, saves, HD, and skills of only one level. Your ECL will also remain the same.

But thats seven levels of crappy class features and one (hopefully) decent one.

IMO, one reason Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion have the "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" class feature is that their other features are not worth while by themselves.


Possibly another thing the "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" class feature could be used for, is for a Gestalt character to advance the class features of two similar classes simultaneously while avoiding the similarity in HP/BAB/saves/skills of the two classes.
I.e. use Uncanny Trickster to advance two full BAB type classes class features while gaining Rogue type skills and saves, or Legacy Champion to advance two full magic user type classes class features while gaining better BAB/HP/skills.

[MrNexx]

The interplay between +1 level of class and a class having its own spellcasting progression is kind of interesting.

In 3.0 (especially FR), a lot of PrCs had their own spellcasting progressions, with their own spell lists, instead of a +1 spell level. What this meant is that many of the classes set up for spellcasters were also not directly contributing to stacking spellcasting power; you'd have more low level spells, but you wouldn't have the upper level abilities, nor the breadth of abilities that a high level wizard or cleric could boast. A really interesting example of this is the Nar Demonbinder... they had their own spellcasting progression, but unlike all others I've seen, it started with level 4 spells.

In 3.5, many of these classes were changed to +1 spellcasting progressions. Maybe not 1/1 spellcasting progressions, but 4/5, 3/5, 9/10, etc.. This means that a lot of PrCs which used to be tightly focused on a single thing, providing spells which improved their discipline, now contributed directly to the power stacking of the character.

[0oo0]

But both PrC X and Y must have a given spellcasting progression, not "+1 existing spell level", Mystic theurge does not have spellcasting, it only advances the spellcasting you already have. Same case with this trick. It doesn't work.

To give another example. The PrC Slayer has '+1 existing manifesting' on 9/10. If you have no base manifesting class, this ability is worthless, because you have nothing to increase. It is not a base progression. However, the PrC Concecrated Harrier has a given (crappy) spell progression, so you could use that as your 'base spellcasting progression' with a PrC which continues spellcasting progression.

I don't think this applies in the cases at hand. You are perfectly right in the spell casting area, but this is giving classes features, one of which just happens to be a free level of class features. Since it is specifically in the class features column of the class table, I'm pretty sure this cheese works.