Rules Questions

[Amon Star]

This isn't true. When you initiate an attack on a monster in the same square, you can choose to attack or defend. If a weapon or magic schtick has a range, it is still not considered a ranged attack when used at range 0, so you still get the choice between attack and defense.

If you attack a player however, you must always attack.

The rules state that you are attacking if:
-you havent moved yet
-you are attacking a player
-you killed a monster and wish to continue you may choose to attack

All other times you are defending

It's right there on the back of the rules card. Thus if you are getting into combat with a monster when you start in the room, the first scenario is true and you're attacking

NOTE: If you want to start a battle by defending againt a monster in your room... you CAN use the Screw This! Card "Surprise" at the beginning of your turn so you are now on the defense... (I Think)

Well, pinch my cheek and call me Susan. Here we've been playing that all wrong, but it's spelt out clearly enough. Thanks.

Actually, Arcade was right the first time. You may always choose to defend against monsters in non-ranged combat. An example is given in the comic provided, 's battle to be specific. He chose to defend against the Cowardly Kobold.

[lokistang]

That is how loot works. You have to realize though that getting all of that loot back is pretty tough and likely not worth the big bonus you are getting in return. Maybe if you are fighting Xykon, but that's about it.

thank you for the answer, rules where a little unclear the way i read them

[apegamer]

I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.

It's likely that I'm just being dense, but I don't understand the question. Are you asking why the bonuses don't seem to fit thematically?

[apegamer]

Back on page 4 The Giant says the opposite.



Consensus?

He's right - the 5th bullet under Area Effect Shticks on page 18 clarifies that the stack can be affected, even if the monster itself cannot. Note that Xykon would still count in the number of monsters affected by the Area Effect shtick (if it was V's Fireball instead of Durkon's Turn Undead, for instance.)

I've edited my response below. I need to start carrying a copy of the rules with me - or stop answering questions unless the rules are in front of me.

[apegamer]

Actually, Arcade was right the first time. You may always choose to defend against monsters in non-ranged combat. An example is given in the comic provided, 's battle to be specific. He chose to defend against the Cowardly Kobold.

Wait, no! Melange's response below was 100% correct. In the example you use, Elan is fighting the second monster in the room, and so can choose whether he's attacking or defending.

Also, to answer the question about Surprise, you CAN play it on yourself.

[Amon Star]

Wait, no! Melange's response below was 100% correct. In the example you use, Elan is fighting the second monster in the room, and so can choose whether he's attacking or defending.

Also, to answer the question about Surprise, you CAN play it on yourself.

Unless I misread what Melange wrote, he seems to be implying that you MUST attack in those situation given. This isn't the case, because unless it's Ranged, Area or PvP, you always have the option of defending.

[apegamer]

Unless I misread what Melange wrote, he seems to be implying that you MUST attack in those situation given. This isn't the case, because unless it's Ranged, Area or PvP, you always have the option of defending.

To put it another way, if you do not move on your turn, you're attacking the first monster. If you DO move on your turn, you're defending against the first monster. The exception to this is if you move on your turn and you're PvP'ing; in which case you're attacking.

After the first monster, you can decide whether to attack or defend additional monsters in the room. If you did an attack into another room with a ranged schtick, you CANNOT attack additional monsters.

[Theli]

Since we're on the subject... There's no problem with moving to a safe spot, say a room with a player and no monsters or the safe room in Xykon's Lair (assuming no monsters have been moved there through Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion), and then range attacking. Right?

An example in the manual says you can, but I'm not sure if there's any actual rules text that gives you that capability.

[apegamer]

Since we're on the subject... There's no problem with moving to a safe spot, say a room with a player and no monsters or the safe room in Xykon's Lair (assuming no monsters have been moved there through Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion), and then range attacking. Right?

An example in the manual says you can, but I'm not sure if there's any actual rules text that gives you that capability.

You cannot move and make a ranged attack. This is specifically stated in the third bullet under Ranged Attack on page 12. The example on that page shows Haley moving and then attacking Belkar, who's in the same room as her after the movement. In this case she's using a ranged shtick, but it's not a ranged attack, since it's at range 0. In fact, this example specifically points out that Haley cannot attack the creatures at range, because she moved.

[Theli]

Oh, right. Not sure why I thought otherwise. Thanks.

[Amon Star]

To put it another way, if you do not move on your turn, you're attacking the first monster. If you DO move on your turn, you're defending against the first monster. The exception to this is if you move on your turn and you're PvP'ing; in which case you're attacking. *Snip*

Hmm, my group has been doing that one wrong. Thanks.

[Mystweaver]

Question (only played once and couldnt find a clarification)

If all Battle Deck cards are in play, in hand or discarded.... what then happens? No new monsters? or is the discard pile reshuffled and put back into play as the battle deck?

[The Giant]

Something about Haley has been bugging me.... Her Longbow and Sneak Attack seem backwards. Her Longbow increases her defense and range, and her sneak attack increases her Attack at range 0. This seems counter intuitive, since you cannot make ranged defenses (unless against the Surprise Screw This card),

You still can (and often do) use a shtick with Range at Range 0 to Defend against a monster whose room you just entered. If Haley walks into an empty room and someone plays a Black Dragon, she is required to use Defense to fight it, so having a higher Defense on her Longbow is still very helpful.

The increase in Range, however, is not intended to necessarily be used directly in conjunction with the increase in Defense. Having a second Longbow card thus helps you out when you are defending (by increasing the Defense) OR when you are making a ranged attack (by increasing the Range), and also helps doubly in the rare instance of having to make a ranged defense (such as against another player or against the Surprise! card). It's not counter-intuitive so much as it is multi-functional.

and you really don't want to attack from melee with Haley, the whole point of her is attacking from range...(SNIP) This just seems to make more sense considering how her moves are used and how she is expected to be played...

Your mistake is that you are assuming you know how she is meant to be played, and then being confused when the cards don't work out that way. Your fundamental assumption, however, is not necessarily correct. Attacking from melee is, in fact, a much stronger option for Haley much of the time, especially if she has multiple Sneak Attacks in play, because she gets to recover Loot afterwards. Only Vaarsuvius is actually (almost) always stronger in a Ranged Attack (largely because of the Area Effect rules and the 1-Wound penalty for Fireballing in the same room).

[The Giant]

I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?

This is correct, but as mentioned, it's a very poor strategy unless you are fighting Xykon himself. (And even then, you might end up losing the game if you give away all your Loot.)

[talonos]

Okay. Strange situation. Literally, it stopped our game cold, and until the question is answered, both me and my opponent refuse to continue.

I am Belkar. Haley is three rooms away, as such:

[B][ ][ ][H]

I declare that I am leaping attacking Haley with my Twin Daggers of Doom. (I have three leap attacks, so she's just in range.) As we're discussing combat bonuses, Roy party leader Vetos one of my leaping attacks. My shtick no longer has enough range to reach the target. Argument ensues. I pointed out that in the FAQ, it was stated that he can't use his party leader veto unless its the begining of his turn, so Elan DUN DUN DUNs me instead, flipping my leaping attack. End result is the same, and argument resumes.

So, what happens?

Roy, of course, is arguing for heavy punition. He says that because I no longer have the range, I can't use that shtick in combat. However, I had already selected it, so I can't go back and select my, say, verbal abuse shtick instead, because Elan waited until after phase one, (select your shtick) shtick, to do so. Thus, I must fight without a shtick, attacking for zero against Haley's longbow, likely getting hit, and staying in my room.

I think that if my leaping attack shtick is flipped, it's too late to cancel the attack. I attack Haley (Because the attack has already been declared, and, of course, Elan waited until after I had selected a shtick to flip my card, and when I selected it, my card was still perfectly valid) but only get a +2 bonus to my attack (because I only had two unflipped copies of leaping attack by the time I got there.) I attack for one less than I meant to, but I still attack, and move into the room when I'm done.

Other possibilities for the outcome of the battle could include:

- Too little too late. No change in combat.
- Now that I lack range to attack, I can't use that shtick. I switch to verbal abuse instead.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. My turn ends as I sit in a Belkar sulk.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. Instead, I use my turn to use my range 2 leaping attack to hit Elan, instead. The little weasel.

Of course, if the ruling is in my favor, Elan will then simply say "Never mind. I'll flip your twin daggers of doom instead. (I currently only have one copy.) If he does, I'm faced with the same situation. I can't attack like I intended to.

[Totally Guy]

It's the fact that the boost affecting range is essential for the attack to go ahead that makes this an issue. Without the boost the attack seems to be invalidated.

When we play Dun Dun DUN we choose it to flip a shtick that has already been selected (as we don't generally give a chance to respond phase a la Magic the Gathering as it isn't needed often enough). Then the player chooses another shtick.

Going with that interpretation and then the rules it goes like this.

As Talonos stated it goes different was depending on the chain that logic follows.
"I attack Haley with twin daggers of doom!" as Phase 1 you identify shtick you're using and declare the target at phase one of battling.
Dun Dun DUN!
If Belkar cannot choose another shtick with adequate range he then has to battle shtickless (as the scenario where someone plays a Surprise! card on a monster that goes on to perform a range attack).
If he can he should switch to another schtick like verbal abuse.
The battle is definitly happening as all players have seen the declaration. And the Dun Dun DUN! seals the deal as without a battle it couldn't have been played. So there is no backing out. And you can't select a Hide shtick either as you are the attacker.

versus
"I declare a ranged attack phase anybody want to respond?"
"Yes, I Dun Dun DUN! your twin daggers of doom"
"Well I verbal abuse a nearby Elan."
Which I don't think is right as attacking makes both the shtick and target known at the start of the battle.

Hard question.

[The Giant]

Okay. Strange situation. Literally, it stopped our game cold, and until the question is answered, both me and my opponent refuse to continue.

I am Belkar. Haley is three rooms away, as such:

[B][ ][ ][H]

I declare that I am leaping attacking Haley with my Twin Daggers of Doom. (I have three leap attacks, so she's just in range.) As we're discussing combat bonuses, Roy party leader Vetos one of my leaping attacks. My shtick no longer has enough range to reach the target. Argument ensues. I pointed out that in the FAQ, it was stated that he can't use his party leader veto unless its the begining of his turn, so Elan DUN DUN DUNs me instead, flipping my leaping attack. End result is the same, and argument resumes.

So, what happens?

Roy, of course, is arguing for heavy punition. He says that because I no longer have the range, I can't use that shtick in combat. However, I had already selected it, so I can't go back and select my, say, verbal abuse shtick instead, because Elan waited until after phase one, (select your shtick) shtick, to do so. Thus, I must fight without a shtick, attacking for zero against Haley's longbow, likely getting hit, and staying in my room.

I think that if my leaping attack shtick is flipped, it's too late to cancel the attack. I attack Haley (Because the attack has already been declared, and, of course, Elan waited until after I had selected a shtick to flip my card, and when I selected it, my card was still perfectly valid) but only get a +2 bonus to my attack (because I only had two unflipped copies of leaping attack by the time I got there.) I attack for one less than I meant to, but I still attack, and move into the room when I'm done.

Other possibilities for the outcome of the battle could include:

- Too little too late. No change in combat.
- Now that I lack range to attack, I can't use that shtick. I switch to verbal abuse instead.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. My turn ends as I sit in a Belkar sulk.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. Instead, I use my turn to use my range 2 leaping attack to hit Elan, instead. The little weasel.

Of course, if the ruling is in my favor, Elan will then simply say "Never mind. I'll flip your twin daggers of doom instead. (I currently only have one copy.) If he does, I'm faced with the same situation. I can't attack like I intended to.

The key piece of evidence is on Page 12, second column, second paragraph. It reads:

You must select a shtick that has Range equal to or greater to the Range between you and your foe you are Attacking. If you have no such shtick, you may not make a Ranged Attack at all.

At all. Meaning that once you no longer have the capacity to Attack Haley at that Range, you can not initiate a Ranged Attack, and therefore, there is no battle happening at all. If you DO have another shtick with Range, then you must use that other shtick, because you're only "off the hook" for the Ranged Attack if you have "no such shtick".

There seems to be a misinterpretation in your group about what happens when someone flips your battle shtick. You may immediately select another available battle shtick, even though you're technically past Phase One. Only if you have no other battle shticks must you battle with no shtick. When someone flips the Battle Shtick you are using, it essentially resets the battle to Phase One while you select another shtick.

So, in this situation, Elan would flip one of your Leaping Attacks. Since your Twin Daggers of Doom no longer has sufficient Range to reach Haley, you must choose another shtick immediately. You must choose Verbal Abuse, and proceed, because you're not allowed to voluntarily cancel the battle if you have a means of continuing it. If you did NOT have Verbal Abuse, flipping your Leaping Attack would mean that you could not initiate a Ranged Attack, and the battle would stop there because the specific rule about Ranged Attacks demands that it stop there. You couldn't switch your battle to Elan or someone else, though, you would just be out of luck.

Note also that this only applies to Ranged Attacks. If someone flipped Haley's Longbow in the same scenario and she had no other battle shticks, she'd be screwed and have to battle with no shtick.

[apegamer]

Hard question.

Hard question indeed. I'm going to talk to Rich about this. I know how we play, but I want to be sure that it's consistent with his thinking before posting.

[The Giant]

The battle is definitly happening as all players have seen the declaration. And the Dun Dun DUN! seals the deal as without a battle it couldn't have been played. So there is no backing out.

This is absolutely wrong. "Players seeing the declaration" is no standard in these rules; if the attack is disallowed by the rules, then it doesn't happen. You can't voluntarily call off the battle because someone flipped your card, but if them flipping your card makes the battle actually by-the-rules illegal, then the battle doesn't happen.

And there is no twisted logic that says that it has to happen or else the Dun Dun DUN! wouldn't have been played; the card was the CAUSE of the battle not happening in the first place. If a card negates a battle, then the battle is negated, period. This isn't a time travel paradox, it's a board game.

[The Giant]

Hard question indeed. I'm going to talk to Rich about this. I know how we play, but I want to be sure that it's consistent with his thinking before posting.

Heh, looks like I jumped in before you, sorry.

[SKarious]

Okay, not a rules question exactly, but what use is V's "Buff spell" shtick? Seems like you can only use it on another player, only when aiding them and you don't even get anything in return.
Any strategies for using this un-V-like extra effort?

[apegamer]

Okay, not a rules question exactly, but what use is V's "Buff spell" shtick? Seems like you can only use it on another player, only when aiding them and you don't even get anything in return.
Any strategies for using this un-V-like extra effort?

It's Karma-riffic! Really - there are things in the game that don't directly benefit you. Plus, I don't think it's quite right to say that V doesn't perform selfless acts for the good of the party.

[SKarious]

Oh, thank you. I get it now.
Increasing goodwill between the players is always good. Especially for V.
Speaking of V, another question about area attacks: do I get to apply my bonuses vs ALL types of creatures caught in the blast?

example: I'm fireballing a room with an undead and a dragon, suppose the undead is "on top" and has a higher defese, so he's defending.
1) If I have the "cleverness" loot (+2 vs. dragons), do I add it to my roll?
2) How about if I also have a "magical garlic press" (+2 vs. undead) do I add +2? +4?

[apegamer]

Oh, thank you. I get it now.
Increasing goodwill between the players is always good. Especially for V.
Speaking of V, another question about area attacks: do I get to apply my bonuses vs ALL types of creatures caught in the blast?

example: I'm fireballing a room with an undead and a dragon, suppose the undead is "on top" and has a higher defese, so he's defending.
1) If I have the "cleverness" loot (+2 vs. dragons), do I add it to my roll?
2) How about if I also have a "magical garlic press" (+2 vs. undead) do I add +2? +4?

This is actually addressed in the FAQ. Okay, I need to post the latest version of the FAQ, but here's the clip...

Q: If I battle with an Area Effect shtick against a group of monsters
containing more than one monster type, and I have a shtick that
provides a bonus to my Attack for monsters of one of those types,
can I add that bonus to my battle roll?
A: Yes. For example, if you use Fireball to Attack a Dragon and a Goblin
while you have a Loot that provides +2 Attack against Goblins, you
add +2 to your Attack Roll.

So you'd get the +4 to your roll with both your bonuses.

[Leeroy_Jenkins]

You may immediately select another available battle shtick, even though you're technically past Phase One. Only if you have no other battle shticks must you battle with no shtick.

How can you have a shtickless ranged attack? What is the range on a shtickless range attack?

I would think, once the Dun dun DUN! prevented the leaping attack, if you could not fall back on another ranged shtick (i.e., Verbal Abuse), then you simply don't attack, and your turn is wasted (by the effective application of a Screw This! card).

[Totally Guy]

Haley's Disarm trap shtick, is it aided by other bits that help against traps such as "the stick" and the good reflexes shtick?

[prj]

I have a couple of questions about the Safe Haven room.

• Is the Safe Haven immune from starting new battles every time someone enters it (and no players or monsters are present), or only when it is first discovered?
• After you discover the Safe Haven, can you go on to discover another new room on the same turn? The exploration rules on page 8 say no, but the Endgame example on page 28 says yes.

[apegamer]

Haley's Disarm trap shtick, is it aided by other bits that help against traps such as "the stick" and the good reflexes shtick?

If you find other bonuses that aid in Disarm then they'd add to the +4 bonus that Haley gets with Disarm Trap. Good Reflexes adds to the Evade, not the Disarm, and so wouldn't count.

[apegamer]

I have a couple of questions about the Safe Haven room.

• Is the Safe Haven immune from starting new battles every time someone enters it (and no players or monsters are present), or only when it is first discovered?
• After you discover the Safe Haven, can you go on to discover another new room on the same turn? The exploration rules on page 8 say no, but the Endgame example on page 28 says yes.

Battles are never triggered in the Safe Haven - no matter how many times you go back to rest.

The example on page 28 is incorrect. Your stop movement when you enter a new room.

[mcnathan80]

I have a silly rules question.... well two silly rules questions.
1. What happens when you use PPI on a monster, but there are no adjacent explored rooms (i.e. the first room on the first floor)?
2. Can you use "scream like a girl" on yourself in battle to assist yourself?