New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 103
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Gender
    Male

    Default 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    New article up on the WotC site. What have we learned?
    • Turn Undead is still in 4th Ed. I smell divine/turn undead fueled feats as well, since they've figured prominently in most of the recent supplements.
    • Critical hits are still in 4th Ed.
    • Zombies are subject to critical hits. I'm guessing that they're getting rid of the whole Precision damage/critical hit immunity thing. But that's just a guess.
    • Zombie is no longer a template?


    Discuss

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    There's also some mild implication of death by massive damage. At one point, he mentions something about a sufficiently powerful blow killing a zombie in a cooler manner than a headshot, and he actually uses the phrase "massive damage" in the final paragraph. Of course, that could also be interpreted as some form of fast healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    I don't like zombies not being a template. There should be a difference between a zombie created from big and muscled orc and from fragile elf. Otherwise, meh. Lots of talking about one creature.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
    Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    shadowdemon_lord's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Well, I hope they don't retain death by massive damage, or if they do it has a much better application. Such as basing it off of HD, or total HP, not just a flat number.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Metal Head's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boston, city of awesome
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    What!? Zombies aren't templates? What sort of idiocy is this?
    Awesome avatar by Threeshades. And the funny sig by sparkey477
    Spoiler
    Show

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    KIDS's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Croatia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Thanks for the link!

    It's simple. Elegant. Devious. I like it.
    In an age of coming improvements, even if I have less trivial things to worry about, articles like these fill me with happiness.

    p.s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metal_Head
    What!? Zombies aren't templates? What sort of idiocy is this?
    *takes a deep breath*

    THIS IS SPARTA!
    Last edited by KIDS; 2007-10-19 at 03:55 PM.
    There is no good and evil. There is only more and less.
    - Khorn'Tal
    -----------------------------------------
    Kalar Eshanti

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Eldmor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    When I do massive damage in D&D it's 5 times your Constitution. This rewards tougher characters and makes the squishy squishier. I based it off of d20 Modern's massive damage which is just your Constitution. Sticks very close to the "one bullet can kill you" mentality.
    Last edited by Eldmor; 2007-10-19 at 11:49 PM. Reason: CON != HP
    Libras D'lnar avatar by CSK

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Rockphed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Watching the world go by
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    I don't like zombies not being a template. There should be a difference between a zombie created from big and muscled orc and from fragile elf. Otherwise, meh. Lots of talking about one creature.
    I don't think he said that you can't make your gnoll zombies, just that you don't need to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Starfall
    When your pants are full of crickets, you don't need mnemonics.
    Dragontar by Serpentine.

    Now offering unsolicited advice.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    I don't like this very much. This is all implications that zombies rely on what's inside them instead of just bones and muscles to scoot around. In the D&D I know, you don't kill a zombie by putting a hole in it's head, you just break up it's body. Also, a lot of that article seems to imply the zombies of D&D are going to be like the zombies of the movies, where the zombies of the movies are really more like mindless ghouls. That is an aspect of movies that bugs me, I don't want it at my table.
    My Deviantart, Please enjoy it.
    Invincible Maiden Avatar by GryffonDurime.

    Spoiler
    Show



    Homebrew by Krimm Blackleaf


  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lord Tataraus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Easton, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    GAH! How come I can get on to my Gleemax account but D&D Insider doesn't recognize me? Aren't they supposed to be the same account? As you can guess, I can't read the article, could someone copy it into a spoiler or something? Please?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Krimm_Blackleaf View Post
    Also, a lot of that article seems to imply the zombies of D&D are going to be like the zombies of the movies, where the zombies of the movies are really more like mindless ghouls.
    Cuz zombies are intelligent in D&D now...

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    KIDS's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Croatia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Wait I don't understand - why the hate towards lumbering and mindless? Isn't that what zombies are supposed to be?

    (I'm talking about classic zombies, not voodoo or similar ones which are closer to ghouls and spirit-wraiths)
    There is no good and evil. There is only more and less.
    - Khorn'Tal
    -----------------------------------------
    Kalar Eshanti

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Spoiler
    Show
    Shambling, mindless corpses are getting all gussied up for 4E Although it might be hard to believe that something as simple as an animated carcass needed an overhaul, with ample influences in movies and video games, the designers knew the zombie was an ideal guinea pig for applying the new monster philosophy. So they set about keeping the zombie simple to run, but they gave it a clear role and made it feel more like the zombies from the big screen.

    Every 3rd Edition D&D player thinks of a zombie, at best, as a tough bag of hit points that can take a beating. At worst, the zombie is seen as a really slow fighter or grist for the turn undead mill. Unfortunately, a Large or smaller 3E zombie really required a weapon to be scary on the damage-dealing side, and they were a lot easier to take out than any movie zombie.

    Rethinking the zombie required harkening to the zombie in popular culture while maintaining the D&D elements that make undead cool. Zombies move slowly, dragging their lifeless feet, and it takes a heck of a blow to kill one, so tough is right. But zombies don’t pick up weapons, even convenient ones. They tear you apart with their bare dead hands. They overwhelm you with numbers, drag you down, and eat you.

    The new zombie is a brute with just enough reasoning power to know who to kill. It’s easy to hit—zombies don’t dodge—but it’s rotten body just soaks up blows that would kill a living creature. You had better be hitting the zombie hard every time, or it’ll just keep coming. If you manage to hit it really hard, say with a critical hit or a power that deals hefty damage, you might just take the creep out in one fell swing.

    That’s right. I did say, “critical hit.” The zombie is vulnerable to that now, which is sweeter than a head shot in any zombie flick.

    If you’re a player, take a moment right now to thank the merciful designers that turn undead is still in the game. That power doesn’t send the zombies running off to gods knows where, but if it doesn’t turn them to putrid dust, it does hold them at bay. Believe me—you don’t want zombies close to you. Even though they won’t come wielding greataxes, zombies can take your head off with their vicious slams. The bigger the zombie, the uglier the thump. And when zombies swarm you, some of them are going to grab you, maybe even pulling you to the ground. That’s not the place to be when the dead come knocking.

    As a DM, you don’t have to worry about creating the gnoll zombie or the orc zombie. The one set of Medium zombie statistics should do you fine. The players won’t know the difference, except by virtue of your descriptive talents. They should be most worried about the pummeling their characters are taking anyway.

    At appropriate levels, a fight against zombies should look more like a horror movie scene. Protagonists have to maneuver to keep away from the possibility of devastating damage while trying to cut their way through a relentless wall of dead flesh. The players get a thrill when a zombie goes down to massive damage, and the DM gets the satisfaction of using a monster that lives up to popular expectations.

    It’s a whole new game, even from the very bottom of the undead barrel. Now if we only had a few zombies that added some spice to the basic shambling corpse recipe. Perhaps I’ll go dig a few up for our next look at zombies....


    It seems like an acceptable conversion to me.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    New Hampshireland

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    I like the new zombies. I like the warlocks. I tolerated the cosmology. But I can't STAND the removal of saving throws! Not cool, WoTC! Not! Cool! Saving throws have been a staple of D&D for almost its entire existence!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GimliFett's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Trogland.Texas.DFW-ish
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    The way I understand the use of massive damage is just that: lots of damage. Meaning they're going to have DR and lotsa HPs with which to back it up and make it meaningful.

    My two copper.
    I have returned!! Not that most of y'all know whom I am.

    Mega-Awesome Avatar done by Dawn!

    The Many Faces of GimliFett.


  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus View Post
    GAH! How come I can get on to my Gleemax account but D&D Insider doesn't recognize me? Aren't they supposed to be the same account? As you can guess, I can't read the article, could someone copy it into a spoiler or something? Please?
    I think the DnD Insider just gives you a prettier article. Anyone can read the printer-friendly version.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    osyluth's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    The Abyss

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    zombies should still be immune to criticals, it makes sense and adds flavor

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by osyluth View Post
    zombies should still be immune to criticals, it makes sense and adds flavor
    Plus it's always bugged me when zombies get offed with headshots. Seriously, they're dead! Their brains are useless! You might as well say that they all die for no reason when their brains inevitably decompose!
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Glaivemaster's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Yorkshire, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    Plus it's always bugged me when zombies get offed with headshots. Seriously, they're dead! Their brains are useless! You might as well say that they all die for no reason when their brains inevitably decompose!
    Yeah, zombies...scientifically, they make no sense

    I want to see how this works before making my final opinion (as with most of 4E), but I have to say, I don't like the idea that zombies are going to be more like movie zombies. I've always used them in the past as moving corpses, possibly minions of a necromancer. They don't need intelligence to do their job - a formless pile of flesh and bones can do it just as well
    New Avatar by Dr. Bath. Many thanks

    Spoiler
    Show

    Ki-Glaivemaster by Quincunx


    See the real Glaivemaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomkin View Post
    Greek Gorgons certainly did not look like big metal cows.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    tarbrush's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by wowy319 View Post
    I like the new zombies. I like the warlocks. I tolerated the cosmology. But I can't STAND the removal of saving throws! Not cool, WoTC! Not! Cool! Saving throws have been a staple of D&D for almost its entire existence!
    I kinda like the move away from saving throws. The huge volume of save or lose effects makes quite a lot of battles turn into a 'who can avoid rolling a 1 the most' competion. Depending on the mechanic used to replace them, I'm cautiously optimistic about saving throws dying.
    Don’t date the sane ones, they’ll only make you crazy. Date the really insane ones but never let them know where you live or work.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Nowhere Girl's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    It always bugged me that zombies were immune to critical hits.

    Look, I don't care whether they're dead or not, a body functions on a certain mechanical design and can be effectively disabled with minimal effort if the right parts are attacked:

    Broken spine = body can't do anything meaningful at all

    Severed Achilles = body can at best drag itself

    Exploded head = no way for body to navigate ... and no way to do anything if the brain is needed (sure, it's a dead brain, but those are dead limbs with dead muscles inside, too, and that doesn't seem to be slowing them down)

    And so on.

    I maintain that precision should let you disable a zombie efficiently.

    But even more, I like the promise of zombies being made actually scary. I hope they can deliver on it.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Jack Mann's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldmor View Post
    When I do massive damage in D&D it's 5 times your hit points. This rewards tougher characters and makes the squishy squishier. I based it off of d20 Modern's massive damage which is just your constitution. Sticks very close to the "one bullet can kill you" mentality.
    At what point does getting hit for five times your hit point not kill you?
    I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
    son of the sword and the knife
    Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
    my heart and my pride and my life
    --Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
    Spoiler
    Show


    Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth

    Owl-atar by KingGolem
    You will be missed, dear 'stache...

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Banned
     
    EvilElitest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oh gods i wish i knew
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
    Cuz zombies are intelligent in D&D now...
    wait what?
    from,
    EE

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    At what point does getting hit for five times your hit point not kill you?
    When you have less then three hit points? <<;
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    0oo0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Moscow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Girl View Post
    It always bugged me that zombies were immune to critical hits.

    Look, I don't care whether they're dead or not, a body functions on a certain mechanical design and can be effectively disabled with minimal effort if the right parts are attacked:

    Broken spine = body can't do anything meaningful at all

    Severed Achilles = body can at best drag itself

    Exploded head = no way for body to navigate ... and no way to do anything if the brain is needed (sure, it's a dead brain, but those are dead limbs with dead muscles inside, too, and that doesn't seem to be slowing them down)

    And so on.

    I maintain that precision should let you disable a zombie efficiently.

    But even more, I like the promise of zombies being made actually scary. I hope they can deliver on it.
    The counter to this is to say they are animated by fell powers (negative energy, magic, whatever) which preclude the usual physical means used for perception and movement
    Do androids dream of electric sheep?
    Thanks to Kalirush for making such an awesome avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tweekinator View Post
    "You're different! Yet remarkably right about so many things."
    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    25) Plane Shift to the British Empire. The sun never sets there.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Northen Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    At what point does getting hit for five times your hit point not kill you?
    When you have Delay Death, a bucket of water, and a lenient DM?

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Jack Mann's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    When you have less then three hit points? <<;
    Okay, granted, but at that point, isn't forcing them to save vs. death a little cruel?
    I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
    son of the sword and the knife
    Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
    my heart and my pride and my life
    --Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
    Spoiler
    Show


    Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth

    Owl-atar by KingGolem
    You will be missed, dear 'stache...

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    Okay, granted, but at that point, isn't forcing them to save vs. death a little cruel?
    Yeah, -9 to 2 is a rather slim range. I think that the original post was in error...but the thought of renaming massive damage "<3 Attack" amuses me greatly.
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Carnegie Mellon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    You're all missing the most important bit. The article mentions that a zombie can still "take your head off with a vicious slam". This means that the zombie's attack is still a slam.

    Now, nobody has ever given me a satisfactory answer to this question:

    What in the name of $DEITY is a slam?

    This would have been the perfect opportunity to fix this once and for all. How could they have screwed this up?
    My Red Hand of Doom campaign journal: Part I, Part II
    Love the Third Amendment?

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: 4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

    At last...no more death-stares at the DM every time my character ends up in a crypt. Go rogues!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •