OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

All Roy had to do was... do nothing. Stay in the shadows. Keep hidden under some illusion. Be silent. Avoid all enemies.

Assuming you are correct and he could have done that it would have allowed him to ambush Xykon (like he currently plans to do).

Instead he chose to destroy Girard's Gate

To avoid having to defend it which was the reason he was there - he gave up.

...giving away his position first to Nale and immediately to Xykon as he arrived.

He had no idea that Xykon was going to show up then and their rather the two hours (or any other amount of time) later - and he didn't know if Nale would even survive the explosion (he didn't know if he would survive it himself).

I believe he was solving one problem at a time there, and the Gate was priority, Xykon to be thought of later.

This is fair - and is exactly what Serini seems to be doing.

That's right.

Huzzah.

[arimareiji]

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

The main thing I'm worried about is TE levelling up. Oona and MitD aren't aligned with Xykon, but the fact that both Xykon and Redcloak are actively gaining experience is troubling.

Serini might be banking on the whole 'Redcloak hits epic and fixes a gate' plan, but considering that she hasn't struck yet, the only other idea I can think of is 'super deadly trap once they figure out the trick', but that gets progressively less likely to work as her targets get more prepared, higher levelled, and with more magical gear.

If RC does go Epic, it might be more helpful than anything else in Serini's eyes. After all, the destruction of four gates has already put a pretty tight clock on the lifetime of the world, and fixing the gates will do a lot for that problem. A keen awareness of the fact that the world doesn't have long because of those destroyed gates probably doesn't do anything good for her attitude toward the protagonists.

I'm thinking that Serini's ideal plan is 'TE gets strong enough to fix all the gates, rules the world for a while, and then gets overthrown'. Still not a best-case scenario, but she might see it as better than defeating Xykon.

I don't think there's a lot of evidence for this hypothesis yet, but I'm glad for every person who's actively thinking about "Okay, these are all the things that are wrong... what are the possible directions the characters could take to set things right?"

Reason #10642 I gave up on Hollywood fare was that it focuses too much on the "ending" and that's that. I think it's led to creating a blind spot where it becomes easier to attribute "X will do Y because they're [simplistic motive]" and not think about "Okay, but if that happens what would X do after Y?"

And that's one of the things I love about RPG's. They stretch those muscles, getting you to think about "Okay, this is what I would do... but what would someone with ABC motivations do, and more importantly what would they hope to gain from it?"

That's right.

I don't know of any good way around consecutive quotes looking like that sometimes... the best I've ever come up with is to insert a handful of tildes between, but that adds a line.

[Ganbatte]

Assuming you are correct and he could have done that it would have allowed him to ambush Xykon (like he currently plans to do).
To avoid having to defend it which was the reason he was their - he gave up.
He had no idea that Xykon was going to show up then and their rather the two hours (or any other amount of time) later - and he didn't know if Nale would even survive the explosion (he didn't know if he would survive it himself).
This is fair - and is exactly what Serini seems to be doing.

Okay, no.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=994

Respond.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

[dancrilis]

Okay, no.
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I acknowledged in the post you responded to that he didn't know if he would survive the blast - but his core decision process seems to have been 'can't win, lets avoid trying to fight' which is what you accuse Serini of doing but she has so far done it without risking the planet.

[Ganbatte]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I acknowledged in the post you responded to that he didn't know if he would survive the blast - but his core decision process seems to have been 'can't win, lets avoid trying to fight' which is what you accuse Serini of doing but she has so far done it without risking the planet.

He... avoided trying to fight by causing a gigantic explosion and painting a target on his head.

Grade A logic.

And you still didn't answer clearly: did he or did he not make that choice facing danger and taking risks upon himself?

[Peelee]

I don't think there's a lot of evidence for this hypothesis yet, but I'm glad for every person who's actively thinking about "Okay, these are all the things that are wrong... what are the possible directions the characters could take to set things right?"

Reason #10642 I gave up on Hollywood fare was that it focuses too much on the "ending" and that's that. I think it's led to creating a blind spot where it becomes easier to attribute "X will do Y because they're [simplistic motive]" and not think about "Okay, but if that happens what would X do after Y?"

And that's one of the things I love about RPG's. They stretch those muscles, getting you to think about "Okay, this is what I would do... but what would someone with ABC motivations do, and more importantly what would they hope to gain from it?"


I don't know of any good way around consecutive quotes looking like that sometimes... the best I've ever come up with is to insert a handful of tildes between, but that adds a line.

[hr] [/hr], when used without formatting breaks, becomes this neat little line:

---

So it's potentially useful as:

quote 1

Text about quote 1

quote relevant to quote 1

---

quote 2

Not to say that I'm telling anyone to do it. Just noting that it's a useful possible convention available.

[dancrilis]

He... avoided trying to fight by causing a gigantic explosion and painting a target on his head.

He specifically tried to avoid the need to fight Xykon - and there is no indication that if Xykon had shown up a day later that Roy would have waited around, and as mentioned he could have hoped that the blast might take and Nale and company - nothing in his decision making process involved him wanting to bring a fight to himself it was about feeling they couldn't win one.

And you still didn't answer clearly: did he or did he not make that choice facing danger and taking risks upon himself?

Yes - just like Serini did when she moved to take out the paladins and presumedly with her current moves to take out the Order.

[arimareiji]

[hr] [/hr], when used without formatting breaks, becomes this neat little line:

---

So it's potentially useful [as a good section divider]

Thank you! (^_^)b

I hope I'll have call to use it soon. Useful thoughts such as "manually add hr's to get this as a divider"

---

, often view the inside of my skull similarly to how Blackwing viewed the tunnel Team Evil entered (last panel of 1223). They're not exactly going to wait for permission to leave. (^_~)

[Ganbatte]

He specifically tried to avoid the need to fight Xykon - and there is no indication that if Xykon had shown up a day later that Roy would have waited around, and as mentioned he could have hoped that the blast might take and Nale and company - nothing in his decision making process involved him wanting to bring a fight to himself it was about feeling they couldn't win one.

Good thing I never said he wanted to bring a fight to himself then!

Next.

Yes

Okay. So this was wrong. Good.

No he didn't.

I'm gonna stick to the facts here{Scrubbed}

[arimareiji]

I'm gonna stick to the facts here{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

A laudable sentiment. I wish you the best of luck in the endeavor, and I'll try to be conscious not to lead you away from this goal.

[dancrilis]

Okay. So this was wrong. Good.

Both are right, but it gets into review of risk assessment when all his choices were bad.

By destroying the Gate Roy chose to face danger even at the risk of his own safety

No he didn't.

And you still didn't answer clearly: did he or did he not make that choice facing danger and taking risks upon himself?

Yes

Roy choose to destroy the gate at risk to his own safety, he did so to avoid the danger that was Xykon - as such he didn't choose to face danger he choose to avoid it but the only way to do so was to engage in dangerous activity.

So both answers I gave were correct from a certain point of view, even if they may appear at odds with one another.

I think I will leave this topic here anyway but I will say that personally I feel that it would be fair to call Serini a dastard (taken to mean a person who acts treacherously or underhandedly) but as dastard is a synonym for coward I can see where the confusion lies but as coward has connatations beyound dastard I would not apply to her - and I would acknowledge that Roy can act in a dastardly fasion on occassion even if I don't believe he was doing so at Girard's gate.

[arimareiji]

Both are right, but it gets into review of risk assessment when all his choices were bad.

Absolutely not trying to drag you back into a bramble of thorns, I just thought you might also find this interesting:

Roy (and Eugene) are stunned. Despite Roy not only failing in his attempt to end Xykon, but also dying in the process, the heavens themselves have decreed that he earned his eternal reward despite the Blood Oath. That's one heck of a Get-Out-Of-Purgatory-Free card. Why?

Your son is "getting in" because he died of the process of attempting to fulfill that oath.
True, he could have gone about it more efficiently, but we don't penalize people for ineffectiveness.
He was doing what he thought was best, to the limit of his abilities—including his ability to judge what was best.

It may not be literal Word Of God on the subject, but I'd say it's close enough to count in horseshoes.

[KishouTheBadger]

I hope this context of Elan explaining why he blew up the gate might give Serini some hesitance. Then again, it might just be the perfect excuse for her to make use on memory wiping the team, or attempt at it.

The Order of the Stick has made great strides since their early days since Dorukan's Dungeon. They aren't idiots barely surviving encounters like with forest bandits, the Linear Guild or some random story boss anymore. Then again they still get their butts kicked like with Vamp!Durkon round 2. I do know one thing for sure; Rich knows how to tell a good story even when heroes struggle or make mistakes. Whatever happens, he'll deliver without a doubt.

[Goblin_Priest]

Serini allowing Team Evil to grind so much they just go to build new gates would be a solid plan to protect the world, if them getting hold of a gate didn't mean their ability to release the Snarl on a whim.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yes, Thog versus Xykon, round 1!

*SQUISH*

Well, that was quick. But don't worry, he has a triple-classed illusionist backing him up!

*SQUISH*

Let's be fair and let them teleport in the kid with the ear. Y'all in the front row got your giant plastic wrap? This one is gonna be messy...

I think you underestimate Thog. Though would fail a will save, but not go "squish" on a first round.

[Shadowknight12]

Serini allowing Team Evil to grind so much

Xykon's actual quote: "Some of those ugly bastards were strong enough that I actually gained experience! You know how rare that is at my level?"

This implies that Xykon gaining experience is actually extremely rare and that, as per his own assertion, only some of the monsters in the dungeon granted him an amount of XP.

And because the Monster In The Darkness is painting extra doors, he's depriving Xykon of encounters, so in effect, Xykon is earning less XP than he normally would if he was actually checking all the doors. Odds are very high that Serini is aware of this because a) she probably has been keeping an eye on things so she probably has seen the MITD painting extra doors, and/or b) she can probably do basic math and realize they haven't been to as many doors as the ones that are crossed off.

The assertion that "she's letting Team Evil grind so much" is completely ludicrous.

[arimareiji]

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

Xykon's actual quote: "Some of those ugly bastards were strong enough that I actually gained experience! You know how rare that is at my level?"

This implies that Xykon gaining experience is actually extremely rare and that, as per his own assertion, only some of the monsters in the dungeon granted him an amount of XP.

And because the Monster In The Darkness is painting extra doors, he's depriving Xykon of encounters, so in effect, Xykon is earning less XP than he normally would if he was actually checking all the doors. Odds are very high that Serini is aware of this because a) she probably has been keeping an eye on things so she probably has seen the MITD painting extra doors, and/or b) she can probably do basic math and realize they haven't been to as many doors as the ones that are crossed off.

The assertion that "she's letting Team Evil grind so much" is completely ludicrous.

Not to mention that between
~ She's deliberately strengthening Team Evil by letting them whup the most powerful epic monsters she could find, because she's evil and wants to make sure they can beat off the Order's ambush (but for some reason doesn't just do the obvious, namely "Telling Team Evil where the Order are, and/or how to get through the portals").
or
~ She's been unable to prevent Team Evil from whupping the most powerful epic monsters she could find. Which is why she desperately does not want the Order to jump out of a portal and expose the fact that the monsters are a shell game -- once the portals are exposed, she's already played all the cards she has and there's nothing to stop Team Evil.

...there's no difference, aside from whether you believe "She wants Team Evil to win" or "She wants Team Evil to lose".

[ziproot]

Not to mention that between
~ She's deliberately strengthening Team Evil by letting them whup the most powerful epic monsters she could find, because she's evil and wants to make sure they can beat off the Order's ambush (but for some reason doesn't just do the obvious, namely "Telling Team Evil where the Order are, and/or how to get through the portals").
or
~ She's been unable to prevent Team Evil from whupping the most powerful epic monsters she could find. Which is why she desperately does not want the Order to jump out of a portal and expose the fact that the monsters are a shell game -- once the portals are exposed, she's already played all the cards she has and there's nothing to stop Team Evil.

...there's no difference, aside from whether you believe "She wants Team Evil to win" or "She wants Team Evil to lose".

The problem is, even if Serini captures the Order, there will still be the scorch marks.

[arimareiji]

The problem is, even if Serini captures the Order, there will still be the scorch marks.

But if she captures them before they set off their ambush, any scorch marks (or signs for Greyview/Oona to track) will be on the other side of a portal Team Evil hasn't been alerted to.

Without question, one of Serini's key assumptions is factually wrong -- if Team Evil gets the gate, the gods will nuke the world as soon as the dwarves find a new table (and they can finish the vote, then revote, because "no backsies"). But she doesn't have any way to know that, shy of extended dialogue with the Order.

1) Whether or not she has good reason to believe the paladins and their "boss" can't be trusted not to "oopsie!" again, she does believe it.
2) As a rogue, she'd be a fool to throw away the element of surprise.
3) So the two most likely means for her to find out about the Godsmoot are a) she captures the Order without killing them, as she did with the paladins, or b) the Order gets ambushed by some weird sneaky invisible half-troll monster^*... and chooses to capture it to find out what it knows, instead of outright killing it.
_{* - Not trying to impugn their ethics, just judging them based on what they actually know (they deserve the same consideration as Serini).}

We just finished seeing that (rightly) the Order did no such thing with the frost giants. So it's a fair bet that for the story to move forward without tragedy, Serini captures the Order.

[ziproot]

But if she captures them before they set off their ambush, any scorch marks (or signs for Greyview/Oona to track) will be on the other side of a portal Team Evil hasn't been alerted to.

Without question, one of Serini's key assumptions is factually wrong -- if Team Evil gets the gate, the gods will nuke the world as soon as the dwarves find a new table (and they can finish the vote, then revote, because "no backsies"). But she doesn't have any way to know that, shy of extended dialogue with the Order.

1) Whether or not she has good reason to believe the paladins and their "boss" can't be trusted not to "oopsie!" again, she does believe it.
2) As a rogue, she'd be a fool to throw away the element of surprise.
3) So the two most likely means for her to find out about the Godsmoot are a) she captures the Order without killing them, as she did with the paladins, or b) the Order gets ambushed by some weird sneaky invisible half-troll monster^*... and chooses to capture it to find out what it knows, instead of outright killing it.
_{* - Not trying to impugn their ethics, just judging them based on what they actually know (they deserve the same consideration as Serini).}

We just finished seeing that (rightly) the Order did no such thing with the frost giants. So it's a fair bet that for the story to move forward without tragedy, Serini captures the Order.

Or the Order beats Serini and Serini uses her leverage of the Paladins being trapped in a teleport-only room. Also, we don't know that the Southern Gods have a "no backsies" rule and we have no idea how they voted. If push comes to shove, the Southern Gods may change their votes to "Yes" rendering the Northern Pantheon deadlock moot.

[arimareiji]

Or the Order beats Serini and Serini uses her leverage of the Paladins being trapped in a teleport-only room. Also, we don't know that the Southern Gods have a "no backsies" rule and we have no idea how they voted. If push comes to shove, the Southern Gods may change their votes to "Yes" rendering the Northern Pantheon deadlock moot.

Again, that depends on the Order not killing her outright. Or at least it does, unless at the last second before V disintegrates her, she manages to shout "Wait! Your friends will die unless you let me live, bwahahaha!".

Personally I think that between "nuanced stories" and "Snidely Whiplash", the Giant tends to lean far toward the former. But there's plenty of room for disagreement about that, in addition to whether my characterization is fair.

Wrt the Southern Pantheon, good point. Even if every god's vote was "No", I imagine that can change in a flash if they think it's become "Either them or us". I'm not sure from the wording of 1001 if "these little meetings" refers to the entire Godsmoot or the Northern Pantheon only, but not being sure means that "we don't know", as you said.

[Liquor Box]

Xykon's actual quote: "Some of those ugly bastards were strong enough that I actually gained experience! You know how rare that is at my level?"

This implies that Xykon gaining experience is actually extremely rare and that, as per his own assertion, only some of the monsters in the dungeon granted him an amount of XP.

And because the Monster In The Darkness is painting extra doors, he's depriving Xykon of encounters, so in effect, Xykon is earning less XP than he normally would if he was actually checking all the doors. Odds are very high that Serini is aware of this because a) she probably has been keeping an eye on things so she probably has seen the MITD painting extra doors, and/or b) she can probably do basic math and realize they haven't been to as many doors as the ones that are crossed off.

The assertion that "she's letting Team Evil grind so much" is completely ludicrous.

Xykon gaining experience is rare, and this is one of the few times he does get the opportunity to get stronger. For me that supports Goblin Priest's points that the odds are getting tougher the longer they let Xykon go on.

Not to mention that between
~ She's deliberately strengthening Team Evil by letting them whup the most powerful epic monsters she could find, because she's evil and wants to make sure they can beat off the Order's ambush (but for some reason doesn't just do the obvious, namely "Telling Team Evil where the Order are, and/or how to get through the portals").
or
~ She's been unable to prevent Team Evil from whupping the most powerful epic monsters she could find. Which is why she desperately does not want the Order to jump out of a portal and expose the fact that the monsters are a shell game -- once the portals are exposed, she's already played all the cards she has and there's nothing to stop Team Evil.

...there's no difference, aside from whether you believe "She wants Team Evil to win" or "She wants Team Evil to lose".

Sure there is. She want's team evil to lose but there's a choice to be made whether to attack now or later (she is expecting someone to topple him in a few years). That Xykon is getting stronger is relevant to the decision whether to attack now or later.

[Good Coyote]

Xykon gaining experience is rare, and this is one of the few times he does get the opportunity to get stronger. For me that supports Goblin Priest's points that the odds are getting tougher the longer they let Xykon go on.

Xykon only gets stronger if he actually levels up. Otherwise, being 100000000xp from level 29 or being 1xp away from level 29 are identical. He's exactly as strong as he was when he first leveled up to 28. (Or whatever level he currently is.)

The argument is that since gaining xp at level 28 (or whatever level) is so rare and later levels require such a high amount of xp, it's unlikely that a few monsters who just barely manage to give him xp will allow him to level up. Since it's rare to find the xp at all, he probably hasn't gathered the 9999999 other xp that he also needs in order to level up.

You could argue that he's still "Getting stronger" in the other ways that you can get better at a game, like learning to use your spells more effectively. But a monster giving him xp isn't evidence that he's able to do that here.

[KorvinStarmast]

It may not be literal Word Of God on the subject, but I'd say it's close enough to count in horseshoes.

Yeah.

I hope this context of Elan explaining why he blew up the gate might give Serini some hesitance.

I blew up the gate because I am an utter moron who hit the self destruct button for no valid reason ...

... explain again why this would make Serini hesitate? It might spur her on to ever greater efforts to keep the idiots away from The Last Gate.

[Liquor Box]

Xykon only gets stronger if he actually levels up. Otherwise, being 100000000xp from level 29 or being 1xp away from level 29 are identical. He's exactly as strong as he was when he first leveled up to 28. (Or whatever level he currently is.)

The argument is that since gaining xp at level 28 (or whatever level) is so rare and later levels require such a high amount of xp, it's unlikely that a few monsters who just barely manage to give him xp will allow him to level up. Since it's rare to find the xp at all, he probably hasn't gathered the 9999999 other xp that he also needs in order to level up.

You could argue that he's still "Getting stronger" in the other ways that you can get better at a game, like learning to use your spells more effectively. But a monster giving him xp isn't evidence that he's able to do that here.

Yeah, I appreciate that, but we don't know how far he was from his next level. Perhaps more accurate to say that they are risking him getting stronger.

Also, his allies are lower level, and if the monsters are tough enough for Xykon to get experience you'd think the likes of Redcloak and Oona would be getting pretty big experience.

[Good Coyote]

Yeah, I appreciate that, but we don't know how far he was from his next level. Perhaps more accurate to say that they are risking him getting stronger.

Also, his allies are lower level, and if the monsters are tough enough for Xykon to get experience you'd think the likes of Redcloak and Oona would be getting pretty big experience.

Yes, very good point about his allies. Actually one I'd be interested in hearing about from anyone who... is actually knowledgeable on 3.5, which I am not.

I know in 5e, experience is calculated by encounter level versus party level, which would mean that having a super soaker like Xykon in the party makes it more difficult for anyone in his party to ever get experience either. But they would get some if he managed to, and they need less xp total in order to get their next levels.

3.5 probably does it completely differently though. Would be really cool to see some nerd's informed analysis.


Actually, this reminds me, did Redcloak get xp from running Durkon and Minrah off? Was that a defeat like the chimera?

[Liquor Box]

Yes, very good point about his allies. Actually one I'd be interested in hearing about from anyone who... is actually knowledgeable on 3.5, which I am not.

I know in 5e, experience is calculated by encounter level versus party level, which would mean that having a super soaker like Xykon in the party makes it more difficult for anyone in his party to ever get experience either. But they would get some if he managed to, and they need less xp total in order to get their next levels.

3.5 probably does it completely differently though. Would be really cool to see some nerd's informed analysis.


Actually, this reminds me, did Redcloak get xp from running Durkon and Minrah off? Was that a defeat like the chimera?

There will be people who know 3.5 better than me, but my recollection is that you gain xp more quickly if you are lower level than your average party level and therefore fighting monsters who are stronger than you otherwise would - probably a design choice because they want differently levelled parties to close the gap.

Also, I think the Durkon encounter would come down to the DM making a decision about whether Redcloak had prevailed against a challenge. I think he'd get experience, but it's not certain.

[arimareiji]

Spoiler: collapsed for space, re: experience point calculations

Show

Yes, very good point about his allies. Actually one I'd be interested in hearing about from anyone who... is actually knowledgeable on 3.5, which I am not.

I know in 5e, experience is calculated by encounter level versus party level, which would mean that having a super soaker like Xykon in the party makes it more difficult for anyone in his party to ever get experience either. But they would get some if he managed to, and they need less xp total in order to get their next levels.

3.5 probably does it completely differently though. Would be really cool to see some nerd's informed analysis.

Too bad it's not like powerleveling on the old MUDs... party up with your 40th level friend, stay in the back and don't get kilt, and before you know it you've gone from 1st to 20th. (^_~)

Actually, this reminds me, did Redcloak get xp from running Durkon and Minrah off? Was that a defeat like the chimera?

(Not a rules lawyer to know whether this is accurate, let alone the precise mechanics or numbers.)

I'd think full roleplay xp, but not much for the defeat -- they didn't start running until Oona and Greyview showed up, not to mention Durkon dropped a couple of levels and Minrah wasn't all that high to begin with.

[Peelee]

Also, I think the Durkon encounter would come down to the DM making a decision about whether Redcloak had prevailed against a challenge. I think he'd get experience, but it's not certain.

I'd say both goblinoids and dwarves would have gotten XP there, but that's just the kind of DM I am.

[Good Coyote]

I'd think full roleplay xp, but not much for the defeat -- they didn't start running until Oona and Greyview showed up, not to mention Durkon dropped a couple of levels and Minrah wasn't all that high to begin with.

Hmm. The existence of roleplay xp changes the entire game to me.

Like... should you actively avoid having meaningful conversations with Evil people?

Hold up, did Haley mess up ethically by allowing Crystal to become her personal nemesis? Every time she got stronger, she made an evil person stronger who she knew was actively running around hurting people in her hometown.

Obviously... she was a teenager at the time, so it's at worst "oh no I was careless when I was young and it ended up hurting people."

Really interesting consequence of the mechanics as written.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, very good point about his allies. Actually one I'd be interested in hearing about from anyone who... is actually knowledgeable on 3.5, which I am not.

I know in 5e, experience is calculated by encounter level versus party level, which would mean that having a super soaker like Xykon in the party makes it more difficult for anyone in his party to ever get experience either. But they would get some if he managed to, and they need less xp total in order to get their next levels.

3.5 probably does it completely differently though. Would be really cool to see some nerd's informed analysis.


Actually, this reminds me, did Redcloak get xp from running Durkon and Minrah off? Was that a defeat like the chimera?

How much XP gets and from what depends on how Rich calculates Xykon's ECL and what it is.

For example, Malack was presumably a Vampire Yuan-Ti Abomination Cleric 11~12; this would make him have a ridiculously high ECL that makes the Scribblers look like rank amateurs(I think ECL 19 or so before class levels). By CR, though, that'd be CR 16~17 or so, which is in the ballpark for what I assume the Legion to be around. I don't think Malack would have gained any levels whatsoever ever since becoming a vampire if Rich had strictly stuck to the ECL rules, which are stupid and frankly seem to primarily be a way of screwing over monstrous PCs.

Xykon is a lich, which is a +4 LA template but "only" +2 CR. We don't know his level, but he's at least level 21 and some calculations put him at 26th level or higher. This puts the lower end of what Xykon's ECL might be treated as at 23 and the highish end at 30+. As you don't usually get XP from monsters 7 or more CR lower than your ECL, this means the dungeon's strongest monsters are at minimum CR 16 and may very well be Solar-tier or higher(CR 23+).