Deities & Demigods (4e)

[LudiDrizzt]

My friends and I were going to create a side-project, as we're nearing the end of epic tier and this book still doesn't exist. We were gonna go through and stat out the pantheon that remains statless, as well as update the current gods with MM3 damage and hit points. Anyone have any suggestions for things besides the gods to stat out? Like maybe Caiphon, or primal spirits?

The Raven Queen:

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Asmodeus:

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Avandra:

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I think I transferred her over accurately.

[Mindartis]

Perhaps you could continue what PH2 started, and stat out some DnD styled Lovecraftian monsters? PH2 has Dagon, but that's pretty much it. However, I'm not sure about the other PH's.

Also, the Raven Queen, nice work. Looks really solid.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, it looks cool, but it's structured as a MM1-solo: by that, I mean it is very vulnerable to action economy and action denial, which should make her easy to defeat by any party with decent control.

The PCs will get five actions to every single action from the solo, and the solo has no recourse against action denial that is not save-ends. For example, "stun until end of next turn".

[Meta]

Yea, he has the old immortal resilience in there, but usually he has some house rule, that it works on any effect (like I did with Avandra) or that they make saving throws at that start of their turn against any effect. I don't remember precisely how it went.

My WIP:


Avandra

Level 35 Solo Skirmisher (Leader) Initiative: +37
Small immortal humanoid (god) XP 235,000

HP: 1,256 Bloodied: 628 Perception: +34
Blindsight 20
AC: 50
Fort: 44
Ref: 50
Will: 48

Speed 10, Teleport 10, Fly 8 (see Unparalleled Traveler)
Immune: Disease, Restrain, Immobilize, Slow, Prone, Forced Movement, Dominate, Petrify, Difficult Terrain.
Saving Throws +5; Action Points 2 (see Fortune’s Blade)

Traits:
Aura of Unfettered Motion
Allies with 20 squares gain a +5 bonus to saving throws against effects that slow, immobilize, or restrain. Allies within the aura may make saves against these effects at the beginning of their turn, even if a save is not normally allowed

Unparalleled Traveler
Enemies adjacent to a square Avandra begins or ends a teleport in take 15 damage. Allies will be healed 15 instead. Furthermore, anytime Avandra scores a critical hit with a weapon attack, the damage/heal goes up by two until the end of the encounter.

Luck Favors the Bold
Avandra scores a critical hit on a roll of 17-20 and enemies attacking her crit on a 19-20

Myriad Chance
Once per round, Avandra may reroll any one die roll

Standard Actions
Fortune's Blade (weapon) At-Will:
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +40 vs. AC
Hit: 5d6 + 20 (5d10 + 50 on a crit and the target is stunned till the end of Avandra’s next turn. Avandra regains an action point if possible.)
Miss: Avandra’s next Kukri attack against the target may target Fortitude or Reflex instead of AC

Two-Weapon Flurry (weapon) At-Will
Avandra makes two Kukri attacks against one foe. If both hit, the target takes ongoing damage equal to Avandra's Unparalleled Traveler damage (save ends)

Exodus of Steel (weapon) Recharge 5,6
Avandra makes a Kukri attack against every adjacent enemy, then teleports her speed and then may make a Kukri attack against an adjacent foe.

Minor Actions:
Grand Destiny Recharge 5,6
Effect: One ally within 20 squares may substitute their next die roll with a natural 20

Villainous Vulnerability 1/round
Attack: Close Burst 10 (enemies) +38 vs. Will
Hit: The targets become vulnerable 20 to critical hits (save ends)

Quicksilver Blink (weapon) Recharge 3,4,5,6
Avandra teleports her speed. If bloodied, she may make a Kukri attack before or after the move as a free action.

Triggered Actions:
Even the Odds (weapon) At-Will
Trigger: An enemy scores a critical hit on Avandra or one of her allies within 10 sq.
Effect (Immediate Reaction): Avandra teleports adjacent to the enemy and makes a Kukri attack. If it hits, the attack is automatically a crit.

Immortal Karma At-Will
Trigger: Avandra is subjected to an effect.
Effect (No Action): Avandra makes a saving throw against the effect. If she fails, the source of the effect experiences the effect as well, but (save ends)

Wanderer’s Riposte (weapon) Recharge 4,5,6
Trigger: Avandra is dealt damage by an opponent
Effect (Immediate Interrupt): Avandra teleports adjacent to the enemy and makes a Kukri attack. If it hits, Avandra gains resistance 20 to this opponents attacks until the end of its next turn

Skills: Acrobatics: +35, Insight +34, Perception +34, Stealth +35, Diplomacy +32
STR: 23(+23) DEX: 36 (+30) WIS: 35 (+29)
CON 26 (+25) INT: 25(+25) CHA: 30 (+27)


Not settled on it just yet, but it's what I'm tinkering with

EDIT: added that riposte is an II

[Kurald Galain]

Avandra

Level 35 Solo Skirmisher (Leader)

Looks nasty :)

Just one thing - at epic tier, pretty much every PC is already going to be critting on a 19+.

[Mando Knight]

Okay, it looks cool, but it's structured as a MM1-solo: by that, I mean it is very vulnerable to action economy and action denial, which should make her easy to defeat by any party with decent control.

The PCs will get five actions to every single action from the solo, and the solo has no recourse against action denial that is not save-ends. For example, "stun until end of next turn".

The Immortal Resistance power should also be a No Action, Twisted Fate should specify that it targets the triggering creature, and while she has plenty of choices for attacks, she saps her own action economy when trying to get around enemy resistance, and has practically no multi-target powers after her fairly overpowered initial attack.

[Meta]

Looks nasty :)

Just one thing - at epic tier, pretty much every PC is already going to be critting on a 19+.

I figured as much, but it was another way to lessen the effectiveness of crit fishers comparatively, which makes sense for the Goddess of Luck. Don't expect skewing luck to help you in this fight!

Plus, the drawback seemed a flavorful way to include one of her mantras.

EDIT: I was running out of room on word, but she also has the immunity to non-epic tier characters

Also, Riposte is an IR

[LudiDrizzt]

Thoughts about Blood to Ice becoming close burst? I feel like she does need more multi-target attacks.

[Meta]

I was sorta thinking the burst power should hit reflex, plus Touch of Death makes a lot of sense as a fort hitter, so maybe switch the two and make blood a bit weaker and a close burst. That said, Blood to Ice sounds very Fort attacking as well. If you wanna go for the trifecta, nerf Death's Undoing a touch and Range 10, 3 targets or something. Then she's all kinds of versatile.

[ShaggyMarco]

Avandra needs an at-will Freeaction: trigger: Avandra is reduced to 0 hit points by damage that is not the result of a critical hit. Effect: The damage dealt by this source is reduced to 0.

[LudiDrizzt]

I was sorta thinking the burst power should hit reflex, plus Touch of Death makes a lot of sense as a fort hitter, so maybe switch the two and make blood a bit weaker and a close burst. That said, Blood to Ice sounds very Fort attacking as well. If you wanna go for the trifecta, nerf Death's Undoing a touch and Range 10, 3 targets or something. Then she's all kinds of versatile.

The thing is, it's reflex because all she is trying to do is touch them for it to work. Fort is for the death saving throw, and the brunt of the death effect. Blood to Ice could go etierh way. Death's undoing might work better that way.

[Meta]

The thing is, it's reflex because all she is trying to do is touch them for it to work. Fort is for the death saving throw, and the brunt of the death effect. Blood to Ice could go etierh way. Death's undoing might work better that way.

Try splitting Blood to Ice up like a prismatic power. Lower the attack bonus by 1, make it close burst something, lower the damage some. You roll one die to hit and then compare it to Fort and Ref. The fort one does the daze to stun to petrify, and the reflex does the cold to damage tree of failed saves. You could add an attack will effect that just lowers saving throws which synergizes with the rest of the power and makes your -5 to saving against the effect not come out of left field. Start at a -1 or -2 to saves and progress like the other effects.

[LudiDrizzt]

Try splitting Blood to Ice up like a prismatic power. Lower the attack bonus by 1, make it close burst something, lower the damage some. You roll one die to hit and then compare it to Fort and Ref. The fort one does the daze to stun to petrify, and the reflex does the cold to damage tree of failed saves. You could add an attack will effect that just lowers saving throws which synergizes with the rest of the power and makes your -5 to saving against the effect not come out of left field. Start at a -1 or -2 to saves and progress like the other effects.

Seems all needlessly complicated, which is a big problem a lot of people fall into when designing monsters of this scope. I saw an Asmodeus and Tharizdun build on the homebrew forum that would be good if they weren't so awkwardly built. The -5 is just designed to show that it's hard to shake off the effect, the effect doesn't get harder to shake off over time.

Also, lemme know when Avandra is 100% done. I'll make her an adventure tools statblock and add her to the first post.

[Surrealistik]

This thread belongs in homebrew.

And I agree with pretty much everything Kurald has said. The Raven Queen as presented lacks adequate action economy, and control countermeasures. Avandra suffers from this problem as well, though not as much (Immortal Karma is nasty; I like it).

Also the Raven Queen is far more of a Brute than a Controller as you have her stated.

Seems all needlessly complicated, which is a big problem a lot of people fall into when designing monsters of this scope. I saw an Asmodeus and Tharizdun build on the homebrew forum that would be good if they weren't so awkwardly built. The -5 is just designed to show that it's hard to shake off the effect, the effect doesn't get harder to shake off over time.

I'm not sure what was so 'awkwardly built' about them. The effects were all precisely and clearly articulated, and the complication at par with existing modern solos with the exception of certain trademark powers.

That said, I disagree with Blood to Ice being made prismatic; it looks good as is, but you should definitely include a clause that has its ongoing damage ignore the resistance granted by its petrification.

[Sipex]

I like it although I would change her immunity to Slowed/Immoblised/Restrained. Instead of a flat out immunity give her an some sort of passive buff designed around making her much more dangerous if you try to restrict her movement (because hey, goddess of freedom).

[LudiDrizzt]

Nobody in homebrew pays attention to 4e. This is a better place for it.

Gonna do a little bit of altering of powers for the Raven Queen here as soon as I finish up Asmodeus.

EDIT: Asmodeus is done, gonna change the RQ a bit, probably convert her into Artillery. As a Sorceress, that makes more sense anyway.

[Meta]

I think I'm mostly pleased with Avandra. She has some sort of defense against most of the degenerate archetypes, and has a simple, but potentially lethal offense. It works, without becoming a pain, methinks.

Asmodeus looks strong. Why does he have the leader subtype though?

The only nitpick I have is with making up effects. It makes it so much harder to build effective defensive heroes, unless you're just focusing on Moar NADs, and the highest levels of optimization are already an initiative race followed by some sort of end the fight now nova. A different discussion though.

[LudiDrizzt]

I think I'm mostly pleased with Avandra. She has some sort of defense against most of the degenerate archetypes, and has a simple, but potentially lethal offense. It works, without becoming a pain, methinks.

Asmodeus looks strong. Why does he have the leader subtype though?

The only nitpick I have is with making up effects. It makes it so much harder to build effective defensive heroes, unless you're just focusing on Moar NADs, and the highest levels of optimization are already an initiative race followed by some sort of end the fight now nova. A different discussion though.

Most of his effects can be mitigated. The only ones that can't are his encounter power and his thematic trait that he's designed around. Sure, you can't apply a +10 saving throws from superior will to Enthralled, but after you save from that, you're practically done.

Leader subtype is partially a holdover I didn't remove from the original draft. He still gets minions, but I'll probably nix it.

[Meta]

Most of his effects can be mitigated. The only ones that can't are his encounter power and his thematic trait that he's designed around. Sure, you can't apply a +10 saving throws from superior will to Enthralled, but after you save from that, you're practically done.

Leader subtype is partially a holdover I didn't remove from the original draft. He still gets minions, but I'll probably nix it.

No I agree, I don't think making it 'just dominated' is the answer. Just in general that's a very annoying status effect, as players would rather play their characters in a losing fight, than watch someone else do it and trounce fights. Also, superior will doesn't help with dominate. Dominate immunity is pretty hard to come by. Asmodeus looks rather nasty

EDIT: I found those Asmodeus and Tharizdun write ups. They were decent, but I don't think very practical or useful to a DM with a good relationship to his/her players. They seem more "watch me punish my snotling PbP players!" I have to run now, but I'll try and elaborate more later.

[Surrealistik]

EDIT: I found those Asmodeus and Tharizdun write ups. They were decent, but I don't think very practical or useful to a DM with a good relationship to his/her players. They seem more "watch me punish my snotling PbP players!" I have to run now, but I'll try and elaborate more later.

Less about punishing my PbP players (which will never see either monster), more about challenging pimped out, high char op parties.

[Meta]

Ohh I didn't know you actually had a PbP group, I simply got the feeling that these monsters are designed to counteract some very specific builds, which is NOT good design, and bad form to any player on the receiving end. Hence, less of an issue in a PbP game, where you can avoid any confrontation by dodging the reply button.

I don't really see those two as entertaining monsters to fight against or frankly even with. If you really have an entire party of top top top tier builds then I honestly think their competitiveness would be excellent for another game. DotA teams happen to be five players, and really utilize those brains! If someone wants long, frustrating, yet challenging boss fights though, I'd buy them a copy of FF XI.

EDIT: I certainly don't think I'm a savant of monster building, but with Avandra I tried to lower the effectiveness of a few build archetypes a bit, but not hindering the majority of characters much. Heck, those without extended crit ranges are even better off! I think building monsters that really limit a PC's options are really against the spirit of the game and cut back on the chances to be heroic... errr epic. That said, we both had different design goals in our creations, so YMMV

[LudiDrizzt]

Ohh I didn't know you actually had a PbP group, I simply got the feeling that these monsters are designed to counteract some very specific builds, which is NOT good design, and bad form to any player on the receiving end. Hence, less of an issue in a PbP game, where you can avoid any confrontation by dodging the reply button.

I don't really see those two as entertaining monsters to fight against or frankly even with. If you really have an entire party of top top top tier builds then I honestly think their competitiveness would be excellent for another game. DotA teams happen to be five players, and really utilize those brains! If someone wants long, frustrating, yet challenging boss fights though, I'd buy them a copy of FF XI.

EDIT: I certainly don't think I'm a savant of monster building, but with Avandra I tried to lower the effectiveness of a few build archetypes a bit, but not hindering the majority of characters much. Heck, those without extended crit ranges are even better off! I think building monsters that really limit a PC's options are really against the spirit of the game and cut back on the chances to be heroic... errr epic. That said, we both had different design goals in our creations, so YMMV

Agreed. Hopefully this collection will, when its all said and done, reflect that. I'm thinking we turn it into a PDF and digitally distribute it.

[Meta]

Agreed. Hopefully this collection will, when its all said and done, reflect that. I'm thinking we turn it into a PDF and digitally distribute it.

I'm hurt pit fiendling is OP worthy, but Avandra isn't

EDIT: I took out Fate Iron Weapons and added a similar effect to Unparalleled Traveler since you were displeased with it. I hope this may work a bit better

EDIT 2: I'll address some things other people said here in a sec.

@Sipex
The Avatar of Freedom ED grants immunity to all of those things (not Disease. But a wise traveller is always innoculated!) plus dominate and petrify so I'm already making Avandra worse than her worshippers against her antithesis. Lowering that even more is pretty unacceptable imo. On second thought, I should really add dominate and petrify... I hate nixing dominate, but the Goddess of Freedom should probably be.

@Shaggy that seems like it sorta runs sort of counter to the fluff, I'm not going to put it in, but if I did, I add the opposite if anything. You CAN'T finish Avandra with a lucky blow. It also is slightly anti-synergetic with Even the Odds.

[Surrealistik]

Ohh I didn't know you actually had a PbP group, I simply got the feeling that these monsters are designed to counteract some very specific builds, which is NOT good design, and bad form to any player on the receiving end. Hence, less of an issue in a PbP game, where you can avoid any confrontation by dodging the reply button.

I don't really see those two as entertaining monsters to fight against or frankly even with. If you really have an entire party of top top top tier builds then I honestly think their competitiveness would be excellent for another game. DotA teams happen to be five players, and really utilize those brains! If someone wants long, frustrating, yet challenging boss fights though, I'd buy them a copy of FF XI.

EDIT: I certainly don't think I'm a savant of monster building, but with Avandra I tried to lower the effectiveness of a few build archetypes a bit, but not hindering the majority of characters much. Heck, those without extended crit ranges are even better off! I think building monsters that really limit a PC's options are really against the spirit of the game and cut back on the chances to be heroic... errr epic. That said, we both had different design goals in our creations, so YMMV

To each his own. The definition of 'frustrating' or 'unfun' is contingent on the capabilities of a character's items, build and build synergy. Both Asmodeus and Tharizdun make certain assumptions about character optimization and gear level, namely that both are maxed out, which means the PCs, if properly built, should have enough countermeasures between their character and item powers and properties to make the fight difficult, but also fun and fair.

As for countering specific archetypes, that's only really true of action economy destroying controllers, whom by necessity need to be nerfed in order for solos to function at all. Even so, an optimized one that has maxed out save penalties can certainly still buy several precious rounds for the party during which neither Solo will devastate them, which is obviously a huge contribution.

[Doug Lampert]

I think I'm mostly pleased with Avandra. She has some sort of defense against most of the degenerate archetypes, and has a simple, but potentially lethal offense. It works, without becoming a pain, methinks.

Damage looks way way low to me. 2d6+20? Really, for a level 35 solo? Granted she can attack lots of targets, but for a solo she should be able to attack EVERYONE, every round, for an average of 43 or so damage on a hit.

43 damage is what you'd expect from an at will attack from a level 35 standard, and a solo has to be able to stand in for an entire group of them. That means she needs to do a couple hundred damage a round if she hits.

Her limited use powers should be doing more like 64 average damage on a hit + control + wide enough area to hit everybody.

[Meta]

Damage looks way way low to me. 2d6+20? Really, for a level 35 solo? Granted she can attack lots of targets, but for a solo she should be able to attack EVERYONE, every round, for an average of 43 or so damage on a hit.

43 damage is what you'd expect from an at will attack from a level 35 standard, and a solo has to be able to stand in for an entire group of them. That means she needs to do a couple hundred damage a round if she hits.

Her limited use powers should be doing more like 64 average damage on a hit + control + wide enough area to hit everybody.

It's probably a bit low now. I had an ability that added 1d10 to damage each time she crit, but DM didn't like it. That said, she should average about 2.5 attacks each turn, and closer to 3.7 when she's bloodied. That's all single target mind you, possibly more with blade twister. Hopefully some teleport damage gets added in too. I think I'll buff the extra damage from TP to 2 and buff her basic attack slightly, though.

EDIT: @ Rock Paper Scissors is definitely a fair fight, but that doesn't mean it's fun, so I think I'm missing where you're coming from on that end. Aiming for fair as a design goal of yours is too low a mark, it needs to be fair AND entertaining. I do admit, that it's possible for some to people to enjoy that sort of lockdown, static fighting though, so perhaps it wouldn't be frustrating to all.

[Beleriphon]

I have nothing to add for the builds, which look pretty good but my monster building is definitely not up to snuff. That said, I think for future monsters some primordials might be fun counter points to the gods.

[Surrealistik]

EDIT: @ Rock Paper Scissors is definitely a fair fight, but that doesn't mean it's fun, so I think I'm missing where you're coming from on that end. Aiming for fair as a design goal of yours is too low a mark, it needs to be fair AND entertaining. I do admit, that it's possible for some to people to enjoy that sort of lockdown, static fighting though, so perhaps it wouldn't be frustrating to all.

First off, entertainment through challenge is the goal, not simply 'fair'. Rock Paper Scissors is furthermore a gross oversimplification. The parties in mind will either possess enough saving throw generators and bonuses to mitigate lockdown and thus go the distance, or a huge enough damage output to hopefully outslug. Lastly, the first form of Tharizdun has soft control (banishment excepted) as opposed to Asmodeus' use of the dominated condition (on the flipside he lacks the multiple turns Tharizdun does), while the second has very little in the way of hard control.

[Meta]

First off, entertainment through challenge is the goal, not simply 'fair'. Rock Paper Scissors is furthermore a gross oversimplification. The parties in mind will either possess enough saving throw generators and bonuses to mitigate lockdown and thus go the distance, or a huge enough damage output to hopefully outslug. Lastly, the first form of Tharizdun has soft control (banishment excepted) as opposed to Asmodeus' use of the dominated condition (on the flipside he lacks the multiple turns Tharizdun does), while the second has very little in the way of hard control.

Nono, you misunderstood. I was not saying any of those boss fights will be a simple rock papers scissors fight. What I'm saying is that these fights would have a fair degree of fairness, yes, but that shouldn't be the only measurement you use. Rock paper scissors being a good example of a completely fair game. As an example: A heroic tier monster that immobilizes and prones at-will could certainly be challenging to a party with a few melee characters, but in no way does that mean its fun. Don't get me wrong it COULD be a great time all around, but will be so in spite of the static challenge. Same goes for the mass dominate.

Essentially I'm saying your metrics for fun are both off. You say that the fun will come from a challenging encounter. You've attempted to make a challenging and fair fight. Fair enough, I think there are some decent aspects of both those, but neither of those equates to being fun. Calculus homework may be fair and challenging, but I'd rather not spend five hours doing it.

EDIT: I really don't think they're terribly designed monsters given their purpose , but they could use some fixing within that realm, and those problems become magnified when considering the more average party, and hence why they're a stark contrast to these. We're aiming to supplement the majority of DnD players so the monsters we stat out will be different in aim, we can both agree to that, I think.

[LudiDrizzt]

3 down. I think next I'm gonna go ahead and adjust the math on the current gods before moving onto any newbies.

Any suggestions on how to improve Tiamat, Vecna, Bahamut, or Torog? Lolth seems aces already.

I feel as though Torog is already a monster, personally. Tiamat seems solid as well. Vecna and Bahamut I'm not as sure about.