Is rogue a single or multi/dip into class?

[elyktsorb]

Moon Druid 2/ Rogue 2 with Mobile (from V.Human) can be remarkably scary on the offence. Entangle + Wild Shape on Turn 1, followed by a Bonus Action Dash and attack combo to kite the crap out of a target in following rounds; your speed is effectively more than quadrupled compared to your enemy because they're dealing with difficult terrain and you're operating at double an increased speed. If both you and your foe have a base speed of 30ft, they can move 15ft to your 80ft...and that's assuming you haven't Wild Shaped into something faster.

A lot of Druid shenanigans involve terrain manipulation which the Rogue is singularly well suited to take advantage of. How about Spike Growth, Wild Shape into a form suited for grappling, plus Expertise in Athletics and Bonus Action Dash? How about using summoned allies to proc Sneak Attack? Most of these things are better with one Druid and one Rogue character, but there's really no reason why it wouldn't work on a single multiclass build.

Druids, as a single class, make remarkably good roguish types and multiclassed with actual Rogue only doubles down on it. I've long wanted the opportunity to play a Rogue/Druid...sounds like a blast to me.

You're just describing something that moderately isn't worth it in the long run. Biggest thing is that you delay your Moon Druid's ability to get that magic based beast attacking, as well as ruining the capstone, which if you are going that far, isn't really worth it for some low level shenanigans that you could arguably do without the dip into rogue.

It works on a multiclass build, but it's not really a question of you can't do it, but rather one of, 'well there's like several other things I could be doing if I'm trying to make an interesting multiclass'

[RogueJK]

Fighter is a good mix with Rogue, but I prefer Ranger for 3-5 levels in most cases. Either Hunter or Gloom Stalker is pretty good ESPECIALLY if you can use the Revised version. For an Arcane Trickster, consider a few levels of Bladesinger Wizard if you can.

Ranger 2/3/5 is a great addition to a Rogue, not only getting you better combat abilities, but also an additional skill and a bit of 1st/2nd level spellcasting.

Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger is a fantastic combo, either way. (Tied with Sorcadin for my favorite Multiclass combo.) Both AT 3/BS X and BS 2/AT X are fun, for different reasons, with the latter being the more "optimal" choice in most cases.

Moon Druid 2/ Rogue 2 with Mobile (from V.Human) can be remarkably scary on the offence. Entangle + Wild Shape on Turn 1, followed by a Bonus Action Dash and attack combo to kite the crap out of a target in following rounds; your speed is effectively more than quadrupled compared to your enemy because they're dealing with difficult terrain and you're operating at double an increased speed. If both you and your foe have a base speed of 30ft, they can move 15ft to your 80ft...and that's assuming you haven't Wild Shaped into something faster.

That Druid/Rogue combo could be useful at 4th level. It might be fun for a one-shot. But a Moon Druid's CR1 forms start being outclassed in combat after Level 4ish. That Bear form that everyone loves and that seems so powerful at Level 2 is noticeably less impressive by Level 5.

Moon Druids really rely heavily on their Druid level progression to stay relevant with their Wild Shape forms. Even then, Combat Wild Shape is a bit of a rollercoaster, starting to lag in power at the Tail end of Tier 1, then getting a boost in early Tier 2, then lagging again through Tier 2, before finally getting another boost with Elemental Wild Shape.

[Catullus64]

How are you getting 80 ft. Of movement? With the Dash and the difficult terrain you have like, 30 feet to your enemy's 15- and if you are dashing unless your Wild Shape has reach (none early I think) you are still triggering AoOs.

Mobile ignores difficult terrain when you Dash.

Whenever someone brings up how Rogues are sub-par and boring relative to other classes in combat, it always makes me wonder about how combat itself plays at other tables.

Do enemies not run away and need chasing? Do you never need to run away yourself? Are combat areas never laden with hidden hazards and traps? Are useful assets or priority targets never behind locked/hidden doors or down long corridors? Do enemies never hide? Do enemies not carry useful or dangerous items that can be filched? Is it never necessary to waylay or misdirect incoming reinforcements?

For pretty much all of these situations, I'd prefer to have a Rogue on hand relative to any other class that might, in simpler circumstances, deal much more damage. For pretty much all of these situations, there's a particular Rogue subclass who can deal with it especially well. Rogues thrive when you get creative, when you remember that this is still a role-playing game even when initiative is rolled.

EDIT: A more minor point, but perhaps more to the OP's interests: Rogues have that extra ASI at level 10 to incentivize staying with the class for the long haul.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I don't think this works. The extra action from Haste can't be used either to cast a cantrip or to ready an action.

"That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."

So you can ready your main action, then attack with the Hasted action for 2 sneak attacks, but you can't add booming blade onto it. Booming blade is still a great cantrip for an AT since you won't have haste on you every combat. Hit with booming blade, disengage, move back so they have to take the rider damage. They just don't work together.

You are totally correct, my bad. I just edit my post to avoid passing wrong info. Nevertheless, you could still cast Booming Blade with your main action and simply attack with your extra action provided by Haste -- not that good, but it's still effective.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's less awkward when your a Lightfoot Halfling and can hide behind any of your medium allies for free.

That's true, though you then give your targets cover or else need to spend an ASI on Sharpshooter.

[Valmark]

Mobile ignores difficult terrain when you Dash.

Ops, forgot the Mobile feat. My bad.

[cutlery]

Rogues scale pretty well with extra attack; usually enough to offset the loss of sneak attack die, and you get a more consistent damage application (and a character that benefits more from things like flametongue weapon, shadow blade, etc).

Two levels for cunning action and expertise is pretty great.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Then the Booming Blade doesn't trigger when the enemy moves.

Sure. You still get the bonus d8's of initial damage. It's a free upgrade to SA.

[jojosskul]

I'm a huge fan of Martial of Choice 5/Rogue X. Especially the Barbarian flavor, if you take Zealot you only effectively lose out on 2 sneak attack dice instead of three, which extra attack more than makes up for. Works great with ranger, pretty darn well with fighter (Action Surge is built in extra sneak attack once a short rest), and not as well with Paladin mainly due to incredible MAD issues at that point.

For pure Rogue, I think that part of the issue is that all of the fun extra stuff you can do is almost entirely based around your subclass. So if you choose one that doesn't give you anything to do that you find fun, you're not going to have a good time.

Personally, AT and Thief are the most fun. You can change up your playstyle based on inventory/item/spell choice. Assassin looks great on paper, but you're only getting to do your cool trick ONCE and almost all of their abilities are basically ribbons until the end. Swashbuckler can be quite fun and does a melee dual wielding build extremely well.

Mastermind's level 3 ability can be great in the right party, but with sneak attack being your main source of damage you really want to give YOURSELF advantage, not others.

Inquisitor's level 3 ability seems like a solution looking for a problem. Sure, bonus action to guarantee sneak attack is nice, but really you're better off just hiding to ALSO grant yourself advantage. It's not that hard to get Sneak Attack to proc.

Scout I actually like. It gives you something great to use with your REACTION, which is normally just for uncanny dodge, leaving you to use your bonus action for the already great things Rogues can do with cunning action. Extra themed expertise to make you better than other rogues at what you're supposed to be good at is also quite nice. If that's the kind of character you want to play, Scout plays it's role very well.

I'm really excited for Tasha's to see how the new Rogue subclasses shake out. Because every time I've played rogue (and I've played quite a few) my level of enjoyment has always stemmed from the quality of the subclass.

[OldTrees1]

For pure Rogue, I think that part of the issue is that all of the fun extra stuff you can do is almost entirely based around your subclass. So if you choose one that doesn't give you anything to do that you find fun, you're not going to have a good time.

Are you underselling Expertise + Reliable Talent?
Are you focusing just on combat?
I am trying to understand how you reach this conclusion.

That said, I do really like Mage Hand Legerdemain. That used to require 2 levels of a race & setting specific prestige class in 3E.

[RogueJK]

I'm a huge fan of Martial of Choice 5/Rogue X. Especially the Barbarian

Could you expand on that? What kind of a build are you recommending?

Barbarian's class abilities seem kind of counter to the usual Rogue build/playstyle, whereas things like Battlemaster Fighter or Hunter/Gloomstalker Ranger seem to complement the Rogue is so many ways.

So I'm having a hard time seeing what Barbarian offers over Ranger or Fighter. So many Barbarian abilities revolve around STR-based attacks, and focusing on STR is suboptimal for a Rogue. And many of their other abilities make you tankier, which is not what the Rogue should be doing. (I agree that Zealot is one of the better options... But is it perhaps just a less bad option?)


On the other hand, I could see something like a Barbarian who dips Rogue for Athletics Expertise being handy. Maybe even 2 levels, to Grapple enemy then Cunning Action Dash to drag them at your full movement speed per round.

[OldTrees1]

Could you expand on that? What kind of a build are you recommending?

I'm having a hard time seeing what Barbarian offers over Ranger or Fighter. Especially since so many Barbarian abilities revolve around STR-based attacks, and focusing on STR is suboptimal for a Rogue. Many of their others make you tankier, which is not what the Rogue should be doing. (I agree that Zealot is one of the better options... But is it perhaps just the least worst option?)

Barbarian's class abilities seem kind of counter to the usual Rogue build/playstyle, whereas things like Battlemaster Fighter or Gloomstalker Ranger seem to complement the Rogue is so many ways.

They explained how the Zealot Barbarian loses less damage when they to the "sacrifice damage in exchange for a 3rd chance to land your single hit".

For Barbarian / Rogue, I suggest focus on Str and use a pair of daggers. You will need 13+ Dex but Barbarians are known for having 12+ Dex. It will probably feel like a Barbarian dipping Rogue.

On the other hand, I could see something like a Barbarian who dips Rogue for Athletics Expertise being handy. Maybe even 2 levels, to Grapple enemy then Cunning Action Dash to drag them at your full movement speed per round.

I have seen one of these Barbarians in play. It definitely felt like a Barbarian rather than a Rogue despite being roughly a 1:1 multiclass. I forget the final level ratio but it was at least Goliath Bear Totem Barbarian 5 / Rogue 5. They liked the Uncanny Dodge.

[RogueJK]

They explained how the Zealot Barbarian loses less damage

And I acknowledged that as potentially the best/least worst Barbarian option. But Battlemaster or Hunter also help make up that lost damage, and more. And their Fighter/Ranger abilities fully complement the Rogue abilities/playstyle, rather than running counter to them.

[jojosskul]

Are you underselling Expertise + Reliable Talent?
Are you focusing just on combat?
I am trying to understand how you reach this conclusion.

That said, I do really like Mage Hand Legerdemain. That used to require 2 levels of a race & setting specific prestige class in 3E.

Expertise and Reliable Talent are amazing, and one of the main reasons I usually choose to play a rogue. They help greatly in either the exploration or social pillar, depending on where you focus.

I guess my main point is that for combat pillar, I like a lot of choice points. I can see how with certain rogue builds, people find the combat repetitive and was making the case that a lot of the time that issue is subclass based. Every time I see someone play rogue for the first time and choose Assassin, I get a little sad because I know they likely won't play Rogue again and I really like the class, both to play and DM for.

And to be clear, when I say "I like" I literally mean that I personally just like that thing or the other. Other people will naturally like different things, and I'm not trying to argue that their side of things is wrong especially in something as subjective as "Is this fun to play?" Just giving my persepective.

Could you expand on that? What kind of a build are you recommending?

Barbarian's class abilities seem kind of counter to the usual Rogue build/playstyle, whereas things like Battlemaster Fighter or Gloomstalker Ranger seem to complement the Rogue is so many ways.

So I'm having a hard time seeing what Barbarian offers over Ranger or Fighter. So many Barbarian abilities revolve around STR-based attacks, and focusing on STR is suboptimal for a Rogue. And many of their other abilities make you tankier, which is not what the Rogue should be doing. (I agree that Zealot is one of the better options... But is it perhaps just a less bad option?)

For Sneak Attack you only have to have a finesse weapon, you don't have to use Dex to attack with it. Grab a couple shortswords or a couple daggers, Reckless Attack with Str while raging and you're in business. And yeah the Ranger or Fighter may well be more optimal, especially from an Archer Rogue perspective, but sometimes I just want to wreck face as a rude dwarf who's mainly in it for glory and the money.

The non-subtle rogue is a funny image to me, and Danger Sense meshes really well with Evasion. Which helps make up for the lower Dex score. And some fun can definitely be had with expertise in Athletics, especially if your first attack hits and you have a free one to shove prone/grapple etc. It may not be the "optimal" build, but it definitely has room to be built optimally around the concept, if that makes sense?

My main point that I don't think I got across was that if I'm playing a martial class where I don't feel like I get that much once I hit extra attack and maybe a level or two beyond that, Rogue tacks on really well and would probably be how I'd actually finish out that build in the end.

[OldTrees1]

And I acknowledged that as potentially the best/least worst Barbarian option. But Battlemaster or Hunter also makes up that lost damage, and more. And their abilities fully complement the Rogue abilities/playstyle, rather than running counter to them.

Rogue -5 is roughly, every round, for all encounters per day, do -2.5d6
Zealot 5 is every round, for 3 encounters per day, do +1d6+5
Battle Master 5 is +4d8 per short rest.
Hunter 5 is every round, for all encounters per day, do +1d8

Call it 3 rounds per encounter, 2 encounters per rest, and 3 rests per day.
Rogue -5 is roughly -157.5
Zealot 5 is roughly +76.5
Battle Master 5 is roughly +54
Hunter is roughly +81

So Hunter is a better example than Zealot. However, I think this demonstrates that each dip does sacrifice damage from your single hit. In exchange they do get a 3rd d20 to land that single hit.

As for complement / not complement. Try a single classed Str Rogue. Str is not alien to Rogue. Cunning Action: Hide is the only feature strongly tied to Dex.

Expertise and Reliable Talent are amazing, and one of the main reasons I usually choose to play a rogue. They help greatly in either the exploration or social pillar, depending on where you focus.

I guess my main point is that for combat pillar, I like a lot of choice points. I can see how with certain rogue builds, people find the combat repetitive and was making the case that a lot of the time that issue is subclass based. Every time I see someone play rogue for the first time and choose Assassin, I get a little sad because I know they likely won't play Rogue again and I really like the class, both to play and DM for.

And to be clear, when I say "I like" I literally mean that I personally just like that thing or the other. Other people will naturally like different things, and I'm not trying to argue that their side of things is wrong especially in something as subjective as "Is this fun to play?" Just giving my persepective.

Ah, so your post was focusing on the combat pillar because you saw new players get have pain points in that area if they did not select a subclass that they liked in combat. That is clearer now.

[RogueJK]

Battle Master 5 is roughly +54

DPR is not the be-all and end-all of combat. A Battlemaster is not only adding damage, but has the ability to add other effects as well, which aren't quantified in DPR calculations. (That would be part of the "and more" to which I alluded.)

You're also not factoring in the Battlemaster's ability to Riposte, which is one of the few ways that Rogues can potentially get two Sneak Attacks per round. (Once on their turn, and once on the enemy's turn with a successful Riposte.) That would boost the DPR numbers further.

Str is not alien to Rogue. Cunning Action: Hide is the only feature strongly tied to Dex.

There's already a huge incentive for Rogues to focus on DEX, by necessitating the use of Finesse or Ranged weapons for Sneak Attack. There's no benefit there for going STR over DEX, since you can't use bigger weapons.

And the Rogue's other out of combat skills/roles, namely that of the Stealthy Scout, Trap Disarmer, Lock Picker, etc. would all suffer by having a lower DEX. Plus the likely need to invest in Medium/Heavy Armor to offset your lower DEX, which would further dampen Stealth. (This hurts certain subclasses like Assassin even more than others.)

I'm not saying that you can't make a STR Rogue, only that making a STR Rogue has some noticeable drawbacks compared to the traditional DEX Rogue. Again, a STR-focus runs counter to the Rogue's strengths, just like the Barbarian's class abilities, while mixing in some Fighter/Ranger levels affords additional abilities that complement and reinforce the DEX-based Rogue's existing strengths.

[OldTrees1]

DPR is not the be-all and end-all of combat. -snip-

Yeah, but the first pass comparison was the scope of that section of my post. I did the easy math, then the complicated evaluation can be layered on top yourself. See the conclusion of that section for more clarity.

There's already a huge incentive for Rogues to focus on DEX, by necessitating the use of Finesse or Ranged weapons for Sneak Attack. There's no benefit there for going STR over DEX, since you can't use bigger weapons.

Did you know Rogues can wield shortswords? And yet I recommend Rogues use daggers instead. It is almost as if the weapon choice does not matter and the out of combat utility of a knife is more important to a Rogue than getting +1 damage per round compared to their Sneak Attack damage.

And the Rogue's other out of combat skills/roles, namely that of the Stealthy Scout, Trap Disarmer, Lock Picker, etc. would all suffer by having a lower DEX. Plus the need to invest in Medium/Heavy Armor, which would further dampen Stealth. (This hurts certain subclasses like Assassin even more than others.)

Um, some Rogues take those roles. Other Rogues take other roles. Expertise lets a Rogue either be good at a skill they don't have the ability for, or be great at a skill they do have the ability for. It is not already restricted to "scout + dungeoneer".

For armor: Barbarians already avoid Heavy Armor. So a Barbarian / Rogue has roughly the same AC as a Barbarian.

For Assassin: Yes, if you choose the subclass that is devoted to the Stealth skill, you might want to be Dex based.

As a proponent of single classes Rogues, I have to say they are not as tied to Dex as it first appears.

I'm not saying that you can't make a STR Rogue, only that making a STR Rogue has some noticeable drawbacks compared to the traditional DEX Rogue. Again, a STR-focus runs counter to the Rogue's strengths, just like the Barbarian's class abilities, while mixing in some Fighter/Ranger levels affords additional abilities that reinforce the DEX-based Rogue's existing strengths.

I am not saying there are no drawbacks, but the drawbacks are fewer than your list.

[Aaron Underhand]

Played an AT high elf with BB to 11th. Sentinel is a damage boost, but with reliable talent I took skilled. Did feel in combat was fading as T3 rolled around but out of combat/role play just got a lot better...

[elyktsorb]

For Assassin: Yes, if you choose the subclass that is devoted to the Stealth skill, you might want to be Dex based.

Tbf if you chose Assassin you chose poorly.

[OldTrees1]

Tbf if you chose Assassin you chose poorly.

... Yes.

Yeah, the Assassin subclass ended up kinda like a DPS trap. On top of distracting the player from the core of the class (ability checks), it looks good but then turns out bad for either you or your party.

[RogueJK]

Played an AT high elf with BB to 11th. Sentinel is a damage boost, but with reliable talent I took skilled. Did feel in combat was fading as T3 rolled around but out of combat/role play just got a lot better...

I played a similar AT with Bladesinger dip into Tier 3. I never felt like I was lagging in combat. Reliably landing large amounts of damage using Booming Blade + Upcast Shadow Blade + Sneak Attack is a good feeling. And being able to slap big enemies with a disadvantaged Suggestion, Hold Person, Hideous Laughter, or Levitate (my 8th level any-school pick) is handy.

The sneaky magical hijinks out of combat were a highlight though, having all those additional spell options like Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Fog Cloud, Silent Image, Invisibility, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, etc. to assist you, not to mention your Familiar.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, the Assassin subclass ended up kinda like a DPS trap. On top of distracting the player from the core of the class (ability checks), it looks good but then turns out bad for either you or your party.

I've seen a Gloomstalker/Assassin Archer played to great effect in my group. Huge damage in the first round of combat, and since they had the Alert feat plus added both DEX and WIS to Initiative, there was rarely a time when they weren't first in combat. (Usually by a large margin; typically mid-20s initiative.)

Out of combat, their superior Stealth/Infiltration skills were quite handy for the party, especially boosted by things like invisibility in darkness and spells like Disguise Self and Pass Without a Trace.

Unlikely to hold up as well at higher levels since the higher level subclass abilities past 3rd are lackluster compared to other Rogues, but a solid choice for Tier 1/2 play (where the majority of D&D occurs), or for a 3-7 level multiclass option for some builds.

[OldTrees1]

I've seen a Gloomstalker/Assassin Archer played to great effect in my group. Huge damage in the first round of combat, and since they had the Alert feat plus added both DEX and WIS to Initiative, there was rarely a time when they weren't first in combat. (Usually by a large margin; typically mid-20s initiative.)

Since you were an archer, you basically already had the advantage for free, so you must be talking about the critical.

The crit only happens if the foe was surprised. The foe is only surprised if they did not notice anyone in your party. I assume the group must have been small and stealth focused? Otherwise it is easy for one of the other PCs to prevent surprise. Or the DM modified the Assassinate feature / Surprise rules to accommodate the Assassin. (Which is also quite reasonable)

The later features? Those are ok. It is just that hyped up 3rd level Assassinate feature that causes dissonance between expectation and reality.

[elyktsorb]

I've seen a Gloomstalker/Assassin Archer played to great effect in my group. Huge damage in the first round of combat, and since they had the Alert feat plus added both DEX and WIS to Initiative, there was rarely a time when they weren't first in combat. (Usually by a large margin; typically mid-20s initiative.)

Out of combat, their superior Stealth/Infiltration skills were quite handy for the party, especially boosted by things like invisibility in darkness and spells like Disguise Self and Pass Without a Trace.

Unlikely to hold up as well at higher levels since the higher level subclass abilities past 3rd are lackluster compared to other Rogues, but a solid choice for Tier 1/2 play (where the majority of D&D occurs), or for a 3-7 level multiclass option for some builds.

I know off the top of my head that Assassin's don't get a single stealth related bonus. Infiltration Expertise takes a week of setup and Imposter takes 3 hours of studying a specific character and both can't be used together, and both of these skills don't get you any bonuses to stealth any other Rogues wouldn't have. All the Assassin was adding was the big damage on the first round, which I find moderately annoying because you can never really use it on bosses.

[Yakk]

Rogue -5 is roughly, every round, for all encounters per day, do -2.5d6
Zealot 5 is every round, for 3 encounters per day, do +1d6+5
Battle Master 5 is +4d8 per short rest.
Hunter 5 is every round, for all encounters per day, do +1d8

You seem to be forgetting extra attack(2)?

Second, BM is precision and riposte. You'd only use +1d8 damage abilities on a crit or if you really, really needed to nova. You often have enough near-misses and attacks on you to more than make up for it.

Third, Zealot is +2 damage per hit and free advantage on every attack (reckless).

Forth, Hunter permits HM. You have hours and hours of it.

Call it 3 rounds per encounter, 2 encounters per rest, and 3 rests per day.

So you are using 2 short swords, and you have 20 dex.

Your baseline accuracy is 60%, crit is 5%.

Baseline is 1 attack + 1 offhand attack for 1.3d6 + 1.2*5 static damage, or 10.55 baseline damage.

Sneak attack accuracy is 84% with 7% crit chance.

Extra Attack(2) gives you +5.275 damage per round and ups sneak attack accuracy to 94% with a 8% crit chance; that is 0.11 times your sneak attack damage extra. (At 3d6 sneak attack, that is about 1 DPR).

Rogue -5 costs you 2.5d6 (8.75) per hit/crit, or 8.0 DPR, or -72 damage per day.

Zealot +5 1d6+5 is "sneak attack" like, so has 94% accuracy and 8% crit chance, for 8.27 DPR, or 74 more damage per day, less 12 damage per day from losing a bonus action to rage. Plus extra attack(2), and 1 DPR of extra sneak attack, rage for 32.4 for about +151.4 damage per day.

And that is before reckless attack auto-advantage.

Battle Master +5 has 12 dice/day; say burns 4 dice on a riposte, 4 dice on turning 3.6 misses into hits, and 4 dice on a hit, one of which is a crit. Let's assume 3d6 sneak attack dice; each riposte is then 4d6+1d8+5 per hit (15.025 per swing). 4*0.8 misses turned into hits -- we'll assume you get sneak attack from other attacks -- is 30.5 damage. And 4.5*5(22.5) from a raw damage boost. Plus extra attack(2) for +158.1 damage per day.

You can do better with more ripostes, but I was conservative.

With ~27 attacks/day, you'll miss by 1 1.35 times, 2 1.35 times, 3 1.35 times and 4 1.35 times or so. They have a 100%/88%/75%/63% chance of hitting after burning a die. So if you burn BM dice when you miss by 4 or less, you have an 81% chance of turning a miss into a hit, and you'll get 5.4 chance/day at that. Each die used is 6.8 damage here, even if there isn't sneak attack I only used 4 of them.

You will sometimes miss a riposte; at 23.5 damage per hit, if you miss by 6 it is still worth burning a precision on it (miss by up to 6, burn precision on riposte (or if you have used up the rest of your attacks this round and this is your last chance to sneak attack).

Hunter +5 uses Hunter's Mark (costs you 1 offhand attack for 4.6 damage per dead foe) for +6.825 damage per round (61.4), extra attack(2) (47.5), and it's 1d8 per turn (41.3) to do +150.2 damage per day minus 4.6 damage for every foe they attack that dies in a fight (moving HM).

5 levels of Hunter/BM/Zealot add about twice as much DPR as a Rogue gets from 5 levels of Rogue.

5e has a serious problem with front loading. A 5 level dip is really strong.

[OldTrees1]

-More detailed math-

Thank you for doing an even more elaborate model. I did not expect the conclusion but I am glad you did the more detailed model.

Given those numbers, taking a 5 level martial dip (in one of these subclasses that increases damage) will increase your damage by 5 levels but delay Reliable Talent by 5 levels.

Personally I still lean towards the single classed Rogue. Reliable Talent is worth only having "normal" damage. However now we know the math.

[JellyPooga]

You're just describing something that moderately isn't worth it in the long run. Biggest thing is that you delay your Moon Druid's ability to get that magic based beast attacking, as well as ruining the capstone, which if you are going that far, isn't really worth it for some low level shenanigans that you could arguably do without the dip into rogue.

It works on a multiclass build, but it's not really a question of you can't do it, but rather one of, 'well there's like several other things I could be doing if I'm trying to make an interesting multiclass'

It does, of course, depend on what kind of multiclass you want to pursue; a more Druid focused one or Rogue? Just a dip into one or the other? What subclasses? What I was describing is just an example of the possibilities and the real boon of Druid in a Rogue build (or vice versa) isn't in combat, besides.

Yes, multiclassing delays higher level features; that's a given. It's rather the point of many MC builds to sacrifice long term gains for short term ones. Whether they're worth it is the question.

For a Moon Druid dipping a few levels of Rogue, Expertise and Cunning Action are features that are always going to be useful; both scale well with level, as well as Wild Shape forms. The short term benefit is significantly better than a capstone feature that you may not ever achieve. Even taking Rogue to 5 or 7 is going to prove useful to a Moon Druid; Uncanny Dodge and Evasion will allow you to extend the durability of your Wild Shapes to a significant degree. Whether you're using Wild Shape to tank, kite or infiltrate/scout (which is basically all the uses of Wild Shape), then Rogue can very much be a good shout to improve all those areas.

[Morty]

Ironically enough, I believe Sneak Attack is the main contributor to the rogue's lack of variety. It turns the class' combat contribution into a flowchart, most of the time. Can you sneak attack? If yes, go ahead and nail something for that xd6 damage, then use Cunning Action to keep your lightly-armored self at a safe distance. If not, do whatever you need to sneak attack. If rogues' damage output didn't center on it so much, they might be a bit more varied in combat.

[sayaijin]

Ironically enough, I believe Sneak Attack is the main contributor to the rogue's lack of variety. It turns the class' combat contribution into a flowchart, most of the time. Can you sneak attack? If yes, go ahead and nail something for that xd6 damage, then use Cunning Action to keep your lightly-armored self at a safe distance. If not, do whatever you need to sneak attack. If rogues' damage output didn't center on it so much, they might be a bit more varied in combat.

This is a good point, but how can we rework it? The concept of the rogue is someone who is very skilled and attacks a critical point to deal extra damage.

We could give rogue extra attack and shave some d6's off of SA, but that doesn't feel very rogue-ey.

We could give the rogue the ability to trade d6's on SA for some other status condition on the enemy. Then they have the option to be less of a striker and more of a controller. Maybe 1d6 off of an attack for prone, 2 for blinded for a round. Just spitballing.

We could add more to cunning action like dodge, shove, grapple or if you're really feeling crazy maybe readying an action.

[Yakk]

One idea is a setup; you can setup the foe for that damage later.

Maybe delivered by someone else, or yourself next turn.

Damage delayed is inferior, so extra effects could be justified.