Haley Teaches the 36 Stratagems (Ongoing Project)

[Ruck]

I'm confused; Haley isn't even in that strip.

I'm also confused, because that is not the strip I linked. I'm guessing my phone "corrected" the URL once again. The strip I was trying to reference was this one.

[bt109]

I'm also confused, because that is not the strip I linked. I'm guessing my phone "corrected" the URL once again. The strip I was trying to reference was this one.

Ah, I wondered if that was the one! It's tempting to call that for #9, but it's really not the best example. While she briefly suggests that the Azurites could stay and fight without them, her behavior before and after indicates that she preferred to remain their ally. #9 best fits a situation where two forces are fighting, and one or both invite her to be their ally, but she declines or delays to see who gets the upper hand. "You fellows have at each other, I'm sitting this out for now."

[bt109]

Alright, I think I caught everyone's suggestions, and there's links to everything. Lots of these are open to discussion, so feel free to comment if you see anything you disagree with.

Anyone have any favorite dirty tricks to offer up for sorting?

[RickDaily12]

8) Cut a mountain path, but take the secret passage
Did she ever make it look like she was doing something the hard way, so the enemy would let their guard down?

I'm sure the hobgoblins thought running away would be easier for her, especially right before that tower came down.

9) Watch fires burning across the river
Did she ever conserve her strength by withholding help to someone? Watch two parties fight while helping neither?

Yes, and she had to play it cool too, to avoid Tarquin from catching on.

10) Hide a dagger behind a smile

So, my understanding is that the true meaning behind this stratagem is "charm your opponent while plotting behind their back in secret". If true, then this is again basically any scene that involved Haley being in the same room with Tarquin.

She's civil enough during a moment like this, while she's more than happy to secretly undermine her enemy the very next day...

13) Stomp the grass to scare the snake
Do something unusual, strange, and unexpected to arouse the enemy's suspicion and disrupt their thinking.

How about telling your hated enemy that you're going to miss something about them out of the blue? Pique their curiosity so much that they unwittingly follow you to their certain doom.

16) In order to capture, one must let loose
To prevent the enemy from making a final desperate attack, let them believe they still have a chance for freedom, and their will to fight is hampered by their desire to escape.

Okay, so, hear me out...

What if acting like she was allowing the chimera to escape was part of an elaborate ruse?

17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem
This is where you bait someone by making them believe they gain something valuable ("toss out a brick") to obtain something valuable from them in return ("get a jade gem").

Deliberately without going into great detail about what the "brick" here is, the "jade gem" I'd argue is her freedom.

19) Remove the firewood from under the pot
Take out the leading argument or asset of someone; "steal someone's thunder". This is the essence of the indirect approach: instead of attacking enemy's fighting forces, direct attacks against their ability to wage war. Literally, take the fuel out of the fire.

For example, when your enemy is trying to kill you and your friends using the power of deception, rob them of the ability to deceive you.

22) Shut the door to catch the thief
Cut off your enemy's routes of escape or reinforcement.

Which she does here, by tasking the party's sadistic murderer with killing any remaining enemies that managed to escape her and the wizard.

23) Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor
Nations separated by distance and obstacles make good allies.

Well, she certainly TRIED to pit two rebelling nations against the oppressive ruling one on multiple occasions...

24) Obtain safe passage
Use borrowed resources against the one that lent you them.

Just asking for a friend: under a typical Rogue's code of conduct, this counts as "borrowing", right?

27) Feign madness but keep your balance
Hide behind a mask of foolishness to create confusion.

This again.

31) The honey trap
Send your enemy beautiful gifts to cause discord within his camp.

Not really sure if it was her plan to begin with, or if it even matters, since she was still part of this...

[PontificatusRex]

Well, when Haley lured Crystal to the volcano it can qualify as a lot of these strategies, but it seems to be an example of 10) Hide a dagger behind a smile more than anything.

[bt109]

Well, when Haley lured Crystal to the volcano it can qualify as a lot of these strategies, but it seems to be an example of 10) Hide a dagger behind a smile more than anything.

Yeah, I had 981 in that position originally, but it's also the best example of #28 I can find, so I moved it hoping to find another #10. I was originally thinking that having one in both places was a bad thing, but that's just leading to too many complications. Both places it is, AND it's a chain stratagem. I can't help it if she's awesome so often.

[KorvinStarmast]

I can't help it if she's awesome so often.

Yeah, brings a lot to the party. (Yes, pun intended).

[Kornaki]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Watching fires burn across the river. Almost literally true here.

[DaOldeWolf]

17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem
This is where you bait someone by making them believe they gain something valuable ("toss out a brick") to obtain something valuable from them in return ("get a jade gem").

I think 129 is a good example for this one. She tricks them into taking rocks for treasure.

[bt109]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Watching fires burn across the river. Almost literally true here.

Yes, others have said that, but I'm not seeing it. Watching the fires burn is about allowing two enemies to fight it out while you remain neutral as long as possible. Not only has she not been neutral, but she's not faced with a choice of changing sides here, only of fighting vs. running.

[Kornaki]

Yes, others have said that, but I'm not seeing it. Watching the fires burn is about allowing two enemies to fight it out while you remain neutral as long as possible. Not only has she not been neutral, but she's not faced with a choice of changing sides here, only of fighting vs. running.

Well your original post asked if she ever conserved strength by withholding help to someone. But I agree if it's specifically about letting other people wear each other out this doesn't work.

Maybe you could do something with Haley letting crystal expend her strength raiding grubblewhathisname's place, then shanking her in the shower.

[MilleniaAntares]

Nice list!

5) Loot a burning house
This means to take fullest advantage of any misfortune that befalls your enemy. Catching Crystal unarmed in the shower in 648 is an excellent example of this.

The link to 648 leads to 618 instead. You might want to fix it.

[Draconi Redfir]

5) Loot a burning house
This means to take fullest advantage of any misfortune that befalls your enemy. Catching Crystal unarmed in the shower in 648 is an excellent example of this.

you got the wrong link here. This is the correct one.

[RickDaily12]

Yes, others have said that, but I'm not seeing it. Watching the fires burn is about allowing two enemies to fight it out while you remain neutral as long as possible. Not only has she not been neutral, but she's not faced with a choice of changing sides here, only of fighting vs. running.

Can you cite to me where exactly the stratagem states both parties having to be enemies? Or where Haley has to switch sides in the battle? This is the trope as I've located it.

This is the trope as you've written it:

9) Watch fires burning across the river
Did she ever conserve her strength by withholding help to someone? Watch two parties fight while helping neither?

This is the trope as they have written it:

When there are multiple combatants, let others fight one another until they are exhausted, then march in with a fresh force to win the final battle.
This can also be used when you are in an alliance by putting the allies in the front or giving them the harder battles to fight.

I again present this strip (or its following) as an example that satisfies both texts.

Not only does she remain neutral during this fight, she must appear this way, to avoid letting Tarquin become wise to why they need to leave, which is another complex part to the whole conflict. Reading further in the text you've given, and that I've cited, this only seems to fit appropriately under the circumstances.

[georgie_leech]

Can you cite to me where exactly the stratagem states both parties having to be enemies? Or where Haley has to switch sides in the battle? This is the trope as I've located it.

This is the trope as you've written it:


This is the trope as they have written it:


I again present this strip (or its following) as an example that satisfies both texts.

Not only does she remain neutral during this fight, she must appear this way, to avoid letting Tarquin become wise to why they need to leave, which is another complex part to the whole conflict. Reading further in the text you've given, and that I've cited, this only seems to fit appropriately under the circumstances.

I'm gonna submit that the strategem has more to do with achieving military/political goals at the expense of others, not your own team mates. Otherwise Sun Tzu's advice becomes trivial in a warfare context, as you've got soldiers fighting, not you. There's a distinction between you/your resources and your allies in the sense of groups, not in the sense of "this person is my ally because we're on the same team."

That is, her literal team mates fighting a battle with their enemies doesn't qualify as watching fires burn across the river, especially when she immediately moves to the other side of the river to try and figure out what her enemies are doing (she skedaddles to get intel but is ambushed and turned to stone by said enemies). That's just being in the fight.

[RickDaily12]

I'm gonna submit that the strategem has more to do with achieving military/political goals at the expense of others, not your own team mates. Otherwise Sun Tzu's advice becomes trivial in a warfare context, as you've got soldiers fighting, not you. There's a distinction between you/your resources and your allies in the sense of groups, not in the sense of "this person is my ally because we're on the same team."

That is, her literal team mates fighting a battle with their enemies doesn't qualify as watching fires burn across the river, especially when she immediately moves to the other side of the river to try and figure out what her enemies are doing (she skedaddles to get intel but is ambushed and turned to stone by said enemies). That's just being in the fight.

I'd be more inclined to agree if an example of the text were not "send an ally to fight on the front/ a harder fight", while also appearing neutral. Also, the fight she strictly remains neutral in is the fight between Roy and Thog, which she successfully appears neutral as such; she cannot intervene in this battle at all (thus she isn't "crossing the river" in that exact battle), but she can prepare against an ambush from other Linear Guild forces.

And remember, Sun Tzu's advice isn't always to take the most direct approach from a fighting perspective. There's plenty of subtle maneuvers he lists in these 36 tactics, more passive, yet shrewdly clever moves. This is a particular one I think we can suggest he's saying you can be more subtle in compared to others.

[Peelee]

I agree that 788 is not a good example of that. Haley is not sending anyone to anything; the fight is already happening, so the "send an ally" is out. The fight is between her own teammates and the Linear Guild, so she is not letting another party fight while she waits for them to be weakened, she is a part of the party herself. She is not in a position to just jump in or strategically wait - she is a guest at a state function in a state where the most minor crimes are prosecuted with effective death sentences. She can hardly be expected to join in on Roy vs Thog. And she herself tries to engage with other members of the Linear Guild as soon as she can.

This is, in effect, as unlike that stratagem as it could be.

[Fyraltari]

And remember, Sun Tzu's advice isn't always to take the most direct approach from a fighting perspective. There's plenty of subtle maneuvers he lists in these 36 tactics, more passive, yet shrewdly clever moves. This is a particular one I think we can suggest he's saying you can be more subtle in compared to others.

Master Sun is the author of Sun Tzu's Art of War, also sometimes called The Twelve Scrolls. The Thirty-Six Stratagems was penned by Tan Daoji.

[RickDaily12]

Master Sun is the author of Sun Tzu's Art of War, also sometimes called The Twelve Scrolls. The Thirty-Six Stratagems was penned by Tan Daoji.

Okay, thanks, but my response here was to someone else who credited Sun Tzu first in the context of this stratagem. So, the same, just substitute Tan Daoji's name then.

I agree that 788 is not a good example of that. Haley is not sending anyone to anything; the fight is already happening, so the "send an ally" is out. The fight is between her own teammates and the Linear Guild, so she is not letting another party fight while she waits for them to be weakened, she is a part of the party herself. She is not in a position to just jump in or strategically wait - she is a guest at a state function in a state where the most minor crimes are prosecuted with effective death sentences. She can hardly be expected to join in on Roy vs Thog. And she herself tries to engage with other members of the Linear Guild as soon as she can.

This is, in effect, as unlike that stratagem as it could be.

Haley is going out of her way to give the appearance of neutrality in the Roy vs Thog towards Tarquin, though. She makes it clear to V and Elan also that they can't intervene in that particular fight at all. It's the appearance of neutrality of the fight only between Roy and Thog I'd suggest doesn't violate the spirit of the stratagem, even if the reality is that the Order realizes that an ambush with the remaining members of the Linear Guild was incoming. I don't really care about the rest of the members of the Linear Guild, though; I'm focusing only on the conflict between Roy and Thog here. The stratagem calls for an appearance of neutrality in the face of a battle in front of you, and that was what Haley/the others were forced to do here.

Now, in complete fairness, you're right- I'm doubtful a world exists that Haley/Elan/V do anything extra regardless of how that fight resolves, were they to stay and watch Roy and Thog's fight, but is that a necessary element of this particular stratagem? If no, then I think what they did qualifies as this, but if yes, then fine, we can move on.

[Peelee]

Okay, thanks, but my response here was to someone else who credited Sun Tzu first in the context of this stratagem. So, the same, just substitute Tan Daoji's name then.



Haley is going out of her way to give the appearance of neutrality in the Roy vs Thog towards Tarquin, though. She makes it clear to V and Elan also that they can't intervene in that particular fight at all. It's the appearance of neutrality of the fight only between Roy and Thog I'd suggest doesn't violate the spirit of the stratagem, even if the reality is that the Order realizes that an ambush with the remaining members of the Linear Guild was incoming. I don't really care about the rest of the members of the Linear Guild, though; I'm focusing only on the conflict between Roy and Thog here. The stratagem calls for an appearance of neutrality in the face of a battle in front of you, and that was what Haley/the others were forced to do here.

That's fair, but that also pulls a third (or fourth, depending) part into the mix, and a second enemy that is not involved in the fight, which makes it a significantly more complex situation.

Im old, so Halo: Combat Evolved reference here: I see that stratagem as the Final Run segment in Keys, where the Covenant and Flood are fighting each other and you can bypass them as they duke it out amongst themselves or wait until one of them has won and have an easier time picking off the survivors.

In this case, Haley has no interest at all in fighting, does not want both the fighters to whittle themselves down, and is only appearing impartial to a completely separate party who is pretty clearly an enemy, even if she needs to feign peace at the moment. I get where you're coming from, it's just this situation has way more variables and relationships between parties, and I think a simpler and more direct example would be better.

[bt109]

Alright, I think I have the original post up to date with everyone's suggestions. We're down to the final ten, now highlighted for your convenience! What other cool tricks can you find?

[Fyraltari]

Alright, I think I have the original post up to date with everyone's suggestions. We're down to the final ten, now highlighted for your convenience! What other cool tricks can you find?

I think red is reserved for mods acting as such, so you should probably use another color.

[Ruck]

Could Haley laying out the situation for Crystal to provoke her into attacking Bozzok be an example of #33?

[Darth Paul]

It seems to me that Haley's fight with the Thieves' Guild fits

18) Defeat the enemy by capturing their chief
When the enemy are allied to the commander only by money, superstition, or threats, target the leader.

Neutralizing Bozzok as their leader put the rest of the Guild in a position where they could make a deal (even though Celia actually offered the deal, it's highly doubtful if Bozzok would have accepted anything less than Haley's death). Bozzok ruled mostly through terrorizing the rest of the Guild, once he was out of action his revenge motivation no longer controlled the rest.

[bt109]

Could Haley laying out the situation for Crystal to provoke her into attacking Bozzok be an example of #33?

She really does chain a bunch together right there, doesn't she? Okay, I'm rearranging that to include #33, but I'm thinking that may also be the best Chain Stratagem yet.

It seems to me that Haley's fight with the Thieves' Guild fits



Neutralizing Bozzok as their leader put the rest of the Guild in a position where they could make a deal (even though Celia actually offered the deal, it's highly doubtful if Bozzok would have accepted anything less than Haley's death). Bozzok ruled mostly through terrorizing the rest of the Guild, once he was out of action his revenge motivation no longer controlled the rest.

Wow, that one was a blinding flash of the obvious. Thanks!

[DaOldeWolf]

I am not 100% I understood number #32 correctly but wouldnt the newest comic be an example of it?

[Fyraltari]

I am not 100% I understood number #32 correctly but wouldnt the newest comic be an example of it?

According to legend, during the War of the Three Kingdoms (on the top of my head, feel free to correct me), one general of great fame found himself protecting a city with a severely deplete contigent. An enemy army vastly outnumbering his came to the city. Knowing that he couldn't beat them in a fight, the general ordered his few men to hide after opening wide the main gates of the city. When the enemy scouts reached the city, they found him sitting atop of the gates leading to an apparently empty city, playing the flute with no apparent concern. Fearing a trap the the army's leader decided not to attack the town. And before he changed his mind the general received reinforcements that made the city impregnable when it was ripe for the taking before.

That's stratagem #32. Overplay your weakness but act confidently so that the enemy will suspect a trap where there is none.

[georgie_leech]

According to legend, during the War of the Three Kingdoms (on the top of my head, feel free to correct me), one general of great fame found himself protecting a city with a severely deplete contigent. An enemy army vastly outnumbering his came to the city. Knowing that he couldn't beat them in a fight, the general ordered his few men to hide after opening wide the main gates of the city. When the enemy scouts reached the city, they found him sitting atop of the gates leading to an apparently empty city, playing the flute with no apparent concern. Fearing a trap the the army's leader decided not to attack the town. And before he changed his mind the general received reinforcements that made the city impregnable when it was ripe for the taking before.

That's stratagem #32. Overplay your weakness but act confidently so that the enemy will suspect a trap where there is none.

See Also: Blue MtG players with two mana left and at least one card in hand

[Brother Oni]

According to legend, during the War of the Three Kingdoms (on the top of my head, feel free to correct me), one general of great fame found himself protecting a city with a severely deplete contigent. An enemy army vastly outnumbering his came to the city. Knowing that he couldn't beat them in a fight, the general ordered his few men to hide after opening wide the main gates of the city. When the enemy scouts reached the city, they found him sitting atop of the gates leading to an apparently empty city, playing the flute with no apparent concern. Fearing a trap the the army's leader decided not to attack the town. And before he changed his mind the general received reinforcements that made the city impregnable when it was ripe for the taking before.

That's stratagem #32. Overplay your weakness but act confidently so that the enemy will suspect a trap where there is none.

That's Zhuge Liang pulling fast one over Sima Yi. Zhuge Liang had built up such a reputation for being a sneaky so-and-so, that when he died prematurely on a campaign, he had left instructions to use his corpse as a rearguard action to let the rest of the army escape successfully (which again worked on the now overcautious Sima Yi).

[bt109]

I am not 100% I understood number #32 correctly but wouldnt the newest comic be an example of it?

I can see why you'd think that, but as others have pointed out, this stratagem isn't so much calling someone's bluff, as making as specific kind of bluff of your own, pretending that everything is normal so that the enemy will anticipate a trap and withdraw.

In other news, I've improved the formatting and added some "other teachers" with Xykon and Elan teaching certain things. Everyone is welcome to recommend stratagems used by anyone now.