Two-Weapon Fighting (3.5 Feat, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15
Benefit: As part of a full-round action while wielding a weapon in your main hand and one in your off-hand, you may make two attacks, one with each weapon, regardless of your Base Attack Bonus. The penalty for fighting with two weapons drops by -2 for your main hand and -6 for your off hand, resulting in a -2/-2 penalty if you are wielding a light weapon in your off-hand.

When you make a full-round attack, you receive as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as you would with your main hand weapon based on all factors except the speed weapon enhancement (unless your off-hand weapon is a speed weapon as well)

So for example, Tordek the 16th level fighter has a rapier in his main hand and a dagger in his off-hand. Mialee casts the haste spell. Tordek attacks his enemy, with an attack routine of +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0.

Special: This feat counts as the Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats for the purpose of prerequisites.

[DeAnno]

A fine tax break for the Rogue and similar, not much else to say here. The mechanical wording seems spot on and I can't think of any obvious pitfalls. I've always been partial to either moving both hands down to half strength or both up to full strength to damage, if only because it's annoying to track which hand did which hit, but that's personal preference.

You may or may not want to include a similar Multiweapon Fighting feat with this one if you anticipate having monsters (or characters!) with three arms or more running around in your campaign.

Also, you might want to give the TWF Ranger a new ability at 6 and 11. I don't remember offhand if anyone else gets Improved or Greater TWF as a bonus feat, but I think that's it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also, you might want to give the TWF Ranger a new ability at 6 and 11. I don't remember offhand if anyone else gets Improved or Greater TWF as a bonus feat, but I think that's it.

Yeah. Complete Warrior Samurai too. Hmm...I'll need to think about this.

[BlackestOfMages]

two weapon pounce and two weapon rend might be good stand ins for improved TWF and Greater TWF for samurai/rogues

[Yitzi]

It solves the "high feat requirement" downside of 2WF (and simply by that virtue I think I'll grab it for my fighter fix; a fighter who wants to be able to 2WF has better things to spend his feats on), but it doesn't really solve the "inferior to a 2-handed weapon" problem.

You've solved the secondary problem with 2WF (and quite nicely), but not the primary problem.

[Cieyrin]

It solves the "high feat requirement" downside of 2WF (and simply by that virtue I think I'll grab it for my fighter fix; a fighter who wants to be able to 2WF has better things to spend his feats on), but it doesn't really solve the "inferior to a 2-handed weapon" problem.

You've solved the secondary problem with 2WF (and quite nicely), but not the primary problem.

It's not like you want to pursue the Power Attack angle, as you already take an attack penalty for getting extra attacks. But really, I think this levels the playing field quite nicely, as now TWF has the same investment as Power Attack does and, where the Power Attacker by itself has diminishing returns as they swing wilder and wilder, the TWFer maintains the same attack penalty for more and more attacks. Where it goes off the rails is the feat support for Power Attack comes in (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.), plus the cost of enchanting 2 weapons as opposed to just one. The second is beyond the scope of this fix but the first is served as a solid foundation for having a decent tree, so I don't see it as a problem.

[Yitzi]

It's not like you want to pursue the Power Attack angle, as you already take an attack penalty for getting extra attacks. But really, I think this levels the playing field quite nicely, as now TWF has the same investment as Power Attack does and, where the Power Attacker by itself has diminishing returns as they swing wilder and wilder, the TWFer maintains the same attack penalty for more and more attacks.

The piece you're missing is that even without any Power Attack, TWF is pretty much on-par with a 2-handed weapon; it does 2 more average damage at most (if you use a d10 weapon for your main hand or a d8/d8 double weapon), and has a -2 attack penalty. There are ways to make it useful, but they're tricky to pull off (examples would be spells that give a bonus to damage, such as Divine Favor, or using per-hit enchantments like energy or Wounding on the weapons).

[Seerow]

I still stand by my position that Two Weapon Fighting should be a Proficiency, not a feat. Feats should actually give you an advantage, even with the TWFing feats combined into a single feat like this, you're still spending a feat just to be as good as a guy with Two Handed Fighting without spending any feats. Arguably still worse.

[NeoSeraphi]

I still stand by my position that Two Weapon Fighting should be a Proficiency, not a feat. Feats should actually give you an advantage, even with the TWFing feats combined into a single feat like this, you're still spending a feat just to be as good as a guy with Two Handed Fighting without spending any feats. Arguably still worse.

I agree with this statement, but unfortunately it will be difficult to change most people's (including DMs') minds. At least this way reduces MAD (No longer requiring 19 Dex for GTWF) and feat taxes for TWF.

[Ashtagon]

Thematically, what niche should twf fill?

one-hander: swashbuckler; Erol Flynn, Sinbad, Three Musketeers

sword & board: Soldierly types - slow and steady; Roman legionnaires, hoplites, etc

two-hander: big muscled Conan/Thrud types

two weapon: ?

Once we answer this question collectively, we can better make feats or whatever that work for twf.

[Veklim]

Just about every single skirmisher from just about every single fantasy world, including many elves/elf-like characters (Legolas as a perfect example, uses his swords a fair old bit if you read the books), not to mention every character you've ever seen anywhere using a staff or similar as a double ended weapon. It's actually quite a fantasy staple which has even been reinvented for modern tellings by people like John Woo who almost obsesses over dual-wielding pistols.

two weapon pounce and two weapon rend might be good stand ins for improved TWF and Greater TWF

+1 to that. Also maybe look at unifying the 2 weapon defence feats in a similar manner, they should be far more prevailant an option. Having done a reasonable amount of LRP and re-enactment I can tell you the main reason for dual wielding anything is actually as a strategic/defensive posture, not for 'extra attacks'. Best example is a sword and axe combo (very Viking!). The sword is your main weapon, and does most of the actual attacking, the axe is there to take advantage of any openings, but more importantly to CREATE the openings in the first place. I would like to see a set of feats for 2 weapon fighting which give you options like sacrificing attacks with your off-hand to:
reduce enemy AC from shields and maybe some armours
gain a bonus on trip/disarm attempts
increase your AC by parrying with the offhand

2WF isn't about the extra attacks in RL, it's about the extra options. That said, I think the feat fixes a highly annoying problem with the fighting style and I approve!

[Ashtagon]

Just about every single skirmisher from just about every single fantasy world, including many elves/elf-like characters (Legolas as a perfect example, uses his swords a fair old bit if you read the books), not to mention every character you've ever seen anywhere using a staff or similar as a double ended weapon. It's actually quite a fantasy staple which has even been reinvented for modern tellings by people like John Woo who almost obsesses over dual-wielding pistols.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about him. Legolas, at least the film version, was almost exclusively an archer. I admit it's been a while since I read the books, but I don't recall it being a meaningful point for the character to wield two swords at the same time. Wikipedia notes: "Legolas is armed with a bow and arrows and one 'long white knife'. " One knife, not two. He was definitely a one-hander combatant in melee.

Staves as double weapons? That's friar Tuck and a lot of mystical martial arts types. Then can probably be usefully placed in the same combat niche as the true two-weapon fighter.

The cinematic twf seems to focus on very high rate of attacks. The realistic background makes it a weapon against multiple opponents (second weapon can attack a different foe with no penalty?), or as a defensive weapon (the main gauche was used to defend, much like a buckler). Various eastern martial arts involve dual wielded butterfly swords, sai, or jitte, among others. That still seems really really broad though.

The Johhny Woo "guns akimbo" style feeds from a very different trope.

[DeAnno]

One sort of silly idea is to "keep" Improved and Greater TWF, and simply have them give you even more attacks on a full attack, or two strikes as a standard action.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 17
When you make an attack action as a standard action, an attack of opportunity, or at the end of a charge, and are wielding two weapons, you may attack with each of them once at your highest base attack bonus if you take the two-weapon fighting attack roll penalties.


Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 17, BaB +6
When you make a full attack while wielding two weapons, you can make an extra attack with each at your highest base attack bonus in addition to any attacks you would normally make. This stacks with any similar effect.

[Yitzi]

Thematically, what niche should twf fill?

one-hander: swashbuckler; Erol Flynn, Sinbad, Three Musketeers

sword & board: Soldierly types - slow and steady; Roman legionnaires, hoplites, etc

two-hander: big muscled Conan/Thrud types

two weapon: ?

Once we answer this question collectively, we can better make feats or whatever that work for twf.

Based on real life, two weapons are very useful for defense against slashing weapons, and also can make maneuvers that take one weapon of each person out of commission (binds and so on) extremely useful.

Another idea for sufficiently skilled TWF-ers would be a sort of "trap", where the weapons are maneuvered in a manner so as to make it impossible to dodge both of them.

One sort of silly idea is to "keep" Improved and Greater TWF, and simply have them give you even more attacks on a full attack, or two strikes as a standard action.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 17
When you make an attack action as a standard action, an attack of opportunity, or at the end of a charge, and are wielding two weapons, you may attack with each of them once at your highest base attack bonus if you take the two-weapon fighting attack roll penalties.


Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 17, BaB +6
When you make a full attack while wielding two weapons, you can make an extra attack with each at your highest base attack bonus in addition to any attacks you would normally make. This stacks with any similar effect.

Could work, but you'd have to make sure that it doesn't get broken when combined with anything else.

[DiBastet]

It works. Been using the feat like this two years now.

Btw: It must come with a similar version for Two Weapon Defense.

[Spiryt]

Thematically, what niche should twf fill?

one-hander: swashbuckler; Erol Flynn, Sinbad, Three Musketeers

sword & board: Soldierly types - slow and steady; Roman legionnaires, hoplites, etc

two-hander: big muscled Conan/Thrud types

two weapon: ?

Once we answer this question collectively, we can better make feats or whatever that work for twf.

I don't think it's really good idea to limit player to some very, very specific ideas though....

It's most probable that Roman Legionnaires weren't 'slow and steady' by any means - at contrary, most good shield users in reenacting are in fact aggressive and abruptly, violently moving - charging with large shield quickly and aggressively can easily cut off angles and movement of rushed individual, leaving him open to be chopped down/stabbed.

Based on real life, two weapons are very useful for defense against slashing weapons, and also can make maneuvers that take one weapon of each person out of commission (binds and so on) extremely useful.

Again, based on 'real life' Musashi's two suns, rapier and main gauche, etc. are generally poor mans/portable, civilian version of sword and shield - theoretically with better possibility to attack with your 'board', but it seems to rarely be worthwhile.

So in short, bringing real life into it is not really good idea for basics, due to inherent complete abstractness of D&D.

This:

Another idea for sufficiently skilled TWF-ers would be a sort of "trap", where the weapons are maneuvered in a manner so as to make it impossible to dodge both of them.

is IMO good idea to execute TWF in 3.5 indeed, and tried to play around it a bit few times but weren't really motivated enough...

Some kind of quick and simple combo system that rewards player for hitting in succession a lot, bringing some hefty bonus/possibility to the last attack(s).

Of course making it nice and not more breakable than rest of the system is probably tricky.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thematically, what niche should twf fill?

one-hander: swashbuckler; Erol Flynn, Sinbad, Three Musketeers

sword & board: Soldierly types - slow and steady; Roman legionnaires, hoplites, etc

two-hander: big muscled Conan/Thrud types

two weapon: ?

Once we answer this question collectively, we can better make feats or whatever that work for twf.

Drizzt Do'urden.

Real life examples don't work. Sword n' board was always strictly better.

And on sword n' board guys, what Spiryt said. The shield users you listed were formation guys, and in formations, speed was very necessary.

[Yitzi]

Drizzt Do'urden.

Real life examples don't work. Sword n' board was always strictly better.

So then why did you have things like the Florentine style of fighting? It might not have been common, but it was used.

[Veklim]

Sword and board came into it's own the better armour got, in cultures with lesser metalworking skills and lighter armours, 2 weapons are far more common. It has more to do with tactics, technology and training (the 3 essential Ts!)

The main reason s&b was more prolific is that it's a damned sight easier to train in, you have a weapon to swing, and a shield to deflect and bash, lovely and simple (trust me, it's REMARKABLY easy to pick up). A 2 weapon fighting style can take years upon years of dedicated study and training to perfect as it's very hard to wield 2 weapons without getting tangled up, but once you can, it's a formidable form of combat.

The best way to get past a shield is by using something like a flail, flanged mace or bearded axe to bash, pin or pull away said shield, so your main attack hits defenceless areas. Try standing on a field in just chain & breast, carrying a longsword and a wooden shield, then see how long you can keep that arm up and defending, then compare it to padding & leather with a sword and axe and I think you'll find a good number of reasons to bet on the 2 weapon fighter.

All this said, you can't just arbitrarily deem one combat style as 'superior' to others in any case.... and even if you did, it would be irrelevant since (as someone already pointed out) this is D&D and therefore so completely removed from reality that my entire above arguement is probably already moot.

Ah well, them's the breaks.

[Spiryt]

Sword and board came into it's own the better armour got, in cultures with lesser metalworking skills and lighter armours, 2 weapons are far more common. It has more to do with tactics, technology and training (the 3 essential Ts!)

Ugh what?

Shield in pretty much all cases became less used anytime when someone had really good and covering armor.

Show me one source about "lightly armored and poor equipped" guys with "2 weapons.

Because from what I've ever seen, from poor Celts trough Germanic people trough Persian Empire in antiquity, Vikings/Nords Slavs from all the Europe Japanese peasants, and whoever else, shield, often big one is natural and obvious way of the warrior, to protect oneself and engage opponent.

Before Renaissance, any hints at "TWF" are episodic at best.

So then why did you have things like the Florentine style of fighting? It might not have been common, but it was used.

If you're talking about scenes from Agrippa, DiGrassi etc. works, then :
1) It's civilian context - so as mentioned, daggers and whatever indeed serve as "poor version" of sword'n'board.

But backing to homebrew, from this huge offtop - some of those scarse ideas about fighting with two weapons may easily serve as good inspiration for TWF to work in fantasy...

http://storm.alert.sk/swordsmanship/hutton/case.html

Indeed, the very fact that someone had used them in real life, at least in training to check out the concept, gives 'green light' for some RPG archetypes.

Spoiler

Show

Maybe hitting with 'off hand weapons" gives some bonuses to attacks with the "main"?

"For every single successful attack with off hand weapons threat range of main hand attack is doubled. This bonus applies only to attack made during the same Full attack action".

[Ashtagon]

So it seems twf has historically got two main forms - as a shield substitute (most notable in renaissance Europe) and as an extra attack weapon (most notable with Japanese samurai and Drizzt).

As a shield substitute, we could probably say that a character with twf gains the benefits (and no penalties) of a buckler if he is using a light weapon in his off hand.

As an extra sword, we can choose for no penalty when attacking multiple foes (except there isn't anyway under raw), or we could go for the two weapons interacting to give greater attack/damage/crit bonuses.

[Spiryt]

Weapon in 'off hand' was used to attack plenty in Europe as well, and if the "extra weapon" is used to attack more, then "main" one naturally becomes shields substitute then. Used for parrying, controlling opposing weapon and clearing the way to attack.



The main problem with the 'realistically" and "3.5" in one sentence is that "two times more attacks" doesn't really correspond with human body mechanics to well.

One cannot just swing around two times more effectively just because he's holding two stick instead one.

[Randomguy]

Here's a two weapon defence version, which could be the upgrade that rangers get.

Two Weapon Defence
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not
including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield
bonus to your AC.
When your BAB becomes +6, this bonus increases to +2.
When your BAB becomes +11, this bonus increases to +3.
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defence
action, this shield bonus doubles.
For the purpose of prerequisits, this feat counts as two weapon defence. When your BAB becomes +6, it also counts as improved two weapon defence. When your BAB becomes +11, it also counts as greater two weapon defence.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defence as one of his
fighter bonus feats. Rangers gain this feat as a bonus feat instead of improved combat style.

The improved and greater version of the feat come from complete warrior.

And a third version, which merges the dual strike feat from complete adventurer with two weapon pounce from PHB2.

Dual Strike
Prerequisites: Two weapon fighting, BAB +6.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success, using the worse of the two weapons’ attack modifiers. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand, you take a –4 penalty on this attack roll; otherwise you take a –10 penalty. Each weapon deals its normal damage. Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each
weapon attack.
When charging, you can lose the bonus on attack rolls normally granted by the charge to attack with both weapons.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

What do you think?

[NeoSeraphi]

I actually posted a new version of the Two-Weapon Defense line of feats in my Twin Blade class, and I have to say, I like my version better. I'm sorry if that sounds mean.

However, I do like your version of Dual Strike. It seems very useful.

[Yitzi]

While we're on the topic, my fighter fix (just posted) has a completely new approach to two-weapon defense (based on parrying rather than AC.)