The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[Aedilred]

It is not clear where on the map between Middle-Earth and Valinor the boat was when she got off it. It was clearly a point of no return, of some description, but that could be anywhere. It could be off the shore of Valinor or just over the horizon from Numenor, or just a designated pick-up point a fairly short way off the shore where Mandos takes a look at you and decides whether he's going to let you proceed (the way it's depicted, this last is in some ways perhaps the most likely).

I think Galadriel swimming a distance of 20-30 miles is plausible, maybe even a bit further, taking into account what human swimmers IRL can do. From what I see above, she was further out than that.

My first reaction to the scene was, indeed, "wait, is her plan just to swim all the way back? That seems drastic." But taking into account the uncertainty above it's less silly than it might initially appear. With that said it still seems a bit silly.

I haven't seen episode 3 yet but Galadriel didn't swim back to Middle-Earth from Valinor in any case, because she encountered first a raft and then a ship which picked her up at the end of episode 2.

It would be a pretty consequential canon violation. Specifically, the whole reason for the First Kinslaying is that the Noldor couldn't get from Valinor to Middle Earth without stealing ships from the Teleri. The alternative is the brutal crossing of the Helcaraxe - basically the arctic ice cap - which is how Galadriel got to Middle Earth the first time. Of course, that's the other problem with her jumping off the boat. There's absolutely no reason that she couldn't enter Valinor and then leave by marching across the Helcaraxe again. The Valar have no power to bar anyone from leaving Valinor and have canonically let suitably heroic souls - Glorfindel - go back to fight evil again.

Given how bad the crossing of the Helcarxe was the first time round (and given that it would probably be even further this time, since Beleriand has been drowned) I wouldn't blame her for choosing to swim instead, to be honest.

I'm not sure that the people writing this have any idea what any of those words even mean, and keeping that in mind I would rather she just swam back and we got to skip the entire subplot.

I think that's unduly cynical. There have clearly been some executive decisions made regarding what is incorporated in this show from Tolkien's original works and we may not agree with all (or any) of them. But I also think it's clear from what we've seen that there are people involved in the writing of this who have read and do care about the source material, even if the production has subsequently departed from it.

[Divayth Fyr]

Are .. are they saying Galadriel swam all the way from Valinor back to Middle-Earth? Really?

That seems to have been her plan anyway.

Episode 3

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So is Galadriel a part of some prophecy describing the downfall of Numenor now? And did anyone else find the riding scene ridiculous? Or the way Galadriel behaved in Numenor in general? I'm sure being as unpleasant and abrasive as possible in a place you consider as hating your kind is a wise choice.

The symbol is a map? For whom? I doubt orcs and other such servants of evil would have a map of Middle-Earth handy to compare it to... And why brand it on the corpse of defeated foe, likely to be recovered by his side?

[warty goblin]

The jumping off and swimming is, I think, the bit of the show that works least well for me so far. Quite apart from cosmology questions or elven freestyle endurance swimming, it felt like the writers not knowing what to do with Galadriel, so here's some go-nowhere drama to keep her busy for a couple episodes. The ersatz Hobbit plot is going somewhere and has a mystery, things are happening in the dirt farmer/elf warden plot (which also got excellently creepy), and there's Galadriel still paddling around with sea serpents.

I get that her rejecting Valinor is a big character moment, and the elf rapture was very nicely shot. Both of these are worth including in some form. But they could have had that, and had Galadriel out actually hunting some orc or whatever, and still gotten the same effect. Just use the Magic of Editing to intercut Galadriel doing unpleasant dangerous stuff with elves going to elf heaven, and it works.

Admittedly, this is a level of editing that has definitely exceeded the reach of the show so far. Ah well.

[ecarden]

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So is Galadriel a part of some prophecy describing the downfall of Numenor now? And did anyone else find the riding scene ridiculous? Or the way Galadriel behaved in Numenor in general? I'm sure being as unpleasant and abrasive as possible in a place you consider as hating your kind is a wise choice.

I'll say between this and jumping out of the boat, she's reading to me as somewhat suicidal, though I'm not sure if that's intentional or not. I'm a bit grumpy about the absence of Durin/Elrond in this episode as I continue to think that's the most interesting, but the Southlands thread gets significantly better here, though I do wish they'd decide how superhuman the elves are.

[Divayth Fyr]

I'll say between this and jumping out of the boat, she's reading to me as somewhat suicidal, though I'm not sure if that's intentional or not. I'm a bit grumpy about the absence of Durin/Elrond in this episode as I continue to think that's the most interesting, but the Southlands thread gets significantly better here, though I do wish they'd decide how superhuman the elves are.

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Maybe her idea is that going into the Halls of Mandos means she'd enter Valinor on her own terms? :D

And Elves are as superhuman as the plot needs at the specific moment.

[warty goblin]

Elves are not uniformly superhuman, some elves are more powerful than others. Some humans are also more powerful than others. This is true in like all Tolkien's work, Bob the Soldier isn't going to flip out and suddenly turn into Hurin, hewing off orc hands until the weight of them all drags him down.

Galadriel is tougher than rando soldier elf, a point I feel the show pretty well established by pointing out that she's super old, has been fighting a super long time, and is somebody that every other important person takes seriously. We don't fully know how much tougher a rando soldier elf is than a rando soldier human, because it's not generally relevant, and also stopping the show for a ten minute lecture on comparative physiology is probably not a good editorial decision.

This seems a very odd thing to nitpick in a fantasy story, varying power levels is true in approximate all of them. Harry isn't an orphanage away from Voldemort levels of power, Aragorn being more badass than Boromir or Eomer confused nobody, and Iron Man can't do Scarlet Witch stuff.

[Aedilred]

I think the purpose in the whole boat business with Galadriel is pretty clear from a plot perspective:

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It's to give her a way to get to Númenor, meet Halbrand (and Elendil) and set the whole Númenorean plot in motion

That couldn't be done with having her continue to run around Middle-Earth doing whatever.

Was this a rather clunky way to do it? Undoubtedly. But if A needs to get to B and the AB plot is basically the main plot of the series (as it looks and looked from the trailers as though it might be), and the alternative way of getting A to B is twice as long and is still going to feel a bit forced, then it's probably better to bite that bullet early even if it strains credibility a little. Not saying it couldn't have been done better, but I can probably live with it provided it doesn't, y'know, keep happening.

[Clertar]

I'll say between this and jumping out of the boat, she's reading to me as somewhat suicidal, though I'm not sure if that's intentional or not. I'm a bit grumpy about the absence of Durin/Elrond in this episode as I continue to think that's the most interesting, but the Southlands thread gets significantly better here, though I do wish they'd decide how superhuman the elves are.

That was my take. Galadriel is not ready to return home, and she would rather try to make it back to Middle Earth by swimming, or die in the attempt and perish outside of Valinor, like she said to Elrond that she always envisioned for herself. That she'd rather try, fail and die that give up.

But also, having an elven character whose motives and thoughts are not readily available for us to grasp and get behind does not seem to me a bad thing.

[ecarden]

Double Post, sorry.

[ecarden]

Elves are not uniformly superhuman, some elves are more powerful than others. Some humans are also more powerful than others. This is true in like all Tolkien's work, Bob the Soldier isn't going to flip out and suddenly turn into Hurin, hewing off orc hands until the weight of them all drags him down.

Galadriel is tougher than rando soldier elf, a point I feel the show pretty well established by pointing out that she's super old, has been fighting a super long time, and is somebody that every other important person takes seriously. We don't fully know how much tougher a rando soldier elf is than a rando soldier human, because it's not generally relevant, and also stopping the show for a ten minute lecture on comparative physiology is probably not a good editorial decision.

This seems a very odd thing to nitpick in a fantasy story, varying power levels is true in approximate all of them. Harry isn't an orphanage away from Voldemort levels of power, Aragorn being more badass than Boromir or Eomer confused nobody, and Iron Man can't do Scarlet Witch stuff.

Sure, but the key point here is the elves in the southlands, who are all trained soldiers with (as far as I can tell) relatively similar levels of experience/training, but wildly different levels of power.

I think the purpose in the whole boat business with Galadriel is pretty clear from a plot perspective:

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It's to give her a way to get to Númenor, meet Halbrand (and Elendil) and set the whole Númenorean plot in motion

That couldn't be done with having her continue to run around Middle-Earth doing whatever.

Was this a rather clunky way to do it? Undoubtedly. But if A needs to get to B and the AB plot is basically the main plot of the series (as it looks and looked from the trailers as though it might be), and the alternative way of getting A to B is twice as long and is still going to feel a bit forced, then it's probably better to bite that bullet early even if it strains credibility a little. Not saying it couldn't have been done better, but I can probably live with it provided it doesn't, y'know, keep happening.

Yeah, it doesn't bother me that much, though I will say I would have preferred something more like

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Instead of being off in the wastelands, nowhere near the action, Galadriel and company are near the Southlands, they uncover this threat, but Gil-Galed cannot provide support, as his forces are tied up elsewhere (choose your reason). So, she hunts down Halbrand as part of a deliberate attempt to reunify the Southlands against the Orcs, rather than simply stumbling over him and either goes, or sends someone else to Numenor seeking support for her war.

You get the same movements, but she's actually got some agency, rather than being tossed around by fate.

[Tyndmyr]

That was my take. Galadriel is not ready to return home, and she would rather try to make it back to Middle Earth by swimming, or die in the attempt and perish outside of Valinor, like she said to Elrond that she always envisioned for herself. That she'd rather try, fail and die that give up.

That whole sequence made her appear indecisive and, well, not smart. She was clearly conflicted about going to Valinor since before she left, but rather then decisively choose, she procrastinated until the last minute and then...decided to swim across the sea. I have no objection to the standard trope of the warrior choosing to fight even when told to drop it, but by dragging this moment out, it lost its weight.

Especially as we, the audience, are not in doubt that the main character will choose to do the story we have come to see. We would hardly be watching her if she chose to tap out and never return.

The basic idea isn't really unusual for this kind of work, but the way in which it is executed is a bit messy.

[Dragonus45]

I think that's unduly cynical. There have clearly been some executive decisions made regarding what is incorporated in this show from Tolkien's original works and we may not agree with all (or any) of them. But I also think it's clear from what we've seen that there are people involved in the writing of this who have read and do care about the source material, even if the production has subsequently departed from it.

Your right, they probably did have an idea what they were doing and just decided to make Elrond teach Celebrimbor about dwarves anyways. This is due much more cynicism.

[factotum]

I don't recall whether those hazards were removed in the second age.

The Numenoreans certainly got past them if so, although I won't go further than that because you haven't got to the Akallabeth in your Silmarillion read-through.

[EDIT] Seen episode 3 and I have to say that Galadriel is easily the most poorly written and inconsistent character in the entire show. Her motivations and actions change from moment to moment, it's as if she was written by 37 different people who couldn't agree what she should be like. The Harfoot and Arondir plotlines are far more interesting, and I guess we're about to see Sauron in his Annatar Lord of Gifts form.

Also, from a canon busting point of view:

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Wasn't Miriel an elf-friend herself? And AFAIK she was never a regnant queen, merely a queen consort to Ar-Pharazon.

[TheSummoner]

There's a lot wrong with episode 3, but I think the main thing worth highlighting is just how slow the pacing is. We're now 3 hours in. By this point, the hobbits have left the Shire, the Fellowship has been formed and split, Gandalf has 1v1'd a Balrog and seemingly died and Boromir has actually died. Now think of how little has actually progressed here.

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Well, Galadriel spends some time at sea, meets Halbrandt while there, ends up in Numenor and figures out that Sauron is gathering an army in the southlands. Elrond visits Durin, breaks some rocks, and has dinner. The hobbits find a caveman wizard, start a migration, and are abandoned. Arondir finds signs of orcs, investigates, gets captures, tries and fails to escape.

Maybe that's unfair, comparing a movie with a much more limited run time to a TV show, so let's compare to Game of Thrones as well. Robert Baratheon visits Winterfell, asks Ned to serve as Hand of the King, and they travel to King's Landing. The Stark children recieve their direwolves, Sansa and Arya lose theirs, and Arya begins her sword training. We learn that Jon Arryn has died, Lysa Arryn writes to Catelyn accusing the Lannisters of foul play, and Ned begins to investigate. Bran uncovers Cersei and Jamie's incest and is thrown from a window, wakes up from his coma and survives an assassination attempt, and Littlefinger plants the idea that Tyrion is involved in the attempt due to the dagger that was used. Daenerys is married off to Drogo, falls for him despite not having a say in the marriage, becomes pregnant, and begins to stand up to Viserys. Jon Snow joins the night's watch and arrives at the wall.

Part of the problem is probably that the main plot threads in GoT start together and then split off whereas in RoP they're completely independent and the only two that have had any interaction are Galadriel's and Elrond's, but an even bigger issue is just how much could be cut entirely without any significant effect on what comes next.

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For example, the rock smashing was entirely filler and Elrond could've skipped to dinner if he had just apologized for missing the wedding from the start. Arondir's plot this episode goes full circle and he ends up pretty much exactly where he started.

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So is Galadriel a part of some prophecy describing the downfall of Numenor now? And did anyone else find the riding scene ridiculous? Or the way Galadriel behaved in Numenor in general? I'm sure being as unpleasant and abrasive as possible in a place you consider as hating your kind is a wise choice.

The symbol is a map? For whom? I doubt orcs and other such servants of evil would have a map of Middle-Earth handy to compare it to... And why brand it on the corpse of defeated foe, likely to be recovered by his side?

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Keep in mind that this symbol/map is something that he's been using for centuries. She figures it out and realizes that the southlands are in danger. Just how long does Sauron need to gather strength in the southlands before acting? If he hasn't made his move in hundreds of years, why is it suddenly urgent now?

Sure, but the key point here is the elves in the southlands, who are all trained soldiers with (as far as I can tell) relatively similar levels of experience/training, but wildly different levels of power.

So were the elves with Gladriel in the first episode and they got thrown around by random troll. They were supposed to be the elite hunting down Sauron, so I do wonder what would've happened if they had actually found him.

[Xihirli]

When has Galadriel stopped trying to go after Sauron? What have her other motivations been?

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Perhaps she will become an elf-friend during the events of the show.

[warty goblin]

I liked this episode pretty well. Numenor was a real triumph of art design, definitely grander and distinct from Gondor, but with a lot of elements that show up in Gondor. It's believable that one came from the other, and I like it.

Horse riding was overdone. It was also like 120 spurious seconds, so whatever.

The ersatz Hobbits continue to be interesting. Getting an indication of the darker side of their lifestyle was good, you can definitely see the playful innocent hobbits of later days in there, but masked by their harsher reality.

Arondir's plotline didn't go anywhere this episode, but I think a lot could happen there next episode. No complaints here.

[TheSummoner]

When has Galadriel stopped trying to go after Sauron? What have her other motivations been?

If this is in response to my question about why it would be urgent now, I meant from the audience's perspective. I could've worded it more clearly. Galadriel's gonna Galadriel either way.

The ersatz Hobbits continue to be interesting. Getting an indication of the darker side of their lifestyle was good, you can definitely see the playful innocent hobbits of later days in there, but masked by their harsher reality.

I had pretty much the opposite reaction. There's a lot that can be criticized, but that was the part that actually crossed into being frustrating. There shouldn't even be a darker side. Tolkien's hobbits are an idealized version of the people who live in the English countryside. They live simple, uneventful lives and they enjoy it that way. They're plain, quiet folk and adventures make one late for dinner. Bilbo, Frodo and the others were exceptions and not particularly willing ones, at least initially. And even if you divorced the show entirely from Tolkien and viewed it as if it was a completely original fantasy series, the darker side shown makes absolutely no sense.

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Anyone who falls behind gets abandoned and left to die? For what possible reason? They aren't being pursued and aren't on a timer where delay means death. The ones left behind aren't beyond saving. What reason besides pure selfishness do they have to not help the other members of their... tribe? I'm going to go with tribe. The connotation feels a bit too primitive, but I can't think of a better word. The (creatures who resemble but are legally distinct from) hobbits are a small, insular, nomadic group that is shown to avoid contact with outsiders. They wouldn't survive if they didn't cooperate and help each other. And then they top it off by laughing about the way one of them died. "Ha ha, we loved him, but he was an idiot. He's dead now, isn't that hilarious?"

Are these hobbits or are they some sort of gremlin? I was under the impression these characters were supposed to be sympathetic and relatable. The main ones aren't the problem, but the tribe as a whole? They're jerks who would abandon their own to die for no conceivable reason and then make jokes about it. If it was just punishing Nori for bringing the wizard (I'm going to call him Cavemandalf until he gets a proper name) back and in theory, endangering the tribe as a whole, I could get that. Based on their lifestyle, it would make sense if they saw it as something she deserved. Instead though, they're just going to put her injured father who had nothing to do with it in a position where he's likely to be left behind and then abandoned to die.

And the thing is, I tend to prefer more shades of gray and darker undertones than the pure black and white good and evil sort of story Tolkien wrote, but for it to work it needs to make some sort of logical sense. It's just forced drama for the sake of artificially creating a conflict.

It's not the only case, but it really gives me the impression that the people writing this just come up with what they think would make for a cool scene or necessary plot point and write in whatever they have to to get to there with no concern for whether it makes sense or not. The whole "Galadriel jumps into the ocean with the apparent intent to swim across" discussion is another case of that - She needs to get to Numenor and she needs to meet Halbrandt to progress the story so she does something insanely stupid (she acknowledges herself that if they weren't rescued, it would've been certain death) so she can meet him on a convenient raft and then they can be rescued by a Numenorean ship.

[factotum]

When has Galadriel stopped trying to go after Sauron? What have her other motivations been?

If that's her sole and only objective, how does attempting to swim across an ocean that she can't possibly cross help toward that? How does deliberately antagonising the Queen of Numenor help toward that? I suppose you could just say she's incredibly arrogant, or incredibly stupid, or possibly both...

[Clertar]

If that's her sole and only objective, how does attempting to swim across an ocean that she can't possibly cross help toward that? How does deliberately antagonising the Queen of Numenor help toward that? I suppose you could just say she's incredibly arrogant, or incredibly stupid, or possibly both...

Oh no, a flawed character

[Clertar]

I had pretty much the opposite reaction. There's a lot that can be criticized, but that was the part that actually crossed into being frustrating. There shouldn't even be a darker side. Tolkien's hobbits are an idealized version of the people who live in the English countryside. They live simple, uneventful lives and they enjoy it that way. They're plain, quiet folk and adventures make one late for dinner. Bilbo, Frodo and the others were exceptions and not particularly willing ones, at least initially. And even if you divorced the show entirely from Tolkien and viewed it as if it was a completely original fantasy series, the darker side shown makes absolutely no sense.

From Concerning Hobbits:

“Nonetheless, ease and peace had left this people still curiously tough. They were, if it came to it, difficult to daunt or to kill; and they were, perhaps, so unwearyingly fond of good things not least because they could, when put to it, do without them, and could survive rough handling by grief, foe, or weather in a way that astonished those who did not know them well and looked no further than their bellies and their well-fed faces. Though slow to quarrel, and for sport killing nothing that lived, they were doughty at bay, and at need could still handle arms.”

This is in Tolkien’s description of “modern” Shire hobbits, when the Harfoots and the other clans had migrated West and merged into Third Age hobbits.

Harfoots and other proto-hobbits, in a primitive hunter-gatherer semi-nomadic lifestyle, would necessarily have had to rough it up a lot more than their descendants thousands of years in the future. It checks out.

[diplomancer]

Oh no, a flawed character

A case could be made that Galadriel, at some point of her life, was arrogant (though another case could be made that whatever arrogance she had, Melian taught it out of her during her lengthy stay in Doriath). No case can be made that she was ever stupid. And jumping in the middle of the ocean and then threatening her captors in the middle of their city is very stupid.

The horse-riding scene was so awkward that I skipped it. I basically never do that when watching or reading something.

[Mechalich]

Harfoots and other proto-hobbits, in a primitive hunter-gatherer semi-nomadic lifestyle, would necessarily have had to rough it up a lot more than their descendants thousands of years in the future. It checks out.

The Harfoots, as shown in this show are far more advanced than primitive hunter-gatherers. They are wearing woven cloth, they have tooled wagons made using milled lumber, and they possess numerous metal tools. They do not appear to be significantly technologically behind the humans who they are hiding among. They are an itinerant society, though unlike the real world analogues they do not appear to survive by trading and seasonal labor but rather through foraging-supplemented-scavenging, which is possible assuming sufficiently low numbers.

[Divayth Fyr]

The Harfoots, as shown in this show are far more advanced than primitive hunter-gatherers. They are wearing woven cloth, they have tooled wagons made using milled lumber, and they possess numerous metal tools. They do not appear to be significantly technologically behind the humans who they are hiding among. They are an itinerant society, though unlike the real world analogues they do not appear to survive by trading and seasonal labor but rather through foraging-supplemented-scavenging, which is possible assuming sufficiently low numbers.

There is also the big book of knowledge, and how Nori (a very young Harfoot) is supposedly able to read. Which is a skill many Shire-settled Hobbits explicitely never learned (and it seems it may have been more of a thing among the upper class, with the common folk less literate).

[TheSummoner]

From Concerning Hobbits:

“Nonetheless, ease and peace had left this people still curiously tough. They were, if it came to it, difficult to daunt or to kill; and they were, perhaps, so unwearyingly fond of good things not least because they could, when put to it, do without them, and could survive rough handling by grief, foe, or weather in a way that astonished those who did not know them well and looked no further than their bellies and their well-fed faces. Though slow to quarrel, and for sport killing nothing that lived, they were doughty at bay, and at need could still handle arms.”

This is in Tolkien’s description of “modern” Shire hobbits, when the Harfoots and the other clans had migrated West and merged into Third Age hobbits.

Harfoots and other proto-hobbits, in a primitive hunter-gatherer semi-nomadic lifestyle, would necessarily have had to rough it up a lot more than their descendants thousands of years in the future. It checks out.

It absolutely does not.

Hobbits are individually more hardy than they appear. I think that's a fair summary of Tolkien's description. They, as a species, would not survive behaving the way episode 3 shows them behaving. They are a small, insular tribe and if they didn't cooperate and help each other, they'd be wiped out. I'd go as far to say that even applies the "modern" hobbits from the third age. What happens if a crop fails? They need to be able to trust each other and count on each other in that sort of situation. I help by neighbor when he needs it because I want my neighbor to help me when I need it.

And even if you still want to argue that I'm wrong and that isn't the case, it doesn't change the fact that it's entirely pointless "darkness" for the sake of artificial drama. What reasoning is there? Besides pure selfishness, what do the hobbits as a tribe gain from

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abandoning anyone who falls behind to die? "Sorry grandpa, you're old and slow now, you don't get to live anymore. Oh, Lilly, are those young children slowing you down? Guess you die too and they die with you." It's absolutely moronic.

[Sapphire Guard]

Elves are not uniformly superhuman, some elves are more powerful than others. Some humans are also more powerful than others. This is true in like all Tolkien's work, Bob the Soldier isn't going to flip out and suddenly turn into Hurin, hewing off orc hands until the weight of them all drags him down.

I don't think this is true, the idea that Higher Rank=more HP is something that video games and D&D gave us later. Numenorians have elvish blood that degrades over time, and that's where Gondorian advantages come from. Otherwise, Sting can do more damage to a troll in Moria than Boromir's sword because it's enchanted against creatures of Morgoth, not because Frodo is higher level or has a higher strength stat. He survives that spear thrust because of his mithril coat (but still gets hurt), not because of higher HP.

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There could be good reasons for leaving someone behind, but there aren't any in this situation. They have plenty of spare people available that could help pull an extra cart, but they just choose not to for no apparent reason.

Galadriel is caught between two characterisations, they want her to be brash and young but also ancient and experienced. They gave her the most generic plot they possibly could.

[diplomancer]

I've been able to put my finger on what has been bothering me. The Elves don't feel Elvish. This is shown by the scene in Númenor where Galadriel tries to "sneak" by concealing her ears... Yes, they are great acrobats, but they don't give out any semblance of countless years of wisdom. This is magnified by Galadriel, of course, who is simply not Galadriel at all, just some elf chick that was given the name for purposes of name recognition. I'm almost expecting a big reveal where the true Galadriel is off doing something actually relevant...
.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheSummoner
"Sorry grandpa, you're old and slow now, you don't get to live anymore.”

This is exactly what happens with many real-world tribal and nomadic societies. It’s well-documented that elderly members in some of these societies are either abandoned or deliberately separate themselves at the end of their lives, with the understanding on all sides that they won’t survive.

As for small children, it’s also well-known that hunter-gatherers have longer interbirth intervals than settled agriculturalists, because it’s energetically too expensive for a mother to carry a nursing infant as well as a toddler, or to attempt nursing two infants simultaneously. In a mobile group, anyone who can’t keep up is left behind, and depending on the circumstances infants and toddlers may be left behind.

For more on these behaviors in traditional societies, see Jared Diamond’s The World Until Yesterday, pp. 177-180 and 214-217.

[Clertar]

The Harfoots, as shown in this show are far more advanced than primitive hunter-gatherers. They are wearing woven cloth, they have tooled wagons made using milled lumber, and they possess numerous metal tools. They do not appear to be significantly technologically behind the humans who they are hiding among. They are an itinerant society, though unlike the real world analogues they do not appear to survive by trading and seasonal labor but rather through foraging-supplemented-scavenging, which is possible assuming sufficiently low numbers.

I would say that is less so that you seem to believe. If I may briefly go off on this tangent, I find it interesting and I think it's one of the positive elements of depicting the Second Age "hobbits" as an indigenous Middle Earth group that was ignored or bypassed by the bigger, warring civilizations through the centuries and millennia. My main point would be that what the internet has been calling a "darker" side is not really so dark, only when viewed from our present-day perspective.

I described the Harfoots as hunter-gatherers because this is what they appear to be, they forage or hunt or whatnot in order to acquire their food. In any case, I think that it's save to assume that thet do not have an agricultural society; we have yet to see signs of it and, even with some sort of slash-and-burn agriculture, the impact would be too big for them to remain hidden near well-tended orchards or fields. As for weaving cloth, this is not at all incompatible with being a largely hunter-gatherer (semi)nomadic society; many Amazonian peoples grow and weave cotton, e.g. to make hammocks. The reason they don't wear clothes is more climactic than an incapability to make them, but even so the Ashaninka in the Peruvian Amazon wear their famous tunics. In non-tropical areas, hunter-gatherers do wear clothes (but alas, cotton does not grow in the Arctic).

I hope that we can at least agree that the Harfoots as depicted in the TV series are a non-agricultural society that lead a seminomadic lifestyle. In this sense, abandoning to their fate the weaker members of their society is very consistent with the practices of a seminomadic, non-agricultural foraging society. (Heck, even for 21st century societies; who here has not seen fellow members of our society having to sleep outside in the cold?) This is attested in dozens of real-world societies that live in conditions similar to the Harfoots: for example, the Inuit would abandon their elderly to die in the ice, and the Pirahã as described by Daniel Everett would do the same with babies born with some physical disadvantage. What we are shown is not that the Harfoots are "dark" or "mean" as an arbitrary cultural trait, but rather that their conditions are harsh, and that they survive by doing what is necessary to prevent their precarious living conditions from degrading beyond survival.

[Divayth Fyr]

Heck, even for 21st century societies; who here has not seen fellow members of our society having to sleep outside in the cold?

Most of our societies - for better or worse - don't really pretend "nobody is left alone" is central to their identity, unlike the Harfoots.

This is attested in dozens of real-world societies that live in conditions similar to the Harfoots: for example, the Inuit would abandon their elderly to die in the ice, and the Pirahã as described by Daniel Everett would do the same with babies born with some physical disadvantage. What we are shown is not that the Harfoots are "dark" or "mean" as an arbitrary cultural trait, but rather that their conditions are harsh, and that they survive by doing what is necessary to prevent their precarious living conditions from degrading beyond survival.

True. But we're shown they abandon anyone unable to keep up at the moment. A hurt ankle might prevent you from pulling your cart fast enough to keep up with the caravan, but unless you literally can't risk a single moment of delay, get attacked or don't have the means to feed you population, that isn't necessary. Even moreso when we see plenty of people who could help, but won't. Guess this could become another death to laugh at next year...

[pendell]

I would say that is less so that you seem to believe. If I may briefly go off on this tangent, I find it interesting and I think it's one of the positive elements of depicting the Second Age "hobbits" as an indigenous Middle Earth group that was ignored or bypassed by the bigger, warring civilizations through the centuries and millennia. My main point would be that what the internet has been calling a "darker" side is not really so dark, only when viewed from our present-day perspective.

I described the Harfoots as hunter-gatherers because this is what they appear to be, they forage or hunt or whatnot in order to acquire their food. In any case, I think that it's save to assume that thet do not have an agricultural society; we have yet to see signs of it and, even with some sort of slash-and-burn agriculture, the impact would be too big for them to remain hidden near well-tended orchards or fields. As for weaving cloth, this is not at all incompatible with being a largely hunter-gatherer (semi)nomadic society; many Amazonian peoples grow and weave cotton, e.g. to make hammocks. The reason they don't wear clothes is more climactic than an incapability to make them, but even so the Ashaninka in the Peruvian Amazon wear their famous tunics. In non-tropical areas, hunter-gatherers do wear clothes (but alas, cotton does not grow in the Arctic).

I hope that we can at least agree that the Harfoots as depicted in the TV series are a non-agricultural society that lead a seminomadic lifestyle. In this sense, abandoning to their fate the weaker members of their society is very consistent with the practices of a seminomadic, non-agricultural foraging society. (Heck, even for 21st century societies; who here has not seen fellow members of our society having to sleep outside in the cold?) This is attested in dozens of real-world societies that live in conditions similar to the Harfoots: for example, the Inuit would abandon their elderly to die in the ice, and the Pirahã as described by Daniel Everett would do the same with babies born with some physical disadvantage. What we are shown is not that the Harfoots are "dark" or "mean" as an arbitrary cultural trait, but rather that their conditions are harsh, and that they survive by doing what is necessary to prevent their precarious living conditions from degrading beyond survival.

I've been thinking of a way to respond to this in a board-friendly fashion and I've decided to do it with a quotation from Gandalf, in Return of the King, when Denethor was about to set himself on fire.

“Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your own death. And only the heathen kings, under the dominion of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.”

From this we learn

-- the forefathers of the Edain were men who knew not the light of Valinor nor the wisdom of the elves, and they had many customs which the west of middle earth would deem evil. Such as committing suicide out of despair, and taking their own family with them.

-- these men came over the mountains and were instructed by the Noldor into a better life which is more in accord with the 'light of the west' , probably not coincidentally one that bears resemblance to the morality Tolkien knew.

-- From this I deem that the hobbits of the later Shire are much like these Edain AFTER they received this instruction -- indeed, they were part of the kingdom of Arnor, lived under a Thain appointed by that king, and sent archers to the final battle of Fornost.

That's the hobbits after crossing the Brandywine, founding the shire, and living for centuries as an autonomous free nation within a Numenorian civilization. People who are as different from the proto-hobbit Harfoots we encounter as a modern lawyer would be from a cave-dwelling hunter/gatherer.

The Harfoots we see do not yet know of the Valar or have any wisdom but their own. Because of this they have customs such as putting aside the old and feeble which Frodo or Samwise would deride as barbaric.

Presumably a large part of the arc of this story will be their encounter with the elves and subsequent journey from superstitious, savage people to the beautiful Shire in the books. At the least, I would expect them to start on this journey. At the moment, from what people say, they sound no more noble or enlightened than the Gully Dwarves of Dragonlance. The difference being, of course, that the Gully dwarves are not capable of improvement, while the proto-hobbits are going to become Bagginses and Tooks and Gamgees.

I am frankly astonished that the showrunners are taking this tack because it runs contrary to the trend of thought in most modern shows as exemplified by Avatar or Dances With Wolves or The Last Samurai. Modern story telling tends to tell a story of indigenous people who are just doing fine in their environment, thank you very much, who don't need "civilizing" by extraterrestrial conquerors whose fair words mask an unconquerable hunger for unobtanium. I can't count the number of shows and movies over the past ten years that have taken this tack or told a similar story. The idea of primitive hobbits being 'uplifted' by primarily blonde-haired white-skinned tall people sounds like something Kipling would have written in the 19th century, not a product of the 21st.

Respectfully,

Brian P.