MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Edreyn]

Can he be a creature from a children folklore and fairy tales?

I tried to use Akinator to try if it finds out who MitD can be. Of course, the first result was Monster in the Dark, so I chose this as "wrong" answer, and kept on guessing.
So, after about 70 questions, Akinator twice gave the "Boogeyman" answer. At this stage, I stopped, and moved to Wikipedia.
And, I found out about creature named "Coco".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coco_(folklore)

I will copy what I find most relevant:

The Coco is a male being while Coca is the female version of the mythical monster, although it is not possible to distinguish one from the other as both are the representation of the same being.

This means that there is more then creature. Potentially, they can even have children.

It is not the way the Coco looks but what it does that scares most. It is a child eater and a kidnapper

Remember MitD compaining, that Xykon forces him to eat children? And also Xykon tells to devour Redcloak is he misbehaves.

it may immediately devour the child, leaving no trace, or it may spirit the child away to a place of no return

Can be an explanation to teleport scene. Which is one of most hard.

There is no general description of the cucuy, as far as facial or body descriptions, but it is stated that this shapeshifting being is extremely horrible to look at. The coco is variously described as a shapeless figure, sometimes a hairy monster, that hides in closets or under beds and eats children that misbehave when they are told to go to bed

Explains circus scene.

In Catalonia the "Cuca fera de Tortosa" was first documented in 1457. It is a zoomorphic figure, looks like a tortoise with a horned spine, it has dragon claws and a dragon head.[33][34] The legend says she had to dine every night on three cats and three children. The legend of the Coca can be compared to the one of Peluda or Tarasque.

Can explain constant appetite and strength.

As for other aspects:
1) I didn't find information if they can talk or not.
2) Have Spanish and\or Carribean origin. MitD was found in the jungle, which fits the scene. Though, yes, hunter were surprised to see him. Maybe because those species are from continental Spain climate, and not Carribean?
3) Expected to be VERY evil
4) If you follow the link and see the photos, you can see that it can be almost any size - from human shaped, to much larger.

[Squire Doodad]

snip

Interesting! Yes it can be mythological creature, the Tarasque was sent through a short time ago.
Is there evidence to suggests that the Coco is particularly strong, and that it is capable of withstanding major blows? The Tower Scene is still relevant after all.

[Kish]

Dragon juveniles vary, but can all grow 2-3 size categories from juvenile to great wyrm.

I don't think that's the proper analogy. Growing from juvenile to adult is the proper analogy for "creature smaller than listed racial size becomes listed racial size." And that's always one size category, for any dragon.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't think that's the proper analogy. Growing from juvenile to adult is the proper analogy for "creature smaller than listed racial size becomes listed racial size." And that's always one size category, for any dragon.

Dragon would fall into the "continues to grow even after it reaches maturity, if slowly" category, unless I'm missing something about their biology.

The Akinator reminded me of Akantor, which reminded me that Monster Hunter has a lot of monsters that would make GREAT candidates if they are the explicitly elder members of their species ones, which reminded me that none of them can teleport, which reminded me that they aren't old enough.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Kish’s second proposal is interesting and worth voting on, but I agree that having another vote again so soon might not be terribly productive. Therefore, I’ll hold off on seconding it until at least some time has passed.

I’m hoping that, with the sixth book appearing to reach a close soon enough, we’ll see the MitD soon (in strip terms if not real time). I think at this point we’re not likely to see Team Evil again this book, nor at the beginning of the next, but I’m holding out hope for “soon”.

[Squire Doodad]

I think Kish’s second proposal is interesting and worth voting on, but I agree that having another vote again so soon might not be terribly productive. Therefore, I’ll hold off on seconding it until at least some time has passed.

I’m hoping that, with the sixth book appearing to reach a close soon enough, we’ll see the MitD soon (in strip terms if not real time). I think at this point we’re not likely to see Team Evil again this book, nor at the beginning of the next, but I’m holding out hope for “soon”.

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

[Rob Redblade]

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

I don't want to go into wild speculation, but I kinda hope that "most of the areas" means "all the doors are marked, but we haven't found it?!?". I'd like for MitD's plan to work.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think that's the proper analogy. Growing from juvenile to adult is the proper analogy for "creature smaller than listed racial size becomes listed racial size." And that's always one size category, for any dragon.

Why is adult the right larger size? Dragons remain fertile up to and including great wyrms. And for giants (where we have a rule rather than a bunch of examples), it's always 2 categories.

[CriticalFailure]

Regarding the watch dwarves have sex bit, wouldn't strip 82 be Before the MitD's identity was decided? If so, it may be one of those things that don't really support the chosen identity but don't contradict it either.

Yeah I think so, and I think MiTD only began to be truly *childish* rather than just oblivious etc was around when it was decided.

The way MiTD is portrayed he doesn’t seem like he’s young enough to make his behavior in that scene weird. Or at least weirder than it already was. Redcloak deciding to join him, on the other hand...

[Elves]

For MitD, adult being Huge is pushing it: not quite bad enough to knock it out of the FBS category, but still a con.

So small though! But will grow in time

On the basis of this quote it is totally reasonable to expect that the MITD is 1 size category smaller than the adult creature.

It would actually be visually un-dramatic if it stayed the same size as an adult, so being huge should be a pro if anything. And if we're talking about whether it's a child vs a teen, it's clearly a young child -- "Rainbow Brite, Mr Stiffly" -- for most of the comic and would only now be verging on a kind of moral adolescence that has no necessary correspondence to physical adolescence -- if it even shares a human growth pattern instead of the common trope of monsters having linear growth over time.

Also remember that the size chart you link is biased by assuming a vertical human body plan; a more horizontal body plan would vary much less in mass per extra square of groundspace.

Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.

[CriticalFailure]

On the basis of this quote it is totally reasonable to expect that the MITD is 1 size category smaller than the adult creature.

It would actually be visually un-dramatic if it stayed the same size as an adult, so being huge should be a pro if anything. And if we're talking about whether it's a child vs a teen, it's clearly a young child -- "Rainbow Brite, Mr Stiffly" -- for most of the comic and would only now be verging on a kind of moral adolescence that has no necessary correspondence to physical adolescence -- if it even shares a human growth pattern instead of the common trope of monsters having linear growth over time.

Also remember that the size chart you link is biased by assuming a vertical human body plan; a more horizontal body plan would vary much less in mass per extra square of groundspace.

Agree, the fact that MiTD is significantly smaller than adults if his species has definitely been built up, and cartoon visual logic + artistic lisence definitely are more important than human growth patterns here.

In terms of guesses I’m withyou here:

[/QUOTE] Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.[/QUOTE]

[Kish]

Why is adult the right larger size? Dragons remain fertile up to and including great wyrms. And for giants (where we have a rule rather than a bunch of examples), it's always 2 categories.

To be clear, I'm saying adult is the right larger size for the species' default size. I'm not saying anything about the "my father was bigger" line, which I think generally has way too much weight put on it here.

[Aspheric]

Also remember that the size chart you link is biased by assuming a vertical human body plan; a more horizontal body plan would vary much less in mass per extra square of groundspace.

Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.

I disagree with this, because MitD is still not that wide for what the umbrella suggests. If he was a creature that grows more horizontally than vertically, as you suggest, that would still create a potentially greater problem for him to stay under the umbrella; since it would be harder for him to stay under the (relatively small) shadowy area that the umbrella provides.

I think early adolescence is a fair age category to place MitD in, but I'd caution against positing anything more concrete when our only judge of MitD's age seems to be his mental and emotional maturity. Elan is, still, just as immature as MitD acts, but as far as I know Elan is an adult human, so I'm not sure MitD's naivete makes good evidence for judging his age, given how many silly, immature adults appear in the comic.

As for judging in-comic sizes, does anyone know what kind of demon is summoned by Qarr on #584? It looks large enough to be Gargantuan, I'd say, but if we knew what its size is on its statblock, that could prove useful in gauging size for other creatures as far as their in-comic representation is concerned...

[halfeye]

The dark worm in the current (1160, 1159, 1158) comics is being said to be a Nightcrawler, but those are by the text people have found 7 ft in diameter and 100 ft long, the monster in the comics is big, but it's not that big, it's at most 25-35 ft long and about 4ft around, about the same height as the dwarf vampires.

I do like this monster as an alternate for the MitD, because it behaves a lot like him, I'm not sure whether it could coil up under the umbrella, I'd like to see it reveal eyes, that would make it a much better candidate.

[Elves]

I disagree with this, because MitD is still not that wide for what the umbrella suggests (+ low medium eye level).

Yeah, I guess you're right it is medium. I'll fix that statement then: Large isn't a con and Colossal may be pushing it. Huge and Gargantuan I still don't see any reason to object to. A complaint that compares its growth to human growth patterns is completely speculative and not enough to keep something off the list.

As for judging in-comic sizes, does anyone know what kind of demon is summoned by Qarr on #584? It looks large enough to be Gargantuan

Colossal or colossal+. (See Lien next to its foot here).

[Ruck]

On the basis of this quote it is totally reasonable to expect that the MITD is 1 size category smaller than the adult creature.

...

Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.

I think the people supporting Huge as a con are saying MitD is Medium now, and they expect it to grow to Large.

As for judging in-comic sizes, does anyone know what kind of demon is summoned by Qarr on #584? It looks large enough to be Gargantuan, I'd say, but if we knew what its size is on its statblock, that could prove useful in gauging size for other creatures as far as their in-comic representation is concerned...

I've seen it referred to a lot as a Pit Fiend, so I assumed that's what it was, but they are listed as Large and described as "about 12 feet tall and 800 pounds." Whatever Qarr summoned is... significantly bigger than that.

[CriticalFailure]

MiTD could currently be large though

[3Power]

I've seen it referred to a lot as a Pit Fiend, so I assumed that's what it was, but they are listed as Large and described as "about 12 feet tall and 800 pounds." Whatever Qarr summoned is... significantly bigger than that.

It's a strangely colossal pit fiend that is nevertheless somehow defeated by a level 15ish party. More proof that size is meaningless.

[Aspheric]

Yeah, I guess you're right it is medium. I'll fix that statement then: Colossal is probably too big (unless it's a famous grower like a dragon etc). Huge I still don't see any reason to object to, nor depending on the species Gargantuan. A complaint that compares its growth to human growth patterns is completely speculative and not enough to keep something off the list.

Er, what? I never said what size I thought it was, only that its width still must fit within the umbrella. If I had to guess, the MitD currently can't be any bigger than Large, regardless of what its actual proportions are or however big it may become. I wasn't objecting to Huge, or suggesting Medium, and I'm not sure where you extropolated this from my post, but I'm sorry if I suggested otherwise. (Also, may I request you not include things I didn't write in your quotes? It's a bit disorienting...)

Colossal or colossal+. (See Lien next to its foot here).

I've seen it referred to a lot as a Pit Fiend, so I assumed that's what it was, but they are listed as Large and described as "about 12 feet tall and 800 pounds." Whatever Qarr summoned is... significantly bigger than that.

Strange! Compared to Lien, I'm inclined to agree with Elves as far as the size goes, so maybe it's a different kind of devil/demon/whatever? I don't think size should be thrown completely out the window, even if MitD might be smaller than the usual size of his species.

[Elves]

I think the people supporting Huge as a con are saying MitD is Medium now, and they expect it to grow to Large.

But the main points are the same:

1) Cartoon visual logic trumps pedantic size measurement; eg the giant devil just being discussed
2) Judging his expected growth by comparison to human (or any mammal's) growth patterns is baseless
3) Even if it were in human terms, there's no evidence he's pubertal or adult

So I'll say Large doesn't have to be a con, but there's no evidence for calling Huge and even Garg cons, either.

[Crusher]

So I'll say Large doesn't have to be a con, but there's no evidence for calling Huge and even Garg cons, either.

I’m ok with making Huge no longer a Con, and while I think making Gargantuan or Colossal no longer Cons is too much of a stretch, I am ok with making them acceptable at all which is a significant change.

That having been said, its worth keeping in mind that STR gets scaled down as size reduces. So a Gargantuan creature is going to need to be REALLY strong.

Edit - also, just fyi I’m out of town on my phone and a but busy so I won’t be able to get the voting caught up until this weekend or early next week.

[Doug Lampert]

I’m ok with making Huge no longer a Con, and while I think making Gargantuan or Colossal no longer Cons is too much of a stretch, I am ok with making them acceptable at all which is a significant change.

That having been said, its worth keeping in mind that STR gets scaled down as size reduces. So a Gargantuan creature is going to need to be REALLY strong.

Edit - also, just fyi I’m out of town on my phone and a but busy so I won’t be able to get the voting caught up until this weekend or early next week.

Yep, I don't consider Gargantuan or Huge a con, but for Huge I wand the strength to be 38+, and for Gargantuan I want the strength to be 46+, because strength does scale with size. Yes, there are ways to reduce size that don't reduce strength by a full 8 points, but then 30 is pretty minimal strength already.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

I think it’s unlikely we see them at the beginning of the next, just because it’s rare for the books to start out with Team Evil and not the Order. I would put more odds on seeing them before this book wraps up, but I kind of feel that The Giant will just want to get this arc finished without also throwing them in. I’m open to convincing otherwise, however!

[Jineon]

Waiting for a Team Evil appearance, we can settle for the little clues we have.

I'm still trying to understand the art of the Escape scene (the glowing eyes). That's not how magic usually works and Laurin's psionics didn't really work that way either.

#1160 has:
- a spell-like ability cast without speaking its name (no eyes, so neither glow nor no-glow);
- Roy's eyes glowing when using his sword's powers;
- Durkon's eyes not glowing when using the returning property of his hammer.

Do the powers of an ancestral weapon come from the bearer rather than the weapon? Would Durkon's eyes not glow because he's using his weapon's magic while Roy's eyes do because the magic he uses comes from him (and is channeled in some way through the weapon)?

The color of the eyes and the glowing when using magic seems somewhat inconsistent to me and I can't really see a pattern there. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and this is just some artistic glitter ink on some magic effects thrown in for awesomeness sake.

[Ruck]

But the main points are the same:

1) Cartoon visual logic trumps pedantic size measurement; eg the giant devil just being discussed
2) Judging his expected growth by comparison to human (or any mammal's) growth patterns is baseless
3) Even if it were in human terms, there's no evidence he's pubertal or adult

So I'll say Large doesn't have to be a con, but there's no evidence for calling Huge and even Garg cons, either.

1) I don't agree with. Rich has specifically said "It is possible to guess" what the MitD is; all his statements on the subject indicate the clues he gives in strip are consistent with the species of the character. I fully disagree that he will provide inaccurate details of MitD's species then handwave those details away with "It's cartoon logic."

2) We can judge his expected growth by how species tend to grow in D&D, though.

3) I'm not sure what your point is, but we're making the best assumptions we can about MitD's relative age and state of maturation based on what we've seen of him in the comic.

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

I think it’s unlikely we see them at the beginning of the next, just because it’s rare for the books to start out with Team Evil and not the Order. I would put more odds on seeing them before this book wraps up, but I kind of feel that The Giant will just want to get this arc finished without also throwing them in. I’m open to convincing otherwise, however!

I think we're pretty likely to get one more scene of Team Evil in the denouement, an update on their progress. Wouldn't bet on much more than that, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think we're pretty likely to get one more scene of Team Evil in the denouement, an update on their progress. Wouldn't bet on much more than that, though.

I think we already got the "update on progress" scene for Team Evil for this book. I'd expect the next we meet them would be at the start of the next book, to re-center the narrative on them.

But I cannot discard a "breakthrough" moment at the end of this book either sort of like the "Next stop, Azure City" splash page.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

Can he be a creature from a children folklore and fairy tales?

I tried to use Akinator to try if it finds out who MitD can be. Of course, the first result was Monster in the Dark, so I chose this as "wrong" answer, and kept on guessing.
So, after about 70 questions, Akinator twice gave the "Boogeyman" answer. At this stage, I stopped, and moved to Wikipedia.
And, I found out about creature named "Coco".

Yes. An interesting find, and I'm sorry you are buried in yet another fruitless* discussion about sizes.

Waiting for a Team Evil appearance, we can settle for the little clues we have.

I'm still trying to understand the art of the Escape scene (the glowing eyes). That's not how magic usually works and Laurin's psionics didn't really work that way either.

#1160 has:
- a spell-like ability cast without speaking its name (no eyes, so neither glow nor no-glow);
- Roy's eyes glowing when using his sword's powers;
- Durkon's eyes not glowing when using the returning property of his hammer.

Do the powers of an ancestral weapon come from the bearer rather than the weapon? Would Durkon's eyes not glow because he's using his weapon's magic while Roy's eyes do because the magic he uses comes from him (and is channeled in some way through the weapon)?

The color of the eyes and the glowing when using magic seems somewhat inconsistent to me and I can't really see a pattern there. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and this is just some artistic glitter ink on some magic effects thrown in for awesomeness sake.

The legacy item description could be taken to describe a power that develops within oneself with the item as a focal point. So I wouldn't think it too much of a stretch to get to 'glowing eyes mean an internal power unlike cleric, wizard or sorcerer spells or psionic abilities or abilities embedded directly within an item'. Not sure if there is an index of 'glowing eye' occurrences; I can't dig deeper until after work. But I like this line of thinking.

* "fruitless" because no one seems to be changing anyone else's mind, the size limit for the FBS was just voted on, and the FBS doesn't really matter in the end. If I get bored tonight I'm going to work on a replacement suggestion I just thought of...

[monomer]

In regards to size vs age, for snakes in particular, the only decent resource I've found is this chart on a Ball (or Royal) Python forum. It basically shows the ball python at roughly 180 grams at 4 months of age, growing up to 1800 grams by about 35 months, or a 10x growth from childhood to elderly.

According to Wikipedia, in the wild, male royal pythons reach sexual maturity at 11-18 months, but don't generally start breeding until at about 600g, which according to the above referenced chart is at roughly 11-months old. It also notes that in captivity some Ball Pythons have begun breeding at 300-400g, which is about 8-10 moths of age.

Now, making a bunch of wild assumptions, it seems like they reach puberty at around 8, and adulthood around 11. If we consider the MitD as pre-pubescent, though not a newborn or young child (let's say equivalent to a 6-month old, ~200g ball python), then a 10x change in size isn't out of the realms of possibility. So that accounts for one whole size class, if it were to follow an Earth snake-like growth. Extrapolating that to D&D doesn't really work that great, since monsters can live for thousands of years, and if they never stop growing, similar to snakes or dragons, then they could conceivably reach larger and larger size classes.

For the Ha-Naga, The Epic Handbook fluff is not really indicative of how old they are, or even what their reproductive cycle is like. Serpent Kingdoms, however, notes (page 25) that Ha-Nagas came about from some Dark and Spirit Nagas seeking out ancient Sarrukh rituals and transforming themselves into Ha-Nagas.

Another interesting note from Serpent Kingdoms (page 26) says that Nagas are hermaphroditic and are capable of reproduction through either self-fertilization or copulation with another Naga, depending on the individual's preference. The young are raised by their parent until they are strong enough to survive on their own, at which point the parent leaves for good.

[Ruck]

I think we already got the "update on progress" scene for Team Evil for this book. I'd expect the next we meet them would be at the start of the next book, to re-center the narrative on them.

But I cannot discard a "breakthrough" moment at the end of this book either sort of like the "Next stop, Azure City" splash page.

Grey Wolf

I think that would count. The previous scene of Team Evil we'd seen at that point was of Xykon and Redcloak locating Serini's diary and discovering just how large their hobgoblin army was; the next time we saw them, they'd decided on a course for which Gate to target next and had mobilized the army.

Something similar at the end of this book might be that they actually discover Kraagor's Gate, or discover something else that changes their course of action.

[CriticalFailure]

Hasn’t this current one had the least Team Evil appearances so far? It would make sense for them to come up again.