Why the hate on hexblade?

[Trask]

No, I'm blaming Hexblade for being an outlier on (specifically) level one abilities granted. It limits creativity and diversity to have a "best" option, because there is an opportunity cost to taking any other route. I would rather not dip Hex, but would be effectively gimping myself to not do so. I just wish it were more in line with other classes (ie requiring two or three levels).

Right on the mark. Mechanics need boundaries and limitations if theyre going to co-exist peacefully with creativity, and in general its unhealthy for the game to have one option that overshadows all the rest.

[Sorinth]

You're still not understanding.

Obviously having medium armour proficiency in general is not overpowered. Fighters are not overpowered for example.

Having 1 patron who has it though makes that patron overpowered.

Do you see the difference?

Take a Diviner Wizard (or whatever) and also give them medium armour proficiency and shields. Would that be overpowered to you? Who wouldn't want to take that subclass?

I don't think people should really use the term overpowered if the end result of the character isn't overpowered. For example if sticking to PHB only it would be nonsensical to claim the Hunter Ranger is overpowered simply because the only other option was the terrible Beastmaster class. Hunter Ranger was still underpowered because the whole Ranger class was underpowered.

But even if we wanted to just compare Patrons I don't see Hexblade as the best. If you want to go Pact of the Blade and melee then yeah Hexblade is hands down the best choice. But if you wanted to be a blaster then Hexblade although decent is not really any better then some of the others.

For the non-melee Hexblade they have a relatively weak spell list. The 6th level ability is not particularly good in practice and unlike the other Patrons doesn't recharge on short rest. The 10th level ability can be great against boss encounters, but again if you aren't in melee it's not going to do much. The 14th level ability is strong but compared to the other 14th level abilities I'm not sure I would rank it that high.

[Man_Over_Game]

Question for those who hate Hexblade: Is one level of Hexblade stronger than one level of Cleric?

I'd say No. It's not.

So why do we hate it?

Because it changes the mechanics of the entire build by adding multiple features that benefit anyone, and it does so without any kind of theme or investment:

• Curse a target to take extra damage from your damage rolls as a Bonus Action, no Concentration.
• Converts your attack stat into Charisma.
• Offers Medium Armor, Martial Weapons and shields.
• Grants** the Shield spell.
• Grants a Short Rest spell slot.

Tell me, who is that bad on? It's not overpowered, but there's no niche, no mechanical or thematic concept. None of it is orienting you towards a single goal other than "Kill sh**".
Sure, Shillelagh is in a similar boat, but at least that costs a feat or a level, grants far few benefits in those classes (like Druids), and requires a quarterstaff or club. It's a lot more restrictive, and those restrictions maintain a theme for the playstyle.
A similar mechanic that'd change how your attributes are used might be seen in Unarmored Defense, Bladesinging, or a subclass feature, but those all require additional investments that contribute to the narrative of the character. Battlemaster is incredibly thematic despite having fairly universally effective mechanics, and yet those mechanics tell a story.

For the Hexblade, it doesn't matter how powerful it is to use Charisma for your weapon. It feels lazy. Using it to enrich your character is a lazy design. Hell, going as a sole Hexblade is a lot more interesting than the players who make lazy builds that pick 1 level into Hexblade just because they want to be lazy about how they level up their character.

Interesting characters have weaknesses. Hexblade dips have none, except in the noncombat department, which is like saying they're the best at being boring and the worst at being interesting.

[Christew]

For the non-melee Hexblade they have a relatively weak spell list. The 6th level ability is not particularly good in practice and unlike the other Patrons doesn't recharge on short rest. The 10th level ability can be great against boss encounters, but again if you aren't in melee it's not going to do much. The 14th level ability is strong but compared to the other 14th level abilities I'm not sure I would rank it that high.

Yeah, I've always found non-melee Barbarians to be pretty lackluster too

[Zetakya]

Monk. If I had to play a dwarven monk, I would definitely not go mountain...

Rogue gains very little - even a strength rogue would find the weapon profs useless. Not that hill provides much better if you just had to go dwarf... but an extra hit point vs less reliance on Dex to AC... mitigation vs avoidance... subjective call...

Ranger... gains little from mountain. Not as bad as monk, but almost... +2 Str vs +1 Wis... all things being equal, I'd probably go Hill (the HP boost is also as welcome as the Con boost).

Cleric and Druid, neither need Strength over Wisdom, for sure... so...

5/12 classes would prefer Hill to Mountain... though I definitely agree with you on Int and Cha based casters, the opposite is true!

Monk I will grant you; the clash between their class abilities and Dwarven Armour Training is pretty major. You do still get bonuses to Athletics from STR, and the CON is never wasted.

Rogue and Ranger... I feel you've not played a Dwarven Gloomstalker with throwing weapons. The Dwarven Thrower is an iconic magic item for a reason, here.

Cleric... Hello, Heavy Armour? OK, it's subclass/build dependent, but so are lots of things. Martially inclined Clerics (War, Forge) work well as a Dwarf.

Druid... ok, granted.

So I would say there's 2/12 classes where the Mountain Dwarf really doesn't give the class much. The others all have builds and subclasses that work well with MD.

[Sception]

To be fair, hexblade does NOT advance normal spellcasting, as regular caster levels and pact caster levels do not stack - not for spells known (no caster levels stack for spells known), and not for spell slots, either.

Not saying hexblade isn't excessively front loaded, it is. And it adds to the problem of the already too front loaded warlock class and the problem that cantrips in general and eldritch blast in particular maybe should be scaling with class level - or at least caster level (ie sorcerer levels and warlock levels wouldn't stack) - and not automatically with character level. By comparison, warrior class levels explicitly do not stack for their equivalent 'at will' damage boosts, including extra attack.

It really doesn't break the game imo - dipping warlock isn't going to bring cha gishes up to the level of full casters - but I won't pretend it isn't a problem.

That said, if you're going to house rule by banning it, you should consider instead the less harsh house rule of taking hex warrior out of hexblade and adding it to pact of the blade. Don't make it an invocation they have to take, pact of the blade is already overburdened with an excess of invocation taxes.

Such a house rule still keeps the hexblade patron for those who like it thematically, and removes some of the narrative pressure to have to go into blade boon if they'd rather play a more casty type warlock. For casty warlocks who don't care about their patron, it delays the medium armor and shield proficiencies and tacks a significant cost onto them, since they're giving up a very good familiar or a number of useful cantrips, both of which a traditional casty warlock cares about, plus the boon specific invocations for blade boon are all weapon oriented and don't help casty locks.

Multiclassing warlocks for cha melee attacks would still be possible, and a tempting option for paladins and melee bards, but 3 levels would constitute a significant commitment for the exchange. Besides, taking three levels of warlock for cha melee attacks was already possible via pact of the tome for cha-based Shillelagh, and if a player is doing that anyway you'd at least want them to take the more thematically appropriate blade boon, right?

Plus, bladelocks of other patrons, from fiendish warriors to fey knights, would suddenly become a lot more functional and attractive. Particularly for player who don't want to deal with the hassle of multiclassing, but it also offers narrative dividends for the dippers, too, as anyone who was still willing to go three levels into warlock to get hex warrior could choose whatever patron they wanted. Maybe that's still hexblade for some Elrik type flavor, but maybe it's fiend for a hell knight conqueror or fey for bardic fey prince sort of build.


Because, honestly? I actually kind of like hex warrior as a fix for pact of the blade. It's nowhere near what the *true* fix would be, which is making hexblade it's own separate 'half pact caster' martial class with the same range of patrons as the regular casty warlock, less casting, different invocations, and class features, HP, and proficiencies built for fighting rather than spell slinging, but as far as quick fix patches go it mostly works. It just needed to be applied *to* pact of the blade, not on top of the first level features of a random patron.


Many of the other problems people have with hexblade aren't fixed by removing hexblade. Even without it, warlock is *still* far too attractive a dip for bard, paladin, or sorcerer. Fixing that, though, would require more extreme corrections, like making eldritch blast a class feature that scales with warlock level instead of a cantrip that scales with character level, or preventing pact magic slots from being used for spells and class features of other classes. And at that point you'd be raining pretty hard on some builds that really aren't game breaking, and should maybe be giving back some other extra stuff in return, and now you're just completely rewriting one if not several classes from the ground up.

If you're not going to do that, then you aren't fixing the real underlying problems, and if you aren't actually fixing the problems, then why rain on someone's parade by banning the subclass in the first place? You're cutting into a player's enjoyment without getting a real advantage out of it.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I don't think Hexblade breaks anything.

But I do think it solves a minor problem while making a major problem worse.

The minor problem it solves is that players did not like bladelocks. Right or wrong, the prevailing sentiment was that single class melee warlocks were not worthwhile. Enter the hexblade. Single class melee warlocks are better than ever.

The major problem it exacerbated is that warlock was favored as a dip or multiclass. Right or wrong, the prevailing sentiment was that warlock was worthwhile as icing on another class, or was worthwhile with icing from some other class, but not a full time thing. Enter the hexblade. Warlock makes a better dip than ever, and because the new stuff kicks in early, there is less reason than ever to stick with the class.

Because of the major problem, the fix to the minor problem is mostly irrelevant in a game that allows MC, leaving us with fluff that many players find distasteful, rightly or wrongly, with more warlock MC than ever and less patron diversity.

A real fix, imo, would have slightly restructured the class as a whole to make it more attractive as a full-time career.

Anyway,

Ken

[ad_hoc]

Rogue and Ranger... I feel you've not played a Dwarven Gloomstalker with throwing weapons. The Dwarven Thrower is an iconic magic item for a reason, here.

The thrown property is not the same as the ranged property.

Daggers are the only thrown weapons that can sneak attack because they are also finesse.

Remember, it isn't a ranged attack that makes it work, it's a ranged weapon. Otherwise ranged spell attacks would work too.

[JackPhoenix]

The thrown property is not the same as the ranged property.

Daggers are the only thrown weapons that can sneak attack because they are also finesse.

Remember, it isn't a ranged attack that makes it work, it's a ranged weapon. Otherwise ranged spell attacks would work too.

Also darts, which are both ranged and finesse (which means it's the only PHB ranged weapon that can be used with Str). But besides weight and cost, there's no difference between using a dart and a dagger.

[Zetakya]

The thrown property is not the same as the ranged property.

Daggers are the only thrown weapons that can sneak attack because they are also finesse.

Remember, it isn't a ranged attack that makes it work, it's a ranged weapon. Otherwise ranged spell attacks would work too.

Darts.

And you don't have to use the Finesse property, it just has to have it. You can (e.g) dual-wield with a main gauche offhand to Sneak Attack with (a favourite of the Swashbuckler with Dual-wielder feat), or hit and run with a Dart throwing Rogue.

I stand by the Mountain Dwarf Gloomstalker Hammer Thrower as the king of throwing stuff at your head, though.

[Segev]

Also darts, which are both ranged and finesse (which means it's the only PHB ranged weapon that can be used with Str). But besides weight and cost, there's no difference between using a dart and a dagger.

I feel it important to point out the caveat "when thrown." Darts are improvised weapons when used in melee.

[ad_hoc]

Darts.

And you don't have to use the Finesse property, it just has to have it. You can (e.g) dual-wield with a main gauche offhand to Sneak Attack with (a favourite of the Swashbuckler with Dual-wielder feat), or hit and run with a Dart throwing Rogue.

I stand by the Mountain Dwarf Gloomstalker Hammer Thrower as the king of throwing stuff at your head, though.

Darts are ranged weapons. I technically made a mistake by not being careful with my wording but the point is there and should be obvious.

The only weapon that is not a ranged weapon that can be used to make a ranged sneak attack is the dagger.

I don't understand your point about a main-gauche (and really just say dagger, that's what it is in 5e unless you're meaning something else. In which case just use whatever term is used in 5e).

A weapon can be used with strength to sneak attack but I don't see what that has to do with our conversation. But sure, that's a thing. Is that what you're talking about?

[jmartkdr]

The most damning evidence that hexblades are overpowered is circumstantial: ever since Hexblade was introduced, the conversation on optimization of warlocks or gishes basically stopped, since the answer is clear "be a hexblade."

Used as intended (single-classed, melee focused), the hexblade is fine. Good but not overshadowing anyone, and it really delivers on the dark-warrior fantasy. My personal favorite class to play (I really like how the low number fo spell slots makes tactical decisions interesting.) But I assume I'm going to have to promise not to multiclass to keep the dm form panicking.

But if you break those assumptions - well, others have gone over that in detail. It's too good of a dip, and blast-hexblades are pretty much just better at blasting than other patrons. That'd be like a wizard subclass that's just better at spells than other wizards.

The fluff is not actually good, but it's close enough to some really cool stuff that most people seem to be able to make it work. Still, it'd be Oberoni fallacy to say that means the fluff is actually good.

I have a huge list of would-have-been-betters for hexblades, not the smallest of which is making it a whole new class, but I find that if people are playing in good faith the hate is overblown.

[Zetakya]

Darts are ranged weapons. I technically made a mistake by not being careful with my wording but the point is there and should be obvious.

The only weapon that is not a ranged weapon that can be used to make a ranged sneak attack is the dagger.

I don't understand your point about a main-gauche (and really just say dagger, that's what it is in 5e unless you're meaning something else. In which case just use whatever term is used in 5e).

A weapon can be used with strength to sneak attack but I don't see what that has to do with our conversation. But sure, that's a thing. Is that what you're talking about?

A Main Gauche is a weapon specifically wielded in the off hand with a longer sword in the main hand; it's there as a surprise weapon or a deterrent against someone closing within the reach of your main hand weapon in a sword duel. It's mostly a thing in Iberian swordsmanship.

The point in a D&D context is that you only get to make one Sneak Attack per round anyway, so there's no disadvantage to doing so with an off-hand weapon while wielding a higher damage weapon in your main hand.

Anyway, We're derailing here.

[ShuckedAeons]

That'd be like a wizard subclass that's just better at spells than other wizards.

Sooo every wizard subclass :^)

Jokes aside you have succinctly struck the proverbial nail on the head.

Compared to other patrons it kills thing better.

As a dip it’s too front loaded from 1 level.

[Segev]

A Main Gauche is a weapon specifically wielded in the off hand with a longer sword in the main hand; it's there as a surprise weapon or a deterrent against someone closing within the reach of your main hand weapon in a sword duel. It's mostly a thing in Iberian swordsmanship.

The point in a D&D context is that you only get to make one Sneak Attack per round anyway, so there's no disadvantage to doing so with an off-hand weapon while wielding a higher damage weapon in your main hand.

Anyway, We're derailing here.

If your on-hand weapon is not a finesse weapon and does more than a finesse weapon could (I believe rapiers are the highst-damage finesse weapons, at 1d8), you might benefit from the higher-damage on-hand weapon and the sneak attack off-hand weapon.

[ad_hoc]

A Main Gauche is a weapon specifically wielded in the off hand with a longer sword in the main hand; it's there as a surprise weapon or a deterrent against someone closing within the reach of your main hand weapon in a sword duel. It's mostly a thing in Iberian swordsmanship.

I get it but what is it in D&D?

Just say dagger if you mean dagger.

The point in a D&D context is that you only get to make one Sneak Attack per round anyway, so there's no disadvantage to doing so with an off-hand weapon while wielding a higher damage weapon in your main hand.

How does that have anything to do with anything we've been discussing?

[Sorinth]

Yeah, I've always found non-melee Barbarians to be pretty lackluster too

Really? You think Warlock should be on the front line engaged in melee most of the time?

[Christew]

Really? You think Warlock should be on the front line engaged in melee most of the time?

Warlock in general? No, that's silly. Hexblade with the almost requisite pact of the blade? Yes, it is designed primarily for melee (albeit as a striker instead of a tank).

If it wasn't clear, I was (tongue firmly in cheek) attempting to point out that judging a melee focused class or subclass on how they perform outside of melee combat is a bit wonky.

[Sorinth]

Warlock in general? No, that's silly. Hexblade with the almost requisite pact of the blade? Yes, it is designed primarily for melee (albeit as a striker instead of a tank).

If it wasn't clear, I was (tongue firmly in cheek) attempting to point out that judging a melee focused class or subclass on how they perform outside of melee combat is a bit wonky.

Sure but the argument by many here is that Hexblade is so much better then the other patron's regardless of whether you want to be in melee combat or not. Hexblade is not only the better melee Patron, but it's also supposedly better if you want to be a blaster or any other type of Warlock.

The idea that a class has one Archetype that is more focused on melee then the others isn't unique. It's pretty standard. But with Warlock it's some sort of criminal offence that one Archetype is focused on melee.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The idea that a class has one Archetype that is more focused on melee then the others isn't unique. It's pretty standard. But with Warlock it's some sort of criminal offence that one Archetype is focused on melee.

The issue, from my point of view, is that Hexblade isn't actually a melee focused archetype. It's the best one, that's for sure, but all of it's features (minus hex warrior without improved pact weapon) also work with ranged or spells. They're great abilities for a spellcaster, you're not required to be melee and don't lose much by choosing not to use a weapon at all.

I am off the opinion that most if not all of the features should have a clause relying on weilding the weapon you have bonded with hex warrior. The only downside to this that I can think of off the top of my head is that it hurts shield wielding Hexblade who can't take feats.

[jas61292]

The idea that a class has one Archetype that is more focused on melee then the others isn't unique. It's pretty standard. But with Warlock it's some sort of criminal offence that one Archetype is focused on melee.

The issue here is twofold.

First off, as mentioned by many, Hexblade isn't just the melee archetype. It is the "most powerful warlock" archetype, being better than almost any other archetype at far more than just melee combat.

Secondly, in other classes where a caster gets a melee archetype, the subclass makes them halfway competent in melee so that they don't feel like they have to run away. They get defensive buffs and an extra attack, but rarely any powerful offensive features. Quite simply, those subclasses don't let them go toe to toe with a Fighter or Barbarian as a melee combatant. Which is good, because they are still a primary caster. Hexblade does. That's the issue.

[TheUser]

Didn't realize how much it makes sense to remove shield from hexblade. I am not sure how I would scale down Hexblade's curse to only scale with Warlock levels but it also sounds appropriate. +1 for Ludic. Makes the Hexblade pretty much spot on balance wise without harming core hexblades.

[Sorinth]

The issue, from my point of view, is that Hexblade isn't actually a melee focused archetype. It's the best one, that's for sure, but all of it's features (minus hex warrior without improved pact weapon) also work with ranged or spells. They're great abilities for a spellcaster, you're not required to be melee and don't lose much by choosing not to use a weapon at all.

I am off the opinion that most if not all of the features should have a clause relying on weilding the weapon you have bonded with hex warrior. The only downside to this that I can think of off the top of my head is that it hurts shield wielding Hexblade who can't take feats.

The issue here is twofold.

First off, as mentioned by many, Hexblade isn't just the melee archetype. It is the "most powerful warlock" archetype, being better than almost any other archetype at far more than just melee combat.

Secondly, in other classes where a caster gets a melee archetype, the subclass makes them halfway competent in melee so that they don't feel like they have to run away. They get defensive buffs and an extra attack, but rarely any powerful offensive features. Quite simply, those subclasses don't let them go toe to toe with a Fighter or Barbarian as a melee combatant. Which is good, because they are still a primary caster. Hexblade does. That's the issue.

Hexblade works as a non melee, but it's not the most powerful non-melee Warlock. I'd take pretty much ever other Patron except Fiend over Hexblade if I planned on being at the back blasting things with EB.

Hexblade going melee is no where close to the Fighter or Barbarian.

[Chaos Jackal]

Hexblade works as a non melee, but it's not the most powerful non-melee Warlock. I'd take pretty much ever other Patron except Fiend over Hexblade if I planned on being at the back blasting things with EB.

While I'm not of the opinion that Hexblade is the best Patron, I am of the opinion that it's the best damaging one (melee or ranged). I'd understand taking another Patron if you were in the back doing more than blasting things with EB, but if you're mostly blasting things with EB, how exactly does any other Patron do it better than Hexblade?

Again, I don't believe that Hexblade is a blanket check to everything, but at least as far as damage is concerned, be it mundane or blasting, I'm not sure how any of the other Patrons would help you more.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hexblade works as a non melee, but it's not the most powerful non-melee Warlock. I'd take pretty much ever other Patron except Fiend over Hexblade if I planned on being at the back blasting things with EB.

Hexblade going melee is no where close to the Fighter or Barbarian.

Is there a reason you would exclude the Fiend? Because that's the one warlock subclasses I would consider competitive in survivability (dark ones blessing is very good) and blasting thanks to a very solid expanded spell list.

I'm genuinely confused here, to my knowledge Fiend was understood by many to be unequivocally the best blasting Warlock option prior to Hexblade, it's not dropping multiple positions just because Hexblade competes with it.

[loki_ragnarock]

I feel it important to point out the caveat "when thrown." Darts are improvised weapons when used in melee.

They uniquely aren't.

As the only ranged weapon without the ammunition property, you can use them to make melee attacks without any penalties whatsoever.


Did a quick dive on these rules in another thread, and I was under the same mistaken impression until I sat down and read through all the relevant tags for darts. Unless there was later errata.

They are quite marvelous little exceptions.

[Sorinth]

While I'm not of the opinion that Hexblade is the best Patron, I am of the opinion that it's the best damaging one (melee or ranged). I'd understand taking another Patron if you were in the back doing more than blasting things with EB, but if you're mostly blasting things with EB, how exactly does any other Patron do it better than Hexblade?

Again, I don't believe that Hexblade is a blanket check to everything, but at least as far as damage is concerned, be it mundane or blasting, I'm not sure how any of the other Patrons would help you more.

In terms of damage as a blaster yeah they are all pretty much the same, maybe Celestial gets a slight edge since they can boost damage of some non-EB spells. It's more things like Fey Presence + Misty Escape is much better for someone at the back who wants to stay out of melee then medium armor + shields is. Celestial's healing is quite useful for the party and offers versatility.

Is there a reason you would exclude the Fiend? Because that's the one warlock subclasses I would consider competitive in survivability (dark ones blessing is very good) and blasting thanks to a very solid expanded spell list.

I'm genuinely confused here, to my knowledge Fiend was understood by many to be unequivocally the best blasting Warlock option prior to Hexblade, it's not dropping multiple positions just because Hexblade competes with it.

Fiend's blasting comes from the expanded spell list, so if you want to throw Fireballs then you have to go Fiend and many people consider Fireball the #1 blasting spell. However since you are limited in spell slots I tend to find it better to not use my spell slots of things like Fireball. But this is probably dependent on adventure day length, if you can short rest when you run out of spell slots then I can see Fiend being a prime blaster, but that hasn't been my experience.

[Segev]

The issue, from my point of view, is that Hexblade isn't actually a melee focused archetype. It's the best one, that's for sure, but all of it's features (minus hex warrior without improved pact weapon) also work with ranged or spells. They're great abilities for a spellcaster, you're not required to be melee and don't lose much by choosing not to use a weapon at all.

I am off the opinion that most if not all of the features should have a clause relying on weilding the weapon you have bonded with hex warrior. The only downside to this that I can think of off the top of my head is that it hurts shield wielding Hexblade who can't take feats.

This is why my "fix" for it starts by making it not a Patron, adds shilelagh to the Warlock spell list (so the level 1 would-be Pact of the Blade Warlock can be a competent meleeist), and then builds a first level spell that scales by adding more and more features from Hexblade's Curse as you up the spell slot expended and adds more options via Invocations. It also has one Invocation that gives armor access. I'm not thrilled with all the design choices; reading this thread, I might go make a second pass at it. Create a unique Cantrip instead of just giving them shilelagh, though I'll need to make sure it's not "just better," and maybe remove the armor invocation in favor of doing something to let a Pact of the Blade Warlock either summon armor or get 10+Dex+Cha as their armor formula. At level 2, mage armor is actually pretty decent AC, and they can trade out Invocations every level. Still leaves them a bit wanting at level 1 for melee defensiveness.

[patchyman]

There is more to the Patron besides 1st level abilities. Hexblade is without a doubt the most front loaded of all the Patrons, but claiming Hexblade is so much better then the other Patrons AINEC is just not true. If Medium Armor and Shield were that amazing then why wasn't Mountain Dwarf considered the most OP race?

It feels like you are being disingenuous here. Mountain Dwarf gets access to Medium Armor (not Shields) and access to Dwarven Weapon Training. They also get a +2 to Str and a +2 to Con.

If you took the race for the +2 to Str and Con, chances are you already had access to Medium Armor and Dwarven Weapons.

If you took the race for the Medium Armor (not Shields) and Dwarven Weapon Training, chances are you started with a 14 in your main stat.