The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

[theangelJean]

I'm a few days late to this, but ...

All of the links to the Patreon post go to the top of the page. And it's a looong page. Nothing we can do about either of those things, but ...

Would it be possible to borrow a convention from Ask a Manager, adding something like "(question 20 at the link)" to the link text, so that once you arrive on the page you at least know where to look? I know it's clunky, and I'm not sure exactly how it would fit in with the Index, but since the Index's purpose is to find a particular quote, I think it would be really useful.

[Jasdoif]

Would it be possible to borrow a convention from Ask a Manager, adding something like "(question 20 at the link)" to the link text, so that once you arrive on the page you at least know where to look? I know it's clunky, and I'm not sure exactly how it would fit in with the Index, but since the Index's purpose is to find a particular quote, I think it would be really useful.

Hmm...Are you saying my (deliberately excessive) quoting from the questions within the entries is too subtle?

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In any case; new page means reminder that we're in the middle of an update cycle:

UPDATE COMING, CALLING FOR PMs TO REQUIRE VOTES

Anyone thinking any of the entries marked "Accepting PMs to require vote" should not be included in the Index should send me a private message, saying the entry should require a vote. (The default is to include, an item not voted on will be included in the Index.) If I get PMs from two or more people about a particular entry, it will be voted on to decide inclusion; the vote will be the next stage, and I'll announce it when the vote is ready.

The other quotes below reached strong consensus already. A vote is considered unnecessary in that case; they will be included.

Proposed Items for Index 6.3
🍌An Order of the Stick Animated Series?(#9) "It's not a thing I'm pursuing at this time."	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. PM threshold met, vote required.
🍌Character Experience Isn't Tracked(#22) "Everyone should consider their character sheets to have the little shrugging emoji guy where their level should be listed."	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
🍌Characters Have a Specific Reason to be in the Comic(#27) "I'm telling a specific story, and if that character type doesn't have a role in the story then they won't be in it."	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌Durkon was Never Imagined as Staying Dead(#19) "I'm not sure what the point of doing that might have been, but it wouldn't have helped me tell the story I was telling."	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. PM threshold met, vote required.
🍌How the Comic's Pacing Is Maintained Over Time(#30) "The first panel of every strip continues on from the previous one....The last panel has...a punchline or a reveal or a cliffhanger...All the middle stuff, that's the story."	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍍🍌On Continuity from Comedy(#17) "A lot of the things that are crucial parts of the story were just random gags early on that I then had to work into a cohesive narrative without invalidating the earlier comics." Such as the Elven pantheon and swirly eyes showing domination.	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌On How Elan's Parents' Marriage Is Not a Plot Point(#29) "I don't feel that it's something that necessarily demands a more specific on-panel answer than that."	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
🍌Order of the Stick Isn't Based on a "Real" Tabletop Game(#16) "I think I cribbed maybe three or four jokes from things that happened in a game session I played...."	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
🍌Order of the Stick Won't Be Remastered(#8) "...it is what it is, in all its deeply flawed glory." See also here ("I could see myself doing clean-up on the odd mouth here or there, but probably not a full redraw").	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
🍌Roy's Boots are Intentionally Misproportioned(#4) "It just became one of the things that makes Roy look like Roy, so it stayed around."	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Giant is Always Surprised by Reactions(#32) "To some degree, every single thing I put in the comic gets at least one reaction that I could not possibly have predicted."	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Giant on Future Projects(#10) "I 100% fully expect to continue writing after OOTS is finished....What form that writing takes is still uncertain."	#1193	2020/03/01	Accepting PMs to require vote. PM threshold met, vote required.
🍌The Giant's Favorite Character to Write(#31) "My favorite character to write is whichever one I'm focusing on at the moment." "...the most fun I've had writing a character in a long time was actually Zhou Bo...."	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Reason for the Draketooth Mummies' Mimicry(#5) "I needed a way to get it to say, 'Your fault,' without there being any meaning or intent on the mummy's part."	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌Thrall-Durkon was Like Malack's Puppet(#18) "...the thrall merely took on the personality that Malack wanted it to have....Vampire Durkon, as we later got to know him, was inside DurkonÂ’s mind that whole time absorbing memories but having no (or very limited) control over the bodyÂ’s outside actions".	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌Vaarsuvius is Genderqueer(#6) But "not talking about gender is just culturally part of being an elf".	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍌We're Not Likely to Learn More about Belkar's Family(#7)	#1193	2020/03/01	No vote required, will be included.
🍍🍌On Open-Ended Characterization "I don't really bother deciding things about the characters unless they have a purpose." Details like Elan's last name will be revealed if/when they become significant to the story; and details like Elan's Mother's name aren't given "on purpose"(#28).	#980	2015/04/26	No vote required, will be included.
🍍🍌On Webcomics and Print as Mediums The webcomic is just a distribution method. "There are comic strips, and there are comic books, and there are hybrids in-between the two (like OOTS), and all of these things are published both on paper and on the internet"(#26).	#980	2015/04/25	No vote required, will be included.
🍍🍌The MitD ( ) Reveal is a Crucial Part of the Story And we will actually get an answer(#3) to what he is.	#980	2015/04/24	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
🍍🍌The Story is Still (Sort Of) Evolving "I'm trying to wrap up more than I add, but if there weren't room to add I would get bored before the end." See also here(#2) ("...the big questions of what's going to happen? ...locked that in around the time of the first crayon drawing scene in Paladin Blues").	#945	2014/02/17	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
🍍🍌V's Splices There won't be a prequel book about them, and the Giant hasn't developed a backstory for them; not even deciding if they're from previous versions of the world(#20).	#801	2011/08/21	No vote required, will be included.
🍍🍌Miko's Fight How Miko defeated the OOTS off-panel and captured them; with a degree of detail the Giant hasn't done "before or since"(#21).	#251	2005/11/30	No vote required, will be included.

PMs will be accepted until March 19th, 9PM EDT. I'll try to update the table if/when entries get sufficient PMs.

To send me a PM, click my username (The vaguely-pronounceable(?)-looking word above the spellcasting-and-invocation-using banana with purple hair) and select "Private Message". Or I guess you could click here. Anyway, include the titles of the entries you're nominating in the message. Mentioning something about "Index Nomination" in the subject line would be helpful.

A few final reminders:

• Don't post suggestions to require votes. They're sent by PM to avoid filling up the thread with them, posts will not be counted.
• Only PM for entries you think should be excluded. They'll be included if they don't receive sufficient nominations.
• We're not voting on the entries yet. The voting will be the next stage, assuming a vote is required; I'll call for the vote at an appropriate time.
• We still have a banana in charge. Hi. (I neither confirm nor deny a zapped status.)

Further discussion of entries is encouraged at this point. In particular, recommendations for different titles and descriptions for the quote entries are things I'd be happy to consider.

[theangelJean]

Hmm...Are you saying my (deliberately excessive) quoting from the questions within the entries is too subtle?

I'm not actually sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that (a) you feel the quotations you have included in each entry should be sufficient without having to follow the links (eg. ""I 100% fully expect to continue writing after OOTS is finished....What form that writing takes is still uncertain."?)

Or that (b) you have included enough of the original question in the entry titles/text, that a reader following the link should be easily able to find where the relevant quote is located?

My point is that as an end-user, once these quotes are all moved into their relevant sections in the Index, if I want to find exactly what the Giant said about X, and I follow a link to a page of 30-odd answers, it would really help to know which of them contains the quote I'm looking for. It's going to be much easier to scan the question numbers while scrolling, than to look for key words in the text. For example the quote you have added to the entry on "The Story is Still (sort of)Evolving" comes from question 2 at the link, while the one added to the "Miko's Fight" entry comes from question 21. Yes, a reader could read each question to determine if it is the one they are looking for, or do a search, but it's going to be a lot easier if they know to scroll down to question 21.

Sorry to do this in the middle of the update cycle, I've been away for a bit and hadn't seen the proposed entries until now.

[Throknor]

I'm not actually sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that (a) you feel the quotations you have included in each entry should be sufficient without having to follow the links (eg. ""I 100% fully expect to continue writing after OOTS is finished....What form that writing takes is still uncertain."?)

Or that (b) you have included enough of the original question in the entry titles/text, that a reader following the link should be easily able to find where the relevant quote is located?

My point is that as an end-user, once these quotes are all moved into their relevant sections in the Index, if I want to find exactly what the Giant said about X, and I follow a link to a page of 30-odd answers, it would really help to know which of them contains the quote I'm looking for. It's going to be much easier to scan the question numbers while scrolling, than to look for key words in the text. For example the quote you have added to the entry on "The Story is Still (sort of)Evolving" comes from question 2 at the link, while the one added to the "Miko's Fight" entry comes from question 21. Yes, a reader could read each question to determine if it is the one they are looking for, or do a search, but it's going to be a lot easier if they know to scroll down to question 21.

Sorry to do this in the middle of the update cycle, I've been away for a bit and hadn't seen the proposed entries until now.

I don't want to put words in your mouth fingers, but to rephrase I think you are asking that the question number be included somehow so the searcher does not have to search again after following the link.

[Jasdoif]

Or that (b) you have included enough of the original question in the entry titles/text, that a reader following the link should be easily able to find where the relevant quote is located?

That was my intent, at the very least....

My point is that as an end-user, once these quotes are all moved into their relevant sections in the Index, if I want to find exactly what the Giant said about X, and I follow a link to a page of 30-odd answers, it would really help to know which of them contains the quote I'm looking for. It's going to be much easier to scan the question numbers while scrolling, than to look for key words in the text. For example the quote you have added to the entry on "The Story is Still (sort of)Evolving" comes from question 2 at the link, while the one added to the "Miko's Fight" entry comes from question 21. Yes, a reader could read each question to determine if it is the one they are looking for, or do a search, but it's going to be a lot easier if they know to scroll down to question 21.

So you're thinking...like, superscript question numbers at the end of the links?

🍌Roy's Boots are Intentionally Misproportioned(#4) "It just became one of the things that makes Roy look like Roy, so it stayed around."

#1193

2020/03/01

[Personification]

I too would prefer question-number citations.

[theangelJean]

That was my intent, at the very least....

So you're thinking...like, superscript question numbers at the end of the links?

🍌Roy's Boots are Intentionally Misproportioned(#4) "It just became one of the things that makes Roy look like Roy, so it stayed around."

#1193

2020/03/01

Yes, all I meant was for question numbers to be added to the Patreon links. Superscript looks good, I wasn't sure how to format it. Sorry for not being more clear.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, all I meant was for question numbers to be added to the Patreon links. Superscript looks good, I wasn't sure how to format it.

Seems reasonable enough to me...done.

[theangelJean]

Perfect, thank you!

ETA: And, as someone who did minor corrections on the transcript of the interview, I agree that it should have relevant parts pulled out and indexed, probably with timestamps rather than question numbers ... at some point. I know nobody's volunteering just yet. Still deciding if I have the time myself.

[Gwynfrid]

Two suggestions:

• "OOTS won't be remastered" shouldn't be its own entry, but just a "see also" next to the older "see also" with "What Bothers the Giant about Early Strips' Art".
  
• I'm not keen on "On What a Plot Point is Not(#29)", because it doesn't say much about the topic. From the perspective of an Index user who wants to find a quote that answers a question on the forum, it would make more sense to phrase it along the lines of "On Elan's parents' marriage as a (non-)plot point", or similar.

[Jasdoif]

• "OOTS won't be remastered" shouldn't be its own entry, but just a "see also" next to the older "see also" with "What Bothers the Giant about Early Strips' Art".

I dunno...if the Giant's been asked about remastering multiple times, to the point of having a section on it in the commentary of the Dungeon Crawlin' Fools PDF like he says, it's likely more useful to have it as its own entry rather than added under another...what's everyone else think?

• I'm not keen on "On What a Plot Point is Not(#29)", because it doesn't say much about the topic. From the perspective of an Index user who wants to find a quote that answers a question on the forum, it would make more sense to phrase it along the lines of "On Elan's parents' marriage as a (non-)plot point", or similar.

Well, the answer doesn't say much about the topic either, that's kinda why I went with what it did say much about. But okay, how about "On How Elan's Parents' Marriage Is Not a Plot Point"?

[theangelJean]

I dunno...if the Giant's been asked about remastering multiple times, to the point of having a section on it in the commentary of the Dungeon Crawlin' Fools PDF like he says, it's likely more useful to have it as its own entry rather than added under another...what's everyone else think?

I actually think the new quote works better as a separate entry, and the second link on the "What Bothers the Giant about the Older Strips Art" would work better as an addition to this one (eg. as a qualifier about maybe "cleaning up a few mouths here and there" being a possibility) rather than where it currently is.

[Jasdoif]

Well then, since waiting for the last minute only goes so far.....

🍌On How Elan's Parents' Marriage Is Not a Plot Point(#29) "I don't feel that it's something that necessarily demands a more specific on-panel answer than that."	#1193	2020/03/01
🍌Order of the Stick Won't Be Remastered(#8) "...it is what it is, in all its deeply flawed glory." See also here ("I could see myself doing clean-up on the odd mouth here or there, but probably not a full redraw").	#1193	2020/03/01

[Jasdoif]

For the record, "On How Elan's Parents' Marriage Is Not a Plot Point" and the update to "The MitD Reveal is a Crucial Part of the Story" both received a single PM.

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Items up for voting:

🍌An Order of the Stick Animated Series?(#9) "It's not a thing I'm pursuing at this time."	#1193	2020/03/01
🍌Durkon was Never Imagined as Staying Dead(#19) "I'm not sure what the point of doing that might have been, but it wouldn't have helped me tell the story I was telling."	#1193	2020/03/01
🍌The Giant on Future Projects(#10) "I 100% fully expect to continue writing after OOTS is finished....What form that writing takes is still uncertain."	#1193	2020/03/01

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• Please bold your yes/no/abstain votes, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
  
  • To be clear, a post without explicit "no" votes will be treated as implicit "no" votes for unreferenced items.
• Votes must be posted (as in, not PM-ed to me) to be counted.
• Please avoid discussing the quotes themselves, outside of giving an explanation for your vote in the same post as your vote. This'll make it easier to catch up after the vote, if a new quote comes along while we're still voting.
• Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes in favor than votes against.

Voting will be open until March 22st, 9PM EDT.

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The other twenty entries will go into the Index after the vote is concluded.

[theangelJean]

Ooh, a vote! I haven't been around for a vote for a while (if ever).

Yes to all.

[pearl jam]

I really just want to praise the banana emotes that are there along with the entries, but since I'm here I might as well vote to include all three, too.

[Fyraltari]

Animated series: Yes.
Durkon staying dead: Yes.
Future projects: No. I fell like it isn't relevant to the Order of the Stick.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No to all

Grey Wolf

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I vote No on all of them.

[Doug Lampert]

No to all.

[Personification]

Yes to all.

[Gwynfrid]

I actually think the new quote works better as a separate entry, and the second link on the "What Bothers the Giant about the Older Strips Art" would work better as an addition to this one (eg. as a qualifier about maybe "cleaning up a few mouths here and there" being a possibility) rather than where it currently is.

Yes, that's what I would have proposed if you hadn't beaten me to it.

On to the votes:

Animated series: Yes.
Durkon staying dead: Yes.
Future projects: Yes. I was opposed at first, but upon checking, Rule B says: "The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew."

[Joerg]

My vote is yes for all three.

[Ortho]

I vote yes to all three.

[137beth]

Yes to all three.

[Reboot]

Animated series: Yes.
Durkon staying dead: Yes.
Future projects: No.

[Kish]

Yes to all.

[Scizor]

Yes to all.

also, typo: deadline is March 22st

[Jasdoif]

Okay.

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• An Order of the Stick Animated Series? passed; 11 in favor, 3 against.
• Durkon was Never Imagined as Staying Dead passed; 11 in favor, 3 against.
• The Giant on Future Projects passed; 9 in favor, 5 against.

Spoiler: Voting Results

Show

Entry	Yes Votes	No Votes	Voters
Animated Series	11	3	Yes Votes: theangelJean, pearl jam, Fyraltari, Personification, Gwynfrid, Joerg, mjp1050, 137ben, Reboot, Kish, Scizor No Votes: Grey_Wolf_c, Jaxzan Proditor, Doug Lampert
Durkon Staying Dead	11	3	Yes Votes: theangelJean, pearl jam, Fyraltari, Personification, Gwynfrid, Joerg, mjp1050, 137ben, Reboot, Kish, Scizor No Votes: Grey_Wolf_c, Jaxzan Proditor, Doug Lampert
Future Projects	9	5	Yes Votes: theangelJean, pearl jam, Personification, Gwynfrid, Joerg, mjp1050, 137ben, Kish, Scizor No Votes: Fyraltari, Grey_Wolf_c, Jaxzan Proditor, Doug Lampert, Reboot

Voter	Animated Series	Durkon Staying Dead	Future Projects
theangelJean
pearl jam
Fyraltari
Grey_Wolf_c
Jaxzan Proditor
Doug Lampert
Personification
Gwynfrid
Joerg
mjp1050
137ben
Reboot
Kish
Scizor

The Index has been updated.

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...and it looks like having twenty-three entries in the Latest Updates table pushed it back to needing three pages for the entries o_o

[Ortho]

Oh, interesting.

In the Art section, the Giant says that he doesn't want to show the titles of the strips because he considers them to be "bonus jokes."
But the titles are shown at the bottom of the page now. I wonder what changed?

Well, obviously his mind's changed. I'm wondering what the reason is.