Results 1 to 30 of 31
Thread: When did elves get pointed ears?
-
2011-07-30, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
When did elves get pointed ears?
I'd like to know when pointed ears became automatic for elves. I've done a little research, but it's not complete.
As near as I can tell, there was never a mention of special ears on elves in the original legends. Arthur Rackham's illustrations virtually always had pointed ears on nonhumans, but there was no mention of it in any books. Influenced by Arthur Rackham (I think), many but not all 20th-century illustrators used pointed ears. Garth Williams had some with pointed ears and some without.
But while illustrations used pointed ears more and more, I'd never read any description of pointy-eared elves.
Wendy Pini's Elfquest starting in 1978 clearly stated that elves had pointed ears. Is that the first clear, unambiguous statement in print?
There's no mention of elven ears in OD&D (and in the only drawing of an elf, you can't see his ears, which implies that it isn't a defining racial characteristic).
So my questions are these:
1. When did people first start stating in print that elves had pointed ears?
2. When did roleplaying game rules start including it?
-
2011-07-30, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
You know Elfquest? Sweet, so many fellow fantasy enthusiasts I am acquainted with do not know Elfquest. I like me elves 4' tall, riding wolves with three fingers.
Anyhoo, you can probably point to Tolkien. Though if I recall there it is only alluded to. Haven't read in a while.
Or even better, european mythology concerning Faeries and the Sidhe, often described as 'feral'. Slanted eyes, sharp noses and pointed ears/teeth etc.
I'm sure someone will come along and write an essay for you :)
-
2011-07-30, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Tolkiens elves had pointed ears. Not the head daggers you see on warcraft elves, but to a certain extent, yes. Also, Victorian fairies had pointed ears, at least some of the time.
-
2011-07-30, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Can you provide the quotation? I know some illustrators have drawn them with pointed ears, but I don't know of any place where Tolkien wrote that they had them.
As far as I know, Tolkien does not describe elven ears in any story, which I assume he would have done if that had been a racial characteristic. He left some ambiguous notes that people have argued over for years.
My questions stand. Who (besides Wendy Pini) clearly and straightforwardly wrote that elves had pointed ears, and what was the first RPG that said so. It wasn't Original D&D, so it had to come in sometime.
In ADD 1E, there is no mention of ears in either the description of PC races in the PHB or in the Monster Manual, but both pictures in the Monster Manual show pointed ears, as does the picture on page 122 of the PHB.
-
2011-07-30, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Central Iowa
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Well, there is one thing mentioned in a letter he wrote that implies that they are more pointed than [something].
There are also a lot of references to his Elves and men being physically the same race (members of one group mistaken for the other, etc).
My take on it is that his elves' ears may have a slight pointy tendency, but not so much as to be an identifying mark. If anybody's doing any identification of elves, they generally note something about the light in their eyes or how musical their voices are. Ears don't get mentioned.
But, yeah. Pointy-eared elves/fairies/etc. have been around much longer than Tolkien in any case.
Edit - tricksyhobbitsesninjasLast edited by WalkingTarget; 2011-07-30 at 04:03 PM.
Take your best shot, everyone else does.
Avatar by Guildorn Tanaleth. See other avatars below.
SpoilerMy original avatar and much better ones by groundhog22 and a Winter Olympics one by Rae Artemi.
-
2011-07-30, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Tolkien said that his elves had ears like leaves. Everyone assumed he meant lanceolate leaves (find them here, fourth row from the top, second column from the left) so that was what artists represented, and that's what stuck.
EDIT: It's actually very likely he was going by folklore here, saying that the Fae (which is what elves were part of, in some European mythologies), being so attuned to the forest, had plant-like characteristics, including leaf-like ears.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2011-07-30 at 04:07 PM.
-
2011-07-30, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
A lot of those leaves could be considered "pointed" and those that aren't are either unusual enough as leaf shapes that further description would be necessary (like bipinette or digitate) or are shaped like human ears, like reniform, and therefore not needing a special description as leaf shaped.
Humans show a, at least from our perspective, wide variety of features. Elves could still be considered members of the human species, the human race, while still having unusual ears. Ears that hair, hat or other head adornment could easily hide, as Spock showed in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
-
2011-07-30, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Everywhere
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I would say given the major influence folklore had on LoTR it defiantly has mythological roots. Its certainly not Norse. Though Norse mythology set the archetype of dark and light elves they where all very similar to dwarfs. I know the name Gandalf came from the Prose Edda.
It seems to me the pointy ears actually came from fairy lore when it melded with lore about elves. Tolkien seems to have intertwined them in the birth of high fantasy."You have to systematically create confusion, it sets creativity free. Everything that is contradictory creates life."
-Salvadore Dali
The screen's glow is hiding the mammon beast
It's cauterized the senses that allowed us real life
-Blackbird Raum
-
2011-07-30, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Pointed ears are definitely not as noticeable as you might think, just as someone mentioned above. My sister, I swear to gawd, has elf ears(pointed) as well as looks fairly elven. But very few people have ever noticed. And those that do are usually into fantasy.
Murder is wrong... Unless it levels you up.
-
2011-07-30, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Look at Humans & elves like dog breeds; Two breeds from the same race.
The German Shepherds have naturally pointy ears, the beagle does not. Same species, different breed
-
2011-07-30, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- Nowhere Land
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
In the tradition & time period in which Tolkien wrote, "elf" was synonymous with "fairy". Tolkien simply preferred the sort of fairies one saw in medieval romances (tall, noble, powerful) to the little winged pixies that the Victorians liked so much, and so that's how his elves were. "Fairy" and "elf" now mean different things -- largely because of Tolkien's influence -- but in the past the two myths cross-pollinated. Any pre-Tolkien tradition that describes fairies as having pointed ears can be carried over to modern depictions of elves.
-
2011-07-30, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Beyond the Ninth Wave
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Tolkein's elves are drawn straight out of the godlike ælfe of Norse mythology, not the fairy myths of Western Europe. That said, you are probably correct that Tolkein's description of elven ears as "leaf-shaped" was likely influenced by Victorian and post-Victorian fables.
Originally Posted by KKL
-
2011-07-31, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I'm quite certain it has its origins way back in medieval folklore. I tentatively hypothesise that it's related to the "wrongness" that various fey things tended to have - cleft hoofs, or webbed fingers, or tusks, and so on. Pointed ears could easily fit in with that.
Last edited by Serpentine; 2011-07-31 at 12:18 AM.
The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
Prizes(Un)Official Best Playground Avatarist Competition
----
Also, buy my stuff! T-Shirts too!
-
2011-07-31, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Sacramento-ish, CA
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
This is a shot in the dark, since I'm not at all knowledgeable, but could it have related to various descriptions of the devil/devils? Since just about anything "wrong" was kinda equated with demonic back then.
LGBTAitP
"You can't just go around opting out of critical analysis by preemptively declaring yourself pointless."
- Mordecai, Lackadaisy Cats
-
2011-07-31, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I don't think so. I think this is older than Christianisation, or at least separate, and/or the influence going both ways.
The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
Prizes(Un)Official Best Playground Avatarist Competition
----
Also, buy my stuff! T-Shirts too!
-
2011-07-31, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I guess I'm not communicating. Can anybody cite an actual written source (not a drawing) before Elfquest that mentions pointy ears?
Secondly, when was the first mention of pointed elf ears in RPG rules?
If you know of a printed reference, please let me know.
-
2011-07-31, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Sigh. Google is your friend.
Letter 27 in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter with assistance from Christopher Tolkien.
I can't help you with the second question because I'm not a rpg connoisseur. Also, you should rephrase that enquiry because "elves have pointy ears" is unlikely to have ever been a rule in any RPG.
-
2011-07-31, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- Kitchener/Waterloo
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
Trophy!
-
2011-07-31, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
-
2011-07-31, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Thank you for citing your source. I've already cited both that quote and the other ones from Tolkien arguing in the other direction. If you take either half of the available citations from Tolkien, you can be pretty sure in one way or the other, depending on which half you took. But all these Tolkien quotes taken together are ambiguous. He never clearly states that elves have pointed ears, but he implies both that they do and that they don't at various times.
In any event, he certainly never mentioned them in the descriptions of elves in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, etc., when describing elves.
Rules nonetheless include descriptions of races. For instance, the AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual has a two paragraph description that mentions complexion, height, weight, hair color, eye color, features, complexion, build, and clothing preferences, but not ears:
High elves, the most common type of elf, are somewhat shorter than men, never growing much over than 5 feet tall. Male elves usually weigh between 90 and 120 pounds, and females weigh between 70 and 100 pounds. Most high elves are dark-haired, and their eyes are a beautiful, deep shade of green. They posses infravision up to 60 feet. The features of an elf are delicate and finely chiseled.
Elves have very pale complexions, which is odd because they spend a great deal of time outdoors. They tend to be slim, almost fragile. Their pale complexion and slight builds are the result of a constitution that is weaker than man's. Elves, therefore, always subtract 1 point from their initial Constitution score. Though they are not as sturdy as humans, elves are much more agile, and always add 1 point to their initial Dexterity scores. Elven clothing tends to be colorful, but not garish. They often wear pastel colors, especially blues and greens. Because they dwell in forests, however, high elves often wear greenish grey cloaks to afford them quick camouflage.
-
2011-07-31, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
That is correct. I don't have access to his 27th letter, but I would presume it's fairly unequivocal. There's no implication there. As far as I understand it, he said it plainly.
Rules nonetheless include descriptions of races. For instance, the AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual has a two paragraph description that mentions complexion, height, weight, hair color, eye color, features, complexion, build, and clothing preferences, but not ears:
I'm trying to figure out when pointed ears became an automatic part of how we view elves, as important to mention as their eyes, height, complexion, etc.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2011-07-31 at 01:44 PM.
-
2011-07-31, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Central Iowa
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I take it you mean letter 27? Letter 17 is about the suitability of The Hobbit as a children's bedtime story (along with a discussion on the proper plural of "dwarf").
It is also something to think about, however, that letter 27 (where he mentions hobbits' ears being "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'") was written in 1938 to his American publishers. This, in my mind, leaves things open to the possibility that he's using a word (elvish) in a sense that the recipient would take it to mean, not necessarily how his own personal creations look. In particular, his comment about the ear shape was in response to hobbits as "a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of [his] British reviewers seem to fancy" - which might be imagined as having long rabbit-like ears - a confusion stemming from a name the Trolls call Bilbo, similar to how Twoflower wound up with 4 eyes on the cover of The Colour of Magic rather than simply having glasses.Take your best shot, everyone else does.
Avatar by Guildorn Tanaleth. See other avatars below.
SpoilerMy original avatar and much better ones by groundhog22 and a Winter Olympics one by Rae Artemi.
-
2011-07-31, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Drawings are valid sources, especially when it comes to appearances. I'm not sure why you're so against them.
Interestingly, neither of the books on fairies I own say anything about ears, although they have several pictures with pointy ones.
You might be able to find something in the costume notes of Midsummer Night's Dream.
Wikipedia suggests evidence from Victorian times, at least.Last edited by Serpentine; 2011-07-31 at 01:50 PM.
The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
Prizes(Un)Official Best Playground Avatarist Competition
----
Also, buy my stuff! T-Shirts too!
-
2011-07-31, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
That is correct. Post edited.
It is also something to think about, however, that letter 27 (where he mentions hobbits' ears being "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'") was written in 1938 to his American publishers. This, in my mind, leaves things open to the possibility that he's using a word (elvish) in a sense that the recipient would take it to mean, not necessarily how his own personal creations look. In particular, his comment about the ear shape was in response to hobbits as "a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of [his] British reviewers seem to fancy" - which might be imagined as having long rabbit-like ears - a confusion stemming from a name the Trolls call Bilbo, similar to how Twoflower wound up with 4 eyes on the cover of The Colour of Magic rather than simply having glasses.
Let us nip this in the bud, shall we? There's the evidence the OP was after, now all we need is for this thread to catch the attention of a hardcore RPG fan who can answer the second part of his question.
-
2011-07-31, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Central Iowa
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I'm fine with saying that there is no definitive resolution. Recognizing ambiguity for what it is instead of insisting on a hard line stance is all I'm going for (sorry if that's not apparent).
I've got a long history on these boards (mostly in the Media section) of pointing out what Tolkien (and Lovecraft, and others) didn't say. It's like dwarf women and beards. I've recently seen references to it being mentioned in one of the History of Middle-earth books (which I don't have access to), but it's never stated outright in the stuff he published or in his Letters. What he did say allows for the assumption to be made, though.Take your best shot, everyone else does.
Avatar by Guildorn Tanaleth. See other avatars below.
SpoilerMy original avatar and much better ones by groundhog22 and a Winter Olympics one by Rae Artemi.
-
2011-07-31, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
-
2011-07-31, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
- Location
- Right here
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
For what it's worth, here's a bit of dialogue from the OldTrek episode "This Side of Paradise", aired March 2, 1967:
Kirk: "You're an overgrown jackrabbit, an elf with a hyperactive thyroid."
So we can see that like everything else in rpgs, elves having pointed ears stems from Star Trek."Conan what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to sell them inexpensive furniture you can assemble yourself with an Allen wrench. And meatballs."
"Meatballs. That is good!"
-
2011-07-31, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- SW England
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
Western fairies could be godlike as well, e.g. the Tuatha Dé Danann / Sidhe.
And according to Wikipedia, "the word fairy derives ... ultimately from Late Latin fata (one of the personified Fates)"
(Not that this answers the OP one way or the other).
-
2011-07-31, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I'm not opposed to it; I've already used it. Pointed ears are rare before Arthur Rackham at the turn of the century, and in large part due to his influence, are quite common afterwards. There are round ears on the elf Goldy in the 1930s cartoon of King Midas; there are both round ears and pointed ears in The Giant Golden Book of Elves and Fairies, and pointy ears are much more common, published in 1951. Based on this evidence, it's clear that pointed ears were at least a common motif, but not a universal one.
That much can be learned from the drawings. But a drawing shows that a thing exists, and that this artist uses it; it cannot show that it is universal. I know that they were common in the 20th century, and that everyone thinks all elves have pointy ears now. What I'm trying to track down is when we made the switch from "common" to "universal". One of the reasons I'm doing this is that nobody I played D&D with in the 70s thoughts elves automatically had pointed ears. So I'm looking for that last turning point.
Thank you -- a clear, unambiguous quote. So by 1967, the connection has been in writing, even though my experience shows is isn't universal yet.
My original question was "When did roleplaying game rules start including it?" If it's mentioned in the rules, then the rules include it, as any gamer I've met uses the phrase.
-
2011-07-31, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: When did elves get pointed ears?
I have not seen the entire thing, but White Box D&D elves do not seem to have pointed ears. AD&D elves did however.