Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Mystic Muse]

So, asking those who are way better at this game than I.

With the new codex, how is Celestine? Because she looks...still worse than her index version by a fair bit.

[Cheesegear]

With the new codex, how is Celestine? Because she looks...still worse than her index version by a fair bit.

Celestine is barely playable at this point:
1. Celestine is broken. Nerf her...Then nerf her again. (Although, to be fair, nerfing Acts of Faith, is what nerfed her the hardest)
2. Gotta sell Junith Eruita and/or Triumph, therefore, make the model you have already (i.e; Celestine), garbage, so you're forced to buy new models.

[Mystic Muse]

Celestine is barely playable at this point:

Pretty much what I was afraid of.

Given there are no rules for other living saints, and Celestine is the reason I wanted to play the army, guess I can write off Sisters of Battle for the foreseeable future.

[Cheesegear]

...guess I can write off Sisters of Battle for the foreseeable future.

...But your forum profile says you're female. You have to play the female-centric army.


ION:
The Imperial Fists' 5th Company had another game vs. Venom-spam Drukhari - only two Planes. This game went very differently to vs. the Salamanders. Still won, though, 17-14. I'm very impressed with how the Battle Company is performing, and I don't know if that's because I'm a good player, or, if it's because Space Marines is - finally - a good Codex, and as long as you don't take the obviously trap units (e.g; Tactical Squads), you'll do fine.

Strongly considering switching the Missile/Las Venerable Dreads to Contemptors or Vicky Warsuits. However, knowing my luck, my next game will be against a pair of Knights.

IO,ON:
Really not happy about CA'19 making WD!Maelstrom the new standard. Trying to hold Objectives, is now stupid. Which means that Troops are only needed to make double Battalions or Brigades, and their only function is to generate CPs. Which means trying to run your Troops as cheap as possible, which, for Space Marines, means spamming Scouts, and by running a Battle Company, I am gimping myself for no reason... Well, the reason is that I'm a filthy casual who built my army toward the fluff. But, at some point that will cause me to lose games. Probably several. In a row.

[Mystic Muse]

...But your forum profile says you're female. You have to play the female-centric army.

Tyranids are a matriarchy. That's close enough, right?

[Cheesegear]

Tyranids are a matriarchy. That's close enough, right?

That's what I'm told; Women play most commonly, in order; Craftworlds (of course), Tyranids and then Daemons (wait, what...).
The handful of women in my meta, are just as competitive as men, they saw the rules for Sororitas, and hard pass.

[Mystic Muse]

That's what I'm told; Women play most commonly, in order; Craftworlds (of course), Tyranids and then Daemons (wait, what...).
The handful of women in my meta, are just as competitive as men, they saw the rules for Sororitas, and hard pass.

Eldar is the one I don't have any appreciable amount of, because none of the models strike me the way other factions do, except the Triumvirate.

[Wraith]

Tyranids are a matriarchy. That's close enough, right?

Absolutely not! You will like what the Games Workshop Marketing Department tells you to like and therefore prioritise your purchases accordingly, and that is final.

In seriousness though, would you mind if I were to ask what drew you to Tyranids, Mystic? I don't mean to use you as a representative of all female gamers, but unfortunately my local gaming groups are overwhelmingly male so without imagining crude stereotypes they're the ones whose appeal I rarely (if ever) get to ask about?

[Mystic Muse]

So, when I started, my starting army was between Sisters of Battle, and tyranids.

I went with tyranids because I had a few from a few years back when I first tried and failed to get into the game, and sisters were still all metal or resin.

Tyranids I like because I've always liked the all-devouring alien locust trope. I'm also extremely fond of the Zerg (have a Kerrigan messenger bag) and Slivers (have a commander deck that is as good as it's getting without me happening into $2000).

Also got a few deals on various Tyranid things which didn't hurt.

They also just generally have a very neat look about them. I adore my hierophant.

[Wraith]

....and Slivers (have a commander deck that is as good as it's getting without me happening into $2000).

Heh, that sounds familiar. A gamer after my own heart. (Possibly to devour. )

But thank you, for that; it seems that you like Tyranids not because they are "girly" but because they are just "cool".

<sarcasm> Wow. Whoever would have guessed? </sarcasm> GW certainly hasn't, apparently....

[Mystic Muse]

Heh, that sounds familiar. A gamer after my own heart. (Possibly to devour. )

I also have 16 other commander decks fully constructed and ready to go at a moment's notice.

But thank you, for that; it seems that you like Tyranids not because they are "girly" but because they are just "cool".

<sarcasm> Wow. Whoever would have guessed? </sarcasm> GW certainly hasn't, apparently....

Honestly, I'm more than happy for things to be girly. Things can be both girly and cool.

What bugs me is a couple different things.

The first is, even for factions that could be women, like guard, almost every single model is male.

Then there's Slaanesh, which GW apparently can't seem to come up with anything interesting for. Heck, they could have had the option of making the Keeper of Secrets look blatantly feminine, but nope. Also, we're making the price $140 just 'cuz.

And then their "make things overpowered, then nerf them into oblivion." Policy means that a character who should be one of the biggest badasses in the setting compares extremely poorly to a generic Daemon Prince of Tzeentch.

And then there's the fact we haven't had a new primarch for 2 years, but that's going off on much more of a tangent.

[Wraith]

Honestly, I'm more than happy for things to be girly. Things can be both girly and cool.

What bugs me is a couple different things.

I beg your pardon, I didn't mean to imply that the two were mutually exclusive, only that GW seems to *think* they are. Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir - I can't recall any member of the GitP board who has disagreed with the same sentiments.

And then there's the fact we haven't had a new Primarch for 2 years, but that's going off on much more of a tangent.

I keep hearing rumours that Psychic Awakening might be the catalyst for just that. The next book features Dark Angels and the last one will feature Space Wolves, and yet more rumours have been suggesting that Lion El'Johnson or Leman Russ might be next... I personally remain sceptical, but I struggle to imagine a better opportunity to tie either one in to a big event and give them a decent launch before 9th edition comes out.

[9mm]

So as my kill team grows, it's slowly becoming big enough to just be a 40k detachment. What's your recommendations for kits to make a jump captain with a two-handed sword?

[Squark]

So as my kill team grows, it's slowly becoming big enough to just be a 40k detachment. What's your recommendations for kits to make a jump captain with a two-handed sword?

Hmm... I'd say start with the Vanguard Veteran or Assault Squad kits. The Vanguard Vets will look more ornate, so they get my recommendation unless you play a rather spartan Chapter. That gives you a body and the jump pack. The Space Marine Commander box and Upgrade sprues are good sources of ornate helmets. The SM commander box also includes an Iron Halo, which every non-Space Wolves Captain should have*. As for the sword... The Assault Squad has an eviscerator (2 handed chainsword), while the Vanguard Vets have a relic blade that is clearly intended to be used in two hands based on the hilt, even if the sword is currently only in one hand. Another possible source of two handed swords is the Grey Knights kit- Basic GK swords are 2 handed weapons. The eviscerator would make a good Teath of Terra, while the relic blade is a good fit for a more generic 2H sword. Finally, you should consider what other weapon your captain uses- a Storm Bolter or Storm Shield is probably the best option. Grey knights come with a wrist mounted storm bolter, which sounds perfect for you, actually.

*SW Captains Wolf Lords Jarls have special belts instead.

[Selpharia]

On the discussion of Sisters as the “for girls” army: I like a lot of the rules for Sisters, to me it seems like they’ll play with an interestingly aggressive style, with a number of reasonably functional options. I do wish Celly were a little better, and I’m not a huge fan of the default Sisters fluff: much like AoS Daughters Of Khaine, it’s a faction of ladies dedicated to worshipping a man, which isn’t a great look. But I’ve played Eldar, Ynnari and some custom Fem!Custodes long enough that I expect to have to add my own queerness and femininity to whatever faction I’m using. For instance, my Order is basically going to be a pain cult masquerading as the Imperial Creed, set up by a bored Haemonculus on a lark.

[Ornithologist]

Huh, For some reason I thought The Daughters of Khaine worshiped Morathi. That is disappointing. Still, that Order concept sounds very entertaining.

[9mm]

Huh, For some reason I thought The Daughters of Khaine worshiped Morathi. That is disappointing. Still, that Order concept sounds very entertaining.

Technically the Daughters of Khaine worship Khaine, the dead god of murder. Its out right stated that Morathri is trying to siphon that worship to become a god.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Played Maelstrom with a buddy last night. It went very well!

Spoiler: My List

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Battalion - Black Legion
Abaddon - 240 (W)
Daemon Prince with Wings; Slaanesh, Delightful Agonies, Intoxicating Elixir, Double-Talons, Warp Bolter - 183

20 x Cultists; Autogun, 2x Heavy Stubber - 104
10 x Cultists; Close Combat, Flamer - 56
10 x Cultists; Close combat, Flamer - 56

8 x Noise Marines; Blastmaster, Sonic Blaster x 6, Combi-plasma, Doom Siren - 183

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

1000 Pts, 10 CP

Spoiler: His List

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Battalion - T'au Sept
Ethereal
Cadre Fireblade

2 x Broadsides - Rail Guns, smart missiles
2 x Broadsides - High-yield missile pods, smart missiles

3 x Stealth Battlesuits

5 x Firewarriors
5 x Firewarriors
5 x Firewarriors

1 x Riptide with a lot of guns

Spoiler: The Game, as She is Played

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Mission: Spoils of War from main rulebook, which allows either person to score an active Secure Objective X card if the conditions are met. Before the game I removed Scour the Skies, Witch Hunter, Big Game Hunter, the Long War, Assassinate, and Psychological Warfare. Deployment was good ol' fashioned 12" from the table edge.

It was a fun game. A very refreshing change from ITC.

Turn 1
I got first turn. Objectives 2, 4, and 6 were close to my deployment zone. One unit of bikers camped behind terrain on the objective, which let me score Secure Objective 4. The other bike squad advanced to get to the stealth suits, camped out in a crater and camping on Objective 5. My Daemon Prince swooped up behind them, chilling behind a column, and cast Delightful Agonies. On my left side, Abaddon was holding down the fort with his cultist blobs who slowly moved out of the DZ. Tau-friend had castled up pretty good on the left, with his Riptide, Broadsides, two firewarrior teams, and Ethereal and Fireblade making a nice support bubble. Only the last Firewarrior team and the Stealth Suits were on my right flank. To that end, the Noise Marines also began their march towards the castle. Shooting was pretty underwhelming - I got one stealth suit out (-1 to hit, plus advancing meant I was hitting on 5s with my combi-bolters and 4s with my warp bolter. Thank god I rolled 13 flamer shots). In retrospect I should have used Veterans of the Long War right away but I usually play Red Corsairs and kept forgetting it was an option. Noise Marines were much more successful - they knocked the Firewarrior squads down to two and one body respectively and put some wounds on the Riptide.

His response was as you'd expect. Abaddon was well shielded which helped to dilute the railgun fire, but the missile pods are able to just roll buckets of dice. He killed one unit of cultists (boo-hoo) and scored First Blood. His firewarriors and Stealth Suits on the right flank shot back at the bikers but thanks to their warding they only lost one man. The noise marines were also the object of ire, taking some hits from the Riptide but managing to save all but one. The ethereal's ability to reroll 1s doesn't help much when you hit on 4s. But Abaddon was having similar issues with the cultists, so it's hardly my place to judge. He scored one of my Secure Objective X cards.

Turn 2
I generated Advance, which was great - the only units in my DZ were bikers. They moved up to unload also into the stealth suits. Abaddon and cultists moved further towards the castle. I had 13 models left in my shooting unit of cultists and the ten-man unit was at full strength, so I decided to risk Tide of Traitors for another turn. My noise marines moved up just a bit, staying out of the 15" rapid fire range (pulse rifles are made to take out marines and they are pretty okay at it). More shooting deleted the two firewarrior squads and put more wounds on the broadsides. First time taking a full unit of Sonic Blasters - they are scary effective. I bought the upgrade pack on a whim, to see if it would fit on the bodies of the new sprue. I only had the new CSM sprue because I wanted to chop and screw my biker squads so they had elements of the new aesthetic. Both investments panned out! This scored me Overwhelming Firepower. The rest of my shooting was a bit underwhelming - cultists did no damage whatsoever (again forgetting to trigger Veterans), and I only did one wound to the stealth suits - the other bike squad was out of range for flamers and although 12 combi-bolter shots is not nothing, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, and saving on 3s means that the stealth suits only took one wound. The firewarriors and stealth suits were withing 6" of each other, so to keep them from double-tapping I charged the firewarriors with the DP and the stealth suit with the bikers. The stealth suits are tough and took another casualty and another wound. The firewarriors were killed to a man.

On Tau-friend's turn, he moved the stealth-suits off to catch another objective, the card for which both he and I had drawn and he was able to score. His Riptide and broadsides worked together to blow up my DP, which despite having cast Delightful Agonies on himself he could not endure. He killed a few more cultists and did a bit more damage to the Noise Marines, who lost 1 to morale. The stealth suits killed another biker and left the last with one wound.

Turn 3
I moved the cultists up to the front of the castle and Abaddon close behind. I used Tide of Traitors to set up the 20-person shooting unit on my right, his left flank, 6" off his table edge. I scored Defend Objective X (don't remember which). Noise marines, now much reduced, took a couple pot shots at the Broadsides but most of it was ineffective. Bikers continued to camp on objectives on the right flank and managed to kill the last stealth suit through shooting. I charged the broadsides with Abaddon, who was out of line of sight, then followed up with the cultists, who were mostly killed by smart missiles. Abaddon killed both broadsides and consolidated into the next unit of broadsides.

On his turn, Tau-friend killed my Noise Marines and scored a Secure Objective X. Music of the Apocalypse was consistently ineffective, except for the Doomsiren. He killed a few more cultists but didn't have many options left. We were running out of time and decided to call it a game.

I won 6-5 - I don't remember every objective we scored so I'm sure the math is a bit different in the write-up.

Overall takeaways: we both had fun and preferred the format to others we had tried - there was an ITC game happening behind us for our local league and I kept looking over my shoulder to compare. I feel like it solved some of the issues I've had with the game - persistent castling, lack of support for close combat, etc. Playing 1000 points was also refreshing - it was a little less lethal and I was always engaged during my opponent's turn (we're both in graduate school and very busy, and once during a 2000 point game I joked that I'll have plenty of time to write my dissertation during his shooting phase). I'd like to experiment with 1250, 1500 points and try and find a sweet spot. Curious also about other people's thoughts and feelings on this.

At the end of the day, we both had fun, and we'll try and find more ways that suits our respective playstyles that allow us to continue to have fun.

[Cheesegear]

On the discussion of Sisters as the “for girls” army: I like a lot of the rules for Sisters, to me it seems like they’ll play with an interestingly aggressive style, with a number of reasonably functional options. I do wish Celly were a little better, and I’m not a huge fan of the default Sisters fluff: much like AoS Daughters Of Khaine, it’s a faction of ladies dedicated to worshipping a man, which isn’t a great look.

I'd hardly call The Emperor 'a man'. But I get it.

I, personally, find more issue with that the reason that Sororitas exist, is because of a technicality/joke. Much in the same way that Salamanders shouldn't actually be the way they are - it's an abnormal mutation - Flesh Tearers recruit from GrimDark Australia, but their recruits' melanin is irrelevant once they get that sweet, sweet melanochrome.

...But hey, they do exist, so what's the problem, right?

ION:
Unrelated to 40K, but related to miniatures, I would like to make this model...

Spoiler

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I'll probably start here...

Spoiler

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I'd really like to use a Dark Elf Executioner as the base model. But no way am I buying an entire box for a single model.

[snowblizz]

That's what I'm told; Women play [...] Daemons (wait, what...).

Because hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

Absolutely not! You will like what the Games Workshop Marketing Department tells you to like and therefore prioritise your purchases accordingly, and that is final.

The GW Marketing Department, the last bastion of [insert favourite historical or current authoritive regime here].

I've been in the hobby since about -98/99 (though after the AoS debacle it's more of a toehold) and always wondered who they are and whose preferences they are actually considering.

[Wraith]

....and whose preferences they are actually considering.

From anecdotes I've heard on the internet and from friends who do or have worked in the industry, the answer seems to be "the GW writing team".

A semi-famous (notorious?) example would be Codex Orks. Through 4th edition, Codex Orks was written by Phil Kelly because.... Well, because they needed a Codex Orks and Phil happened to be in between writing codices at the moment. No one in the office played Orks, no one wanted to play Orks, but the book had to happen. Hence why Orks (4th) was completely forgettable and no one bothered to write another one until 7th edition - no one knew what the hell they were doing (and arguably, still didn't....)

[Requizen]

On the discussion of Sisters as the “for girls” army: I like a lot of the rules for Sisters, to me it seems like they’ll play with an interestingly aggressive style, with a number of reasonably functional options. I do wish Celly were a little better, and I’m not a huge fan of the default Sisters fluff: much like AoS Daughters Of Khaine, it’s a faction of ladies dedicated to worshipping a man, which isn’t a great look.

I do get the sentiment, but I kinda always assume that when people worship a deity the assumed gender of said deity doesn't matter so much as the aspect (unless that aspect is like masculinity/femininity, or something). Unless we're talking about the Greeks, because Zeus.

Either way, Sylvaneth/Wanderers might(?) be a better example then, as they worship Allarielle, though they are not purely female as a faction. Do trees have genders? I guess some of the Revenant spirits look that way.

[Blackhawk748]

A semi-famous (notorious?) example would be Codex Orks. Through 4th edition, Codex Orks was written by Phil Kelly because.... Well, because they needed a Codex Orks and Phil happened to be in between writing codices at the moment. No one in the office played Orks, no one wanted to play Orks, but the book had to happen. Hence why Orks (4th) was completely forgettable and no one bothered to write another one until 7th edition - no one knew what the hell they were doing (and arguably, still didn't....)

The 4th ed Ork Codex was fine. Fairly middle of the Road but it was at least decent. The 7th ed.... dear god that was a dumpster fire.

At least the 8th ed one has some basic understanding of how Orks work barring the weird Grot thing.

Also, around here the few women who play, all play Tyranids and that seems to be consistent with other people I talk to.

[LeSwordfish]

...one of my main female opponents plays tyranids too.

[Wraith]

The 4th ed Ork Codex was fine. Fairly middle of the Road but it was at least decent. The 7th ed.... dear god that was a dumpster fire.

That is pretty much my point. Orks 4th was 'okay', however Phil Kelly also wrote Eldar 4th, Space Wolves 5th, Imperial Guard 3rd and Dark Eldar 5th - y'know, all those other really good codices which defined a faction for years and shifted the meta in ways that we're still reeling from today.

And Orks 4th was just 'okay', because Phil Kelly doesn't play Orks. They got really, really lucky to get 'okay', when the alternative could have been Orks 7th, when Phil Kelly had gone and GW were left with other, less talented people who still didn't play Orks....

[Blackhawk748]

That is pretty much my point. Orks 4th was 'okay', however Phil Kelly also wrote Eldar 4th, Space Wolves 5th, Imperial Guard 3rd and Dark Eldar 5th - y'know, all those other really good codices which defined a faction for years and shifted the meta in ways that we're still reeling from today.

And Orks 4th was just 'okay', because Phil Kelly doesn't play Orks. They got really, really lucky to get 'okay', when the alternative could have been Orks 7th, when Phil Kelly had gone and GW were left with other, less talented people who still didn't play Orks....

Oh God yes, I totally know we got lucky. We could have had a Tyranid Cruddance moment, but Phil seemed to at least understand the basics of how Orks worked, and Mob Rule was (and still is) our standard by which we measure stuff.

Hell, that was one of the reasons the 7th Codex was disliked from the outset. Mob Rule was garbage. Plus the Initiative loss from the Furious Charge Nerf. That hurt too.

In any event, yes, Orks weren't nuts, but they were also a bit late to the party, and 5th was mean to everyone who wasn't Marines (and that one Guard list) and by 6 the Orks were too old to hang on by anything more than our Deff Guns.

It's been a rough decade

[LansXero]

Which is insane because what color or shape of plastic toys your employees like has no bearing on the products put out by a multi-million company like GW. Or shouldn't, at any rate.

[Blackhawk748]

Which is insane because what color or shape of plastic toys your employees like has no bearing on the products put out by a multi-million company like GW. Or shouldn't, at any rate.

You'd think, but it's been that way for pretty much ever. It's why certain factions just sort of... Lay there. Someone needs to actually care, and I'm pretty sure the studio has a heavy Guard, Space Marine and Eldar bias, with maybe some Chaos Daemons and Death Guard, but they're less consistent so it's hard to say.

[Wraith]

It makes a certain amount of sense. You want your codex to be good in order to make people want to buy it, and a simple way of making the codex good is by having it written by someone who knows what they're doing. Someone who plays the army and understands what they're trying to achieve with it makes an ideal candidate - they are both the expert and the target audience, so you know that their heart is in the same place as their head.

GW's failing is that their writers don't have enough variety as hobbyists. That's why Phil Kelly wrote for 8 or 9 different factions in his time with the company - because everyone else was busy playing (presumably) Space Marines of one flavour or another. They didn't have a target audience to tell them what the armies needed, and they didn't have an expert to know how to achieve that, so they instead got someone to grind out whatever they thought sounded more or less right.

Sometimes it worked and you got Orks 4th. Other times it didn't and you got Tyranids 5th. Sometimes you would get someone who thought they knew how to do it but missed the nuance and eventually were just throwing the biggest numbers at their favourite toys - Matt Ward. GW really ought to be in the position to tell a writer: You're doing Tyranids next, go read forums and play a hundred hours of games until you find out what makes Tyranids really good and give it to them; that they didn't do that was characteristic of their mismanagement and reliance on the marketing team making the decisions, not the creative team.

[LansXero]

It makes a certain amount of sense. You want your codex to be good in order to make people want to buy it, and a simple way of making the codex good is by having it written by someone who knows what they're doing. Someone who plays the army and understands what they're trying to achieve with it makes an ideal candidate - they are both the expert and the target audience, so you know that their heart is in the same place as their head.

GW's failing is that their writers don't have enough variety as hobbyists. That's why Phil Kelly wrote for 8 or 9 different factions in his time with the company - because everyone else was busy playing (presumably) Space Marines of one flavour or another. They didn't have a target audience to tell them what the armies needed, and they didn't have an expert to know how to achieve that, so they instead got someone to grind out whatever they thought sounded more or less right.

Sometimes it worked and you got Orks 4th. Other times it didn't and you got Tyranids 5th. Sometimes you would get someone who thought they knew how to do it but missed the nuance and eventually were just throwing the biggest numbers at their favourite toys - Matt Ward. GW really ought to be in the position to tell a writer: You're doing Tyranids next, go read forums and play a hundred hours of games until you find out what makes Tyranids really good and give it to them; that they didn't do that was characteristic of their mismanagement and reliance on the marketing team making the decisions, not the creative team.

Yeah no, whatever they do on their fun time should have no bearing on what they put out for sale. I hate Catan yet have to promote it because its a very popular gateway game and has a lot of buzz behind. This isnt some clubhouse, they're supposed to be professionals doing a paid job for a company.

But then it'd take a design document, clear literature on how mechanics interact with each other and actual professional rules design work. None of which are a thing for them apparently.