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  1. - Top - End - #1471
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Pandora saying that Tedd will be able to cast the spells he copies and Arthur casting a sleep spell without a wand suggest otherwise.
    Arthur was wearing a conspicious ring that he has never been seen to wear before or since when casting that sleep spell.

    The ring is a wand. It's small because it's for Arthur to use, who has a boatload of magic energy he can use to power it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  2. - Top - End - #1472
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    On a completely different note, any good ideas for thd next thread titld? Aside from El Goonish ShiVe, obviously.

    If the Master of Fire guy had made an apperance by now, I would suggest Uuroyms Strike Back, but that doesn't quite work here.
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    Since the change in fairy law will probably be important in the next bit.

  3. - Top - End - #1473
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Not exactly. They can create conduits for spells, but they can't power the spell themselves. They need wands (or, in Arthur's case, a ring) to power the spells.

    A seer can grab any spell they see, same as any wizard, but they need a wand or similar apparatus to actually cast it. The fact that they innately understand any spell they see on a deeper level than even the original caster just makes them even more dangerous.

    So apparently I was half wrong. I was pretty sure Camdin wasn't a wizard, and that he was Smoke, therefore Smoke wasn't a wizard. In truth, Camdin wasn't a wizard, but Smoke was, therefore Smoke wasn't Camdin... Darn it all, I was kinda hoping for that cookie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Arthur was wearing a conspicious ring that he has never been seen to wear before or since when casting that sleep spell.

    The ring is a wand. It's small because it's for Arthur to use, who has a boatload of magic energy he can use to power it.
    There is no visual effect or indication of any kind that the ring is anything but a ring.

    Arther himself refers to himself as "A wizard with a Quirk" not "a wizard who can only cast spells with wands" and Pandora telling Tedd that she'll be able to cast spells is a stupid statement to make if she was only talking about Tedd being able to use wands(If using a wand counts as casting a spell than literally everyone can cast spells.)

    Also, the fact that Noriko dind't abandon Van strongly suggests that Van has some way of casting spells.
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  4. - Top - End - #1474
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    There is no visual effect or indication of any kind that the ring is anything but a ring.

    Arther himself refers to himself as "A wizard with a Quirk" not "a wizard who can only cast spells with wands" and Pandora telling Tedd that she'll be able to cast spells is a stupid statement to make if she was only talking about Tedd being able to use wands(If using a wand counts as casting a spell than literally everyone can cast spells.)

    Also, the fact that Noriko dind't abandon Van strongly suggests that Van has some way of casting spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  5. - Top - End - #1475
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    There is no visual effect or indication of any kind that the ring is anything but a ring.

    Arther himself refers to himself as "A wizard with a Quirk" not "a wizard who can only cast spells with wands" and Pandora telling Tedd that she'll be able to cast spells is a stupid statement to make if she was only talking about Tedd being able to use wands(If using a wand counts as casting a spell than literally everyone can cast spells.)

    Also, the fact that Noriko dind't abandon Van strongly suggests that Van has some way of casting spells.
    Dude, Tedd's favored flavor of "wand" is a novelty toy watch. And a wand would make a very poor low profile magic implement, wouldn't it? Edward favors wands, but Arthur is the godfather of low key.

    Noriko not ditching Van is something I do want to see furthered, but it needs to be pointed out she tried to have a second kid and ended up with the same result. Eventually you learn a lesson on the definition of insanity. Perhaps, on the other hand, Van wasn't as intimidated by the sensor wand as Tedd was and didn't shut the spell down.
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  6. - Top - End - #1476
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Arthur probably has nipple piercings. It's always the ones you don't expect.
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  7. - Top - End - #1477
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Yeah, I'm clearly not going to convince you, but you are wrong about the capabilities of Seers.
    Yeah, that's...I have to wonder what Rater202 thinks a seer is. Strictly a wizard-plus, I guess.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Arthur probably has nipple piercings. It's always the ones you don't expect.
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  9. - Top - End - #1479
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Yeah, that's...I have to wonder what Rater202 thinks a seer is. Strictly a wizard-plus, I guess.
    Per the comic itself, Seers do not gain spells "of their own."

    Seers are ridiculously powerful--Per Pandora, they're fonts of magical energy, which may imply that their power is infinite or at least rapidly and passivly replenishing.

    Their massive Raw Power comes with a massive resistance--Tedd as a Baby was able to instinctively repel the magic sensing spell in his wand and he can disenchant himself at will.

    Seers are the only people who can make wands naturally--there are presumably wands, spells, or instruction manuals made by seers for mass procution or something.

    Seers are a kind of Wizard, per Heka, Pandora, and Magic itself, Arthur's "wizard with a Quirk" assumption is accurate. We can thus infer that they have all the qualities of wizards unless otherwise stated--Those qualities are that you are born as a wizard, that Wizards "may or may not" get spells of their own, but that they can copy spells out of other people's books(per a Q&A) and by seeing those spells cast enough times. Infering from Smoke, at least some wizards can tell if the magic effect they see isn't a spell. Per Arthur, wizards have to awaken before they can cast spells.

    Seers can see Magic.

    Seers can not only copy spells on sight but can intuitively understand how magic works and imbue magical effects they understand into wands--this presumably extended to all systems of magic since all of Tedd's wands were based on Uryuom shapeshifting magic. This abillity is so powerful and/or versitile that it can even be used on itself.

    Tedd, in particular, is good at doing Seer stuff--most Seers wouldn't be able to make his wand-making glove, per Pandora.

    Per Pandora before she learned what seers were, Tedd had no ability to awaken his power

    Per Pandora--after she went to Heka to get exact information on Tedd's deal--Tedd will be able to cast spells. Her exact words were, at first, thet Tedd "can not cast spells on [his] own" but later says that "You, you, will be able to cast it, for you area well of power."

    That last bit is important. Pandora puts emphasis on Tedd being able to cast spells.

    And here, we leave facts for speculation.

    Per Tedd, magic marks don't count as "you" casting the spell and that presumably extends to Wands.

    Furthermore, Arthur states that Wizards have to awaken before they can cast spells.

    Arthur thouht he was a wizard prior to being called by Magic.

    He is presumably including himself in the category of Wizards who have awakened.

    Conclusion: Seers are born dreaming and Wand-making, magic seeing, and being a potentially infinite font of magic are what they can do before they Awaken.

    Which means that Tedd--and by extention other Seers--can cast spells, if they awaken, albeit no spells of their own.

    Of course, the problem comes from Pandora's pre-learning-from-Heka statement that Tedd can't awaken... Meaning that Tedd might not be able to Awaken on his own or by any method Pandora knew of at the time. Heka may have explained how Seers can awaken, but Pandora obviously never got the chance topass this information onto Tedd and she might not remember it when she reforms.

    But Arthur presumably awakened based on his statement and beliefs about himself, so...

    does my thought process make sense now that I've explained it?
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  10. - Top - End - #1480
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I think that you're taking a few statements far more literally than they were intended, and not allowing for the flexibility of meaning that common conversational phrasing has. For example, I would 100% consider "can make and then use a wand of any spell he's seen" to fit the description "wizard with a quirk", and Tedd needing nothing more than any random piece of junk to do it to fit the statement that Tedd will be able to cast spells he's seen.

    When what you need outside of your own abilities to cause a spell effect to take place is literally any portable object, the distinction between that and not needing anything at all is little more than a technicality, rarely worth mentioning in conversation.
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  11. - Top - End - #1481
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    The exact wording Pandora used is not as flexible as you think it is.

    She said "you"(Tedd) three times while putting emphasis on it twice. That can only mean that she's talking about Tedd specifically.

    Also, there's no indication that Tedd can turn literally anything into a Wand--so far we have a literal high-quality wand and a bunch of toy watches that he converted into gadgets based on the alien magitech that he's intimatly familiar with.
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  12. - Top - End - #1482
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Pandora's use of "you" in that scene is not the only spot of flexibility. She could easily have used "cast" to mean "cause the spell to happen", and Tedd's demonstrated abilities are already enough to go from having nothing magical around at all to having the spell take effect in just a few moments.

    As far as I recall, the only thing that actually has a confirmation of being relevant in any way about the object used is its size, and that's just that bigger things can hold more magical energy. Meanwhile, the choice of toy arcade prize watches pretty strongly implies to me that he could have used anything, as the only apparent reasons to pick those are price and unobtrusive convenience for carrying them around.
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  13. - Top - End - #1483
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The exact wording Pandora used is not as flexible as you think it is.

    She said "you"(Tedd) three times while putting emphasis on it twice. That can only mean that she's talking about Tedd specifically.

    Also, there's no indication that Tedd can turn literally anything into a Wand--so far we have a literal high-quality wand and a bunch of toy watches that he converted into gadgets based on the alien magitech that he's intimatly familiar with.
    The implication was pretty clear that Tedd's work on the technology side of things did nothing and was a complete waste of time, that the sole reason the watches worked was because he was subconsciously enchanting them as wands.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    The implication was pretty clear that Tedd's work on the technology side of things did nothing and was a complete waste of time, that the sole reason the watches worked was because he was subconsciously enchanting them as wands.
    Tedd was using a computer to customize his transformation spells and the Glove did do things, it just wasn't doing as much as Tedd thought it did.

    PerPandora, Tedd invented a new way to customize spells for Wands.

    Ergo, the tech was doing something.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    My read based on stories like "Playing with Dolls", is that instead of needing to know a spell, Tedd can just build spells up from first principles so to speak. Tedd only needs their wits to do what ever they want within the few limitations of Magic.

  16. - Top - End - #1486
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    My read based on stories like "Playing with Dolls", is that instead of needing to know a spell, Tedd can just build spells up from first principles so to speak. Tedd only needs their wits to do what ever they want within the few limitations of Magic.
    The disagreement here, as far as I can tell, is whether Tedd needs a device of some sort to put a spell in before he can cast that spell--or can just cast spells from his bare hands like Agent Wolf and other wizards without the "actually a seer" quirk.

  17. - Top - End - #1487
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Tedd can customize spells essentially making the spells Tedd's own. He can then put those spells in something like his watches (which, due to not being proper wands, won't work for normal people without the magic buildup) and cast them. In this sense Tedd is casting his own spell. I have never seen anything in the comic to contradict this interpretation and have seen several things that support it (which people have already discussed.)

    What he cannot do is cast those customized spells without a device to act as a focus. If he could he would have done that already as he has both the raw magical energy and the experience around magic to do so. The quirk to this type of wizard is simply that they need a focus. That really could be qualified as a quirk and nothing more if you don't know everything about a seer. No wizard casts their own spells in the sense that a non-wizard caster would (i.e. natutally developing spells that are based off their desires and/or innate talent (unless you count learning spells the innate talent) and only grows as your strength in magic does).
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2019-02-23 at 07:49 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #1488
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Again, Pandora's exact wording "You, You Tedd, will cast it," in the context she's saying it in, that of reassuring Tedd that he never has to worry about losing his cool stuff, strongly indicates that while Seers do not innately have the ability to cast spells that they are capable of gaining the power to do so without having to create an object to cast the spell for them(which is how Wands work--theWand casts the spell either from your energy or the energy in the wand)

    Pandora's words, after having exactly what Seers are explained to her, are "You cannot cast spells" and "You will cast it."

    These are mutually exclusive statements if you take them as both being absolute, but if you take the first as being present tense and the second as being Future tense...

    Again, when Arthur is explaining Wizards to Ashley he states that she will have to Awaken before she casts spells, emphasis mine. If Wizards have to Awaken, and Arthur himself didn't realize he was anything but a wizard, albeit, with a gimmick, we can conclude that Arthur himself has awakened.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    A wand cannot cast a spell anymore than a computer can type out this reply. If someone uses a wand to cast a spell they are still the one casting the spell, not the inanimate piece of wood. Just as I am the one typing out these words. It is not something my computer can do of its own accord, I simply type them through my computer. Saying a seer can cast their own spells is the same as saying a programer can run their own programs. Which is something someone could say and believe even if you want to nitpick the wording.


    Edit: Also Kevin doesn't count for the purposes of this argument.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2019-02-23 at 08:21 PM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Per Tedd, using the Magic Mark to change sex doesn't count as Tedd casting the spell.

    If using a Magic Mark doesn't count, then a Wand doesn't count.

    And the Watches aren't treated as counting, either, and the Watches are wands.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Per Tedd, using the Magic Mark to change sex doesn't count as Tedd casting the spell.

    If using a Magic Mark doesn't count, then a Wand doesn't count.

    And the Watches aren't treated as counting, either, and the Watches are wands.
    That's what Tedd said. Pandaora said another thing.

    Edit: Also I don't believe Tedd was taking customizing spells into account. The mark spell is not customized, it is basically designed by the immortal that made it even if there were limits to what spell they could give.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2019-02-23 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    That's what Tedd said. Pandaora said another thing.

    Edit: Also I don't believe Tedd was taking customizing spells into account. The mark spell is not customized, it is basically designed by the immortal that made it even if there were limits to what spell they could give.
    Quote Pandora say that Tedd using the Magic Mark is Tedd casting the Spell.

    All Pandora said is that Tedd will cast the Magic that he's learned, and Tedd, who has a vested interest in magic, says that using a Magic Mark doesn't count as "his" spell as far as casting it goes.
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  23. - Top - End - #1493
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Again, Pandora's exact wording "You, You Tedd, will cast it," in the context she's saying it in, that of reassuring Tedd that he never has to worry about losing his cool stuff, strongly indicates that while Seers do not innately have the ability to cast spells that they are capable of gaining the power to do so without having to create an object to cast the spell for them(which is how Wands work--theWand casts the spell either from your energy or the energy in the wand)
    Yes, she is telling Tedd that he never has to worry about losing his cool stuff. In the very same conversation, just moments before, she tells him that the ability to make his cool stuff is innately his. I rather doubt those two things are unrelated. She's telling him that it doesn't matter if he loses his cool stuff because he can replace it in moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Pandora's words, after having exactly what Seers are explained to her, are "You cannot cast spells" and "You will cast it."

    These are mutually exclusive statements if you take them as both being absolute, but if you take the first as being present tense and the second as being Future tense...
    They are also compatible if you take the second use of "cast" to mean "cause to happen", as I have already suggested. That kind of variation in meaning of the same word by the same person in the same conversation is a normal thing that happens so often it's usually not even noticed, with listeners inferring the difference in meaning based on the context, even when the only difference is in how strictly literal the speaker is being.

    For supporting evidence, a short time later Pandora tells Tedd to look at the wand "while you cast it", and also in the next sentence to make sure "that you are casting the spell with the wand".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Again, when Arthur is explaining Wizards to Ashley he states that she will have to Awaken before she casts spells, emphasis mine. If Wizards have to Awaken, and Arthur himself didn't realize he was anything but a wizard, albeit, with a gimmick, we can conclude that Arthur himself has awakened.
    Awakening is mostly a matter of just getting enough power, which Seers naturally have in abundance. I would guess that, whenever someone got around to checking him, Arthur was simply diagnosed as having already Awakened, and he never had reason to question that. The standard means of checking whether someone has Awakened was explicitly stated in its introduction to have things that would make it give a false positive. If Grace would read as Awakened just because she has a lot of Uryuom energy and the ability to use it, I would expect a Seer who's seen some real magic to get the same result, provided of course that they don't resist the analysis spell as Tedd did.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2019-02-23 at 11:00 PM.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I would give my vote (if applicable) to:

    El Goonish ShiVIe: Magic. Magic Never Changes.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adaon Nightwind View Post
    I would give my vote (if applicable) to:

    El Goonish ShiVIe: Magic. Magic Never Changes.
    Change it to ShiVe, and I think that's OK. Probably better than "360 degree table flip" (which is what this change was).

  26. - Top - End - #1496
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    Rater202's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Well, I submitted the "you will cast it" question for consideration in the upcoming Q&A.

    No guarantee that Dan will actually answer it--especially if it goes into spoiler territory--but it's our best chance for getting an answer anytime soon.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Meteor
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    Way down the air
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Well, I submitted the "you will cast it" question for consideration in the upcoming Q&A.

    No guarantee that Dan will actually answer it--especially if it goes into spoiler territory--but it's our best chance for getting an answer anytime soon.
    What phrasing did you use? If we're trying to get an official answer, best make sure we're communicating the point of the question as clearly as possible.
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  28. - Top - End - #1498
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    Rater202's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    I asked what Pandora meant when she said "you will cast it" while referring to the spells that Tedd can copy and create, specified that some individuals thought she simply meant the wands, then my own thoughts citing the in-comic statements that Magic Marks didn't count as "you" casting the spell and if something that's imbued in your body ad a representation of "you" doesn't count that a wand shouldn't either. I finished by mentioning Arthur's sleep spell(and the theorizing that the ring was a wand) for context.

    I dare say that if Dan chooses to answer, that it'll likely be edited down to some degree as I can be quite wordy.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  29. - Top - End - #1499
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    This storyline is pretty interesting in a meta kind of way. The author's commentary repeatedly talks about home much he hates the "drama because nobody talks to anybody" trope, and here we see Grace dealing with a "This would go so well if I was allowed to talk about things" freakout.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

    Magic Users in EGS, barring some Wizards, get spells based on their personalities, what they're doing during the time between "level-ups," and any natural affinities they have.

    Shouldn't... Shouldn't Susan already have a cleans-things spell?
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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