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2020-04-22, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-22, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Even the attitude with which the request is made is wrong. There are only two Blades left. Their best asset is the Dragonborn. And they act as if he needs them?
It's even wrong on a logical level. Delphine wants you to kill Paarthurnax because his help isn't needed anymore. But you don't need her help, either. So, by her own logic, you don't owe her anything.
Thanks, it currently doesn't sound like my cup of tea, but I could do a free weekend. One more question, how do societies feel like? Does it feel like a "world" or just like a "place with quest givers"?Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-04-22, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-04-22, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
I keep meaning to for completion's sake but haven't been able to bring myself to do it.
It's a test of loyalty. (...and Bethesda being heavy-handed with meaningless binary choices, but I digress.) They want to know they can depend on you not to turn on them later, and killing Paarth makes very sure you can't change your mind after the fact. Do recall that the Blades were thrown under the bus by the Empire they'd been fighting and dying for when Emperor Mede signed the White Gold Concordant. And they've been watching over their shoulders for longer than some of the player base has been alive, knowing their fellow Blades were being hunted down and tortured to death, and they'd be next if they let their guard down. It's natural for them to be distrustful; Paarthurnax even notes he would be distrustful of himself if he were in their place ('Onikaan ni ov dovah'). They are admittedly not going about it the right way, but both of them are probably in dire need of therapy at this point.
Also, neither of them has actually met Paarthurnax, so all they have to go on is that he used to be Alduin's right-hand dragon and turned traitor at one point. If they actually sat down and had a conversation with him, they might feel differently.
Now, if they had asked me to kill Arngeir instead...then I would have been perfectly happy to shank the old git for them.
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2020-04-22, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-22, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Yeah, I don't buy it. Or rather, that may have been the intent, but it doesn't connect at all to the actual act. Besides establishing that they exist to serve the dragonborn, theyre an intelligence group. They've been dragonslaying for like a week when we come along. We have as much right to decide the agenda as they do. More, really, since they downright tell us were supposed to be in charge. And now suddenly theyre ordering us, their only ally and the only one capable of actually meaningfully pursue their agenda, to go act against our interests or they stop providing us their non-assistance? Why do we even care what they think at this point?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-04-22, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
This is my major issue with the Blades remnants in general. They act as if they're entitled not only to your help, but your unwavering SERVITUDE. It is very clear they don't see the Dragonborn as a person, but as a tool, and a tool they have little faith in at that, even though by the time you meet Delphine you're strong enough to slaughter monsters she has no hope of touching (and only scale up from there) and never needed her help in the first place. The Blades provide basically nothing of value towards completing the main questline and yet see themselves as the invaluable asset in every scenario, even though what they do largely amounts to sitting around on their asses and asking you to figure out the problem.
This isn't a problem unique to the Blades remnants as NPCs in Bethesda games (or many other RPGs for that matter), but the sheer unmitigated SMUGNESS of them about it is certainly unusual.
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2020-04-22, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Have you played Wolfenstein (2014 and 2015)? It's like they saw that scene in Bioshock Infinite where you choose between two pendants for Elizabeth and they went, "wow, that's really cool, let's do it too -- with PEOPLE!".
I think that they should have given you a hard reason to help them. Like, you need a trinket, but Delphine has it, and she'll only give it to you if you kill Paar. Then give you some alternate options, like make Esbern happy somehow and have him convince Delphine, or have a charisma check with Delphine to solve everything quickly, or just kill Delphine and steal the item (maybe a seal you need to assemble the council on the mountain).
It doesn't take long to think of other options, but it really wasn't the writing style Beth was going after.Last edited by Vinyadan; 2020-04-22 at 04:54 PM.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-04-22, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
The weird thing being that Bioshock Infinite put that choice in it to be an in-universe experiment by the Lutece twins. it has no effect on anything, the Lutece twins just do it for science to observe the variations of different realities that the protagonist makes through the choice, because they know that sometimes things are constant and sometimes they aren't, but not why. so they find a point where the possibility can vary and try to put a choice there to see what happens, and nothing did. while for the player out of game, the choice ends up being symbolic but given that both symbols can be interpreted to be helping her attain freedom....
I don't know, seems to be more of a psychological experiment than a metaphysical one.
But yeah meaningless choices in games are bad.
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2020-04-22, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
I don't know if that's what you mean, but I didn't mean to say that the choices in Bioshock Infinite are bad*; they are free of consequence, but help you enter the character and the world. My feeling is that Bethesda missed the point there, and that it instead ended up delivering a message of "let's make the player powerless" (that's how I felt the choices in Wolfenstein), without picking up on it and using or solving the problem (powerlessness) as a point in a more global narrative.
I do believe that Skyrim took at least one element from the original Bioshock, the round holes from which spider centurions come out look a lot like the holes through which the little sisters move.
*however, someone got an article on Wikipedia about how he didn't like the choices in Bioshock. I think he completely missed the point, but I only skimmed the original blogpost.Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-04-22, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
I'm just saying to agree with you that yes, generally meaningless choices are bad unless the narrative supports the choice being intentionally meaningless, because some people dislike the choices being meaningless regardless, especially in a game like skyrim where its a sandbox. I didn't want to look like I was saying they were good in a thread where its likely I would have people arguing with me about choices being meaningful, y'know how it is, clarification of my stance to make sure and all that.
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2020-04-22, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Since we are on page 49, what's the choice for a new title?
"Elder Scrolls XVI: The Sixteen Kingdoms"The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2020-04-22, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Elder Scrolls XVI: So Hyped for Skyrim II
A diamond necklace played the pawn
Hand in hand some drummed along, oh
To a handsome man and baton (Bygone, bygone)
A blind class aristocracy
Back through the opera glass you see
The pit and the pendulum drawn (Bygone, bygone)
Columnated ruins domino
My avatar was made by a very lovely chap by the name of smutmulch. That was very cool of them.
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2020-04-23, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Elder Scrolls XVI: Legally allowed to drive a cart into Skyrim
Edit: Wait, is this title too long?Last edited by Resileaf; 2020-04-23 at 01:15 AM.
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2020-04-23, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
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2020-04-23, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Just a few suggestions:
Elder Scrolls XVI: Still Playing Skyblivionwind
Elder Scrolls XVI: Your Time to CHIM
Elder Scrolls XVI: Random Convict Saves World! Again!
Elder Scrolls XVI: Mods are Skyrim's Phylactery
Elder Scrolls XVI: Skyblivionwind Never Dies
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2020-04-23, 04:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Elder Scrolls XVI: Even the Vampires are Coffin'
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2020-04-23, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Short answer? He does all the same things Delphine does re: bossing me around, but with less incentive to do so.
Longer answer: Almost as soon as I get to High Hrothgar, he's gushing about what an honor it is to train me, how my existence means it is a time of great need, blessing from the gods blah blah blah - then almost immediately whips around and demands I do a meaningless fetch quest before he'll help me any farther. (That was so whiplash-y for me that I dumped the main quest for quite some time on my first playthrough. )
Later on, I find out he's been deliberately keeping secrets from me. His excuse for this is that I was 'not ready.' I had a math teacher who pulled that at one point, but the math teacher was up front about the fact that they were leaving things out and that we would get to them later. The fact that Arngeir never does that tells me he never intended to tell me in the first place, he's just making excuses for trying to manipulate me.
The Greybeards are an order of pacifists. There is no good reason for them to manipulate me. In contrast, the Blades are a spy network. Security 101 is that no one is supposed to have more information than they need to do their job; keeping secrets even from each other is what they're supposed to do, so if there's a breach the amount of damage done to the group as a whole is minimized. The Blades are also fighting for their lives, which the Greybeards aren't, they get nothing from me taking up a life of pacifism other than the ability to pat themselves on the back because they finally convinced a Dragonborn to adopt their worldview, never mind how much of the world burns as a result.
The only reason Arngeir doesn't get the hate Delphine does is because he doesn't ask you to directly kill a friendly NPC. The fact that he tries to convince the Dragonborn not to save the world, thereby letting everyone on it die somehow seems to escape much notice. :P
Objection; YOU might have been an unstoppable god-killer by that point but I was low-level and squishy my first playthrough.
But here's the thing: Arngeir does the same thing. He actually does it sooner, before you meet Paarthurnax, and one of the other human Greybeards has to break silence to call him out on it.
I blame Bethesda for this; there should be some serious benefit from siding with one faction or the other, but they want all choices to be consequence-free so everyone can do everything.
I have not. Could you explain the context please?
Elder Scrolls XVI: It's Never Ataxia
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2020-04-23, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
To sum it up, one of the first scenes in Wolfenstein 2014 is that you and your squad are railroaded into being physically pinned down by bad guys. All you can do is look around, and an evil doctor tells you to choose which one of your friends must be used for experiments. If you don't choose, depending on its version, the game will simply not proceed or someone will instakill you. The choice is given a lot of prominence, but I don't think it was appropriate, as you have some other four or five cool side-characters, so it gets a bit drowned out, and the very little differences in gameplay have more achievements and completionism in mind, than giving a different playing experience. I also didn't enjoy the "to play this game, you have to bend yourself to the Nazi doctor's wishes" part.
In W. 2015, you have two nice side-characters (partisans or civilians) fighting zombies in houses on the opposite sides of a hallway, and you are not allowed to save them both, but you do get a good view of the death of the one you didn't reach (it's mandatory that one dies). Here there is no impact, and it's really all about which one you like more, which is OK in theory, but you don't know that when you choose where to go for the first time, so it may force you to restart the level if you care about it and saved the wrong one.
By contrast, Bioshock Infinite has a few moments where you can make a choice (to throw something during the public shaming of an interracial couple or to throw it at a shamer; to choose a pendant for your sidekick; to shoot first at a civilian who is clearly cooking up something bad; and probably a couple more). These choices have almost zero impact within the game, but they really help you enter your character and the world he moves in (and sometimes produce visual cues that become relevant later on).Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-04-23, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
My problem isn't that it is a meaningless choice (there are gameplay and character implications both) so much as the fact that its just plain a really easy choice. The Blades don't really do anything helpful they way the Greybeards do, and Paarthurnax himself is a nice guy to you. Meanwhile the blades are trying to blackmail you into following their own agenda out of nowhere when theyre supposed to be working on yours. I doubt there is a single player who didn't, upon hearing that, immediately think some variation of "ok, if you don't want to do your job, then youre fired. Bye."
As for Arngeir, he only refuses to help you if youre impertinent with him and act as though you automatically know what is best, and even then its more of a "im not going to give you access to the nuclear weapons console just because you asked" refusal than "I actively don't like your agenda and want to see you fail"Last edited by Keltest; 2020-04-23 at 09:31 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-04-23, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-23, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-04-23, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Elder Scrolls XVI: Dude, Where's My Pauldron?
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2020-04-23, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-23, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
Practical Magical Gadgetry - A Guide to Artificers
Avatar courtesy of the webcomic Aurora, drawn by Red
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2020-04-23, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Last edited by factotum; 2020-04-23 at 02:28 PM.
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2020-04-23, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2020-04-23, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Elder Scrolls XVI: Why do I want to play Skyrim again?
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2020-04-23, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick
Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn To Carry Your Burdens...
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2020-04-23, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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