3.5 Slowing Down the Tier 1-2's

[johnbragg]

edited for renaming the classes to Spellmaster, Warrior-Pseudocleric, Pseudocleric-Adept

I'm trying to come up with a short (1-2 page) fix for Core. I'm not saying that the splatbooks are less balanced than Core, I'm saying that Core is the common language of D&D roleplaying.

So around what tiers are my arcane fix and divine fixes at? I think these classes could fit comfortably in a party with fighters and barbarians and rogues without overshadowing the mundanes. (There will be a lot less magic buffing than everyone's used to--you can't nerf the casters without losing buffs)

Clerics are tier 1 because they are first-class spellcasters and first-class melee fighters at the same time. So make a choice: be either a Warrior-Pseudocleric or a Pseudocleric-Adept. Either way, you get Divine Spells.

Pseudocleric Divine Spells:
You get 1 Domain spell per day, plus Wisdom bonus spells, for every spell level you can cast. Domain powers go along with the spells.
At 1st level you can cast 1st level spells, and you gain a new spell level every two levels.
You have access to four domains appropriate to your deity. Anyone can have Healing.
You have to pray daily to receive these spells from your deity, but you cast spontaneously.

Warrior-Pseudocleric.
Based on Warrior NPC class: Full BAB, d8 hit dice, good Fort save. All weapons & armor.
Cleric abilities: Turn/Rebuke Undead, Pseudocleric divine spells and granted powers from 4 domains.

Pseudocleric-Adept.
Based on Adept NPC class. ½ BAB, d6 hit dice, good Will save. Simple weapons, no armor.
Adept: You have the spell list and spells per day of an Adept, as described in the SRD.
Cleric abilities: Turn/Rebuke Undead, Pseudocleric divine spells and granted powers from 4 domains.
Bonus spells for high Wisdom can be cast either from the Adept list or from your domain spells.
You also have the ability to use 3 0-level adept spells at will, excluding Cure Minor Wounds
(Cantrips/orizons at will gives the low-level Adept something to do after casting a few spells).
Spell progression looks like

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1 1+1
2 1+1
3 2+1 0+1
4 2+1 0+1
5 2+1 1+1 0+1
6 2+1 1+1 0+1
7 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1
8 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1
9 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1
10 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1
11 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
12 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
13 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
14 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
15 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
16 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
17 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
18 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
19 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
20 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1

What to do about Druids?

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I don’t see any way that a guy who wildshapes into a bear who rides a Dire Bear and summons bears isn’t Tier 1-2, isn’t way better than the Warrior-Cleric or the Cleric-Adept, and isn’t better than the Arcane Caster below. So if you want to wildshape, hello Wildshape Variant Ranger.
Druid and Adept is a bad mixture—of the Adepts’ 17 first-level spells, only 3 are Druid spells. We could let the Druid-Adept cast from the Druid list using the Adept spell progression plus one Divine Spell per spell level. But at high levels, that makes the Druid-Adept either the most or the least versatile divine caster, with either only one “domain” spell (Summon Nature’s Ally) for each level, or the entire Druid spell list.

Druid-Adept
Based on Adept NPC class. ½ BAB, d6 hit dice, good Will save. Simple weapons, no armor.
(This could be tweaked to allow the traditional D&D Druid’s weapons and armor)
Spell list: As PHB Druid
Spells per day: As DMG Adept, plus Divine Spells, plus bonus spells for Wisdom.
Spells known: As PHB Sorcerer, plus Summon Nature’s Ally for every spell level.
A Druid-Adept is a spontaneous caster, and may use any spell he knows for his Divine Spells.

Spellmaster

I need to start over with the Spellmaster.

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Spellmasters spend Power Points to cast spells. (Base 2 PP/CL per day).
Spells have a base cost of 2^SL, modified by Spellcraft discount—for every 10 on your Spellcraft check, drop the cost by 1 PP. (So before too long, first level spells are free).
You spontaneously cast (INT bonus)*CL spell levels worth of spells.
You can spend PP to memorize other spells from your spell book.
To cast high level spells, you need to be high enough level AND either spend multiple days or have cooperating Spellmasters to supply the Power Points. (5th level spells have a base cost of 32PP, a 9th level caster has a base of 18 PP).

I still haven't decided what happens if you’re almost out of PP, and cast anyway hoping for a good roll. Failure = spell fails? Temporary ability score damage? (d6 Con per PP?)

I'm also not sure about arcane metamagic: Anything but +0 SL and +1SL on 0th and 1st level spells is way too expensive. Does that need fixing, or is that part of making high-level magic hard to access?

Further details and explanation for my Arcane CasterSpellmasters: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306459

[Cheiromancer]

The easiest way of slowing down a high tier character is to require multi-classing.

For instance, make a wizard take one off-level by level 10, and two more by level 20. She'll get 9th level spells at level 20 as a capstone, so that is fine. The off-levels could even be prestige classes that sacrifice caster level.

It doesn't change the relative rankings much: high level wizards are still more effective than high level rogues, but it masks the differences.

My concern about your proposed fix is that it over-corrects. A party of level N will not be able to overcome an EL N encounter if its spellcasters do not have access to fairly high levels of power.

[johnbragg]

My concern about your proposed fix is that it over-corrects. A party of level N will not be able to overcome an EL N encounter if its spellcasters do not have access to fairly high levels of power.

I'm okay with that--I'm aiming for spellcasters that can adventure with rogues, barbarians and fighters without overshadowing the mundanes. That means that CRs that assume Tier 1 spellcasters (and Tier 1 buffs on the Tier 3-4-5s) will need adjusting.

[Cheiromancer]

I'm okay with that--I'm aiming for spellcasters that can adventure with rogues, barbarians and fighters without overshadowing the mundanes. That means that CRs that assume Tier 1 spellcasters (and Tier 1 buffs on the Tier 3-4-5s) will need adjusting.

I wonder if just banning the tier 1 and tier 2 classes might be sufficient. If a character wants to be a spellcaster, they can play a bard, beguiler or dread necromancer. Or whatever.

I don't really understand your mechanics for arcane casters. Am I right that 9th level spells cost 512 pp to cast? (minus a few for the spellcraft discount) Is that intended? Of course a wizard can spam unlimited number of 1st level spells. I don't know if that would be fun, or boring. The changes seem so drastic it amounts to replacing the wizard with a totally different class that happens to share its old name. One with untested mechanics.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A fighter 20 has a will save of +6 (without other bonuses - it usually is around +12 with bonuses). The first level spell charm person has a DC of 11+intelligence modifier for the wizard.



So a wizard has a good chance of not only beating but gaining the fighter as an ally with a single 1st level spell.

[johnbragg]

[QUOTE=Cheiromancer;16160280]I wonder if just banning the tier 1 and tier 2 classes might be sufficient. If a character wants to be a spellcaster, they can play a bard, beguiler or dread necromancer. Or whatever.

I don't really understand your mechanics for arcane casters. Am I right that 9th level spells cost 512 pp to cast? (minus a few for the spellcraft discount) Is that intended? Of course a wizard can spam unlimited number of 1st level spells.

Yes, that's the tradeoff. High level spells can't be cast spur of the moment--you need to spend days sinking Power Points into it. The tradeoff is that you can cast low level spells indefinitely.

I don't know if that would be fun, or boring.

I think people who like playing wizards would find it fun, figuring out what they could do with unlimited first level spells and cheap second level spells, and occasional third level spells.

The changes seem so drastic it amounts to replacing the wizard with a totally different class that happens to share its old name. One with untested mechanics.

Yes, it's that.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

No, they wouldn't. They'd play a warlock or binder who get unlimited mid-level magic effects without being broken.



Your system will become very boring, very fast because casters aren't going to improve. Having access to effectively the same abilities over 20 levels is not worth playing a class, period.

[johnbragg]

No, they wouldn't. They'd play a warlock or binder who get unlimited mid-level magic effects without being broken.

You might be right. This is why I ask.

Your system will become very boring, very fast because casters aren't going to improve. Having access to effectively the same abilities over 20 levels is not worth playing a class, period.

The improvement also comes in spells known--an Arcane Caster with 18 Int knows 20 spell levels worth of spells at level 5, 40 at level 10, 80 at level 20.
That means you have the option of having any 1st level spell with a duration active at all times, at least while you're awake and if you remember to recast it. And any 1st level spell at will, if you put it on your "Spells Mastered" list.

Is the right name for this class the Spellmaster?

There's also gradual improvement, in that 3rd and 4th level spells become a possible option as you go up in Power Points. But a lot later than the PHB wizard, or the divine casters. But it's still a major investment for the Arcane Caster 20 to cast a 4th level spell, and more than half his power points to cast a 5th level spell.



And the fighters are still failing Will saves to first-level "I win" spells like Sleep and Charm Person.

[johnbragg]

Let's build a level 10 and level 20 Spellmaster, and see what we think. Maybe the class is too weak to play. Maybe I will recoil in horror at building a baby Pun-Pun out of at-will 1st level spells.

Let's start the Spellmaster at 18 Int at 1st level, and just handwave that he spends his ability score increases to increase Con 13, Dex 13 and Cha 13 to 14 at 4, 8, and 12, and boosts Int to 19 at 16 and to 20 at 20.

So 1st level, he Masters 4 1st level spells and has 3 Power Points. (2 + 1 Cha)
His Spellcraft is 11 (4 ranks + 4 Int + 3 Skill Focus) So his cantrips are free, his first level spells are free on a roll of 9 or better, so 60% of the time.
1st level: 4 1st, 3 PP, Spellcraft 11.

2nd level, he has Mastered 8 1st level spells, has 5 Power Points. Spellcraft 14 (+1 rank, +2 synergy from 5 ranks Knowledge Arcana). First level spells are free 70% of the time. 2nd level: 8 1st. 5 PP. Spellcraft 14.

3rd level. 8 1st, 2 2nd, 7 PP. Spellcraft 15. 2nd level spells cost 1-3 PP, average 3 a day.

4th level. 8 1st level, 4 2nd level, 9 PP. Spellcraft 16.

5th level. 8 1st level, 4 2nd level, 1 3rd level, 1 SL open, 11 PP. Spellcraft 17.
PP buys 1 3rd level spell, or probably 5 2nd level spells.

6th level. 8 1st level, 5 2nd level, 2 3rd level. 13 PP. Spellcraft 18
1st level spells cost PP only on a 1. 2nd level spells usually cost 1-2 points, 3rd level spells cost 5-6 points. So 2 3rd level spells per day or maybe 7 or 8 2nd level spells.

7th level. Spellcraft 19--1st level spells are now at-will, no roll required.
So instead of 1 4th level spell, Master 4 new 1st level spells.
Spellmaster 7. 12 1st level, 5 2nd level, 2 3rd level. 15 PP, Spellcraft 19.
You can now have Mage Armor, Shield, Expeditious Retreat and Unseen Servant active all day--just cast them once every 7 minutes or 7 hours. Plus 8 more 1st level spells at will. And you still have 15 PP to spend on 2 3rd level or ~10 2nd level spells.

8th level. Add 1 3rd level spell, save one spell level.
9th level. Add 1 3rd and one 2nd level spell.
10th level. Add 2 more 2nd level spells.

Spellmaster 10. 12 1st, 9 2nd, 4 3rd. Spellcraft 22, 21 PP.
2nd level spells cost 1-2, 3rd level spells 5-6. 4th level spells could now be an option, costing 13-14 PP.

1st level spells "always on": Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Unseen Servant
1st level spells "at will" Feather Fall, MAgic Missile, Burning Hands, True Strike, Charm Person, Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd level spells: Protection from Arrows (10 hours), Invisibility, Acid Arrow, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image. (I didn't spend much time picking the second-level spells)
3rd level spells: Dispel Magic, Fly, Fireball, Haste

Open combat with Haste and Dispel Magic, blowing about 11 PP out of 21.

That's not the traditional Vancian D&D wizard, but it's pretty scary.

[johnbragg]

No, they wouldn't. They'd play a warlock or binder who get unlimited mid-level magic effects without being broken.

Actually, I don't see that as a huge problem. People who know those classes and the tier system a lot better than I do have classed them as tier 3 or below, which is what I'm aiming for with my replacements for Cleric, Druid, and Wizard/Sorcerer.

Your system will become very boring, very fast because casters aren't going to improve. Having access to effectively the same abilities over 20 levels is not worth playing a class, period.

Every level, you add your Int bonus worth of Spells Mastered. That means you have a real increase in what you can do every level. You don't get more powerful abilities as fast as most casting classes who get and can actually use a new spell level every other level, but you get new stuff. And you do eventually get to use more powerful abilities, either through item crafting (which you can do by casting the spell over multiple days, or with the support of other Spellmasters) or just very slowly, where a 4th level spell is worth adding to your Spells Mastered list around 10th level, where it won't take ALL your Power Points for the day.

I feel comfortable that the Spellmaster 10 in the last post is a very solid character. I'll start using Spoiler tags to sketch out Spellmasters at different caster levels.

[johnbragg]

I'm going to build a Spellmaster and progress him through levels.

1st level Spellmaster. S 8, D 13, C 13, I 18, W 10, Ch 13.
Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Magical Aptitude
Power Points: 3 (SL*2 + 1 CHA). Spell Mastery: 4 spell levels (Int +4 * CL 1). Spellcraft 13.
4 ranks each in Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana
Spellcraft 13 from 4 ranks + 3 (Skill Focus: Spellcraft) + 2 (Magical Aptitude) + 4 (Int).
With a Spellcraft bonus of 13, Cantrips (DC 10 to cast for free) are automatic, 1st level spells (DC 20) are free on a d20 roll of 7 or better (70%), on a roll of 1-6 (14-19) they cost 1 PP.
Spells Mastered: 8 cantrips (Int bonus *2), 4 1st
0: Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sounds, Dancing Lights, Light
1: Magic Missile, Sleep, Charm Person, Mage Armor
Other spells in spell book, must be prepared. He can add spells to spell book and memorize them, but cannot Master more at 1st level.

I'm not sure about allowing Spellmasters to memorize and cast spells. But non-spontaneous casting is necessary for high level spells to be available at all. Maybe Vancian casting is off the table, but they can use Scribe Scroll? Takes more time, costs money. Maybe bring back the 2nd edition rule that your Int governed how many spells per level your spellbook could have?

2nd level Spellmaster. Power Points 5, Spell Mastery: 8 SL. Spellcraft 16.

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5 ranks in Knowledge Arcana means a +2 synergy boost to Spellcraft.
1: Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant Magic Missile, Sleep, Charm Person, Mage Armor
0: Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light

3rd level Spellmaster. PP 7, Spell Mastery: 12 SL. Spellcraft 17. Add 2 2nd level spells.

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New Feat: Silent Spell. Hello, silent cantrip shenanigans.
2: Invisibility, Web.
1: Add Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Magic Missile, Sleep, Charm Person, Mage Armor
0: Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light
1st level spells are close to free, costing 1 PP only on a roll of 1-2. 2nd level spells cost 1 point on a roll of 13 or better, 2 points on 3-12, 3 points on 1-2.

4th level Spellmaster. PP 9, Spell Mastery: 16 SL. Spellcraft 18.

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Ability score increase: Con 14. More hit points, please.
2: Invisibility, Web, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray
1: Add Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Magic Missile, Sleep, Charm Person, Mage Armor
0: Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light

5th level Spellmaster. PP 11, Spell Mastery: 20SL. Spellcraft 19. Add 1 3rd level spell, 1 1st.
3: Fly
2: Invisibility, Web, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray
1: Shield, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Magic Missile, Sleep, Charm Person, Mage Armor
0: Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light
With Spellcraft 19, 1st level spells are now at-will. Mage Armor is always on. Shield is always on. Unseen Servant is always active. Character could actually trade in Fly for Feather Fall, True STrike and Floating Disk.

[paddyfool]

The easiest way of slowing down a high tier character is to require multi-classing.

For instance, make a wizard take one off-level by level 10, and two more by level 20. She'll get 9th level spells at level 20 as a capstone, so that is fine. The off-levels could even be prestige classes that sacrifice caster level.

It doesn't change the relative rankings much: high level wizards are still more effective than high level rogues, but it masks the differences.

A little similar to, but probably more elegant than my prior proposed fix (having all full casting classes be prestige classes which could only be entered at a level that meant you'd get level 9 spells at level 20, i.e. level 3 for Sorcerors, or level 4 for Wizards, Druids and Clerics; you could either have some arbitrary skill level requirement in Knowledge (whatever) and/or Concentration to enable this, or simply make it a straight-up class level requirement).

[Gnomes2169]

The easiest way of slowing down a high tier character is to require multi-classing.

For instance, make a wizard take one off-level by level 10, and two more by level 20. She'll get 9th level spells at level 20 as a capstone, so that is fine. The off-levels could even be prestige classes that sacrifice caster level.

It doesn't change the relative rankings much: high level wizards are still more effective than high level rogues, but it masks the differences.

My concern about your proposed fix is that it over-corrects. A party of level N will not be able to overcome an EL N encounter if its spellcasters do not have access to fairly high levels of power.

Well, requiring off-leveling might be a little less effective than you're thinking here... currently playing with a party member that's basically going to be multi-classing to the point that he only gets level 9 cleric spells at level 20. Thing is, he'll also have level 8 Arcane spells, and the instant he GETS level 9 spells, he can have up to 5 prepared a day. So while it slows him down for three levels... the multi-classing won't actually stop him from getting the most powerful spells possible, and he'll get a busload of them. Maybe if it was a 3:2 caster:non caster ratio it would actually be a restriction and actually balance out the power a little bit, but as it stands just losing three levels of caster from multiclassing... really won't slow down or stop a properly built caster. :/

[Cheiromancer]

Well, requiring off-leveling might be a little less effective than you're thinking here... currently playing with a party member that's basically going to be multi-classing to the point that he only gets level 9 cleric spells at level 20. Thing is, he'll also have level 8 Arcane spells, and the instant he GETS level 9 spells, he can have up to 5 prepared a day. So while it slows him down for three levels... the multi-classing won't actually stop him from getting the most powerful spells possible, and he'll get a busload of them. Maybe if it was a 3:2 caster:non caster ratio it would actually be a restriction and actually balance out the power a little bit, but as it stands just losing three levels of caster from multiclassing... really won't slow down or stop a properly built caster. :/

Level 20 is pretty much the end point of the campaign, given how wonky the epic level rules are. If a character is broken at 20th level, that's fine; he can show off in one last epic boss-fight and then the campaign is over.

If you make the dead levels *really* dead levels (i.e., not advancing any spellcasting or manifesting at all) then it will slow down a caster by exactly 3 levels. You might want to make the dead levels come earlier and more regular; one by level 7, another by level 13, and the last by level 19.

If this rule is introduced, it should not be presented as a challenge to players. They'll still be able to make a broken character. What it does is make it less likely for the game to be broken by accident. Characters will also have more options. After all, a power-gamer will probably not want to waste the dead levels, and so will get a little competency in an area other than spellcasting. And that means he'll have something useful and fun to do than break the game with magic.

[erikun]

So, um, your Warrior-Pseudocleric has access to 9th level spells at level 17, no restrictions beyond being limited to the spell lists of four domains. Meanwhile, your Pseudocleric-Adept is limited to 6th level spells, with apparently a single 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell after that? Or do Pseudocleric-Adepts get bonus higher level spells based off Wisdom as well?

[johnbragg]

So, um, your Warrior-Pseudocleric has access to 9th level spells at level 17, no restrictions beyond being limited to the spell lists of four domains.

Not the lists of four domains, the domain spells of four domains. He gets 1 9th level spell per day, from a menu of 4 spells. The idea is he's a warrior blessed by his deity for his devotion, so he gets a handful of flashy Blessings of (Deity's Name Here). There's no bigger blessing than not dying, so just about everybody takes Healing.


The Warrior-Pseudocleric has an incredibly limited selection of spells--4 spells per spell level, based on what Domains he takes.

The 20th level Pseudocleric-Warrior gets 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th , 1 8th, 1 9th plus wisdom bonus spells.

So a Warrior-Pseudocleric of Lawful Goodness and Light would have domains like Healing, Good, LAw and Protection. That makes his 9th level spells Summon Monster IX(Good), Mass Heal(Healing), Summon Monster IX(Law), and Prismatic Sphere(Protection). Player can appeal to the DM to swap out one of the Summon Monster IX for something else deity-appropriate, or just take the Sun domain at character creation and get--Prismatic Sphere, never mind.

Meanwhile, your Pseudocleric-Adept is limited to 6th level spells, with apparently a single 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell after that? Or do Pseudocleric-Adepts get bonus higher level spells based off Wisdom as well?

Pseudocleric-Adept gets the regular Adept spells, which cap out at 5th level.

Plus the same package as the Warrior-Pseudocleric gets: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th , 1 8th, 1 9th plus wisdom bonus spells, choose four Domains appropriate to your deity.

If they have the Wisdom to get 6-7-8-9 level bonus spells, I suppose they get them as extra Domain spells.

[Gnomes2169]

Level 20 is pretty much the end point of the campaign, given how wonky the epic level rules are. If a character is broken at 20th level, that's fine; he can show off in one last epic boss-fight and then the campaign is over.

If you make the dead levels *really* dead levels (i.e., not advancing any spellcasting or manifesting at all) then it will slow down a caster by exactly 3 levels. You might want to make the dead levels come earlier and more regular; one by level 7, another by level 13, and the last by level 19.

If this rule is introduced, it should not be presented as a challenge to players. They'll still be able to make a broken character. What it does is make it less likely for the game to be broken by accident. Characters will also have more options. After all, a power-gamer will probably not want to waste the dead levels, and so will get a little competency in an area other than spellcasting. And that means he'll have something useful and fun to do than break the game with magic.

Thing is, we are going epic... so the DM gave us non-casters a way to keep up called "Aether" influence where we basically just start to embody an aspect of the universe... (life, death, change, order, energy, matter, void, hate, fear, valor, etc, etc) But that's beside the point. The point was that mages/ clerics/ Psions/ Druids/ etc do NOT need level 9 spells to be OP, and can easily pull nasty stunts without 1-shoting BBEG and hopelessly overpowering all martial classes forever. Even access to level 6 spells will put you leaps and bounds above people with no spells, after all, and the DM won't have to break things so that mundanes can keep up.

[archon1212]

Thing is, we are going epic... so the DM gave us non-casters a way to keep up called "Aether" influence where we basically just start to embody an aspect of the universe... (life, death, change, order, energy, matter, void, hate, fear, valor, etc, etc) But that's beside the point. The point was that mages/ clerics/ Psions/ Druids/ etc do NOT need level 9 spells to be OP, and can easily pull nasty stunts without 1-shoting BBEG and hopelessly overpowering all martial classes forever. Even access to level 6 spells will put you leaps and bounds above people with no spells, after all, and the DM won't have to break things so that mundanes can keep up.

Yeah, that was my general view of it too. no matter what, magic is better than no magic. Nerfs to casters make them unfun (by limiting choice massivly) long before they make them unbroken. A better solution is to bring the weaker classes up (not to tier 1-2, but to tier 3). that seems to be the typical opinion. You can do casting at tier three with the spontaneus specialist model (beguiler, dread necromancer etc.), but i'm not sure that these fixes produce fun classes (which involve versitilty and choice as much as power).

[nonsi]

.
You can't really tone down spellcasters w/o dealing with the problematic spells or w/o dealing with their superior action economy.

Apply the following changes and you'll go a long way in narrowing the gap between fullcasters and noncasters.




General rules:
1. Eliminate Quicken Spell feat. Swift action casting should be limited to spells w/ Casting Time = swift action.
2. No more than a single metamagic per casting.
This alone takes care of a lot of the action economy and minmax power abuse issues.



Omit the following spells:
- All spells that grant feats, skill ranks, skill tricks or class abilities: spells don’t grant temporary training of any sort.
- Celerity and derivatives
- Divine Power, Transformation and any other spell or power that elevates BAB.
- Glibness: somebody went a bit overboard on that one.
- Genesis: The game can do just fine w/o mortals being able to create realities.
- Rope Trick: Tearing a hole in the fabric of space to another dimension via a 2nd level spell. C'mon. 5th SL maybe. Maybe.


Apply the following changes:
- Explosive Runes: Only one set of runes explodes at a given time. The ambient smoke and flashes prevent the option of reading anything in the area for 1 round.
- Forcecage: This spell is modified so that it allows a Ref save to negate, but you must be able move out of the area of effect as an immediate action (you basically "ride the effect" just before the forcecage fully materializes around you).
- Gate: The option of "Calling Creatures" to fight for you is cancelled.
- Minor/Major/True Creation: Can't create material costing more than [10gp * spell level * CL] with a single casting of the spell. Also, Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Poisons and similar materials (alchemical or otherwise) cannot be created via this spell.
- Polymorph: Use the PF version.
- Polymorph Any Object: You may polymorph living creatures into other living creatures, plants into other plants or objects into other objects. You cannot polymorph a target from one category into another. (Writer's note: not every Disney movie scene has to be a possibility in RPG). Maximum durations equal to 1 month / CL. The spell cannot increase a target creature's mental ability scores. If HD increase is intended, they cannot exceed the target's HD by more than 10, nor can they exceed the caster's CL by more than 5. If no HD increase is attempted, the caster's CL is not taken into account.
- Power Word _________: All Power Word spells ignore HP altogether. Instead, they're defined as swift action spells that provoke a save. Motivation: Power Word spells are either very powerful or completely useless (bad either way).
- Prismatic Wall/Sphere: The caster is not immune to the effects of his own wall/sphere.
- Protection From Arrows: This spell grants the caster a deflection bonus to AC vs. range weapons. This bonus is equal to the caster level for projectile weapons (sling stones, bows, crossbows), and 1/2 this value (round down) against thrown weapons such as spears. Giant-thrown rocks and siege weaponry is not affected by this spell.
- Shapechange: The ability to change into objects (including Constructs) is omitted. Furthermore, HD and CR cap = CL.
- Solid Fog: Any creature attempting to move through it must make a DC 20 strength check. If successful, the creature can move up to half its speed in a straight line; if it moves less than its allowed distance, it may make another strength check to move in another direction. If unsuccessful, the creature can move 5' in any direction, ending its move action.
- Time Stop: Instead of hasting the Mage to ridiculous speed, this spell has an AoE of 40' radius sphere centered on the caster with no save (the effect doesn't move with the caster). This makes sense of some creatures (especially divine entities) being immune to TimeStop. While the effect is active, only personal range spells can be cast. This prevents abuse such as dropping a forcecage on someone and then filling their cell with lava.
- Transmute Rock to Mud: Any creature attempting to move through it must make a strength-check. For every 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10, the creature can move 5’ (up to a maximum of half its speed).
- True Seeing: Make opposed CL checks when trying to see through any spell from the Illusion school of equal or higher level (you receive a +4 to you check). A successful check reveals the illusion for what it is, whereas a failed check fails to penetrate the illusion for the duration of True Seeing.
- Wall of Iron: As written, this spell will single-handedly make you rich and ruin local economies. Therefore, any part of the wall that's removed disappears.
- Wail of the Banshee: Emanates from the caster's mouth (ZERO-range) and affects everybody within the AoE except the caster. The spell doesn't differentiate between friend and foe and Evasion is inapplicable.
- Waves of Exhaustion: Allows Fort save for Fatigues status rather than exhausted (unless a target is already fatigued, in which case no save is allowed).
- Waves of Fatigue: Allows Fort save to negate.
- Wind Wall: Imposes only a -4 penalty to ranged attacks that go through it, like severe wind.
- Wish: The option to instantly create magical items is removed from the things that Wish can do. That one always takes time and the usual chances for success/failure (see the "Redefining Magical Items' Creation" spoiler below). Only deities could do that (if at all) – through means that the rules purposefully don't specify.

[paddyfool]

Holy thread necro, batman.

[Cosi]

Yeah, that was my general view of it too. no matter what, magic is better than no magic. Nerfs to casters make them unfun (by limiting choice massivly) long before they make them unbroken. A better solution is to bring the weaker classes up (not to tier 1-2, but to tier 3). that seems to be the typical opinion. You can do casting at tier three with the spontaneus specialist model (beguiler, dread necromancer etc.), but i'm not sure that these fixes produce fun classes (which involve versitilty and choice as much as power).

This. You really can't drag the Wizard down to the Fighter (note: specifically Fighter, not Warblade) without making it suck to play. You need to move the Fighter up at least a little. I suggest the following changes for a quick and dirty fix:

1. All martial classes Gestalt with Warblade. They may swap the Warblade's disciplines around for others of their choice.
2. Arcane Spellcasters all have the Sorcerer spells/day progression. They know all Core spells of three schools of their choice (Conjuration, Transmutation, Necromancy count double) and non-core spells from those schools as a Sorcerer.
3. Divine Spellcasters use the Spontaneous Divination variant from Unearthed Arcana, except they also know all spells on the Healer's spell list.
4. Ban specific problems (planar binding, DMM, polymorph, Shadowcraft Mage).

1. Eliminate Quicken Spell feat. Swift action casting should be limited to spells w/ Casting Time = swift action.

What? There's no case where you want to do that. If you have metamagic reducers, Persist is a bigger problem than Quicken. If you don't have metamagic reducers, only Invisible, Sculpt, and Extend are worth using.

- Rope Trick: Tearing a hole in the fabric of space to another dimension via a 2nd level spell. C'mon. 5th SL maybe. Maybe.

I don't think determining spell level by spell concept is good. summon monster has exactly the same fluff at every level, but it does mechanically different things.

- Gate: The option of "Calling Creatures" to fight for you is cancelled.

Too specific. Superior rules include "No Minions", "No Minions (w/ short whitelist)", and "Only Leadership, but refluffed".

- Minor/Major/True Creation: Can't create material costing more than [10gp * spell level * CL] with a single casting of the spell. Also, Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Poisons and similar materials (alchemical or otherwise) cannot be created via this spell.

Makes using the spells normally suck (because you can't do anything cool), but doesn't make using shadow conjuration with them balanced. Hyrdrogen is cheap, but making a block of solid Hydrogen in combat is broken beyond words.

- Shapechange: The ability to change into objects (including Constructs) is omitted. Furthermore, HD and CR cap = CL.

Need to patch ability acquisition.

- Solid Fog: Any creature attempting to move through it must make a DC 20 strength check. If successful, the creature can move up to half its speed in a straight line; if it moves less than its allowed distance, it may make another strength check to move in another direction. If unsuccessful, the creature can move 5' in any direction, ending its move action.

Nerfs to specific instances of common effects (i.e. BFC) are bad. The replacement effect to solid fog is still probably too good if you consider solid fog too good, so you need a more general nerf.

- Wish: The option to instantly create magical items is removed from the things that Wish can do. That one always takes time and the usual chances for success/failure (see the "Redefining Magical Items' Creation" spoiler below). Only deities could do that (if at all) – through means that the rules purposefully don't specify.

This solution to wish is bad. Good solutions include "No Time Cost, Full XP Cost" and "GP Cap". This just makes the spell boring. At least remove the XP cost.

[tsj]

My proposed solution :

Creating all classes available to players using
the trisociate class and
ban the following for use by players...

tensers transformation and all magic mentioned in this thread :)

[nonsi]

What? There's no case where you want to do that. If you have metamagic reducers, Persist is a bigger problem than Quicken. If you don't have metamagic reducers, only Invisible, Sculpt, and Extend are worth using.

Once Divine Power, Transformation and the other BAB elevators are out of the equation, Persist is no longer an issue.
Removing Quicken takes away a lot of the action economy abuse out of the hands of spellcasters.

I don't think determining spell level by spell concept is good. summon monster has exactly the same fluff at every level, but it does mechanically different things.

It's not just that. The spell obviously grants a disproportional advantage.

Too specific. Superior rules include "No Minions", "No Minions (w/ short whitelist)", and "Only Leadership, but refluffed".

Not specific at all. This is a totally comprehensive no-minions rule. Summoning a Balor / Pit Fiend / Solar is no longer an option.

Makes using the spells normally suck (because you can't do anything cool), but doesn't make using shadow conjuration with them balanced. Hyrdrogen is cheap, but making a block of solid Hydrogen in combat is broken beyond words.

AFAIK, Hydrogen is not available (or even exists for that matter) in fantasy.

Need to patch ability acquisition.

I'm less concerned with ability enhancements.

This reminds me that I forgot to mention banning of Natural Spell (among the top 5 balancing rules).

Nerfs to specific instances of common effects (i.e. BFC) are bad. The replacement effect to solid fog is still probably too good if you consider solid fog too good, so you need a more general nerf.

I'm not aware of any general rule that the spell is part of.

This solution to wish is bad. Good solutions include "No Time Cost, Full XP Cost" and "GP Cap". This just makes the spell boring. At least remove the XP cost.

I see no justification whatsoever to allow mortals creation of magic items on-the-fly. This worsens the "Christmas Tree" syndrome.
If by the time players gain access to Wish they can't do w/o on-the-fly magical gear, then serves them right for getting shafted.

[Cosi]

Once Divine Power, Transformation and the other BAB elevators are out of the equation, Persist is no longer an issue.

swift fly and friends, greater mirror image, arcane spellsurge, high level invisibility variants. Telling people they can't have divine power is likely to make people abusing Persist Spell better because they will spend less time pretending to be Fighters (an enterprise that is a waste of everyone's time). Even if you do want to gish it up, wraithstrike is better than divine power in most cases. sadism too if you have some source of first-round damage.

Removing Quicken takes away a lot of the action economy abuse out of the hands of spellcasters.

Not really. At +4 levels, Quicken is the suck, and Metamagic Effect doesn't work with Quicken. DMM is a decent choice, but only if you let people use Nightsticks. It's almost certainly worse than arcane spellsurge, which you didn't touch.

It's not just that. The spell obviously grants a disproportional advantage.

The spell lets you rest. That is 100% of things it does. You should never be attacked while resting (as it makes you rest more), so the spell has no practical effect.

Not specific at all. This is a totally comprehensive no-minions rule. Summoning a Balor / Pit Fiend / Solar is no longer an option.

Unless you cast planar binding. Or planar ally. Or animate dead. Or simulacrum. Or ice assassin. Or dominate monster. gate is broken, but it is not uniquely broken and banning only it makes the problem worse because it implicitly makes all those other things okay.

AFAIK, Hydrogen is not available (or even exists for that matter) in fantasy.

Then what the **** is water made of?

I'm less concerned with ability enhancements.

Not ability scores. Actual monster abilities. Like the Ocean Giant's immunity to bludgeoning weapons and the Zodar's immunity to non-bludgeoning weapons.

I'm not aware of any general rule that the spell is part of.

It's a BFC spell. Unless you have some weird personal hangup about it (in which case: wat?), you're nerfing it for balance reasons. But that doesn't do anything, because the replacement spell (wings of flurry or something) is close to as good. So you just move stuff around without fixing the problem.

I see no justification whatsoever to allow mortals creation of magic items on-the-fly. This worsens the "Christmas Tree" syndrome.

If people need gear to keep up and you think that is a problem, you should make gear easier rather than harder to acquire.

The specific reason for instant item creation was, IIRC, to justify the existence of expensive items, even though they have the same profit (500gp/day) but lower liquidity (because they take so long to finish).

[tsj]

A correction to my privious post:

My solution would be to create a set of new classes using the trisociate system...

I have already created the 30 classes I think is needed.

Each caster class will have a specific list of allowed spells

Most spells in this thread are considered broken,
Spells like: celerity, divine power, transformation etc

The only shape change allowed is for disguise purpose, so your appearance changes but your stats are unaltered

Wildshape works as usual and more than just the druid replacement has this ability

The druid replacement has both druid spells and wildshape but has a lot less spells per day than a regular druid

Metamagic is allowed as usual

All broken or unneeded spells are not featured on the list of allowed spells

All spells that grant ability bonus or boosts are not allowed on the caster

All spells that grant base attack bonus are not allowed
on the caster

Advanced learning only functions on an allowed spell list of the same type so this would normally be the wizards arcane list

Summon monster is allowed but all monsters have only half their normal hit points and they lose a hit point each round

This should hopefully prevent casters from turning in to melee monsters and laugh at mundanes

While still being able to do cool stuff

[nonsi]

swift fly and friends, greater mirror image, arcane spellsurge, high level invisibility variants. Telling people they can't have divine power is likely to make people abusing Persist Spell better because they will spend less time pretending to be Fighters (an enterprise that is a waste of everyone's time). Even if you do want to gish it up, wraithstrike is better than divine power in most cases. sadism too if you have some source of first-round damage.

Ok, then Persistent Spell is the problem. Now I remember why I reinvented it myself, to do something entirely different.

Not really. At +4 levels, Quicken is the suck, and Metamagic Effect doesn't work with Quicken. DMM is a decent choice, but only if you let people use Nightsticks. It's almost certainly worse than arcane spellsurge, which you didn't touch.

Don't get the bolded part.
As for Nightsticks - those shouldn't exist. Period.

The spell lets you rest. That is 100% of things it does. You should never be attacked while resting (as it makes you rest more), so the spell has no practical effect.

1. You can build entire combat strategies in a dungeon around that spell.
2. Never be attacked while resting is ok for a video game, but it doesn't really convey the feel of a dangerous quest.

Unless you cast planar binding. Or planar ally. Or animate dead. Or simulacrum. Or ice assassin. Or dominate monster. gate is broken, but it is not uniquely broken and banning only it makes the problem worse because it implicitly makes all those other things okay.

It wasn't my intention to remove elements of the game, just to make sure you can't summon minions that are above your power grade.

Then what the **** is water made of?

Water.
This is D&D, not RL. Water is an element.

Not ability scores. Actual monster abilities. Like the Ocean Giant's immunity to bludgeoning weapons and the Zodar's immunity to non-bludgeoning weapons.

That's one of the perks of high level polymorph. It's a 9th level spell after all.
If you can't exceed the CL with either HD or CR, then the result is probably within the caster's power grade already. In some cases, DM's ruling should apply if the target can use spells/powers or not.

It's a BFC spell. Unless you have some weird personal hangup about it (in which case: wat?), you're nerfing it for balance reasons. But that doesn't do anything, because the replacement spell (wings of flurry or something) is close to as good. So you just move stuff around without fixing the problem.

Solid fog is a movement inhibitor.
Wings of flurry is broken for an entirely different reason: 1. uncapped damage; 2. immense range; 3. side effect.

If people need gear to keep up and you think that is a problem, you should make gear easier rather than harder to acquire.

The specific reason for instant item creation was, IIRC, to justify the existence of expensive items, even though they have the same profit (500gp/day) but lower liquidity (because they take so long to finish).

One could devise the means to speedup item creation. Instant item creation is a no go in my book.

[nonsi]

All spells that grant ability bonus or boosts are not allowed on the caster

Raistlin Majere would cry

This should hopefully prevent casters from turning in to melee monsters and laugh at mundanes

While still being able to do cool stuff

Ban Natural Spell !!

[Cosi]

Don't get the bolded part.

Metamagic Effect (the Incantatrix's metamagic ability) applies to spells already in effect, meaning it cannot be used with Quicken Spell. I mean, I guess it could, but it wouldn't do anything. Also, the ability takes a full round action to use.

It wasn't my intention to remove elements of the game, just to make sure you can't summon minions that are above your power grade.

With gate you can summon one CR 25 monster at 17th level. With ice assassin, you can make infinity CR 17 monsters at 17th level. And they are permanent, and totally loyal. Minionmancy is broken. Not minionmancy that goes "above your power grade", all minionmancy.

This is D&D, not RL. Water is an element.

I'm not a chemistry major, but I think someone who is could probably come up with some serious problems with this kind of "turtles all the way down" logic. It's better to fix the abuses than screw with the physics engine.

That's one of the perks of high level polymorph. It's a 9th level spell after all.

So rope trick is broken, but immunity to damage is fine? What?

If you can't exceed the CL with either HD or CR, then the result is probably within the caster's power grade already. In some cases, DM's ruling should apply if the target can use spells/powers or not.

That's spurious logic. Immunity to <thing> is a reasonable enough power to have at a fairly low level. But the ability to stack that for every possible thing is broken at literally any possible level. Also, if you're still going to call for DMs to adjudicate how the ability works on the fly, why bother making changes?

Solid fog is a movement inhibitor.

So is bands of steel. Where are the bands of steel nerfs?

Wings of flurry is broken for an entirely different reason: 1. uncapped damage; 2. immense range; 3. side effect.

Uncapped damage is only broken if you have a caster level that is much higher than normal. wings of flurry is shorter range than fireball. The side effect is a little good, but not broken.

[nonsi]

Metamagic Effect (the Incantatrix's metamagic ability) applies to spells already in effect, meaning it cannot be used with Quicken Spell. I mean, I guess it could, but it wouldn't do anything. Also, the ability takes a full round action to use.

Evaluating a feat according to how much a specific PrC's broken feature allows abuse with it is hardly the proper measuring tool.

With gate you can summon one CR 25 monster at 17th level. With ice assassin, you can make infinity CR 17 monsters at 17th level. And they are permanent, and totally loyal. Minionmancy is broken. Not minionmancy that goes "above your power grade", all minionmancy.

Ice Assassin costs 5000xp and 20000gp.
Ignoring mitigating factors is bound to lead to broken results.
That being said, I'm all in favor of nixing it, along with simulacrum.

I'm not a chemistry major, but I think someone who is could probably come up with some serious problems with this kind of "turtles all the way down" logic. It's better to fix the abuses than screw with the physics engine.

I don't get it. In the cosmology of D&D, Water is an element. Elements don't break down to to other components (unless you want to bring particle colliders into the equation).
RL chemistry and physics seem utterly useless and pointless in D&D to me.

So rope trick is broken, but immunity to damage is fine? What?

I believe you're looking at MM-II from the wrong edition.
There's no physical-damage-type immunity in 3.5. Either you're not affected by physical attacks at all (e.g. Incorporeal) or you have DR bludgeoning/[X] or piercing/[X] or slashing/[X].
Note that in the same book, Death Knight is stated to have DR 15/+1 under special qualities (p.208).

That's spurious logic. Immunity to <thing> is a reasonable enough power to have at a fairly low level. But the ability to stack that for every possible thing is broken at literally any possible level. Also, if you're still going to call for DMs to adjudicate how the ability works on the fly, why bother making changes?

Ditto.

So is bands of steel. Where are the bands of steel nerfs?

I see nothing out of the ordinary regarding bands of steel.
It offers a save and repeating opportunity to escape.

Uncapped damage is only broken if you have a caster level that is much higher than normal. wings of flurry is shorter range than fireball. The side effect is a little good, but not broken.

In a dungeon, this usually means all enemies and none of the allies - no combat strategy/tactic required. That's better than ball lightning and blade barrier in most cases.
The spell is obviously badly worded. At the very least, one should treat the damage as slashing and apply DR per damage die.

[Cosi]

Evaluating a feat according to how much a specific PrC's broken feature allows abuse with it is hardly the proper measuring tool.

The only context where Quicken is a thing you care about is one where you get negate (or heavily reduce) the metamagic cost. No one cares about spending a 5th level spell slot to cast Quickened magic missile, or a 9th level spell slot to cast Quickened cloudkill. The question of whether it works with common metamagic reduction tricks is actually quite important to measuring its power. If you couldn't cheese down Persist's cost, it would be a marginal trick for very high level casters to use with swift fly or wraithstrike or the like.

Ice Assassin costs 5000xp and 20000gp.

gate costs 1000 XP.

RL chemistry and physics seem utterly useless and pointless in D&D to me.

RL chemistry and physics are how we interact with the world. Changing them makes it harder to understand how the world behaves, and the only benefit in this instance is that you can't break this spell in this way.

I believe you're looking at MM-II from the wrong edition.

Setting aside the 3.0 -> 3.5 debate, you can get total damage immunity in 3.5 pretty easily. Troll -> Red Dragon -> Green Dragon -> Any Undead gives you Regeneration (all damage except fire and acid is nonlethal), immunity to fire, immunity to acid, and immunity to nonlethal damage.

In a dungeon, this usually means all enemies and none of the allies - no combat strategy/tactic required. That's better than ball lightning and blade barrier in most cases.

It's a burst centered on your arcane caster. That dude is not generally far away from the rest of the party.

The spell is obviously badly worded. At the very least, one should treat the damage as slashing and apply DR per damage die.

It's force damage (I'm pretty sure), and literally no other spell applies DR to each die. Those changes seem pointless and weird.